/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.11328267]

>There will never be a battle of wits better across a novel than pic related
Prove me wrong, faggots

[Anonymous No.11328580]

>>11328267
Holmes vs. Moriarty is the only rivalry I can think of that even comes close. I agree, Light vs. L. is god-tier.

[Anonymous No.11328596]

>>11328580
If I like stuff like the Holmes vs Moriarty witfest, would I like death note?

[Anonymous No.11328597]

Yang Wenli vs Lohengram was better, I don't know about the novels but it was damn good in the anime.

[Anonymous No.11328608]

You know you only posted this to talk about anime on the literature board, OP.

[Anonymous No.11328797]

>>11328267
Give me 2 years

[Anonymous No.11328799]

>>11328596
Yes.

[Anonymous No.11328820]

>>11328596
>>11328799
Seconded. OP is right, it's remarkably good. I recommend the manga, but the anime is great too.

[Anonymous No.11328828]

>>11328608
No, I posted this to bait people into naming good novels with a battle of wits.

[Anonymous No.11328830]

>>11328596
It's basically the same thing, only with mass killings and god powers. The point of the 'death note' is that you write a name down on special Japanese god paper while imagining their face and they die. So the first seasons (which is the only one you should watch) is about Light (Protag) trying to find out the real name of L (Antagonist). I won't spoil the rest because it's interesting, and actually a decent anime for non-weebs.

[Anonymous No.11328835]

>>11328267
And the music, too. This is what got me interested in anime.
https://youtu.be/MTGlrcReWrk

[Anonymous No.11328912]

Paradise Lost pleb

[Anonymous No.11328916]

>>11328597
LOGH battles are dumb tho

[Anonymous No.11328923]

>>11328830
The first season being 37 episodes?

[Anonymous No.11328924]

>>11328267
Only the first third was good. When misa was introduced it got too retarded for me. Dumb writer couldn't resist pandering to shonen standards.

[Anonymous No.11328975]

The 39 Steps

[Anonymous No.11328991]

>>11328924
Misa is a fascinating study in psychosis. She is intentionally a straight rip-off from shonen tropes, and her (literal, religious) worship of Light propels the plot to new heights.

She's also absolutely necessary for all Light's machinations to work. He can't have a second body, so the best he can do is a slavish minion. And he has such a god complex (once again, literal and religious) that he could never turn away a convert.

[Anonymous No.11329004]

>>11328991
>it makes the plot interesting
Yeah, I know, it does that but it's a retarded twist and the circumstances to bring her into the plot are too bullshit. DN was very respectable as just an incredibly intense psychological and ideological battle that continually becomes more close quarters. Didn't need to debase itself in the fashion it did.

[Anonymous No.11329005]

>>11328923
That’s the entire series

[Anonymous No.11329062]

God damn death note is fantastic

[Anonymous No.11329110]

>>11328924
This. I usually hate this shit but it was interesting enough until he did they locked him in jail or whatever. Couldn't even bother to watch it after L died

[Anonymous No.11329123]

Monster >>>>> Death Note

[Anonymous No.11329129]

>>11329123
Monster is alright. Kinda lame in the last third though. And the end is turbolame

[Anonymous No.11329138]

>>11328267
Is this really the state of lit now? I was gone for a while, but in general it seemed like it had half competent people.
sage this crap. Bullshit crap thread.

[Anonymous No.11329194]

>>11328267
Raskolnikov vs Porfiry Petrovitch is better and is probably where the inspiration for death note's conflict between those two came from

[Anonymous No.11329210]

>>11329138
>sage this crap. Bullshit crap thread.
Please kill yourself. You're not wanted anywhere.

[Anonymous No.11329217]

>>11329138
Its nothing but anime, video games and sci-fi now. Christ even /tv/ have their film generals here now and then

[Anonymous No.11329227]

>>11329194
Not enough content to make it stand out. It was a nice element, but that wasn’t the book’s main purpose

[Anonymous No.11329314]

>>11328267
Wait wtf, there just doesn't exist a book where the main theme is a battle of wit between two caracters? Did no one really do it?

[Anonymous No.11329422]

>>11329194
Youre not wrong, but dosto ripped that from Javert and Valjean

[Anonymous No.11329765]

>>11328597
Hell yeah, came here to say this.

[Anonymous No.11329882]

>>11328267

[Anonymous No.11329960]

>>11329138
It's summer.

[Anonymous No.11329970]

Light should have won, what a dumb way to end the series. Mikami analyzed the book with a telescope each time to make sure it was the right one, some random dude from the FBI made an exact copy of that in less than a day? You think someone as autistic as him wouldn't notice.

