Who was the Bach of literature?

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Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:32:17 2018 No.10963018 [Reply] [Original]

Who was the Bach of literature?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:38:35 2018 No.10963040 Well first off, who was the Bach of music?

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:39:09 2018 No.10963042 >>10963018 Aquinas

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:41:36 2018 No.10963052 >>10963040 Fuck off t. Wittgenstein

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:42:10 2018 No.10963053 >>10963018 I don't know, anyone flowery, redundant, and with nothing to say.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:44:39 2018 No.10963064 Shakespeare!

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:45:09 2018 No.10963065 >>10963018 Percy Bysshe Shelley

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:46:00 2018 No.10963067 Shakespeare. Both are A1.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:51:13 2018 No.10963083 Proust

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:53:58 2018 No.10963095 File: 18 KB, 512x382, jej.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10963083

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 21:54:00 2018 No.10963096 chaucer. shakespeare was the velazquez. mark twain was the john ford

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 22:43:12 2018 No.10963268 >>10963053 Please don't bully Bach. >>10963096 >chaucer best answer

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 22:50:49 2018 No.10963291 Literature, as with music, didn't get good until the late 19th/early 20th century. In other words, your question is worthless.

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 22:53:49 2018 No.10963303 >>10963018 E. T. A. Hoffmann

>>	Anonymous Fri Apr 6 23:35:27 2018 No.10963491 >>10963291 t. undergrad

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 01:06:26 2018 No.10963721 >>10963291 kys

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 01:16:50 2018 No.10963767 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qz2MfXTsk0

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 01:41:11 2018 No.10963856 >>10963767 stop.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 02:07:53 2018 No.10963963 >>10963053 stupid STUPID

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 04:53:10 2018 No.10964482 >>10963018 Chaucer

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 05:00:27 2018 No.10964505 >>10963291 damn that's fucking stupid man

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 05:01:51 2018 No.10964512 >>10963018 Leibniz

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:16:08 2018 No.10964856 >>10963291 wow I've never seen such an ignorant statement. Like you have to be at least american to be on this level of absurdity.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:23:14 2018 No.10964875 >>10963018 Friedrich Schiller

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:26:38 2018 No.10964882 >>10964512 this

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:43:10 2018 No.10964914 >>10964875 Goethe > Schiller

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:49:06 2018 No.10964930 definitely shakespeare

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 07:55:15 2018 No.10964939 >>10963291 start with the greeks

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 09:11:04 2018 No.10965151 >>10963018 milton

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 09:12:53 2018 No.10965153 >>10963018 No one. He didn't compose any operas so you can't really compare themes between theme and literature.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 09:25:00 2018 No.10965190

>>10965153
actually he composed for oratorios, hymns and psalms, all of which themes can easily be recognized... Though, as Cioran said, God appears to be something secondary, comparing to the purity of his music, "if there is anyone who owes everything comparing to Bach, it is God"
Also, it's pretty sensible he celebrates everywhere the beauty of the world God created for him, with a baroch architecture and a mathematical coherence seemingly close to perfection. Hence I'll definitely say Leibniz,
I perceive in his harmonies the same kind of majestic serenity

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 09:28:06 2018 No.10965203 >>10965190 Yes but those are just Christmas/ Easter/ Christian spiritual things. It's not as if he came up with his own stories and libretti.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 09:37:35 2018 No.10965248 >>10963018 Julius Evola.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:46:46 2018 No.10966302 >>10963018 repetitive so Cervantes

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:48:41 2018 No.10966312 >>10963053 He said Bach, not Mozart

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:51:30 2018 No.10966331 >>10965151 This

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:52:32 2018 No.10966338 >>10964875 More so Schubert Too an extent Goethe as well.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:54:10 2018 No.10966345 >>10966312 bad post bad poster

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:55:53 2018 No.10966357 >>10963018 Goethe >>10963042 >>10963052 >>10963064 >>10963065 >>10963083 >>10963096 >>10964482 >>10964875 >>10965248 >>10966302 bad opinions >>10965151 >>10964875 >>10964512 >>10963303 decent opinions

