[ 3 / biz / cgl / ck / diy / fa / ic / jp / lit / sci / vr / vt ] [ index / top / reports ] [ become a patron ] [ status ]
2023-11: Warosu is now out of extended maintenance.

/lit/ - Literature

View post   
File: 32 KB, 276x361, hegel.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10841201 No.10841201 [Reply] [Original]

Where does this meme that you must start with the Phenomenology of Spirit to read Hegel, come from? The Shorter Logic is about a hundred times easier to read and actually comprehensible. It seems clear to me that Hegel improved his presentation later in life, and even though he may have initially intended for the Phenomenology to be an "introduction", he seems to have thought less and less of it with time. Which isn't surprising, given that the later works express its ideas much better.
I'm going to propose a radical idea here, and say that you should read the Phenomenology as the last work. The Encyclopedia of the Philosophical Sciences in Outline, and even Science of Logic, are better reads to get what he's on about.

>> No.10841207

>>10841201
I've never once heard anybody recommend that

>> No.10841208

>>10841207
This
Start with the lectures on philosophy of history.

>> No.10841215

>>10841201
Why read Hegel? As Schopenhauer said, "Hegel, installed from above, by the powers that be, as the certified Great Philosopher, was a flat-headed, insipid, nauseating, illiterate charlatan, who reached the pinnacle of audacity in scribbling together and dishing up the craziest mystifying nonsense. This nonsense has been noisily proclaimed as immortal wisdom by mercenary followers and readily accepted as such by all fools, who thus joined into as perfect a chorus of admiration as had ever been heard before. The extensive field of spiritual influence with which Hegel was furnished by those in power has enabled him to achieve the intellectual corruption of a whole generation."

>Read "The World as Will and Idea" instead.

>> No.10841219

>>10841215
virgin

>> No.10841232
File: 26 KB, 400x300, virgin.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10841232

>>10841215
>As Schopenhauer said

>> No.10841286

>>10841201
I'm having the exact same experience as you.

>> No.10841301

Why do you guys read Hegel? Is it just for fun? Idealism is long dead, and dialectics is just a meme.

>> No.10841309

>>10841301
If something is dead, surely we must first study its nature and processes to find out how it died, and what we can do about it.
Why is it so hard for you people to understand that people profit from studying some of the most influential minds in history?
You can think that literally everything Plato said was absolute bullshit, without taking away any of his importance and genius.
Do you think nobody should read the Bible in the 21st century?

>> No.10841312

>>10841219
>>10841232
please see >>10841217

>> No.10841352

>>10841215
>"Hegel, installed from above, by the powers that be, as the certified Great Philosopher,

what did he mean by this

>> No.10841385

>>10841215
He is right. Hegel's whole philosophy is basically an enabling of the world's elite to treat the rest of the population as cattle and make this not only morally ambiguous but inevitable. Wouldn't be surprised if there were some figures behind the curtain pushing his though to the forefront.

>> No.10841403

>>10841309
Bible is actually true though unlike Plato or Hegel.

>> No.10841412

>>10841352
Hegel was a shill for the Prussian government.

>> No.10841422

>>10841215
except schopenhauer is the mystic nonsense expert incarnate. i like him, but his ideas are myth and rubbish.

>> No.10842086

>>10841412
Hegel BTFO the Prussian Gov't they just never noticed. This is at the end of the preface to Philosophy of Right:
>Only one word more concerning the desire to teach the world what it ought to be. For such a purpose philosophy at least always comes too late.Philosophy, as the thought of the world, does not appear until reality has completed its formative process, and made itself ready. History thus corroborates the teaching of the conception that only in the maturity of reality does the ideal appear as counterpart to the real, apprehends the real world in its substance, and shapes it into an intellectual kingdom. When philosophy paints its grey in grey, one form of life has become old, and by means of grey it cannot be rejuvenated, but only known. The owl of Minerva takes its flight only when the shades of night are gathering.
Makes me kek every time

>> No.10842153

>>10841422
Oh yeah? Then let's see your Schopenhauer critique you big boy, come on.

