/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11915466]

Why is vampire/werewolf/some type of supernatural badboy male/regular quirky shy human girl romance books so popular? What exactly is the appeal about them?
Are they well written?

[Anonymous No.11915474]

>>11915466
I can't complain. I would probably love them if they were genderswapped

[Anonymous No.11915476]

>>11915474
Have you ever heard of anime?

[Anonymous No.11915490]

>>11915466
Normal humans are supposed to find humans of the opposite sex and exemplify the opposite gender attractive. Weird people end up twisting this basic drive in all sorts of knots. It’s why incel shut in type dudes have bizarre ass fetishes. Weird shut in girls are the same: they like to live in fantasy worlds because reality rejects them and they reject it; they feel weird about normal sexuality because guys have never given them proper sexual attention or they feel awkward when they do get such attention; so they fulfill their deep human desires for a strong, genetically fit mate by imagining a monster who is powerful and immortal (and usually rich) who essentially goes wild for them like none of the real boys ever did, and it’s all oblique enough that they never have to really fave anything about their sexuality head on

[Anonymous No.11915501]

>>11915466
they appeal to female primal fantasies.
/thread

[Anonymous No.11915517]

>>11915466
There's no mystery here. It's the stereotypical female narcissistic fantasy of being valued, protected, fought over 'just because', allowed to exist in a state of unchanging passivity and dependency without having to pay the price.
The corresponding male narcissistic fantasy is more active, with the self-insert being smarter, stronger, better than their peers, always having an ace up their sleeve, beating out the competition, and being universally (excluding some mean, ignorant bullies who are just jealous of their success) hailed as a hero.

[Anonymous No.11915523]

They're porn for women. You expect a good plot? Twilight and 50 Shades are exemplars of that whole genre.

It's always the same and you can really start to see the internal workings of women and their sick fantasies if you read enough of them, because they usually have a similar structure or cliches through most of them.

They want a Christian Grey or a "bad boy" type of male character, who are always very dominant and treat them like their prized trophy or property. Something for the male NPC to objectify and try to win over through some trial or shit test. The men usually are pretty powerful, like they have millions of dollars to blow on her or have such a high status, that others bow to their whims, or they have such a cunning wit they circle around all his opponents with ease to win her and talk her wet panties off.

Sometimes it has a power fantasy element, like using the male as a proxy for violence or other force. Sometimes it's about getting dicked on by multiple men because she's just that lusted after.

But make no mistake, this is a genre of literature by women, for women. You can try to weave a good story, but it's not the actual focus. It's always about the "romance" or dimorphic power plays. Even The Handmaid's Tale, which has been lauded as dystopian thriller about a world of women without rights, is nothing but a shitty political 50 Shades tale where a dumb woman cucks her older impotent owner for a rebellious younger Chad Thundercock and have his baby instead.

So never go into this shit expecting anything that will wow you. It's all about fapping and emotional masturbation.

[Anonymous No.11915542]

>>11915523
Bit of a pretentious, dramatic psychoanalysis of the genre.
No shit it’s primarily meant for young girls and women. Some of them can have decent plots, not all of them are badly written. Men have plenty of their own “sick fantasies” as well, there couldn’t be submissive women without their equally perverse dominant male counterparts who are just as into that dynamic.
Also, watch some anime, or read manga. 90% of it is directed and written by dudes, and there are countless bizarre, twisted, BDSM femdom shit, or other gross unusual fetish stuff.

[Anonymous No.11915557]

>>11915542
Women do need to have their faces shoved into a mirror sometimes. :^)

[Anonymous No.11915565]

>>11915542
>Also, watch some anime, or read manga. 90% of it is directed and written by dudes, and there are countless bizarre, twisted, BDSM femdom shit, or other gross unusual fetish stuff.
femdom, sexual slavery, unbirthing, vore, etc. are all variations on the same theme of uroboric return-to-the-motherly-womb-of-nonduality self-dissolution, and they aren't a healthy sexual fantasy in men any more than in women.