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:58:06 2018 No.10966368 >>10963018 (OP) Goethe >>10963042 >>10963052 >>10963064 >>10963065 >>10963083 >>10963096 >>10964482 >>10964875 >>10965248 >>10966302 bad opinions >>10965151 >>10964512 >>10963303 decent opinions

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 13:58:08 2018 No.10966369 >>10966345 no, u

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 14:41:12 2018 No.10966596 de Vega

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:35:52 2018 No.10967128

>>10963053
I have a masters in music theory and i've noticed that literally everyone who thinks mozart > bach is a literal idiot with only very superficial understanding of music theory/history. Bach transcended romanticism as well as the classical period before they started, literally zero progess was made between bach and wagner (who essentially shook life back into the western music tradition after bach gave it a heart attack). If you think mozart > bach you are either A: in your second or third year of piano lessions B: a grandpa who listens to classical music in the background of your newspaper-reading or C: i have no idea, someone incomprehensibly stupid

>>10963018
as for op, if Kant, Joyce and Shakespeare were one person, it'd be that person

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:43:58 2018 No.10967161 Goethe

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:45:44 2018 No.10967166 >>10967128 Quite incredible, a person with a masters in music and quite poor aesthetic judgement. Might have gotten a masters in engineering instead, for it all comes down to "progress".

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:50:30 2018 No.10967178 >>10967128 Shut up. Bach is garbage. It's fucking mall music. You're shitty expensive paper doesn't mean shit.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:56:47 2018 No.10967201

>>10967128
>he outfuturised the futurists
Imagine being this stupid after paying tutors for 8 years.
Also, Bach didn't outdo anything because he was completely forgotten. Conservative revisionists brought him back in theory to revive their political position. He is considered a great because of politics, not because of his actual works.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:58:14 2018 No.10967207 >>10967201 muh conservatives

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:59:01 2018 No.10967212 >>10967128 >>10967166 as these posters show it's a matter of taste. From a music theory standpoint Bach may be insurmountable but some people might find Mozart to be much more aesthetically pleasing.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 16:59:19 2018 No.10967215 >>10967207 Putting muh in front of something doesn't invalidate someone's argument.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:00:03 2018 No.10967219 >>10963018 What do you mean by literature? If it's the humanities I would say Hegel

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:01:36 2018 No.10967226 >>10967128 >Kant, Joyce and Shakespeare So autism, fart fetishism and dick jokes = Bach?

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:08:18 2018 No.10967260

>>10967166
I didnt even say anything with regards to how much i "like" bach (i like both him and mozart, and since i had piano as my main instrument and organ as my 2nd i can actually play huge chunks of both's repertoire), i simply spoke about how most influence he had on the development of tonality, which is undeniable, something that shows that calling him someone with "nothing to say" is retarded.

>>10967178
Are you a fuckign idiot? Like, is the opening to WTC the only bach peiece you've heard? You can find intense pieces of music from both bach and mozart, but the music mozart developed is used as background music far more frequently than bach's. Putting something like bwv 582 on in the background is wasteful (and literally never happens) as works that heavily contrapuntal sound pretty pointless unless you're concentrating on the music.

>>10967201
Thats only a half-truth, and even if it was true it does not change that bach was influential and is the most widely studied classical musician. If paradise lost was lost in some archive and wasnt discovered before today, it wouldnt reduce the quality of the work, but the influence of the work would still be zero.

>>10967212
Yeah. It is a matter of taste. So is books though. You can argue that you dont find Ulysses fun or emotional, and that you get more out of reading the hunger games, but that wont change the fact that ulysses is a more infulential work.

