/lit/ - Literature

[Anonymous No.10680068]

>without god all things are permitted
How can atheists even respond?

[Anonymous No.10680101]

All actors/movers are equal, in principle.
Might is right/mob rule/democracy.
This is the truth with or without god. In fact, God makes it even truer: God is the ultimate might.

[Anonymous No.10680112]

>>10680068
>without god nothing is permitted
How do christians even respond?

[Anonymous No.10680119]

>>10680068

Nothing is true, everything is permitted. Technically this statement allows for God.

[Anonymous No.10680126]

>>10680068
People can still be coerced to to the "right thing" through a state that has a secular sovereign. People generally crave peace and stability. A powerful state can enforce that on a Godless society.

[Anonymous No.10680136]

>>10680126
You can't have a "right thing" without morality and you can't have morality without a deity

[Anonymous No.10680143]

>>10680112
That's pretty funny.

[Anonymous No.10680162]

>>10680068
They can't. They just say that UHHH ITS PRETTY STUPID THAT CHRISTIANS NEED TO BE REMINDED TO NOT MURDER LMAO XDD I WOULD NEVER DO THAT ... on an unrelated note abortion is totally acceptable :)

[Anonymous No.10680175]

>>10680068
hey, everything is permitted. that's pretty cool.

guess we can make our own values now :)

[Anonymous No.10680176]

>>10680136
You can have a dictator and a cultural tradition.

[Anonymous No.10680183]

>>10680136
I AM THE BEAST I WORSHIP

[Anonymous No.10680187]

>>10680175
>reddit

[Anonymous No.10680201]

>>10680068
we have rule of law, so no, not all things would be permitted.

[Anonymous No.10680208]

>>10680201
If you could get away with it, there's no reason to hold back though.

[Anonymous No.10680211]

>>10680136
>you can't have morality without a deity
With all respect that's fucking stupid, anon.

[Anonymous No.10680224]

>>10680068
What is society/law/culture/norms/etc?

[Anonymous No.10680225]

>>10680208
Sure there is, because people have ethics regardless of religion.

The majority of our laws stem from these ethics. I'd even wager that the majority of biblical law comes from people thinking about ethics.

[Anonymous No.10680253]

>>10680162
haha got em

[Anonymous No.10680265]

>>10680224
>What is society/law/culture/norms/etc?
shit that falls pretty quickly when theres no ultimate power figure (aka. God) to support all that stuff. and quickly i mean generations, like in 30 years, where a God enforced custom can supervive a whole millennia without too much changes.

[Anonymous No.10680270]

>>10680143
I was being serious

[Anonymous No.10680282]

>>10680265
That's strange, considering that generally the most atheist countries, china being one exception, are also the most stable countries with the highest living standards.

[Anonymous No.10680286]

>>10680201
Why are the things that are outlawed outlawed? Can you justify your prohibitions without morality, and if not, how can you derive an absolute morality that actually matters without God?

[Anonymous No.10680292]

>>10680282
Yeah bro I love having the state enforce an arbitrary morality over me using the threat of violence as an incentive to kowtow to their bullshit!

[Anonymous No.10680302]

>>10680225
But why should I follow these ethics

[Anonymous No.10680303]

>>10680282
post hoc ergo propter hoc

[Anonymous No.10680306]

>>10680286
>how can you derive an absolute morality that actually matters without God?

Whether or not an absolute morality exists is irrelevant. What matters are laws that make sense and induce peace and order. And we figure those laws out through logic and culture.

[Anonymous No.10680312]

>>10680282
>most atheist countries, china being one exception, are also the most stable countries
in a very very VERY narrow window frame. can you think historically, brainlet? all these super stable fedora cuck paradises are going to convert into a caliphate in the next 50 years.

[Anonymous No.10680314]

>>10680302
To sustain peace with your fellow man.

[Anonymous No.10680333]

>>10680292
I don't. But that's not what we're talking about.

