/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11691865]

>finally kind of started with the greeks
>read Heraclitus and Parmenides
>based
>read Plato next
>always hear everyone complaining about how he is a proto-fascist hack and that everything he said is wrong
>reading Plato and ancient greek stuff seems to be a chore for most people
>actually enjoy his works, early dialogues not so much, but really enjoy his middle and late stuff
>don't actually buy the ideas theory but appreaciate his intuition and delivery, don't give a crap about his politics

Why do people hate him so much?
I have enjoyed reading him and ancient greek philosophy much more than contemporary or most modern stuff
I'm aware of the problems of philosophy with the limits of language or the problems of ignoring experience in favor of theoretic stuff, but the greeks seem much more insightful in almost every way
What am I missing here?
Also, most contemporary stuff is much harder to read and you always need some secondary sources to explain them, which is garbage. I usually can't understand a single word of most contemporary stuff, like that Deleuze guy everyone here seem to like so much. Probably I'm just a brainlet. I know people younger than me that have read a lot of Derrida and that kind of stuff.
What is going over my head here?

[Anonymous No.11691881]

People like to 'hate' and 'love' instead of letting the thoughts have their due.

[Anonymous No.11691908]

Plato's philosophy hearkens back to a time when philosophy was about living properly. This requires DOING; Plato sought to gain political power to make his ideals a reality.

Most of contemporary philosophy is on the other hand about holding the right opinions while adhering strictly to the proscribed dogmas and practices laid down by political forces (selected either naturally or artificially). Actually doing, and especially the gaining of political power, is seen as beneath the philosopher. An air of smug authority, that such things are beneath the intellectual who has better things to do, is cultivated to hide the fact that the philosopher is deathly afraid of disagreeing with political power Socrates, meanwhile, was sentenced to death for disagreeing with the political power of his day.

[Anonymous No.11691921]

You're meant to start with Homer

[Anonymous No.11691965]

>>11691908
Based and redpilled

[Anonymous No.11692040]

>>11691908
Wrong

[Anonymous No.11692170]

>>11691865
Plato is The Beatles.

Deleuze is 80's King Crimson.

[Anonymous No.11692912]

>>11691865
>"""""early""""", """""middle""""", and """""late""""" dialogues
>ideas """""theory"""""
>"""""intuition""""" and """""delivery"""""
>dont give a crap about his politics
but anon, you're just as horrible as them...

[Anonymous No.11692925]

>>11691865
stupid people have basically no strong opinions or they have predetermined reactions to things; midwits pretend to be balanced and critique things meticulously, or have conformist socialized reactions to things; upper midwits will polemicize or give balanced perspectives; elite iq people just don’t read stupid embarassing shit and can’t but to mock insidiously pseudointellectual theory. You are a retard so you found nothing offensive in the dialogues and ignored his best idea which is fascist eugenic totalitarianism.

[Anonymous No.11692926]

>>11691865
who the fr*ck hates plato? is this a nu-academia thing?

[Anonymous No.11693358]

Moderately related, I've been reading the Socratic dialogues, and I feel like a lot of Socrates' arguments could have been contested a little more aggressively. Is the purpose more to learn how he arrives at his conclusions than the conclusions themselves?

[Anonymous No.11694857]

>started with the Greeks
>didn't even bother to learn the ancient Greek language
sorry buddy, but you have to do it all over again

[Anonymous No.11694867]

>>11693358
Yeah it's more about philosophy as a process. A lot of his dialogues don't even come to a conclusion or end in a stalemate between Socrates and the other interlocutor. If you want to read a dialogue where Socrates is contested pretty hard than try Parmenides.

[Anonymous No.11694873]

>>11692926
It's just the inevitable consequence of the start with the greeks meme.

[Anonymous No.11694879]

>>11691865
Aristotle is the protofascist retard, Plato is simply babby tier

[Anonymous No.11694885]

Plato is right about everything.

[Anonymous No.11694891]

>>11694879
>tfw ancient philosophy is still blamed for modern problems
Why the fuck do retards like you feel the need to attribute ridiculous sources for modern phenomena? Plato and Aristotle influenced everything that came after so is there anything you couldn't attribute to them?

[Anonymous No.11694895]

>>11691921

Just got a copy of the Iliad as a gift. Fagle's translation. Should I jump in tomorrow?

Sounds really, really, almost unbelievably comfy.

[Anonymous No.11694927]

>>11691881
I have a designated wall in my living room where I hang up pictures of people I hate, alive or dead, so I can throw knives at them. Currently have Descartes, Le Corbusier, Bush senior, Robert Moses, Zaha Hadid, Marx, that nigga who kicked my cat, Jay z, Charles V, and Churchill

[Anonymous No.11694934]

>>11694927
fucking based, already formulating my list.