>>10967226
Funny you say that as mozart was a legit furry. I'll grant you that bach probably had some degree of autism though.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:12:58 2018 No.10967275

>>10967260
>Yeah. It is a matter of taste. So is books though. You can argue that you dont find Ulysses fun or emotional, and that you get more out of reading the hunger games, but that wont change the fact that ulysses is a more infulential work.
Comparing Mozart to the Hunger Games isn't really that fair.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:14:49 2018 No.10967282 File: 6 KB, 235x215, angry.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10967275 >ida no fair

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:20:34 2018 No.10967311

>>10967275
Yeah it is. They obviously arent the same caliber, and i never said mozart dont have merit, i simply said that bach had more influence on western music theory. If someone said "i think mozart sounds better than bach" i'd have zero problems, my favourite composers didnt really have any influence on the western tradition. The point is that we're comparing this to books, and bach is in my opinion, the biggest western composer, and has to be compared with the most infulentical authors. Mozart is certainly up there as well, and comparing him to the hungergames is retarded. The Bible vs Dante's inferno is probably a fair comparison though.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:21:25 2018 No.10967314 >>10967207 True though. And Bach came at the end of the baroque period, so it's funny how this guy (you?) is trying to credit him with progress and conservatism at the same time.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:29:08 2018 No.10967342

>>10967260
>MUH INFLUENCE
Again, never said shit about Mozart. And bringing "Ulysses" into this only discredits you even further.
In any case, the real history shows that Bach wasn't that influential at all because he was born after all of the developments had taken place (literally 100 years after the true innovators). This only gives more weight to what I am saying, Bach held onto the old music style even after it was dead, and it was politics that pushed him being an innovator (ironic considering the ideological backing of the argument).

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:30:36 2018 No.10967349 >>10967311 >has Masters degree >doesn't get basic logic MUH INNUHVAESHUN!!!!!!!!

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:34:51 2018 No.10967367 Goethe is the correct answer itt.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:35:46 2018 No.10967371 >>10967342 Show me a 5 voice fugue with invertible counterpoint published 100 years before Bach. >>10967349 >muh logic

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:38:01 2018 No.10967378 >>10967367 It's Leibniz tho

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:40:55 2018 No.10967394 >>10967371 >being this retarded lmao. Get fugue with your theoretical music, faggot.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:43:03 2018 No.10967407 >>10967342 No one sees him as an innovator.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:45:30 2018 No.10967419 >>10967371 >Show me a 5 voice fugue with invertible counterpoint published 100 years before Bach. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3n8XdKkrqgo Dumb motherfucker.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:48:07 2018 No.10967435 >>10967407 Are Bach fans all retarded?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:48:40 2018 No.10967439 Brainlets always waste their breath defending Bach. As if sublimity needs defending. Personally I'd say that literature never had a Bach and never will. Bach was a unique event. He's basically Jesus as far as I'm concerned.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:48:49 2018 No.10967442 >>10967419 >hurr this is fugual writing not an actual fugue!!1! Shut the FUCK up you subhuman fucking piece of shit https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd2_r4PK5dc

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:50:13 2018 No.10967451 >>10967439 >the principle of non-contradiction >mystics

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:54:28 2018 No.10967468 >>10967451 It's to cast not pearls before swine. You don't approach Bach's music it approaches you when your soul is able to receive it. Bach is the Logos in music form. Many dim souls in this thread.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:57:56 2018 No.10967487 >>10967260 So as far as you're concerned, musical quality is identical with influence.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:59:16 2018 No.10967496

>>10967201
Bach is after Beethoven the single most admired composer who has ever lived. The list of admirers is truly astounding. I strongly doubt that almost all of the greatest composers since Bach only liked him because of politics.

>>10967314
He came at the end of the baroque period because people later on chose to set the year it ended to coincide with his death.

>>10967212
This is the problem I have with most people and their attitudes towards Mozart. He wrote extremely complex and subtle music with great emotional power that he had to dress up as if it were fluff. Most people either dislike him because they think there isn't much to his music because of their musical ignorance or they like him because of that very same reason.

