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/lit/ - Literature

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11483580 No.11483580 [Reply] [Original]

Smartest anon in the world here to answer all your burning questions about new/long/short sun

>> No.11483593

how does one go about reading a gene wolfe story for the first time

>> No.11483602

>>11483593
You open up the book

>> No.11483603

>>11483593
Just read, pussy. It will make your brain stronk

>> No.11483612

Why does Book of the Long Sun go DUDE ALIEN VAMPIRES LMAO at the end and then suddenly stop?

>> No.11483628

>>11483612
Did you read Short Sun? Long Sun Is pretty much just a 1000 page setup for the infinitely better Short Sun

>> No.11483631

>>11483612
Also, there are quite a few clues to Quetzal being an inhumi hidden throughout Long Sun. He was the one who drained Teasel's blood in Nightside for instance

>> No.11483638

who is apu punchau
who and what are erebus and abaia

>> No.11483685

>>11483638
Apu Punchau is Severian, that's why he distingegrates when they wrestle. Two of the same object cannot come into contact with each other

Erebus and Abaia are two warring cosmic horrors that have come from beyond the stars to take stop humanities acension into higher beings. They exert influence over human minds and are linked with the sea, much like a lovecraft being. Abaia is the mother of the undines Severian meets and sees in his dreams. It can also be interpreted that they are part of the same being, in a controlled war much like Autarch and Vodalus

>> No.11483736

oooh more severian fan art

>> No.11483768

>>11483631
I think he drinks a bigass bowl of blood, which is beyond a clue. It was still an odd way to end a tetralogy.

>> No.11483787

>>11483768
Silk also mentions smelling blood on his breath a few times.

It is very odd, and the ending feels quite rushed in general. I actually feel like the final two long sun books are very poor. Especially compared to the adventurous mystery feel of the first two

>> No.11484478

>>11483580
why are they so bad? I was so, so excited to read long/short sun after finishing tBotNS, but lo and behold they're terrible. nothing like botns at all. what did wolfe mean by this?

>> No.11484593

>>11484478
Short Sun is amazing. It rivals New Sun in my mind

Long Sun is good too, but not even close

>> No.11484809

>>11483580
Ok I've got one for you
I'm only halfway through Sword, and I've been wondering if it's only Severian that gets Thecla in his head after eating her corpse or if all of Vodalus' pals also have it

Geez I feel like a total retard sometimes and I really struggle while reading it, but boy, what a ride.

>> No.11484833

>>11484809
It was all of them. There are many characters throughout the book that have the memories of countless others inside them.

Since it is impossible to inherit Thecla's soul through eating her corpse, it can be safe to say that Severian only inherits memories. Perhaps Wolfe is saying something about how memories make us who we are

>> No.11484854

>>11484833
Thanks my dude

>> No.11485110

Op is a blatant imposter. I am the smartest anon in the world and the only one who can make heads or tales of Wolfe.

>> No.11485150

yeah but he raped his sister, jolenta

>> No.11485171

>>11485150
He's probably the rascal who made Wardine be cry as well.

>> No.11485398

In the very first chapter of the first book, why does Severian make it sound so much like he became a soldier of Vodalus and overthrew the Autarch etc.?
When I started reading BotNS for the first time, I was really put of by that, because it sounded like just any other fantasy novel.
I know Wolfe may have put it there for exactly that reason, to capture the dumb generic fantasy reader audience, but that is a sad explanation.
I want an explanation why Severian, when he is Autarch and about to embark on the giant time and space ship, writes a first chapter full of allusions, but with a lot of them really quite misleading as to the actual nature of his journey.
The "We believe that we invent symbols"-paragraph is even slightly "famous" (in that I’ve seen it quoted on here on time or another), yet its contents are quite wrong with regards to the story, aren’t they?

>> No.11485472

>>11485398
Not op- actual smartest anon here. No, Wolfe believes in pre-existing transcendent symbols that existed before reason and have a numinous influence that is beyond logic and causality. Things happen of themselves - sometimes that nature is spiritual. This does not preclude free will, but might encompass the order of the universe. A coin is not a coin, a thorn not merely a thorn, but transcendent and essential revelations.

>> No.11485481

>>11485398
The coin of Vodalus is counterfeit, but that chivalric defense of Thea is transformed into his mercy towards thecla, whom he becomes, creating him even if the loyalty is not accurate. The corpse of humanity will be pillaged for gain, after all, and some good can come of death.

>> No.11485488

>>11485150
Jolenta is not his sister, Borski tier. In a world of Borskis, be an Aramini.

>> No.11485491

>>11484833
Urth makes clear that the soul is not a finite thing but resonates with the body across multiple iterations - an infinite essence tied to a material form. This might be more complex than mere memory.

>> No.11485495

>>11484809
Only Severian brings thecla back to life inside him through the powers of the approaching white fountain. All the others lose it over time, a mere physical phenomenon. Don’t be fooled by imposters - there can be only one all knowing vizier of lupine knowledge.