[Anonymous No.11330721]

>>11329970
Light was too careless. It went downhill the moment “L” came on the big screen. As for the book, I’m sure they used the best techniques and put a lot of effort into it. They are trying to stop a killer, after all.

[Anonymous No.11330768]

>>11328835

This just sounds like Tubular Bells with a couple notes shifted slightly.

[Anonymous No.11330887]

>>11328797
i will wait with your oneitis bouncing on my dick

[Anonymous No.11331070]

Death Note Part 1 was true kino.

Death Note Part 2 was trash aside from the ending.

[Anonymous No.11331078]

>>11329123
Ehhhh no, Monster dragged. It needed to be wayyyy shorter. Death Note was tighter even with the crappy second act.

[Anonymous No.11331092]

>>11328916
Pic related

>>11329138
>>11329217
The only reason why manga isn't allowed to be discussed here but graphic novels are despite them being literally the same thing is the admins autism. Manga is literally sold at bookstores.

[Anonymous No.11331100]

>>11329123
Johan is the greatest villain of all time

[Anonymous No.11331165]

>>11329138
>>11329217
>>11329960

See >>11328828
Nobody has named any novels of worth yet, so my plan isn't really working.

[Anonymous No.11331194]

>tfw I'm the only person on the internet that actually liked Near and Mello and how their dynamic worked

[Anonymous No.11331205]

>>11328267
It is summer these are all 15-19 year old retards who don’t read, write or do anything besides discord and anime watching.

[Anonymous No.11331256]

>>11331205
Then recommend a novel that does a battle of wits better than death note if you think anime is degenerate. Or can you not even stand behind your words?

[Anonymous No.11331270]

>>11329138
/a/ is terrible and literally any other board is better to discuss animanga with.

[Anonymous No.11332467]

Someone said battle of wits?

[Anonymous No.11332874]

Here are some battle of wits-ish things you may or may not like.
Anime & Manga: Kaiji, Liar game, One outs, Death note, Tomodachi game, Alice in borderland (kinda), Kamisama no Iutoori, first arc of Promised Neverland
Games: Zero escape games, Ace attorney games, Danganronpa games, Umineko
Novels: And then there were none, Zaregoto Series, Usotsuki Mii-kun to Kowareta Maa-chan (maybe)

[Anonymous No.11332919]

>>11332874
I feel generous OP, so I'll write up a short summary of my recommendations.
Kaiji is about a loser that ends up in high risk gambles in the criminal underworld where he has to cheat or outsmart his opponent to win.
Liar game has characters join a game where they have to outsmart eachother where they bend the rules and come up with clever tactics to win.
One outs is about a man playing baseball. He isn't very good at it physically, but he fucks up the other team with bizarre, psychological tactics to win.
Tomodachi game is about a group of friends trapped in a game for money, however they all have motives for betraying eachother so it revolves around finding the one that fucks everyone else over by using psychological traps.
Alice in Borderland is a dystopian world where people have to participate in death games to survive. These games range from physical tests to psychological battles (like blackjack full of cheaters).
Kamisama no Iutoori has characters trapped in, you guessed it, a death game. Like the others, it revolves around characters outsmarting eachother to survive.
Promised Neverland has young children trapped in a orphanage to become food for aliens. To escape, they gotta outsmart the adults by setting up baits, traps, complicated plans etc. The first arc is very, very enjoyable but it goes from battle of wits to adventure in around 30 chapters.

Zero escape games have characters trapped in yet another death game. It's less of a battle of wits between characters, and more of a mystery with tons of puzzle elements and figuring out what the fuck is even going on.
Ace attorney games have you play as a lawyer. You take up cases, find clues, enter trial and prove that the defendant is innocent. The interactions between you and the prosecutor are really enjoyable.
Danganronpa have you play as one of 16 students trapped in a school. To get out, you have to kill another student and get away with it. After a murder, they investigate, gather clues, and hold a class trial where you gotta find whodunnit.
Umineko has the protagonist Battler face off against the antagonist Beatrice about a massacre that happens in the game. It's an enjoyable logic vs magic game where the characters use fucked up logic and fallacies to prove their point.
I haven't read And then there were none nor Zaregoto, but its next in line for me and they have potential.