>>10967407
>>10967342
>Bach held onto the old music style even after it was dead
>No one sees him as an innovator
He was an incredibly innovative composer during the majority of his life, it's only at the end where he looked back at least a hundred years and wrote things like The Art of Fugue and The Musical Offering. He spent the rest of his life at the cutting edge of what was happening at the time. A great many people who lived at the time, including many of his employers disliked his music for being too modern.
Even his late works like The Art of Fugue, while being out of fashion as a style are still extremely forward looking in the intense malleability of tonal centers and chromatic movement/mode mixture to such an extent that it could be argued that it's not until Wagner that we get anything to match it.

>>10967311
If we are going by influence than I find it hard to argue that Bach was more influential than Beethoven.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 17:59:17 2018 No.10967495 >>10963018 Bach's music seems like it was written for the player piano. Truly a man ahead of his time.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:03:01 2018 No.10967510 >>10967496 >bach autists Bach's in the top tier of composers, but nowhere near composers like Mozart, Vivaldi or Beethoven. He's been severely overrated by protestants.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:03:29 2018 No.10967513 >>10967439 Always with the hubris from Bachliebers.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:04:32 2018 No.10967519 >>10967510 Vivaldi is nowhere near the other 3.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:04:58 2018 No.10967523 >>10967510 Agree, but would like to see the protestant argument clarified.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:05:16 2018 No.10967525 You mean the Chopin of literature?

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:05:40 2018 No.10967526

>>10967212
Mozart's music is superior in art, craft, and humanity, to that of Bach. By a few orders of magnitude, actually. Beethoven would come near. Palestrina frequently approaches Mozart. But Mozart is the greatest, by far. He's the most underrated composer in history.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:07:02 2018 No.10967530 >>10967496 >He came at the end of the baroque period because people later on chose to set the year it ended to coincide with his death. https://youtu.be/lrJz9Dh5MsM

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:08:24 2018 No.10967535 >>10967442 Still not an actual fugue and not even proper invertible counterpoint. Palestrinas counterpoint was far less sophisticated anyways.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:08:26 2018 No.10967536

>>10967519
Even if you, as I suspect, had only a minor knowledge of Vivaldi, even the experience of tremendously popular works such as the "Four Seasons" or his other early violin concerti should suffice to rank him among the greatest. Yet his sacred music is far, far superior to his profane, be it instrumental or operatic, music; and this sacred music of his should place him as the third member of the Godhead of music, namely that of Mozart, Beethoven and Vivaldi.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:09:40 2018 No.10967544 >>10967536 That reads like the Rick and Morty copypasta lol

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:10:29 2018 No.10967551 >>10967544 haha, lol

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:11:56 2018 No.10967558 what do you think about Pergolesi? what's the literary equivalent?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:12:45 2018 No.10967563 >>10967558 Corneille.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:24:17 2018 No.10967607

>>10967536
>>10967510
No one, and I mean no one ranks Vivaldi as higher than Bach. Vivaldi has an immense gift at creative use of his instruments to create an enormousness amount of energy. He is also a very talented writer of melody. This is why he is so popular. However these are only a stylistic element. The actual content that it is applied over is simple. His bass lines just plod along. There is none of the sophistication of the counterpoint between melody and bass as in Bach. His inner parts outside of codas are as basic as they could possible be. The voice leading is so simple and obvious. Even when he varies this to create excitement it's usually just octave changes or chord tones.
Harmonically is music is standard for the time. You can find the same sorts of progressions with any of his contemporaries. Compare that to any of Bach's large scale pieces like the overture to the Saint Mathew Passion or even the jarring none diatonic harmonies that aren't mode mixtures that can pop up in some of his chorales.