>> No.11485612

Is Father Inire also Hethor from a different timestream that arrives on Tzadkiel's ship?

How did Quetzal end up on the Whorl at all?

Are Agia and Agelus Severian's grandchildren?

Who is Horn in "Blue's Waters" Horn himself or Silk after some weird amnesia/astral projection takeover?

Is The Outsider Severian that fall back through Time, or Mucor that searches for him astrally in the Future

>> No.11485658

>>11485612
No inire is not even human. Hethor is.
No Agia and agilus are probably not related to sev. The only hint that they are is Agia hiding in the place of severa in the hut, but this is more to show that severa exists and is hidden.
Horn writing in OBW is horn and silk in silk’s body. He flees into Babbie leaving Silk in denial when he says goodbye at the end of OBW, which is why the tone changes and the narrative shifts from past to present in IGj, even telling horn’s story in 3rd person at the start at first
The outsider is God BUT [the enlightenment was engineered by silk’s biological parents kypris and Typhon (voice of dove, voice of mountain (mt Typhon) hijacked by the outsider to turn it true. The outsider who holds silk’s hand when he is injured is future Silk, who can go backwards on time and does so on short sun at times, even visiting krait as he does at one point and showing up in inclito’s mother’s story.

>> No.11485666

Sorry forget spoiler tag on the last phone sucks for that.

>> No.11485677

>>11485612
they left orbit but came back to blue (mars) and green (Urth) so the inhumi have always been there, even saying “we are everywhere” when they visit Nessus, which will become the city of the inhumi.

>> No.11485717

>>11485677

What in tarnation, Blue is Urth/Earth that gets flooded after Severian re-ignites the Sun, and Green is the terraformed Moon and it was the Moon throughout the whole length of BoTNS, it's clearly referenced as such dozens of times

>> No.11485723

how long until they make the inevitable HBO series

>> No.11485763

>>11485717
Nope. Short Sun https://pastebin.com/SFFkBN8X

Also this fucking thing thinks it is spam how the fuck can I post this fuck everyone and everything. Image coming

>> No.11485771

>>11485763
fuck you if you call this spam you piece of shit https://ibb.com/fqD3my

>> No.11485776

>>11485717
Clearly doesn’t apply to Wolfe son so believe it or not Truth doesn’t rely on your limited incomplete understanding bwahahahahahahahahahahHHAHhahHhahahahahagahaahahahagahahahahaahahahahahaha

>> No.11485810

>>11485771 keeps calling it spam but it isn’t fucking spam so take out the m on com above on the link
I hate everyone

>> No.11485822

>>11485763
>>11485776

Oh boy, autistic extrapolations and conjectures. BoTNS takes place on Earth, the g(G)reen terraformed Moon is identified several times as such, and Mars is separately identified as Verthandi. Literally 0 reasons to suppose otherwise.

>> No.11485867

>>11485822
Except for the fact that it has a mechanism - Silk thinks of green in its earlier state before coming to Urth the first time. And, you know, Wolfe actually correcting someone that Green is Urth who couldn’t find a mechanism for the time discrepancy between Blue and Urth. That’s his handwriting. And the interview in which he says that blue and green are not Urth and lune ... explain away that eh?

>> No.11485872

>>11485822
the $64,000 questions, so I'll just go for broke. (Hmm. I've gotta be very precise here. Okay, here goes:) Which of the following, if any, are physically (not in some merely literary or symbolic sense) the same planets as Blue and Green, in the same order?:

Ushas and Lune
Urth and Lune
Lune and Ushas
Lune and Urth
Two Urths
Two Ushases
Two Lunes

GW: None.

>> No.11485876

>>11485822
And we are talking about Short Sun not new sun for the love of Christ.

>> No.11485893

>>11485867
>>11485872

That doesn't make a lick of sense. Typhon built the Whorl generation ship but it never actually went anywhere, and was parked outside Urth and Lune. Severian causes the cataclysm on Urth which becomes Blue, and Lune remains the same green terraformed planet, so they are Blue and Green.

>> No.11485901

>>11485893
Argue with Wolfe. It went on a big circle as described in the embedded story of when silk talks about being sent out into the woods beyond limbs with mother, getting called back, stopping at a neigbor’s House, getting lost with an old old man whose sins were very heavy. 300 years pass on the whorl, thousands on Urth, as rogoglio says. Take it up with Gene.

>> No.11486121
File: 37 KB, 853x625, Urth ain't Free.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11486121

>>11485901

here's my response

>> No.11487853

>>11485893
>Typhon built the Whorl generation ship but it never actually went anywhere, and was parked outside Urth and Lune.

No, it does make the journey. It's followed its programmed mission, but didn't unload the settlers to the new planets when it arrived. This is explicitly stated in Long Sun. The idea that the ship never actually goes anywhere is completely at odds with the image on the final page of Short Sun.