>>10680312
>base your argument on what you believe will happen in the future
>call others a brainlet

[Anonymous No.10680339]

>>10680068

People do all sorts of horrible things in the name of religion, so believing in God doesn't seem to help much

[Anonymous No.10680348]

>>10680312
Sometimes I wonder if people know their beliefs are embarrasing, and they still stick with them, or if they only later realise just how embarrasing their beliefs were.

[Anonymous No.10680350]

>>10680314
Why should I care about that

[Anonymous No.10680351]

>>10680314
>>10680225
Then why do some people dodge taxes, rape and murder?

[Anonymous No.10680354]

>>10680136
But we had morality without a deity since God never existed and people were blissfully ignorant.

[Anonymous No.10680355]

>>10680350
Well, if you want to survive you better care about it, because if no one followed any rules we'd all kill each other.

[Anonymous No.10680362]

>>10680351
Because some people aren't ethical and their greed, lust etc overpowers them? It's obvious that the world is not perfect and there are going to be outliers.

[Anonymous No.10680383]

>>10680355
Have you seen online comments in regard to animal torture? We would revert to very cruel punishments for crimes not accepted by society. Without a God we would be incredibly cruel and moral at the same time, and drown the offenders in a bog, cut off their hands, peel their skin et cetera.

[Anonymous No.10680406]

>>10680383
im not following you, please elaborate

[Anonymous No.10680421]

>>10680143
He stole it from Zizek

[Anonymous No.10680426]

>>10680339
Believing in God isnt what does it, obedience

[Anonymous No.10680430]

>>10680355
Why should I care about that, god doesn't exist and I have no imperative to exist

[Anonymous No.10680439]

>>10680430
lol what the fuck do you want me to say to that? change your outlook.

[Anonymous No.10680450]

>>10680439
So you have no response?

[Anonymous No.10680452]

>>10680211
Without any form of metaphysics how can you have a morality that isn't just nominal?

[Anonymous No.10680463]

>>10680450
it was an idiotic question
>if god doesn't exist I have no imperative to exist so why should I care about other human beings?

[Anonymous No.10680472]

>>10680452
How can morality be nominal if it is effective

[Anonymous No.10680474]

>>10680463
Well can you tell me why? If you're just gonna keep saying reframing my argument you can just leave. Without a morality stemming from God there is quite literally nothing keeping me caring about people.

[Anonymous No.10680482]

>>10680068
"I don't permit it."
t. non-atheist

[Anonymous No.10680487]

>>10680068
A. That’s fine
B. Law stops people from murder fucking everyone

[Anonymous No.10680490]

>>10680487
>Law stops people from murder fucking everyone

*Sometimes, for now

[Anonymous No.10680494]

>Without mommy all things are permitted

[Anonymous No.10680495]

>>10680474
i already told you why bud.

>>10680225
>>10680355
>>10680314

[Anonymous No.10680496]

>>10680136
What is right is always determined subjectively in separate groups in society trough generally agreed upon principles, usually instilled trough normative upbringing and learned ideals. However, many different traditions of different peoples adopt the same core values, but portray and perform these values with different imagery and terms, yet their messages are still all the same. This reflect the general development of commonly agreed upon ethics, which is reflected in the general tendency in humans to seek peace and stability.

Therefore, whatever achieves peace between people is the objective moral truth.

[Anonymous No.10680505]

>>10680494

[Anonymous No.10680519]

>>10680495
You've told me why you think but you've not given me a reason to care in a godless world. There is no "greater good" if nihilism is the order of the day

[Anonymous No.10680523]

>>10680474

I suggest you really read some philosophy of religion if you want a comprehensive view on this topic instead of blindly defending what you've been brought up to believe.

[Anonymous No.10680530]

>>10680519
Why does there need to be a "greater good"? Human beings can still find meaning without it.

[Anonymous No.10680533]

>>10680282
But they were not only founded under religious principles but their current culture is a secularization of religious values. And it's still too soon to know for sure if they will be successful on the long run or not. Personally I don't think they will. Their morality doesn't stand on anything other than pragmatism, or more precisely their believe that they're pragmatic. What will happen when a crisis comes and liberal values don't look so pragmatic anymore?