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:30:19 2018 No.10967644

>>10967607
Every single thing you've said was false, but I don't really want to educate you, I don't really have any interest right now to forcibly drag you from your mediocrity, so I'll leave you to just gobbling the opinions of autists who base their evaluation of music on faulty premises they know will result in Bach's music being superior.
Vivaldi's bass lines "plodding along"? Jesus fucking Christ. Bach is a drunken mass of flesh, out of which nothing honest ever came. His music is deceitful and mostly in bad taste. As always, protestants will come and defend his music, and as always, the basis of their judgement of composers... will be those set according to Bach's own music.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:33:16 2018 No.10967656 >>10967607 hmm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QA1L0SsEXxU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqMzfJWfa9k

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:37:40 2018 No.10967667 >>10967607 >several people in this thread >no one MUH BACH IZ GAHD NN SHHEEEEIT!

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:38:24 2018 No.10967670

>>10967644
Bach's music never lacked in soul, but it always lacked in breath. He's dragging along, and you can feel it. The man cannot dance. He whimpers behind the rhythm like an overweight asthmatic teenager. He knew his music was dishonest, which is why he never wrote an opera.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kf5XQLO76uo

Listen to this shit.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:39:44 2018 No.10967675 >>10967670 rendition is everything https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DClyWF4pD2I

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:43:19 2018 No.10967693 File: 217 KB, 1066x600, 943FFA68-DC34-419F-867B-7B6B4AAA60EC.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10963053 >Bach >Flowery

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:43:23 2018 No.10967694 >>10967675 I chose this one because it's one of Bach's better works as to rhythm, and I didn't want to be accused of picking his lesser works. This performance exhibits the same characteristics, though. His music is static.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:47:20 2018 No.10967714 >>10967367 He does give off that Bach vibe, especially with having a massive catalogue full of random shit and being known for just being Goethe. But his actual content isn’t very Bach at all.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:50:58 2018 No.10967727 search Spinoza: 0 results I'm disappoint, lit

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:52:12 2018 No.10967737 >>10967693 I mean... Baroque connotes flowery, doesn't it? And vice versa?

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:55:30 2018 No.10967754 >>10967693 My bad, it's actually minimalistic, restrained, grey and forested...

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:55:32 2018 No.10967755 File: 10 KB, 384x238, zelda-cdi-king-harkinian.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] Ba(ru)ch Spinoza

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 18:57:27 2018 No.10967766 who's the schwarzenegger of shitposting? who's the spinoza of cooking?

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:16:09 2018 No.10967864

>>10967694
its not a bach-specific trait, the style of that whole era revolves around modulations or quick deformations of the key, but no highlights in rhythm. according to furtwaengler one cant max out on dynamics of all three components: melody, harmony, rhythm, without overloading the ear of the listener and becoming pretentious anyway.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:29:26 2018 No.10967922 >>10967766 August Strindberg Gordon Ramsay

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:45:17 2018 No.10967992 >>10967128 >I have a masters in music theory and call other people idiots lmao

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:45:36 2018 No.10967994 >>10963018 Tolkien

Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:47:44 2018 No.10968003

>>10967644
>so I'll leave you to just gobbling the opinions of autists
>I am right and everyone in academia is wrong
>Almost every great composer who lived after Bach is wrong
I'm glad that you are so educated that you are one of the most musically intelligent people to have ever lived whose single opinion is so massive that you don't even have to provide evidence for you incredibly unpopular opinion among experts and composers.
If you want I can point you to literature that talks of the relative simplicity of Vivaldi's music. I in fact finished a book to that effect a few weeks ago. It was Talbot's book in The Dent Master Musicians book series on composers.

>Vivaldi's bass lines "plodding along"? Jesus fucking Christ
At random I opened up several compositions by him to read and they all have plodding bass lines. Pic related's bass line was octave spacing and playing 3rds and 5ths with little rhythmic interest and no attempt to have melodic interest. Occasionally in this composition there is a short diatonic scale run to connect chord tones, that's about it. It was exactly the same in all of the compositions I opened.
You can value the things with which Vivaldi wanted to achieve in his music over Bach but it is factually untrue to favorably compare Vivaldi to Bach in terms of complexity or subtitle of technique of his music.