>> No.11488647

>>11485658
There is absolutely no evidence that Horn goes into Babbie

The "three horned beast" he rides is literally just a metaphor for the three Horns ( Horn, Silk, and the Neighbor blood)

>> No.11488651

>>11485717
Urth is Green

>> No.11488835

>>11488647
Learn how to read. I’m sick of quoting the page in rttw of babbie throwing down hide’s attacker on the ship on Urth and of him being CALLED babbie in the scene at the end of OBW, pointing at his horn and trying to say huh huh huh in rttw to make his son understand Believe what you want. I don’t give a fuck. Be wrong your whole life.

>> No.11488842

>>11488647
Literally no evidence when you are fucking illiterate god damn all you people. Jesus Christ fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck stupid motherfuckers no evidence guys no evidence no evidence no evidence hey here’s Horn being called babbie right before he says goodbye and suddenly acts like Silk. Fuck you

>> No.11489224

>>11488835
Wow, hit a nerve? Believe that Babbie saying "Huh huh huh" somehow means that he is Horn all you want but it's stupid. And Babbie was never called Horn. That's just a straight up lie

>> No.11489408

>>11489224
At the end of OBW a creature comes and puts his head on silkhorn’s lap. He hears someone calling for babbie and knows that they are calling for him. I don’t give a fuck if a moron like you believes me because you can’t read.

>> No.11489581

>>11489408
You're fucking lying. That doesn't even happen in the book retard

>> No.11489608

>>11483602
I snorted, thanks.

>> No.11489615

>>11485491
Is that what that whole fucking Naval Prince side-story shit was about in the middle of the second or third book?

>> No.11489707

If the Urth is Green and Verthandi is Blue, where's Lune

>> No.11489732

>>11489707
Lune is Blue

Verthandi is just mars

>> No.11490025

>>11489732

Now i'm completely fucking confused. Anons above claim that Green is Urth, and Blue is Mars, and Whorl went in sort of a circle.

>> No.11490196

>>11489707
It is destroyed. Hide tells a story of watching a green frog get approached by a red leech. When he looks back, he only sees the dead frog. The tale of the boy called frog in new sun involves a story of how early summer (Juno) is impregnated by a tree to make spring wind (mars) who then returns to Urth to give birth to fish and frog. The vanished gods are the trees that join with humanity on mars/blue and the metaphor hide tells of the frog and the red leech tells us what happens to the solar system. When the new sun came, sev looked up and saw apheta’s face on lune - something fucked up happened to the solar system.

>> No.11490211

When silk asks the neighbors what they used to call blue they say “ours” - of course they said Mars. The double limbed vanished people are a homage to the martians of the barsoom books of Burroughs. You know - allusion.

>> No.11490219

Wolfe felt bad so in a borrowed man he has Ern dream of wrestling a many armed being and describes a wormhole on mars that floods it ... in dreams, that book says, there’s a lot of water on Mars.

>> No.11490222

>>11483580
Does the story take place in the future, or in a universe that existed before our own?

>> No.11490228

What was it humanity did to warrant the sun being dimmed?

>> No.11490234

>>11484833
its also a literal sacrament

>> No.11490237

>>11490222
It happens either in a past or future universal cycle. So it's our universe, just a different iteration of it

>> No.11490238

>>11490222
Retconned. In the shadow of the torturer the appendix says it takes place in the future. The jungle hut has Christian missionaries who are told sev and Agia are the results of the choices they (we) make. Later in an interview Wolfe changed the story because of the flood covenant - past iteration. Given all the history Urth and earth share, it sure seems like a future that became morphed into the past through casuistry

>> No.11490240

>>11485398
Because Severian lies

>> No.11490241

>>11490228
Didn't you see how shitty and fucked up humanity was in New Sun? They raped their planet and each other. Even Severian isn't a great person

>> No.11490244

>>11490228
In Urth it is made clear they went out conquering and pillaging before they were reduced to post Typhon scarcity. Punished for their cruel hegemony across the stars

>> No.11490246

>>11490240
Severian never lies

>> No.11490247

>>11490240
This statement is meaningless. Like starting an essay with a Webster definition.

>> No.11490249

>>11490238
It makes much more sense that Urth is part of a different universal cycle and that Severian is the Jesus/Messiah figure of that particular cycle

>> No.11490255

>>11485677
>>11485717
what evidence is there that they simply returned to earth? The whole point was that Typhon was restarting mans empire

>> No.11490256

>>11490240
Because we think that we invent symbols

>> No.11490261
File: 133 KB, 600x600, gene.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11490261

>finish shadow of the torturer
>at the end wolfe literally goes 'i'm stopping here now go buy my next book'

wtf

>> No.11490265

>>11487853
so it went and came back? where is that?
and I'm sure people were saying in short sun they were going to ride it somewhere else

>> No.11490267

>>11490255
The resonance with Noah’s flood and Typhon’s desire to return his rule in perpetuity. The story Silk tells of a man who keeps his razor at a House because he plans on returning who sends his friend and her son out to the wilderness and falls them back. They stop at a neighbor’s house on the way back and the mother falls asleep, then the boy gets lost. It’s a straight up allegory for Typhon planning to call back his heir and sacrifice silk so he can live with his old face again. Mother/kypris/Hy falls asleep and rather than stop at home they stop at the neighbor’s house (blue) and are lost, not understanding where they are. There is all kind of homecoming stuff going on thematically in the book

>> No.11490272

>>11490261
Publishers forced him to do it, dammit

>> No.11490276

>>11490267
The tower on green horn dies in with the broken playing is described exactly like the matachin tower at the end of rttw. That’s the Easter egg moment, and the limping dude horn sees in the colorless cloak when he climbs up the tower on green is supposed to be another big big cameo. Wasted on the illiterate.