[Anonymous No.11694938]

>>11694885
There is literally nothing in philosophy that wasn't addressed by Plato in one of his dialogues. How in the name of Zeus did he manage to do it?

[Anonymous No.11694956]

>>11694934
It's an interesting conversation piece and it drives out the normies. I'm a pretty boy and I was surprised when women wouldn't even give a shit when they're horny. I stopped taking it down whenever I invited a girl over when I found that out. I'll post a pic of it when I get home

[Anonymous No.11694960]

>>11694895
Probably one of the comfiest books in existence, I'd start reading as soon as possible.

[Anonymous No.11694972]

>>11691908
>>11691881
Based
>>11692040
Contrarian niggerfaggot

[Anonymous No.11694978]

Does anyone else agree that the closing lines in Symposium are incredibly touching and comfy?
>early hours of the morning
>all the other guests have left
>all that remain are Socrates, Agathon and Aristodemus
>Agathon and Aristodemus are half asleep
>socrates is still discoursing while passing around an enormous goblet of wine
I dunno why but I thought it was a funny image. Makes me think about talking shit with a few bros after a party has died down.

[Anonymous No.11694989]

>>11691908
I think it's more of the effect of the philosopher being unable to affect modern day politics has resulted in the current attitude they have regarding it, not the other way around. The way Plato can realistically inflict change in the time it was written was pertaining to the relative philosophically less complex political system of the day. Controlling governments in the post Napoleon world is complicated business that's much more to their 'logical argument'. The philosophers work has shifted more into observing and analyzing at a distance than direct action, everybody knows how that story ends in the 20th century.

[Anonymous No.11694993]

>>11694867
Or Protagoras

[Anonymous No.11694997]

>>11694978
half of them were gay lovers, did you not pick up on the dynamic between Alcibades and Socrates? Do rw’s just not fucking notice that Socrates is a gay-pedophile?

[Anonymous No.11695001]

>>11694997
Holy fuck dude how stupid do you think I am. Of course I noticed it lol it's not implicit in any way. I was just saying the closing lines were comfy. You have to either accept the gay pedophilia or not read Plato.

[Anonymous No.11696294]

>>11694956
Waiting for the deliver anon

[Anonymous No.11696496]

A society needs its citzens to belive in its ideological structure. As Plato directly challenges the status quo it leads to the fact that he's vehomently attacked, like others who challenge current society.

[Anonymous No.11697437]

anyone who thinks they understand The Republic is a fucking moron, especially people who think it was all some sort of proto-fascist manifesto

every dumbass can read plato's dialogues and follow the plot, doesn't mean u understand the philosophy/ideas he's discussing

[Anonymous No.11697573]

>>11691865
Plato was pretty nice to read, but I'm having a tougher time with Aristotle.

[Anonymous No.11698425]

>>11694997
>Alcibades
lol this nigga is funny.

[Anonymous No.11698448]

>>11697437
Did even Plato understand it?

[Anonymous No.11698452]

>>11696496
>As Plato directly challenges the status quo
Plato has been the status quo for most of history

[Anonymous No.11698467]

>>11697437
>>11691865

>
InThe RepublicPlatoemphasizes the need for a philosopher king in an ideal state.Plato believed the ideal state would be ruled by an elite class of rulers known as “Guardians” and rejected the idea ofsocial equality. Plato believed in an authoritarian state.Plato heldAthenian democracyin contempt by saying: "The laws of democracy remain a dead letter, its freedom is anarchy, its equality the equality of unequals". Like fascism, Plato emphasized that individuals must adhere to laws and perform duties while declining to grant individuals rights to limit or reject state interference in their lives. Like fascism, Plato also claimed that an ideal state would have state-run education that was designed to promote able rulers and warriors.Like many fascist ideologues, Plato advocated for a state-sponsored eugenics program to be carried out in order to improve the Guardian class in hisRepublicthrough selective breeding.Italian FascistIl DuceBenito Mussolinihad a strong attachment to the works of Plato.

[Anonymous No.11698599]

A year or two ago there were a series of threads and a wiki/guide a guy was creating regarding 'starting with the greeks'. He had a guide along with many images and information about different publications and which to read or avoid and why. Does anyone remember these and have an archive link to one of the threads or even a link to his site?

[Anonymous No.11698656]

>>11698467
Phoneposting faggot

[Anonymous No.11698668]

>>11698656
It's because you're not worth me turning my laptop on

[Anonymous No.11698673]

>Plate

o