[Anonymous No.10680538]

>>10680472
>Just do the right thing, anon.
How do I know it's the right thing?
>Lol, idk. Just do as I say.

[Anonymous No.10680546]

>>10680496
>is right is always determined subjectively in separate groups in society trough generally agreed upon principles
Culture is determined subjectively. Don't worry, there is still room for subjective thought in how society functions.

But the fundamental cornerstones of morality (i.e. it is bad to murder, to make war on others because of beliefs, etc.) these do not change, and are found present in religions all throughout the globe. It gives some evidence to the idea of objectivity in morality, and by extension, even the existence of a divine being who contemplates these sorts of things.

I think your post does show evidence of God, for how couldn't a divine authority that has shown his signs to his people also determine the appropriate morality for them to follow at all times?

We see this in the Abrahamic religions, especially. And to add to this, it is always the right thing to do to find these objective truths. And we have somehow found and maintained these truths through the test of time throughout the years. This is something to be greatly marveled at: for time and the progress of science, even today, should have eschewed the thought of God long ago.

Luckily there is an essence to God that can be felt. If you were left alone on a desert island your whole life, as Rousseau asserts in Emile, you would soon find the truth of your Creator. He is embedded in nature. You would do well to understand this principle, as it is very important.

[Anonymous No.10680547]

I've went through a bunch of phases concerning this, but I think I returned to an authentic sort of acceptance of it.

There's Zizek's cheeky attempt to subvert and turn it around using confession and how the big christian denominations handle Sinners, then there's strictly anti-religious views on morality and finally there's God as the big Other, which goes some way towards it, but in the End, it has to be true.

[Anonymous No.10680550]

>>10680362
What does it mean to be ethical? Is it that they haven't been indoctrinated into an ideology that promotes the morals of the state or is it a biological disability? Because the former sounds like believing in God(or a transcendental reason to be good to other people) and the latter doesn't account for free will.

[Anonymous No.10680552]

>>10680533
those religious values come from philosophers who thought about tenets that allow society to function, not god. Those sacred books were written by men, it's painfully obvious.

[Anonymous No.10680555]

>>10680523
But he's right. Because God is all that is Honorable, Pleasant, Virtuous, Righteous, Truthful, and Kind (those are Platonic virtues, mind you), then without a general prime director of his nature, he is more likely to do something less in the interests of his community.

[Anonymous No.10680564]

>>10680552
By men with God in mind. Religious ethics is the best we have whether God exists or not. Christianity is the only religion that has atheism within it, and can turn it into devotion.

[Anonymous No.10680577]

>>10680348
you cant question shit forever. theres this point you stop questioning your life and decisions, regardless how appropiate. so, yes, they know and stick with it, and then forget about it making it unconscious.

[Anonymous No.10680581]

>>10680550
>morals of the state or is it a biological disability
likely both. if you are raised in a bad way, that can lead to miscreancy. If you are born as a sociopath, that can also lead to miscreancy. or you could be stuck with both.

[Anonymous No.10680582]

>>10680496
>Teleports behind your concept of morality
>Deconstructs it as interpersonal power relations
>Psssh, nothin' personal, kid!

[Anonymous No.10680591]

>>10680564
The doubt is strong in this post. God certainly exists, how could we see evidence of him in other people if he did not!

[Anonymous No.10680608]

>>10680552
Not true, really, unless you consider religious thinkers philosophers, but while they are similar they are not the same. And in any case, those tenets were thought by philosophers who believed in metaphysics and in absolutes, so it's still the same thing.

[Anonymous No.10680616]

>>10680162
I'm an atheist and abortion is unacceptable unless the life of the mother is in danger
Checkmate, chrisfags

>>10680265
The Church is pretty powerful and influential. That's a material fact. Doesn't really prove that religious laws in themselves are better/truer than ones made by a state or culture.

>a God enforced custom
Oh, wait, so you mean God himself is actually intervening in the material world all the time to enforce religious customs?

>>10680068
It seems to me that there's a lot of irrelevant wanking going on itt, so let's bring this down to a more fundamental level. What does God have to do with things (not) being permitted, really?

