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/lit/ - Literature

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11367905 No.11367905 [Reply] [Original]

>Tell me, anon, for I am greatly confused. What is this 'literature' you keep on talking about? How can we define its essence?

>> No.11367930

>>11367905
>O Socrates, think of all the books about stories! The total sum of these, I daresay, one may call literature.

>> No.11367950

>>11367930
So is all narrative fiction, regardless of their difference in quality or style, "literature"?

>> No.11367961

>>11367950
Indeed so, my friend, we will be better off discerning bad from good literature, than to argue endlessly what books shall be excluded. Don't you think so, husband of Xanthippe?

>> No.11367985

>>11367905
Socrates, shut it now or I will turn you in for being a brazen pederast

>> No.11367994

>>11367985
everybody here in Athenes is, you pussy-reeking softy

>> No.11368018

>Well if you wish to know, my dear Socrates, then I shall tell you. Literature, I should say, is all those written works which can be called artful, and they are useful for the enjoyment and instruction of educated men, for the appreciation of their intrinsic beauty, and many other fine things.

>> No.11368024

>>11368018

>A fine answer, anon, as I would expect from such a beautiful boy bred from the finest stock. But still, ignorance beclouds my thinking. So do tell me, what do you mean when you call literature that which is artful? Come on my good man, do not hesitate!

>> No.11368037

>>11367905

>Blessed man, since you are asking, I will tell you. Indeed, literature is the art concerned with procuring pleasure through written words, be it when one reads them silently, as you and I do when examining the writing of poets in our solitary moments, or when one reads them aloud by reciting them, as a good rhapsode would do.

>> No.11368050

>>11368024
>>as I would expect from such a beautiful boy bred

*blushes*

>Ahem, well is it not obvious, Socrates? For although literature surely includes works of the written word, such drivel as which small children or laymen produce cannot rightfully be called literature. To think a small boy, no taller than my waist could be set in the same vein as our Homer! Literature then, is a work not only of such and such a form, but of a sufficient quality.

>> No.11368052

good thread

>> No.11368164

>>11368050

>I would have expect nothing less of a mind with such alacrity as yours, Anon! So we can say that because literature follows quality, we can deem it artful which makes it good. But...by the dog! I think our little shit posting has taken us completely off the beaten track! Because the painter produces artful paintings, and the sculptor artful statues. What, then, can we say makes them any different from the great works by Homer?

>> No.11368315

>>11368164

>By Zeus, Socrates, it is obvious: the works of literature are different because they are made of words!

>> No.11368399

>>11368052

Would have been if OP was not a brainlet. Check this:

>>11368050
>For although literature surely includes works of the written word

>>11368164
>the painter produces artful paintings, and the sculptor artful statues. What, then, can we say makes them any different from the great works by Homer?

>>11368315
> are different because they are made of words!

He already pointed out literature is made by words, and he had to repeat himself because Socrates didn't get part of his question.
Still there is potential

>> No.11368550

>for when I write a list of boys I am in love with, I am writing words, or when the merchant advertises his produce by displaying a parchment in the agora, he too is writing words. And are these productions literature like the works of Homer?

>> No.11368776

Socrates' "pretend to be stupid" shtick gets old after about half a dialogue.

You can literally just skip right to Aristotle for the beginning of philosophy.

>> No.11368932
File: 339 KB, 1246x602, aristotle thread.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
11368932

>>11368776

>> No.11368991

>>11368776
Socrates answers every single one of his questions. I don't know if you ever paid attention while reading Plato's dialogues.

>> No.11369208

>>11368932
I love this kind of post.

>> No.11369240

>>11368932
>there was no free flow of information nor interesting or deep philosophical discussions in Aristotles' time

heh

>> No.11369254

>>11368932
fug I'm excited to read Aristotle now

>> No.11369259

>>11368932
except aristotle was wrong about practically everything and owes everything to euclid, thales, archimedes.

>> No.11369306

>>11369259
I can see the Archimedean influence in Aristotleian cosmology, but what in the name of ever-loving fuck does Aristotle owe to Euclid?

Aristotle was opposed to Euclid's followers, who were taught that Geometry was prior in understanding to Arithmetic, whereas Aristotle understood Arithmetic coming prior in understanding to Geometry.

>> No.11369447

Aristotle just articulated baby thoughts
Plato was a beta academic cuck
Socrates was truly alpha
Heraclitus was a 420 blaze it aphorisms guy

>> No.11369627

>>11368991
If he already knows the answers to his questions, hence why he's pretending to be stupid.