>> No.10842309

What about Philosophy of History? I might read that one first. I've heard it's one of his more accessible books and I'm really interested in the ideas that are supposedly explained in the book

>> No.10842326

>>10841215
>Hegel continues to cause monumental butthurt in Schopenhauer and his followers centuries after both men are dead

>> No.10842328

>>10841201
Nobody is willing to say the emporer has no clothes and that Hegel is incoherent garbage because they're continental eurotards and commies who can't part with their false idol.

>> No.10842337

>>10842086
This sounds pretty Marxist desu.

>> No.10842339

>>10841215
This. You don't have to agree with Schoppy's philosophy, but you can at least recognise that Schop proposed an actual philosophical system and was coherent. Hegel is a myth to be seen through and laughed at.

>> No.10842347

>>10841422
Perhaps but at least it is a coherent idea that can be followed. Hegel is a confidence trick.

>> No.10842355
File: 33 KB, 395x373, 1513448306662.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10842355

>>10842328
>>10842339
>>10842347
If he's so obviously nonsense why are you so butthurt at people paying attention to him?

>> No.10842357

>>10842339
>>10842347
>samefagging brainlet needs a theory of everything and ideas to be followed
Ignoring the fact that Hegel offers both, this is pretty pathetic desu

>> No.10842376

>>10842355
Hegel is a pathway to communism. Incoherent Enlightenment mytholgies lead to ongoing real world problems. Once you suspend critical thinking to accept the Hegel is anything but drivil, you suspend critical thinking to accept other bad ideas that follow, like dialectical materialism or the surplus theory of value. Nip the mistake in the bud and admit Hegel is a mirage of Continental & Marxist vanity.

>> No.10842385

>>10842376
I don't know about that but I rather be a communist than a parmanently assblasted virgin like you and Schopenhauer

>> No.10842444

>>10841215
>when you don't have an argument
is Schopenhauer's philosophy just a big ad hominem?

>> No.10842463

As someone who likes Schopenhauer I don't endorse the autism directed at Hegel in this thread. Maybe this is why Schopenhauer is often ignored, because autists don't take his polemics against Hegel with a grain of salt and lose there spaghetti

>> No.10842484

>>10842463
They're people who just like him as le pessmist woman hater who don't have a clue about his ontology and aesthetic philosophy which is his real masterwork

>> No.10842500

>>10842463
*their

>> No.10842613

>>10842385
>Schopenhauer
>virgin
lmao

>> No.10842630
File: 131 KB, 866x900, 12441242121.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10842630

>>10842613
>Dude I was having like so much sex, sex all over the place, right in their vaginas trust me

t. Schopenhauer

>> No.10842651
File: 84 KB, 1307x549, 1429648213398.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10842651

>> No.10842737

>>10842630
Anon, even if you don't believe it, having sex is the norm, not the opposite.

>> No.10842838

Terry Pinkard's new translation seems really good guys

>> No.10842911

>>10841215
You read Hegel to understand all the insults in Fear and Trembling

>> No.10842945

>>10842339
>schopenhauer theory of everything
> muh fourtold root of sufficient reason and muh will

damn really makes you think

>> No.10842960
File: 71 KB, 360x360, 1317302878867.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10842960

>>10841301
>reading hegel for fun

>> No.10842966

>>10842086
You've got that from Zizek, didn't you?

>> No.10842981

>>10842376
>Hegel is a pathway to communism.
Nah, as long as you just stick to idealist Hegelianism instead of materialist Hegelianism you'll be fine. You'll end up with fascism but whatever.

>> No.10843502

>>10842911
Now this I can get into. Is it like when Hegel talks smack about pure Reason, as though it's just a trifling moment in the dialectic? God I hope so. I gave up reading philosophy for anything but banter a while ago. If I ever write a philosophical work, it's gonna have a Preface that will put Hegel's to shame

>> No.10843512

>>10842651
Kek

>> No.10843524

CHALLANGE
Write about Hegel's ideas without referring to the history of the idea or other philosophers.