>> No.11490277

>>11490196
>story in new sun
but doesn't Book of the New Sun occur after long and short?

>> No.11490281

>>11490255
>Typhon sends out Whorl
>Lives inside as an AI
>Whorl comes back to Urth when it isn't fucked
>Humanity starts up again
>Typhon posseses Silk (his cloned body) and lives on again

78d Chess

>> No.11490282

>>11490276
Plating.

>> No.11490283

>>11490237
so a prior universe

>> No.11490285

>>11490277
Time travel is a huge part of this series, and hotly debated. Saying it occurs before or after long/short sun is an erroneous statement

>> No.11490290

>>11490246
>>11490247
>>11490256
it explains why Severian is contradictory, he isn't telling the truth and is an unreliable narrator
this is an entry level observation

>> No.11490291

>>11490277
The astral travel is through time. Read that write up linked here. Silk slips through time in several instances including randomly jumping back to see krait die (and showing up as pike’s ghost with Oren at the start of long sun as well as in the past story told by inclito’s mother.)

>> No.11490297

>>11490276
The city of the inhumi is also directly compared to Nessus multiple times

>> No.11490302

>>11490290
He doesn't lie, he us just mistaken. Which is understandable given the fucked up shit he sees

The "unreliability" is because he is a pawn in a

>> No.11490304

>>11490276
yes he returns to Urth and meets shit, that's time/space travel doesn't mean green is urth. Green is an uninhabited jungle with just inhumani living there that's not urth.

>> No.11490309

>>11490291
That write up is fucking bullshit. It has some good points that would be noticed it anyone with a brain, but also a bunch of shitty logic leaps

>> No.11490312

>>11490304
Brainlet

>> No.11490314

>>11490309
It’s okay. Wolfe just isn’t for you.

>> No.11490330

>>11490314
Ahhhh, classic tactic of "insult the person's intelligence instead of defending yourself"

I love it

>> No.11490331

Who the fuck is Hethor? Why does he have access to all that advanced technology and weird monsters?

>> No.11490358

>>11490330
A smart man knows when it is useless to argue with a wall. It’s clear no matter what arguments are brought forth preconceptions and an inability to make logical connections will prevail. So it is better that you simply dwell in ignorance all the days of your life.

>> No.11490363

>>11490330
(No insults to intelligence are necessary given the clear lack of insight displayed by the comments already - redundant.)

>> No.11490370

>>11490309
>>11490314
I think it’s really a bit unfortunate how Aramini and his followers act like all the supposedly hidden truths make up the Solar Cycle’s literary merit.
In literature, actual truth is not important. Whether Blue or Green are future Urth is besides the point; what matters are the parallels drawn in the text which might make you think about the nature of civilization and all that.

>> No.11490381

>>11490370
The theme of the book is in part that humanity can not recognize unfortunate truths about themselves. I think this is vastly appropriate here.

>> No.11490385

>>11490370
But wouldn’t it be nice to understand what you are reading even on a plot level? That’s why people study Joyce.

>> No.11490388

>>11490331

He's an interstellar traveller. That's not even a particular mystery since the sailor-astronaut connection is made through Jonas that instantly recognizes Hethor's monster's and practically breaks the 4th wall in telling the readers that they are from space.

>> No.11490392

>>11490370
And this is disingenuous given that just about every question everyone asks about Wolfe involves “what happened?” Everyone is trying to answer those same questions.

>> No.11490400

>>11490370
I agree. What I enjoy most about these books are the beautiful prose and the introspective philosophical nature. I tend not to care too much about the tiny details that seem to drive others crazy

>> No.11490404

>>11490358
>>11490363
Are you finished?

>> No.11490406

>>11490400

> I tend not to care too much about the tiny details that seem to drive others crazy

Well some of them are pretty neat and reveal how well thought out the plot and worldbuilding are, but as evidenced by this thread, people started taking it too far.

>> No.11490410

>>11490404
Why stop there?

>> No.11490414

>>11490410
Dwarf tossing is a fine sport for some. It’s mental equivalent can be just as cathartic.