[Anonymous No.11915580]

>>11915466
Because supernatural males are physically removed enough from normal men that women do not associate them with all the mundane failings they see in their penis-bearing counterparts. It also allows the shy human girl to project low self-esteem on this male character because he is an outsider as she perceives herself to be. The regular shy girl cannot conceive that those around her would ever like her, so she must attach herself emotionally to someone who does not and cannot exist; this fictional man cannot reject her. I posit that the psychology that drives women to read supernatural romance novels is not so dissimilar from that which propels men to consume necrophilic materials.

[Anonymous No.11915594]

>>11915565
>a fetish that hinges on the unattainability of its object constitutes a return to the womb
I'd also be interested in your explanation of the "uroboric" character of your theorized fantasy.

[Anonymous No.11915689]

>>11915594
Just as the urobos devours itself infinitely, fantasies which consist in the self-insert being turned into an entity without agency existing only as 'food' and 'excrement', metaphorically or literally, collapse the relationship of male/female into the dominant endlessly referring back to itself with the submissive as proxy, without any potential for qualitative change.
This is also why these kinds of relationships are portrayed psychologically only in showing the process of submission, and have nowhere left to go when it is complete: The whole point of the fantasy is that at the end there is no intersubjective tension, no 'spiritual' aspect to sexuality anymore, it's reduced to a mechanical hell of pleasure.

I'm not sure how the fact of the unattainability of this state for an adult contradicts the notion that the desire driving them is analogous to a return to the womb. All dysfunctional fantasies are impossible fantasies, that's what makes them pathological.

[Anonymous No.11915696]

Look, werewolves are hot. Burly, hairy, beastial men are hot. It's normal to fantasize about a hot werewolf taking you for a ride like you're the last piece of meat in the world. Even if you're a guy. And the werewolf is a guy. It's normal

[Anonymous No.11915718]

>>11915696
it can be a 'healthy' way of compensating for certain insecurities and shortcomings, just like screaming into a pillow can help you relieve stress, but you're better off outgrowing it sooner rather than later because the real life equivalent of the fantasy casts a pretty long shadow.

[Anonymous No.11915722]

They haven't been popular in years lad

[Anonymous No.11915766]

>>11915466
why do you care? if you read something like you are describing you should just keep playing videogames

[Anonymous No.11915797]

>>11915689
>being turned into an entity without agency
Now this is where we differ. While I also feel a bit uncomfortable about the self-effacing aspect of some of these fantasies, I don't think that it is a necessary part of the submissive role. In Venus in Furs Severin's calling is that of a martyr, and surely one shouldn't assume that a martyr just suffers mechanically. This is where what I called unattainability of the object comes into play. The object of obsession is held at a distance, the sexual encounter is ritualized. Beauty is what cannot be attained, but of course this only increases the longing. The struggle of pitting the martyr's devotion against an equally strong hostile force, resulting in a state of awe, would constitute the spiritual aspect of the fantasy. Admittedly, it is a paradoxical situation, where facing the greatest possible despair the self is transcended and thus through devotion communion is sought, but the object that one wants to feel close to also enforces the ritual, i.e. the boundaries. There's the aspect of the annihilation of the self, but I think the important part is that the martyr is kept between the two poles and not reduced to something without a will. If there is no devotion, no struggle, submission is meaningless.
If that is not the case, I now understand and support your metaphor of the ouroboros.
>without any potential for qualitative change
What kind of change do you have in mind? Does a healthy relationship not necessarily arrive at some kind of power balance, an equilibrium state made to persist? If you're referring to erotic games alternatingly claiming and giving up power, do you think that they don't amount to a dysfunctional fantasy because there is no clear winner?

When I'm talking about unattainability I'm not referring to the fantasy itself, but to the status of its object in the context of the fantasy. I also don't think that only impossible fantasies can be pathological.

[Anonymous No.11915813]

>>11915766

[Anonymous No.11915857]

>>11915813
but I’m saying those novels are shit though

[Anonymous No.11915875]

>>11915466
This is like asking, “why do women subconsciously desire to be brutally gangraped?”

It’s just something we’ll never really know

[Anonymous No.11915876]

>>11915466
Wish fulfillment for women.