>> No.11369702

>>11369259

This meme that Aristotle was wrong about everything has to stop. His physics was wrong but almost all ancient physics was, unless you stretch your interpretations and say that e.g. ancient atomism foreshadowed modern atomism or something despite the fact that they were completely different and introduced for completely different reasons. Almost nobody was using physics right in ancient times and at least Aristotle laid down the base for empiricism as the modality of scientific research - together with founding lot of scientific branches himself.
Aristotle has written a tons of stuff about logic, metaphysics and ethics that I wouldn't dismiss as "wrong" before having read the whole of it carefully - possibly with good knowledge of the Greek language.

>> No.11369819

>>11367961
*Anytus leans over from another table*
>Get your hate-speech of my helen
*Anytus reees out the door and away*

>> No.11369919

>>11368315
>But if literature is artful words is the beautiful and good words from a lover to his loved or from a friend to his friend that encourages virtue then literature? Because you do agree that literature is artful words and artful means good. Am i right or wrong anon?

>> No.11369936

>>11369919
forgot to say
>and that well kept virtue is a high good?

>> No.11370013

>>11367905
I don't think I'll use his methods in a non-academic situation

>> No.11371509

>>11367905
Dear Socrates, I would gladly listen to your definition. But let me give my own, so that you may critique it.

Literature is language`s way of finding meaning, it has a mouthpiece for that - the human soul.

>> No.11371519

>>11367905
No dude you already know what literature is you have Homer. Don't play with me old man or I'll accuse you of subverting the youth

>> No.11371525

>essentialism
no thanks

>> No.11371529

>>11367905
That’s a pinchable nose

>> No.11371532

Is Plato worth reading? I've read some of the early works where this annoying cunt Socrates just comes to the conclusion that we can't come to any conclusion because we're dumb as shit.
I hate Socrates. Will he finally achieve something in the later works or is it just nonsense?

>> No.11371536

>>11371532
Spoilers he's executed for being an annoying shit but he's ok with it which makes him even more annoying

>> No.11371537

>>11371536
Yeah I read the one where he defends himself. I would have voted for his death

>> No.11371540
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11371540

>>11371536

>> No.11371549

>>11371540
SOCRATES, NO

>> No.11371709

>>11367930
>And if all of these books should perish, then literature too shall no longer have existence?

>> No.11371736

>>11371536
No, he was offered exile but he chose the death sentence

>> No.11371739

>>11367905
writing whose effect is perspective

>> No.11371744

good thread

>> No.11371755

>>11371736
>just fuck off, will you?
>nah I'll just use this moment to demonstrate my superiority one more time
What a chad

>> No.11371787

>>11371739

How do you define perspective?

>> No.11372650

>>11371739
>Really makes you think

>> No.11372665

BY ZEUS!

>> No.11372693

>>11369627
>hence why he's pretending to be stupid.

There are a lot of reasons for this. One is that Socrates often simply did not have the answers he was looking for. We can see this in the Philebus when Socrates is forced several times to amend his definition of "the good" in our lives. His interlocutor is also forced to evolve and eventually they reach ideological consensus.

Another important reason is that Plato makes it pretty clear that Socrates likes to have a laugh. He doesn't take himself very seriously and when people like Thrasymachus accuse him of being ironic in his pursuit of knowledge all he's revealed is their self-seriousness.

Basically aside from the misogyny and slavery Socrates was a super cool guy (or character) and hasn't really earned a lot of the criticism that's levied against him.

>> No.11372727

SOCRATES WAS A NIGGER

>> No.11372757

>>11367905
>implying "essence" is meaningful or worthwhile concept
lmaoing @ your life aristotle

>> No.11372760

>>11372693
The real reason is none of this stupid bullshit in this post.

Pay attention: the reason Socrates ‘pretends’ he is wrong is because Plato’s Socratic method is a rhetorical device utilized to prove concepts, and without the opposing figure giving short little quips, as unrealistic as it is, Socrates’ points and methods could not be proven

>> No.11373868

He was wrong but it is a good way to make you think and start philosophy.

>> No.11373886
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11373886

>>11372693

>Basically aside from the misogyny and slavery Socrates was a super cool guy (or character)

This is probably the best aspect about him, though.

>> No.11373892

>>11372693
cuck