>> No.11490416

Long Sun are some of the comfiest books I've ever read.
>Silk frying those green tomatoes
Shit made me so hungry

>> No.11490417

>>11490261
>go buy my next book
if only there were a place where you could borrow books for free

>> No.11490436

>>11490416

Imo, Long Sun takes a huge dive in the second part. After the Trivigaunti arrive on their airship, the story just goes all over the place and never comes together. I mean, i understand what is happening perfectly, but the magic just isn't there for some reason. Short Sun is vastly superior.

>> No.11490462

>>11490417
My local library is terrible. I pirate 99% of my books anyway. It was just weird that the book ended like that.

>> No.11490595

how do I achieve Severian mode
bodyweight? torture excersises?

>> No.11490661

>unreliable narrator
hi r*ddit

>> No.11490761

>>11490661
>implying Severian is an unreliable narrator
hi r*ddit

>> No.11490792

>>11490761
I was implying that r*ddit thinks Severian is unreliable
fking eb*umsworder

>> No.11490824

I thought swords were supposed to be pointy

>> No.11490898

>>11483580
Oh hi Marc.

>> No.11492475

>>11490416
A wonderful scene indeed. Looking back when one is finished with Long Sun, the beginning of it all really has a special soft vibe to it.
Might have been nice if the action following in the later parts had been more low-key as well, instead of being so decidedly epic.


>>11490385
Maybe some study Joyce because of that.
The way in which his work stands out, though, is that it is full of references, most of it incredibly obscure (pertaining to his very own childhood memories or such like).
So obviously people think that to understand the work, they have to understand all the references – which certainly seems true, in a way – and hence set out to unriddle them.
This is certainly different from simply studying "What happens?"
As far as I am aware, on the level of actual events happening, Ulysses is pretty uncontroversial. Famous scenes like Bloom masturbating on the beach may not be communicated extremely clear in the book, but clear enough for "what did Bloom do on the beach" to not be an actually relevant research topic in and of itself. (Link me some papers if I’m wrong here.)


>>11490381
Sure; it still does not matter whether it’s actually their original home planet or not. In the Neighbours, humans may recognize themselves (their own spirit), regardless of whether the Neighbours have really been humans. They have had similar philosophies, and met similar fates. They may also recognize themselves in the Inhumi, in certain regards. This is brilliantly pictured by the Inhumi actually posing as humans, of course. Calling back how "The Fifth Head of Cerberus" asks (in several uncanny ways): Who are the real/actual humans?
And this is always about the human spirit, the human thinking, the human mind, of course. The question is not "who has a human body?"
In New Sun, there are people with human bodies that have had their brains intentionally "reverted" to an inhuman, animal-like state. That is the same theme. Or consider the Ascians. Are they still part of humanity? Who is more of a "real human": An Ascian, or two Inhumi when they perform their mating ritual? How about a torturer’s apprentice? What is redeeming him?
I think these are some of the really good questions evoked by the Solar Cycle.

>> No.11492616

Here are some FACTS about the Solar Cycle

1. Urth is our Earth in the distant future, it isn't some other iteration of Earth from another universe beyond the end of time. Gene Wolfe retconned the nature of Urth many years after writing the book after spending decades thinking about the theological implications of his own story and concluding that God only does things ONCE and wouldn't need to send The Flood twice. But Urth *as originally written in TBOTNS* is our world in the future, and even The Urth of the New Sun doesn't directly contradict this (though does open the door to the possibility of cosmic cycles).

2. Blue and Green are NOT Urth and Lune. Frankly, I don't even know how this stupid theory managed to get any legs at all. There are so many blatantly obvious reasons why not... and absolutely no evidence to support the theory at all.

>> No.11492713

3. Thecla isn't brought to life within Severian by the Claw/Sev's own New Sun power. It's only that his eidetic memory preserves her memories and experiences so completely, and so perfectly, that sometimes he gets lost in these memories and "remembers" BEING her so vividly that he temporarily becomes her, as if possessed. But the tragedy is that her soul is gone; there aren't two personalities in there like Fight Club, they don't talk to each other when Severian is lonely.

>> No.11492825

>>11492616

>Blue and Green are NOT Urth and Lune. Frankly, I don't even know how this stupid theory managed to get any legs at all.

Maybe because
>Urth is our Earth in the distant future
And people on it can see that the terraformed Moon is green, and remark on it dozens of times? You fucking retard.

>> No.11492864

4. Quetzal was an inhuma deliberately placed on the Whorl after it arrived in the Red/Blue system by The Neighbors as an experiment to see how inhumi and humans interacted. This is directly stated in one of the Short Sun books. The Neighbors do still have, and use, space ships, as depicted in a scene in Return to the Whorl

5. The Neighbors became "infected" (or infiltrated and parasitised) as a species by the Imhumi due to the inhumi ability to copy other creatures, not only physically but also by copying their souls. The Neighbors were unable to defeat the inhumi because the more mentally and spiritually powerful the Neighbors became, the more powerful the inhumi became. Eventually, the Neighbors solved the inhumi problem by transferring their existence almost entirely to the astral plane; since in the astral plane, Neighbor and Inhumi spirits were indistinguishable, they essentially became one people, with no need for one to prey upon the other.