[Anonymous No.11915909]

>>11915797
Yeah, I think we're in agreement.
Martyrdom is laying down ones finite life because one believes that the infinite life of the divine is more important, one does 'what is right' - it's an expression of personal freedom, choosing the devine regardless of personal cost. Obviously whether that line of reasoning makes sense to you depends on how you conceptualize the divine and whether you think it exists. A good many modern people would argue that a martyrs desire to offer themselves up for 'god' is pathological, while they swallow the idea of dying for 'justice' just fine.
The fetish of surrendering to another finite being is closer to the ending of 1984, one abandons 'truth', 'selfhood', that aspect of oneself which is divine and 'loves' big brother by becoming his slave.
A healthy relationship consists in an equilibrium, sure, but that equilibrium is characterized by facilitating an ongoing dialogue in which the lovers find the divine in themselves through each other, it's a platform for the process of individuation. In old-time-y language, the lovers are united in god, they form a trinity with the divine, and their bond is sacred because of that connection.

I'd agree with the idea that all impossible fantasies are pathological, but not all pathological fantasies are impossible, if we were looking at possible/impossible in a purely pragmatic sense (it's possible to burn down the rain forest or kill your wife and children, but that doesn't make it reasonable), but what I mean is that if ones actions are 'opposed to the divine order of being' the desire driving one to do these things is necessarily a phantom desire, something that ultimately refers to nothing. For instance, getting rich is a goal that can pragmatically be attained, but it's a barrel without a bottom psychologically if it isn't contextualized properly, but your primary desire.

[Anonymous No.11915920]

>>11915857
not the guy you're replying to, but you're also doing a very feminine "UMMM WHO ARE YOU TO CRITICIZE ANYONE? CAN'T EVERYONE JUST BE NICE? CRITICISM IS MEAN! DON'T BE A MEANIE! YOU'RE A PATHETIC LOSER IF YOU'RE A MEANIE, I BET YOU NEVER LEAVE YOUR MOM'S BASEMENT! YOU'RE NOT EVEN CHAD!" style of underhanded bitter menstrual whinging

like, you take issue with something for no real reason, but instead of just taking genuine issue with it and explaining yourself, you try to control the other person by implying they aren't popular, because you're a woman and your brain perceives reality itself as one giant high school. it's a very distinctly feminine behavior, women do it a lot on 4chan and it's one of the reasons they just don't seem to "fit in" very well.

[Anonymous No.11915961]

>>11915909
>they form a trinity with the divine, and their bond is sacred because of that connection
I agree, and I was trying to argue that the communion with the divine contained in the lover can take an extreme form in which one of the partners assumes the role of the martyr and the other not God of course, since that would be heretical, but some sort of a priestly function. This is what separates Sacher-Masochs writings from Sade, who is an extreme materialist and as such has no choice but to reduce the submissive to an object and the dominant to unbridled nature, which I find quite repulsive.
Sacher-Masoch also emphasizes that there has to be a bond between lovers for the relationship to be complete. Dragomira ritually offering souls to the divine cannot be seen as a lover, the ritual is empty without any connection between the souls of its participants.

[Anonymous No.11916006]

>>11915523
Should I write a 50 shades of grey type book and try and sell it? How long would this take?

[Anonymous No.11916016]

>>11915961
The union of masculine and feminine can be understood in terms of the image of yin-yang/ Platos original man: The two, mediated by each other form a whole, and each half contains a seed of its other within itself. Through a functioning relationship it can integrate that other into itself. The masculine, forceful, active, logical, straight-forward, etc. gains a greater appreciation for intuition, the ambiguous, mercy without becoming weaker for it, and the feminine it's the other way around. They transcend their particular form and become more universal by learning from each other. In sado-masochistic relationships the two sides persist as extremes, there is no 'third' mediating between them.