>> No.10843543

>>10843524
>write about Hegel without referring to the history of ideas
>write about the phenomenology but ignore the parts where Hegel talks about Stoicism, Skepticism, pure Reason, the Thing-In-Itself, the Enlightenment, Christianity, Islam, Byronic Romanticism, the French Revolution, etc.

>> No.10843565

>>10842086
Damn this shit is beautiful

>> No.10843590

>>10842966
The point was made before Zizek, it was a common interpretation of the Young Hegelians

>> No.10843601

>>10842086
I mean in his book Hegel basically says the Prussian government (constitutional monarchy) isn't the end of his philosophy of right, but it's definitely closer to the end than, say, a stateless society in which the concepts of property and capital do not have an essential role

>> No.10843633

>>10843543
but

>by determining the relation which a philosophical work professes to have to other treatises on the same subject, an extraneous interest is introduced, and obscurity is thrown over the point at issue in the knowledge of the truth.

I have never seen a proper defense of this lunacy.

>> No.10843654

>>10843633
Hey man I agree, I'm only studying Hegel because I was curious why both literal Fascists and Communists cite him as an influence

>> No.10843820

>>10841301
Need more clarification. How are these ideas dead?

>> No.10843907

>>10842981
This.

>> No.10844734

>>10843524
But I already did that over almost 100 pages worth of text now. In fact, it's pretty much all I do when it comes to Hegel (and this makes other Hegel nerds rage for some reason).

http://empyreantrail.wordpress.com/

>> No.10844741

>>10843654
>why both literal Fascists and Communists
Mussolini was a commie with a hard-on for nationalism
Modern day fascists are retarded untermenschen

>> No.10844894
File: 126 KB, 647x656, Hegelwhoa.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10844894

>tfw finally starting to understand him
you guys weren't kidding, this is amazing
my mind is so blown right now

>> No.10845010

>>10844894
What's so mindblowing about it?

>> No.10845023

>>10842737
Not for ugly bald incel.

>> No.10845116

>>10845010
Following self-consciousness in its progression, through contradictions, into new articulations of social reason, it's great
It's really hard to summarise, probably the best basic overview I've seen is Pinkard's intro in his translation, but you just have to read it, it's a dialectical argument.

>> No.10846631
File: 1.15 MB, 2000x1200, hegel_by_mitchellnolte-d8l17eg-e1491455087946.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10846631

>>10845010
What isn't?
>Death, as we may call that unreality, is the most terrible thing, and to keep and hold fast what is dead demands the greatest force of all. Beauty, powerless and helpless, hates understanding, because the latter exacts from it what it cannot perform. But the life of mind is not one that shuns death, and keeps clear of destruction; it endures death and in death maintains its being. It only wins to its truth when it finds itself utterly torn asunder. It is this mighty power, not by being a positive which turns away from the negative, as when we say of anything it is nothing or it is false, and, being then done with it, pass off to something else: on the contrary, mind is this power only by looking the negative in the face, and dwelling with it. This dwelling beside it is the magic power that converts the negative into being. That power is just what we spoke of above as subject, which by giving determinateness a place in its substance, cancels abstract immediacy, i.e. immediacy which merely is, and, by so doing, becomes the true substance, becomes being or immediacy that does not have mediation outside it, but is this mediation itself.

>> No.10846638

>>10846631
>But the life of mind is not one that shuns death, and keeps clear of destruction; it endures death and in death maintains its being.
But the mind stops existing when you die. What does this sentence mean?

>> No.10846663

>>10846638
mind (geist) isn't just one individual mind, it's a greater whole, working itself out through individual minds like you and I. We are geist coming to know itself through itself. Even though each of us dies, our minds ends, but Mind doesn't, and ideas like Hegel's endure death a million times over. It still exists to Mind, even though his mind is long gone.