>> No.11492884

>>11492825
So what you're saying is that because the terraformed moon that people of Severian's time call "Lune" is green, it must therefore be the same planet as the planet called Green in BOTSS - because they are both the same colour? Do you realise how stupid your post is?

>> No.11492934

6. The secret of the inhumi is ostensibly that without humans to copy and human blood to drink, they are mere animals, but it's typical of Gene Wolfe to hide secrets within secrets. The deeper secret of the inhumi is that they can't fly to Blue by themselves at all, but rely on humans to take them in what Landers remain, and they probably can't breed on Blue either. And the deepest secret of the inhumi of all, the one which Horn knew had the power to wipe them out, is simply that they are truly pathetic and pitiable creatures who desperately want to be us, but can never be, as revealed by Juganu when he describes the heartbreaking mating ritual of the inhumi.

>> No.11492987

7. Asking whether Severian is a reliable narrator or not is kind of pointless. The real question is whether the things that he either deliberately or accidentally omits from his memoir are important, and if so, what their omission tells us about him. The fact he never directly tells us that Dorcas is his grandmother AND he probably knocked her up tells us a lot about what kind of person he is and how he felt about the situation. This is doubly the case in BOTSS where the narrator's omissions are vital to understanding his experiences and feelings. For example, In Green's Jungles actually features very little actual description of what happens in Green's jungles, because the entire experience was more ghastly than mere words can ever convey, and Horn died there hopeless, alone, diseased, and in despair.

>> No.11493435

The one thing I am certain Gene succeeded in doing in Short Sun was writing a book that turned everybody who ever read it into a self-righteous asshole.

>> No.11493544

>>11483580
How does it compare to ASOIAF, Gormenghast, LOTR, Shannara, etc. ?
Also is it at least better than Wheel of Time? That shit got bad fast
And is it honestly worth reading a 1000 page intro?

>> No.11493548

>>11490436
>>11492475
Totally agreed. There's some sort of comfy magic in the first Long Sun book. I don't know how to explain it, but it's there, and it diminishes as the story goes on, and the scope becomes larger

>> No.11493584

>>11493544
Better, better, better, better, better, yes

>> No.11493646

What did Severian hear underground that scared the man-apes?

>> No.11493660

>>11483580
I still don't get what happened at the end of Shadow of the Torturer. Or how/why exactly Jonas died...

>> No.11493731

>>11493584
Shit alright, I'll check it out then

>> No.11493777

>>11490898
This. That boi is ravenous for praise of his Gene Wolfe reading.

>> No.11493795

>>11493777
Not op but let me just clarify by saying I hate short sun threads. A waste of everyone’s time.

>> No.11493855

>>11490265
No, it just went, it didn't come back. It made the trip but its passengers hadn't disembarked as planned (thus all the problems the generation ship was suffering in Long Sun). People in short sun were indeed going to ride it somewhere else, I believe it was a return journey back to Earth but it's been 8 years or so since I read it so I can't be sure.

>> No.11493932

>>11483685
What evidence is there that Erebus and Abaia are in opposition to one another? I always assumed they worked together.

>> No.11494244

>>11493932
Everybody just makes up whatever they want about these books.

>> No.11494296

>>11483580
TRAPS
GAY
OR
NOT
GAY
???!!!???

>> No.11494327

>>11494296
If you cut the horn off a unicorn it’s just another horse.

>> No.11494510

>>11494296
traps are gay
sodomy is gay
you are gay

>> No.11494787

>>11493660
Jonas didn't die

>> No.11494805

Where do I go after reading all of Gene Wolfe?

>> No.11494814

>>11494805
heaven

>> No.11494891

>>11490241
>>11490244
Not to reveal myself as an idiot, but what evidence is there that the sun was intentionally dimmed? I thought it was just the sun dying out as stars tend to do.

Also haven’t read Long Sun or Short Sun yet, will probably tackle them after finishing up the Black Company series.

>> No.11494896

>>11490302
I mean he does lie intentionally at least once- about sleeping with Thecla- though he does admit eventually that he did. That being said I don’t really buy into the whole “Severain lies all the time” theory.

>> No.11495305

>>11494896
Does he even outright lie about that? Or is it more of a convenient omission?

>> No.11495387

>>11495305
Hmm, without going back to reread I want to say it’s an outrigh lie. He states that he doesn’t betray the guild by sleeping with Thecla, but eventually we know he does just that.

>> No.11495428

>>11495387
Hmmm. How do we know it's just one Severian writing the book of the new sun? It's entirely possible that multiple Severians could have played a part

>> No.11495508

>>11495428
For starters we outright know it’s multiple Severians writing the series- at least if we include the New Urth. However it’s all apparently one stream of conscious experiencing one timeline.

The idea that there are multiple Severians from multiple timelines all intermingling their experiences together but never referencing that in their book, is as unsubstantiated as Severain constantly lying.