[Anonymous No.11916021]

>>11915920
ironic

[Anonymous No.11916026]

>>11916006
i think a few people have tried this
50 shades had unique place of starting as twilight fanfic at the height of the fanfic & twilight era

[Anonymous No.11916027]

>>11916006
I've thought about doing the same anon but my heart's just not in it.
Do it for all of us, and when you become harry potter rich and being interviewed on cnn you can turn around and say "fuck all you normie shitstains, i did it for the (you)'s "

[Anonymous No.11916050]

>>11916016
Doesn't that myth include male-male and female-female beings? I don't think it serves your argument. I'm also not concerned with masculinity and feminity, but with transgression and acceptance. Furthermore I don't understand what you mean by the two sides persisting as extremes. Wouldn't that only be the case if each partner were to follow their "natural" predilection? What's the "third" and why can it not be found in sado-masochistic relationships?

[Anonymous No.11916053]

I believe it speaks to the female need to be near powerful males with sexual prowess in a society that shuns the natural process of courting.

No, they aren’t usually very well written. And I actually enjoyed The Hunger Games. It’s just the next generation of trashy romance fiction featuring powerful men but women post 2012 are so unaware that this is what they subconsciously want and are taught to hate men that their cunts can only get wet for vampires.

[Anonymous No.11916062]

>>11915490
Beat me to it. This.

[Anonymous No.11916077]

>>11916053
i think you are conflating two groups. one is middle age women who either hate their marriages or are single / possibly undesired. the other is tweens whose imaginations are just coming into bloom with genre fiction

[Anonymous No.11916080]

>>11916027
>>11916026
Maybe we could train a neural network to read 50 shades of gray over and over and pump out a final result and then we change the subjects/themes...

[Anonymous No.11916091]

>>11916050
Yeah it does, my bad. Not sure why Plato did that, my understanding is that if you're in a male-male or female-female relationship you have to compensate for the slant through conscious effort in order to achieve a balance that comes more naturally in male-female relationships.

The 'third' is the place where the divine shows itself, the product of the reflection of the two into each other: When both parties are similarly capable of being active and passive, transgressive and accepting, challenging and supportive depending on what the situation calls for, that allows them to negotiate a reciprocal relationship with each other, rather than simply having one be controlled by the other.

[Anonymous No.11916118]

>>11915466
Women want to be raped

[Anonymous No.11916157]

>>11916080
>tfw you end up with Twilight

[Anonymous No.11916176]

>>11915920
hmmmm sweety... You are just insecure and paranoid about your shitty habits so you misunderstood my post. Maybe try reading some real literature, then you wouldn’t care about werewolf archetypes?

[Anonymous No.11916192]

>>11916091
That kind of relationship seems very noble and worthwhile and I don't intend to challenge the spark of the divine that enters it.
What I'm proposing is the existence of a more paradoxical way to feel that spark, based on the idea of martyrdom. This includes the search for the divine in the transcendence of the self in the case of the submissive or in accepting complete devotion in the case of the dominant partner.
Transgression and acceptance are subject to the rules of the ritual.
The difference between these pictures is that one of them ends in some sort of fusion of souls, while the other necessitates a ritualization keeping the partners separate.

I honestly don't know if I implicitly deny the possibility of a complete fusion or if I just liken the essence of love to that conception of beauty that I mentioned earlier: Beauty is always retreating from one's grasp. I have to read up on a couple of things before I can properly judge that.

[Anonymous No.11916208]

Addendum: Obviously there has to be some kind of distinction between the two pictures and maybe we have found what it is. But what I really set out to do in the beginning was to argue that the kind of picture I propose does not constitute a return to the womb and the rejection of one's will in order to melt into one. As you can see, it is quite the opposite.

[Anonymous No.11917108]

>>11915466

Guys either want a quirky eccentric girl or a damaged person (cancer patient, mental illness, rape/abuse victim, etc.) they can protect.

Girls want a bad boy they can reform.

[Anonymous No.11917124]

Male Monster/Human Girl
>love it! so empowering!

Female Monster/Male Human
>wish fulfillment! only sorry loser virgins like stuff like this!

[Anonymous No.11917145]

>>11915466
Thanks to biology girls are primed to acquire the most powerful, most dangerous, strongest badass and tame him to protect her and her babies. It's just a power fantasy, like those retarded isekai harem stories are for young men.