[Anonymous No.11332943]

>>11332874
>>11332919
>>>/a/

[Anonymous No.11332945]

>>11331270
>Literally
Ye, try doing that on /pol/

[Anonymous No.11333029]

>>11328267
I haven't read Death Note, but here are some works that feature a battle of wits and/or a plotline that is like a careful chess game among/between highly skilled players (usually with at least one clever character devising schemes):

/lit/:
Father Brown (various criminals)
Agatha Christie's works, obviously
Crime and Punishment (Raskolnikov)
Dracula (title character)
The Man Who Was Thursday

/tv/:
Jessica Jones season 1 (Kilgrave)
Elite Squad 2: The Enemy Within (various political/military/police figures)

Multiple media:
Sherlock Holmes (various villains and often the title character as well)
a number of Batman stories (different villains)

[Anonymous No.11333061]

>>11328596
>>11328799
>>11328820
>>11328830
I don't normally like anime, but I loved Death Note. It's common to think that the series went downhill about halfway through, and I agree with that. However, reading/watching the beginning of the series is always entertaining, and I wish I could experience the twists and turns for the first time again.

[Anonymous No.11333142]

>>11329123
Kino

[Anonymous No.11333208]

>>11331100

[Anonymous No.11333421]

William of Baskerville vs. Jorge of Burgos.

Honestly, Death Note could have been a lot better. It had a wonderful ethical conundrum at its core that was glossed over for more OMG melodramatic bullshit that would put an Indian Soap Opera to shame and much of the "battle of wits" seemed like shit someone who doesn't know much about anything serious in depth but loves playing logical "gotcha" games divorced from reality would cook up.

That said, it's a fucking show for Japanese teenagers so expecting it to fucking debate the moral imperative or go in depth on actual criminal profiling is expecting too much of it.

[Anonymous No.11333722]

>>11329882
What's this from?

[Anonymous No.11333729]

>>11331194
It was a neat idea but it fucking draaaagged.

[Anonymous No.11334423]

>>11333722
as far as I'm aware, it's from a Death Note novelization. I don't know more than that.

[Anonymous No.11334443]

>11329138
I thought this crap thread would have disappeared by now, but I don't really think anime or manga can't be art, contrary to what some dimwit weebs said, these days there is practically no difference between the two, both are shit, and of course, things like ginga no eyiuu densetsu are god tier works, but death note? Really? kiddy teen stuff with retarded writer that did not have the balls to explore morality and human conscience deeper.

[Anonymous No.11334466]

>>11328267

[Anonymous No.11334721]

>>11328267
You should try Akagi. It's about a Mahjong genius gambling in the yakuza underworld. It's extremely good so far - I haven't finished it.

[Anonymous No.11334730]

>>11328596
Yes, you would probably. Read the manga though. Even the number of episodes in it has meaning. If you like traditional board games, I also recommend Hikaru no Go and Akagi. Akagi is a bit more mature than Hikaru no Go, but both are great for analysis of strategic inner and outer gameplay in a competitive game setting.

What I want to see personally is a series or novel like this centered on Chess.

[Anonymous No.11334740]

>>11334443
Deathnote is the epitome of a shonen manga. Yes, shonen (young boys); it is a kid's manga - so what? Watership Down is a children's novel, so is Call of the Wild and Alice's Adventures in Wonderland - they're still great.

[Anonymous No.11334761]

>>11328596
DN does it better

[Anonymous No.11334770]

>>11328267
Asspulls and retardsd shit, the anime

It's one of those 'smart people written for stupid people' animes.

[Anonymous No.11334778]

george smiley vs karla in le carre's spy novels. actual battle of wits

[Anonymous No.11334781]

Death Note is shit.

[Anonymous No.11334791]

>>11333421
I felt like the first episode or two were promising. By that point the writer had run out ideas so started introducing a ton of 'unwritten rules' into the mix to suit whatever 'clever' plan Light had up his sleeve next.

I really enjoyed it when I was 13 but the flaws are too obvious when I try to rewatch it.

[Anonymous No.11334794]

>>11331092
since when are """graphic novels""" allowed here

[Anonymous No.11334832]

Psycho Pass 1 is alright too

[Anonymous No.11334947]

>>11328830
That's not the point, that is the premise

[Anonymous No.11334950]

>>11334794
You must be on this website by an accident

[Anonymous No.11335120]

>>11333061
I agree with you. Death Note fell off when L died, it was never the same.

[Anonymous No.11335191]

>>11331194
me too

[Anonymous No.11335240]

>>11329194
This.

[Anonymous No.11335322]

>>11328580
you're talking about Sherlock, aren't you.

[Anonymous No.11335352]

>>11328267
Looking at this thread, nobody can prove you wrong. You won OP.