The more likely explanation is that due to Severain’s perfect memory in his writings he carries over the feelings he had at those time. Therefor when writing about his time at the guild he has great difficulty admiting his treachery to them. As time passes in the book and his memory leaves the guild, he is finally able to admit what he did.

>> No.11495526

>>11495508
How do we "outright now this?" Where is the evidence in the text?

>> No.11495537

>>11495387
>>11494896
He was talking about fake Thecla.

>> No.11495567

Does Severian really eat the flesh of the real Thecla? Is it possible that it was just some random girl it's only Severian's memories and preconceptions of her that form into another consciousness in his mind?

>> No.11495631

How are Silver Silk and Passilk different? Why make the distinction between the two? Which one was possessing Pig?

>> No.11495773

>>11495567
Severian is able to remember things Thecla remembered which are proven to be true to life (e.g. secret door to escape the Antechamber in the House Absolute) which he himself could never have known, so the idea he invented Thecla "memories" seems very, very unlikely>>11495567

>> No.11495785

>>11495526
Severian dies and is resurrected at least a couple of times during the course of TBOTNS and especially TUOTNS. You could argue that since parts of TUOTNS are written by an Eidolon of Severian, these parts of the memoir aren't written by the "same" Severian as wrote TBOTNS, but to go further and say inconsistencies in the story are due to merging multiple timelines is unlikely.

>> No.11495799

>>11494891
There are references to a "black worm gnawing at the heart of the sun" or words to that effect sprinkled through TBOTNS (and possible even more obtuse references to how this might have happened e.g. the black beans cast into the sea)

>> No.11495818

>>11495785
Which parts does Severian die at? And which parts are written by the eidolon and how?

I understand that he dies in the beginning of the book, and even sees his own bones during the flood in Urth, but what are the other spots? The Avern duel?

>> No.11495917

Holy shit! So I'm playing Castlevania: Symphony of the Night right? And I'm near the end of the game

One of those green laser skeletons just dropped a sword called "Terminus Eat" I shit you not

>> No.11495932

>>11495818
Avern duel - Severian very likely is killed but resurrected by the Claw; Cave of the man-apes, it's possible the same thing happened; maybe he did drown in the Gyoll; and we know for sure he fell to his death on Tzadkiel's ship and was brought back as an Eidolon. I'd need my copy of the book and several hours to list all the *possible* deaths, Severian loses consciousness quite a lot over the course of the books

>> No.11495936

>>11495917
That's a coded message from Japan to the US, stop eating so much you fatties

>> No.11497238
File: 30 KB, 720x648, FB_IMG_1532194881769.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11497238

Should I read this shit if I have already read the plot on wikipedia?

>> No.11497574

>>11497238
Why not? You’re not
>reading for plot
are you?

Obviously if you think the plot sounds bad, stay away.
But imho the book is very nicely written; and if I’d known the plot beforehand, I’d probably have made it through even faster. (I am this poster >>11485398 – I stopped reading for a while at some point early in the book because I suspected it’d all play it too clichéd.)
In any case, just read the first chapter (on amazon or something) and see whether it makes you want to read on.

>> No.11497921
File: 161 KB, 390x644, Est(1)(Anime).png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11497921

This is your sword for today

>> No.11498457

>>11497238
Sure, I had read all about every book in the solar cycle before picking up TBOTNS but nothing can prepare you for the head screwing experience of actually reading Gene Wolfe, and you may come away from the book with a radically different take on the story to what some peasant Wikipedia editor came up with

>> No.11498932

Silk and Severian are both Typhon clones

>> No.11499613

>>11495917
too bad it's shit

>> No.11499914

>>11485658
Wrong, there are many hints point toward Hethor being Inire

>> No.11500086

>>11499914
Such as?

>> No.11500094
File: 167 KB, 1056x1072, 1427544820077.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11500094

>tfw almost killed by a fucking flower

>> No.11500195

>>11483580
WHat do people make of the bit where Talos and Baldanders put on a passion play?

Wolfe is not on the same level as the greatest writers in the English language, but his work is the only 'fantasy' worth saving.

>> No.11500230

>>11485398
>In the very first chapter of the first book, why does Severian make it sound so much like he became a soldier of Vodalus and overthrew the Autarch etc.?
It's because at the start of the book Severian is in the incipient stages of life. He has not yet been initiated into the mysteries of his guild, his world is in the throes of geopoplitical and metaphysical turmoil. The fact that Severian's imagination is captured by the first exciting group of revolutionaries he finds should be viewed in the context of his inner search for meaning and how it is shaped and limited by the outside world. I'm not familiar enough with the book to pin down specifically what Wolfe is trying to say.

>> No.11500250

>wolfe thread
>anons argue about minor plot details and the correspondences between Wolfe's solar system and our own rather than actually talking about the themes which play out in his books or moments whose aesthetics were moving.
Wolfe's a great author but it's easy to see why his works haven't gained much attention in the literary sphere. Fantasy/sci-fi readers are fucking dumb and it puts people off.