[Anonymous No.10680617]

>>10680564
it's perfectly reasonable to assume that believers and non-believers can come to the same conclusion regarding murder. the guys who wrote the bible just happened to fall in the former camp, and western society today just happens to come from that tradition.

Doesn't mean that god came up with those ethics.

[Anonymous No.10680624]

>>10680555
>Because God is all
Stopped reading right there, pantheism makes more sense than giving God attributes.

[Anonymous No.10680627]

>>10680581
This reduces men to p-zombies who will react immorally purely on their genetics/upbringing rather than on their free will.

[Anonymous No.10680631]

>>10680546
>>10680546
>I think your post does show evidence of God, for how couldn't a divine authority that has shown his signs to his people also determine the appropriate morality for them to follow at all times?

God is more of a function in the mind of believers, rather than an authority figure that controls their behavior, because what is free will then? No, god is reflection of morality that is created by man and presented in a format that creates a relationship between the story, the receiver and the moral truth so that the individual simplifies the complexity of morality by using symbolism as a strategy to determine what is good or bad.

In a society where god has no function, morality is displayed in the exact same way. We embody our values in human symbols, just like god is represented in Jesus, morality in secular states is reflected in historical figures, texts, ideas that all inherently come from the expressions of human beings, just like god and the principles of their texts.

Of course, should God be understood as a physical truth before man, then all this is worth nothing.

[Anonymous No.10680633]

>>10680616
God has specifically given commands of what to do, and what not to do, confirming his existence through testimony.

Alternatively, you could look at it logically instead of empirically: through all of the various religions, certain tendencies arise from each of them for a certain sense of Good and what good constitutes.

[Anonymous No.10680639]

>>10680608
>unless you consider religious thinkers philosophers
I certainly do.
>while they are similar they are not the same
Yeah, one uses systematic logic, the other uses faith.

Although one can use logic, even if they have faith, which is why we have religious ethics. Especially for something as obvious as the consequences of murder.

[Anonymous No.10680644]

>>10680627
no such thing as free will. Look up causal determinism.

[Anonymous No.10680652]

>>10680644
>no such thing as free will

[Anonymous No.10680654]

>>10680652
i can tell you haven't thought about the topic enough.

[Anonymous No.10680659]

>>10680644
Now they're coming out of the woodwork

[Anonymous No.10680668]

>>10680624
I've debated this specific point before, and your objection makes little sense. If you admit he exists, then it's up to how literal you take Genesis. If you believe we were made in his image, then the characteristics follow.

>>10680631
God IS the divine morality we perceive on a day to day basis. If you believe God is exhorting you to do good and not to do evil, that is because God exists, and would never want you to do evil.

God is being understood as we speak. There are forces at work here beyond your control, for certain. Why do you think this board became so religious recently anyway?

I don't think an atheistic society functions the same as a society which believes in God. I can tell you that if you live in America you are lucky for this very reason: it seems Americans have an innate appreciation for God more than more European countries. If we were to take scientific progress whole-heartedly and everything that comes with it as an infallible proof of the non-existence of a divine order like it should be, we wouldn't believe in a God. No one would. But instead of this, we persist to believe. Why? Because he can be felt and seen. People who say there is no physical proof of God in this day and age are sorely mistaken. We are the proof, first of all, and it will continue in that way unless you decide not to believe.

Then you are a defender of God's morality without believing he exists. He is the one who developed Geometry for you to discover. Is it a wonder his ideal moral system most closely approximates to what you are comfortable with, or in some ways uncomfortable with, but brings a greater good in the future if followed? Clearly his ordinations are divine because they were woven into the fabric of existence when he created this universe, along with all the different laws particles follow as well.

[Anonymous No.10680670]

>>10680659

[Anonymous No.10680675]

That argument in itself admits that god doesn't exist, and is necessary only insofar as he provides groundwork for ethics. In a sense it's more nihilistic than any typical humanist standpoint.