>> No.10846703

>>10846631
What a load of nonsense.

>> No.10846982

>>10846703
t. Bertrand Russel

>> No.10847139

>>10846982
seriously though, what profound insight do you think this really offers?

>> No.10847211

>>10846982
The only thing bertrand got right was keeping hegel as a footnote in his history of philosophy.

>> No.10847227

>>10847139
Is there anything on Earth you consider to be a profound insight?

>> No.10847246

>>10847227
Absolutely. The reason I love reading is because you encounter them very often in good books. I would like to know what you found to be insightful in that Hegel extract.

>> No.10848151

>>10841215
agrred. His "dialectic" is pathetic crap
/thread

>> No.10848224

>>10847246
You didn't answer my question. What do you consider a profound insight?

>> No.10848235

>>10843601
no response

>> No.10848248

>>10841201
>my consciousness has two parts, the changeable and the unchangeable, which are actually the same consciousness
>identify with the changeable
>never able to grasp the unchangeable
>look out into the world and view it as unchangeable
>view all of my abilities to work and thus change the world as gifts from the unchangeable, which thereby keeps its unchanging status
>in order to gain certainty of myself, I must prove my inessential nature as the changeable
>therefore offer myself up completely to the unchangeable, giving it thanks and credit for all that I do
>likewise the unchangeable reciprocates, and gives up itself by giving me abilities and by allowing me to work
>but this is not enough; I have in giving thanks retained my own existence, and thus consider myself essential
>therefore I bring in a priest to whom I give tithes and such, and this action proves my inessential nature
>but in so doing, I have negated myself, and found that the unchangeable has done the same, therefore I am the unchangeable
>the priest confirms this
>therefore I am certain of myself as the unchangeable, or all reality

Hegel's full of shit

>> No.10848367

tl;dr: Spirit (mind/thought/being) only exits through a process of "death" as negation. It is not merely a positing which negates something else to it as false, but rather is the power of negation which reveals the truth of falsehoods by penetrating mere appearances of knowledge. Spirit only exists in truly dealing with the negative and 'false', taking it seriously and engaging its own purported absoluteness by taking its own capacity to do and think to its limits. The negative (Nothing/death/falsehood) becomes Being (life/positive/truth) when Spirit (subject) runs content through itself and engages its self-movement (negativity) into concretized concepts. That last sentence is really impossible to explain if you have no idea wtf his 'method' is.

>> No.10849571

>>10848224
well no, that wasn't the wording of your question actually. Also I'm not going to share an insight here because all you'll say is "you think THAT's profound?!" and then you'll never explain what you find so impressive about the Hegel extract. Its a weird game you're trying to play.

>> No.10849581 [DELETED] 

>>10843820
Read them and find out. Or don't and waste that portion of your life (you'll never get it back).

t. @toldyaso

>> No.10849595

>>10843820
Read them and find out. Or don't, and save that portion of your life (you'll never get it back).

t. @toldyaso

>> No.10849611

>>10841201
Hegel intended the Phenomenology to be an introduction to his system--this is widely done. Most of the content in the Philosophy of Right and his Philosophy of History rely on ideas developed in the Phenomenology, like spirit, negativity, concept, content, etc. You can look up the definitions for those things, but it won't help you in actually understanding their weight in Hegel's system. The Phenomenology is very challenging, but after you read it the rest of Hegel will make a lot more sense.

>> No.10849613

>>10842309
The Introduction is like all hegel introductions. The rest is very easy to read if you like grand civilizational naratives.

>> No.10849635

>>10846631
i really liked that thanks

>> No.10849689

i read that the ideas of jacobi (which attacked hegel) stimulated hegel to write the phenomenology of the spirit. no one here speaks of jacobi. Maybe all of you are just alpha bots programmed to annoy me

>> No.10849792

>>10849635
why?