>> No.11501036

What had happened to Silk and Hyacinth when Horn "takes over" Silk’s body? Were they trying to commit suicide together since the Whorl seemed hopelessly lost? I must have waited through all "Return to the Whorl" for this to be cleared up, but as far as I remember, it was never explicitly told, in the end.

>> No.11501077

only Shadow of the tortures is translated to my langauge and my English is not good enough to read the books. Should I bother with reading just Shadow of the torturer or is it not woth it if I cannot read the rest?

>> No.11501093

>>11501077
Just wait until your English is up to par or wait for translations. The first book by itself isn't worth it. Although you could read it and then come back to it again later when the others are available.

>> No.11501103

>>11501093
Ok thanks. Will have to improve my English then, as the translation is 20 years old and I don't think they are ever going to translate the rest.

>> No.11501104

>>11501077
If it’s a translation, chances are it’s absolutely terrible. I know the Wolfe translations into my mother tongue are.
For translating genre literature, there are no high standards. Publishers are happy with being able to dump that stuff on the market as cheaply and quickly as possible. They did not understand Wolfe is a great writer, and neither did the translator. They only cared about translating the text in such a way that the reader can understand the action that’s going on, because they thought the action is all that it’s about, since it’s 'just a Sci-Fi novel.'

Your English seems to be good enough that you can read the original English text, if with the help of a dictionary. I recommend you do that – it’s worth it.

>> No.11501160

>>11501104
I'll give it a try in Egnglish then, thanks for advice

>> No.11501169

>>11501104
>Your English seems to be good enough that you can read the original English text, if with the help of a dictionary.
tbf, most native English speakers need a dictionary when reading BoTNS. I know I did.
see Lexicon Urthus

>> No.11501267

>>11500195
Amazing, though baffling the first time I read it (and the second and third times desu). It's only after completing TUOTNS that you think back to Talos's play and think, holy shit, this is incredibly meta. Wolfe's stories are full of "delayed revelations" like that.

I'd love to see it performed on stage.

>> No.11501302

>>11501036
I don't think Silk was trying to kill himself. He slashed himself out of grief - recall early on in the Long Sun books (I think at Orpine's funeral) Blood's money is used to pay for professional mourners who slash themselves with knives as part of an exaggerated grieving process. Self cutting seems to be part of the religious rituals of Long Sun people.

Blood's money - Blood money - nice double pun.

So Silk was mad with grief and losing his sanity and will to live when Horn's memories are downloaded into his braingiving him an immediate boost and sense of purpose - Horn was one seriously tough bastard when you think about all the shit he fought through.

>> No.11501320

>>11501302
Oh, and it is never explained why or how Hyacinth died, but various oblique references in the text suggest she was pretty bipolar and she may have killed herself, overdosed on rust (this is pure speculation) or she may have been killed by a giant.

>> No.11502023

>>11500250
Maybe that would affect the theme, eh? Like if Marsch in Fifth Head is an abo persecuted by humans or if he is something else persecuted by Abi’s, it might say something different about colonialism and identity - criticizing the particular imperial western tradition vs a more universal statement about oppressing the other and even self-knowledge. You have to get the plot right to make thematic claims or you wind up with shit.

>> No.11502025

>>11501302
He tried to throw himself off the airship he has suicidal tendencies exacerbated by his desire to rejoin the divine.

>> No.11502032

>>11501267
I don’t know how someone can read Urth and then say that play isn’t the whole damn ending with motivations and all - it explains why the unfixed are doing what they are doing, what they hope to accomplish, hints at the flooding and equates the end with the beginning ... did Alzabo soup really claim it wasn’t related to the plot? It IS the plot for fuck’s sake.

>> No.11502040

>>11502032
Undines not unfixed autocorrect is a real piece of work.

>> No.11502064

>>11500250
The whole emotional weight for one reading of short sun is that Silk can not accept that his student sacrificed himself for him and so then pretends to be Horn, until finally faced with the realization when he has come “home” that it isn’t his. This is a thematic argument and affect that hinges on understanding precisely what and who the narrator is. The emotions of Silk would be different and the catharsis is different if he was Horn all along and decides seawrack is hotter than nettle. Fuck this i’m Silk peace out.

>> No.11502085
File: 1.59 MB, 1120x1360, eb467f03217533bc7c30c38f6fd4e57ced49610a_s2_n1.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11502085

>>11500094
I wish that was me

>> No.11503403

What is the significance of which head of Typhon's was blond? I keep coming across the "hehe try to figure this one out frens :^)" smugposting, but i can't quite connect how it is important or where it comes into play. Silk is blond, right? He is clone of Typhon? Well we find it out on our own eventually, so Severian's meeting with Typhon and his appearance has no significane at this point

>> No.11503403,1 [INTERNAL] 

No, the we believe we invent symbols paragraph is essential to the story. The First Severian failed his quest. This Severian succeeds because of the Claw, the symbol that made him the New Sun.