There I have presented you with textual and musical evidence. Everything you have said has been but an assertion. Provide evidence for your case.

>>10967667
I was talking about composers and academics, not no names on 4chan.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 19:48:51 2018 No.10968009 File: 255 KB, 1371x785, plodders gonna plod.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10968003 Forgot pic.

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 21:06:48 2018 No.10968317 >>10967670 >>10967675 >implying that was composed by Bach

>>	Anonymous Sat Apr 7 21:08:30 2018 No.10968326 >>10967128 crazy how all these pseuds don’t understand Bach is the God of music, no one will ever come even vaguely within his level of genius. Magnificent stupidity in this thread

Anonymous Sun Apr 8 03:54:24 2018 No.10969671

>>10967166
>>10967178
>>10967201
proof that kikes are everywhere

they really hate Wagner of course, and they hate anything good and german and free

piece of shit kike brainwashed drones, kike software running on ~human hardware

daily reminder that within a few years we will have to kill every last one of these monsters or be subjugated to eternal slavery so deep our spirit can never be rekindled again

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 03:57:08 2018 No.10969675 >>10967128 Bach is the best thing to happen to music period. The organ series is like a goddamn Iliad

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 04:48:59 2018 No.10969743 >>10969671 >they really hate Wagner of course, and they hate anything good and german and free You got any proof on that? Lots of Jews like Wagner, and though anti-Semitic, he had several Jewish friends

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 04:51:14 2018 No.10969746 >>10968326 >Magnificent stupidity tip

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 06:28:14 2018 No.10969946 >>10969671 >hate anything good and german and free Mozart? Haydn? Viennese Classicism?

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 07:34:46 2018 No.10970130 >>10963018 Adorno

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 14:03:34 2018 No.10971506 >>10963018 ovid

Anonymous Sun Apr 8 14:15:58 2018 No.10971574

>>10969743
>and though anti-Semitic, he had several Jewish friends
>"friends"
Wagner ruthlessly exploited everyone he knew. His Jewish "friends" were only friends because they were useful to him. Wagner was an eternal hypocrite who would sell out his ideals for the sound of money. When he wrote Parsifal we attempted to have his Jewish "friend" Hermann Levi barred from conducting it because he didn't want a Jew to premier his music drama with heavy anti-Semitic undertones.
Just as an example Liszt (who wasn't Jewish) literally saved Wagner's life, promoted his music before he started to gather a larger audience and lent him money freely. Not only did Wagner never reciprocate any act of kindness he cucked Liszt's son in law who he was extremely fond of with his daughter in an extremely humiliating manner utterly devastating Liszt.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 14:57:28 2018 No.10971741 >>10971574 >stupid nonesense Liszt was the Johnny Depp of his times.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 15:08:29 2018 No.10971824 >>10971574 He was a repulsive dwarf with bouts of arrogance and sentimentality, but a good composer.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 15:16:55 2018 No.10971882 >>10963018 Collin Yost.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 17:40:17 2018 No.10972607 >>10963018 Goethe

Anonymous Sun Apr 8 18:40:48 2018 No.10972947

>>10968009
Congratulations, you found the worst possible example.

Vivaldi's bass line is fundamentally a harmonic feature, whereas Bach's is deeply contrapuntal. Their goals are not the same, and you wish to understand Vivaldi's bass movements as a non-movement (in the case you just posted), while a quick glance at the picture you used will inform you that we are dealing with a cadence. In the case of deeply harmonic music like that of Vivaldi's ---who, early on, attempted a synthesis of harmony and counterpoint---, of course, a cadence like the one you posted, full and replete with the schenkerian 3-2-1, will exhibit a simple bass line, in this case a movement between tonic and dominant.

However, I believe Bach's bassline does not resolve the tension between a harmonic and contrapuntal understanding of bass movement, and his bass rather fills in the gaps between important tonal functions with arpeggiated runs, which result in a muddled and confused sound, as in BWV 1060.