[(Hype)rion No.11335488]

It's amazing how this board would sperge at the slightest mention of graphic novels while praising anime, and not even manga.

[Anonymous No.11335503]

>>11334950
?¿?¿?
every time some sperg from /co/ shows up here and starts talking about how comics are literature the entire board laughs at him and the janny deletes his thread on his weekly visit to the board

[Anonymous No.11335756]

>>11335352
Quite the shame to me, actually.

[Anonymous No.11335761]

>>11335488
You really need some help on this one? It's not praising "anime," you're so fucking stupid. I hate this board so fucking much.

[Anonymous No.11335771]

>>11329194
There's really no battle of the wits in there. Porfiry figures it out immediately and then just keeps toying with Raskolnikov until he gives in. The one time R wins over P happens only because an unpredictable third party messed things up

[Anonymous No.11337303]

>>11335756
Me too man, but I love what was attempted here. It's rare to see people desperately searching for more battle of wits as I have for what seems like forever. Naturally, I knew the thread would turn out this way, although I was hoping for someone to prove otherwise. I've sucked dry pretty much everything you could remotely call battle of wits. Liar Game stands supreme at the top, followed by the few in existence remaining already mentioned in this thread.

As a person who's read literally everything that even sounds like it could be battle of wits, how the fuck is the battle of wits "genre" so scarce? It's some of the most exciting and genius shit ever written and I'm so confused why there isn't loads more of it.

Serious question though, have you(or anyone) looked into generic action movie/cat and mouse pursuit type books? I haven't really read many of them, but I picked up some random obscure one about a cop hunting down a hitman and it actually seems to match up to Death Note pretty well so far. Both characters are employing intelligent strategies back and forth while taunting each other and it captures the excitement and tension excellently, so I'm wondering if this is the norm of the genre or I just found the diamond in some shit. Maybe generic action movies are secretly a battle of wits goldmine.

[Anonymous No.11337554]

>>11337303
The problem with battle of wits as a genre is that it is way too broad to actually consider it a genre. It's more of a trope or trait that's present in a media. Imagine looking for movies/books for the sole purpose of watching a chase sequence.
If we try to define battle of wits, we get different definitions based on who we ask. Light vs L and Holmes vs Moriarty are the real obvious ones where we have two rivals that fight for their ideals by trying to outplay each other. However, if we look at what people have suggested in this thread such as "Kaiji" or "Phoenix Wright", the whole battle of wits thing gets really vague. Sure, Kaiji gets stuck in a gamble where the odds are against his favor, but more often than not, he gets saved either by sheer luck, an external force or a classic "I prepared this beforehand" that death note loves to pull.
And while both Kaiji and Death note are very different types of manga, they still scratch that same itch. If I were to give a clear definition of battle of wits, it would be a medium where the protagonist and antagonist doesn't directly fight each other. No pulling out a gun, or fighting with fists, but instead a psychological thriller where the characters have to scheme to actually get what they want. This is exactly what I mean by saying that battle of wits can't be a clear genre, but rather a trope used in different degrees.
The absolute best way to narrow down media that actually has battle of wits is to research how conflicts get resolved. Let's say we have a detective thriller where a serial killer kidnaps his daughter. Do the detective resort to violence, abandoning his ways and becoming the murderer?Or does he investigate it more properly, following clues etc.? They're both part of the same genre, but the way the protagonist resolves conflicts are extremely different.
This "routine" doesn't always work though. For example, even fucking naruto uses the battle of wits tropes in some of its fights and that's very difficult to discern without actually watching the right parts of the show. JoJo's Bizarre adventure works in similar fashion, where they just outwit each other with their powers.
Detective novels, crime novels (they're probably the same thing), whodunnit's, gambling things, death games, psychological thrillers are all genres that very often resort to battle of wits to keep things interesting. Who the fuck wants to read a fictional book about poker where nobody cheats nor uses special tactics/bluffs to win?
If you want an example/suggestion watch the korean movies "Oldboy (2003)" and "Handmaiden". Oldboy is a chase 'em and beat 'em but still resorts to a battle of wits between the two characters and how it can be implemented within an action movie. Handmaiden on the other hand has no fighting, no violence, just pure manipulation, schemes and whatever else comes with the package. Or you can look up battle of wits on TVTropes.

[Anonymous No.11337566]

>>11337554
What are you saying? Get a life

[Anonymous No.11338036]

>>11337566
Don't dismiss him like that, he put a lot of thought into his post.