Compare with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsiaT8gmjYY, where the bass is much more melodic in nature, which maintaining a strong harmonic drive, which Bach's bass lines often lack.

>>	Anonymous Sun Apr 8 22:29:43 2018 No.10974052 File: 572 KB, 640x920, 1522194831699.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] >>10969671 >typical wagnercuck autistically screeching about jews

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 9 00:14:12 2018 No.10974537 >>10963053 >>10963053 Don’t count yourself with all that edge

Anonymous Mon Apr 9 01:30:36 2018 No.10974907

>>10972947
>Vivaldi's bass line is fundamentally a harmonic feature, whereas Bach's is deeply contrapuntal
I'm just quoting this so you know to what paragraph I am referring to. I am not responding to that point in particular. The whole paragraph only takes issue with the single example I took to prove my point, not with the point I was making.
On that note though I would say it's not Vivaldi's bass, it is Vivaldi himself who is fundamentally harmonic. The concerti, the opera, the sacred music of his I have heard are all harmonic. Which was my whole point to begin with. He is a harmonic composers, whose harmonies are fairly tame but it's rapped up within incredibly energetic melodies with are usually doubled or accompanied by plain middle parts dressed up interesting rhythmic configurations that move between chord tones of the harmonies or octaves. It gives his music an immense sense of motion but it isn't particularly complex and complexity is one of the chief reasons (though not the only one) that make composers like Beethoven and Bach almost gods to composers and musicologists. Which is something that takes us all the way back to the start. I like Vivaldi but no one seriously places him at the godhead of classical music, certainly not ahead of Bach.

>where the bass is much more melodic in nature, which maintaining a strong harmonic drive
Outside of the rhythmic pattern first seen in the first half of the second measure of the first movement there is very little that can be described as melodic about that bass. The rhythmic figure isn't even one that the bass does a lot. The rest of the time the bass almost exclusively does what I accused him of before, basic chord tones, scale runs between chord tones, shifting octaves and in this example a few appoggiatura approach notes (I have no idea if appoggiatura is a term that can be applied to the bass). I will give you that it has a strong harmonic drive, but it is not for the majority of the first movement melodic in any way other than superficially and quite often not even that with it being purely harmonic.

>BWV 1060
Bach's concerti he wrote as a young man before he had properly matured. All of his masterpieces are written after this point. Most of his concerti are modeled after a more Italian style than is usual for him so what you say of his bass is true but only of a specific part of his repertoire. Bach wasn't always a great composer.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CL00B8TQMBQ
This is a far better example of the sort melodic bass that is more than just a harmonic marker.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 9 01:53:32 2018 No.10975000 >>10971741 And him being the Johnny Depp of his times changes what exactly? This isn't r9k were only robots can feel bad.

>>	Anonymous Mon Apr 9 02:22:16 2018 No.10975104 BMV 542 and 572 are good ones

Anonymous Mon Apr 9 02:23:29 2018 No.10975109

>>10975000
I was responding to your vacuous ad hominem with more vacuous ad hominem.

What's wrong with people like you? It's always "Ezra Pound was mentally ill and totally overrated., Ginsberg was the greatest poet of the 20th century and could do no wrong."

If you force me to choose a side, I guess I'll have to choose Wagner. I care about the music, you care about the person, perhaps the tribe.

Anonymous Mon Apr 9 03:27:32 2018 No.10975341

>>10975109
>I was responding to your vacuous ad hominem with more vacuous ad hominem
I don't think you know what an ad hominem is. Pointing out someone is a terrible human being isn't an ad hominem.
I was responding to the claim of Wagner having Jewish friends with evidence from his life to dispute that. You are literally getting angry that someone used evidence to support an argument, falsely accuse me of a logical fallacy and then go on some unrelated tangent about liberals.

>What's wrong with people like you
>I have no argument so I shall reference people who aren't you so I can project their ideas onto you even though you don't hold them

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/lit/ - Literature