[Anonymous No.10680689]

>>10680670
>You're a brainlet if you don't believe in causal determinism. Read the Wikipedia articles on Sam Harris and Daniel Dennett to enlighten yourself

[Anonymous No.10680703]

>>10680689
You're the brainlet for thinking that I don't believe in causal determinism. How embarrassing.

https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/determinism-causal/

[Anonymous No.10680713]

>>10680703
>I don't understand greentext

You're really just embarrassing yourself, kiddo

[Anonymous No.10680726]

>>10680713
>t. causally determined newfag
>needs to learn how greentext works

[Anonymous No.10680731]

>>10680703
>>10680703
If causal determinism is true, then what do you define as morality? Morality must then boil down to what is "most useful" for the individual or what is generally agreed upon by the tribe. People just do things. There's no conscious imperative to behave in a certain way since determinism implies I am COMPELLED to follow newtonian physics or darwinism.

[Anonymous No.10680739]

>>10680731
Hot stoves determine the fate of humanity.

[Anonymous No.10680740]

No, all it takes is a system of metaphysics, which doesn't need to contain a God. The ancients already figured this out.

[Anonymous No.10680752]

>>10680731
we have been causally determined to come up with a system of ethics to sustain our species due to other causally determined factors such as murder, war, or even the very fact that we even evolved into human beings.

And yes, you should be compelled by darwin.

[Anonymous No.10680764]

>>10680740
But wouldn't an atheist think that believing in metaphysics is as deluded as believing in God?

[Anonymous No.10680776]

>>10680764
no not at all, go read up on metaphysics

[Anonymous No.10680783]

>>10680752
I think it's time we start redirecting people to /sci/ everyone.

>>>/sci/

[Anonymous No.10680785]

>>10680764
>who is Schopenhauer

[Anonymous No.10680803]

>>10680752
>we have been causally determined
>to "come up" with a system of ethics
We have been causally determined to "create" systems of morality? Doesn't this statement strike you as paradoxical?

[Anonymous No.10680809]

>>10680785
Yeah, but that was before Heidegger BTFO metaphysics. To believe in metaphysics after that does seem at least as deluded as believing in God.

[Anonymous No.10680824]

>>10680803
no it doesn't, "coming up with" is simply a way to describe the illusion of free will. Ethical systems are in fact dictated by the events that lead up to them.

[Anonymous No.10680839]

>>10680633
>God has specifically given commands of what to do, and what not to do, confirming his existence through testimony.
Where? In Torah? In Bible? In Qur'an?
If in Bible, which one? Different denominations have different versions of the word of God.
You're acting like Christianity is a simple, ingenious solution to all of our existential, ethical etc problems, while its material origin and, consequently, complexity and messiness are blatantly apparent. Christianity had two massive schisms, one of which led to long and terrible wars. How am I supposed to accept this religion, how am I supposed to differentiate lies from truth in this mess where everyone is calling each other heretics if they disagree, where even the foundational text, the very word of God, varies from place to place?

>through all of the various religions, certain tendencies arise from each of them for a certain sense of Good and what good constitutes.
Incas deformed their children's heads and sent them to die in mountains. Aztecs ritually cut hearts out of their enemies' chests. Muslims today bomb and massacre innocents. All this was and is done in the name of religion, it was all called "good".

In all the things I described in this post I only see human superstition and power games in here, rather than anything consistently good or something that suggests something consistent, beyond the chaotic material world.

[Anonymous No.10681127]

>>10680839
>Muslims today bomb and massacre innocents
Stopped reading there bud.

You need to stop doing this. You and I both know Muslims are not de facto radicals. Just because religious people will kill others does not mean that religion has not prevented that much more people from doing the same. In other words, just consider the psychological effects of a belief in an objective morality. Defined that way, it is a net good for society. This is how God is, in my opinion, the moral developments he oversees are good for humanity even just in contemplation.

[Anonymous No.10681238]

>>10681127
I wrote my post in good faith, hoping that someone could finally provide a real answer. I've been reading Parra today a lot and I'm honestly desperate for some sort of truth and order in this world.
And now you give me this post, made up of bullshit, holes and dishonesty (probably not even intentional). It made me feel sad and slightly angry. I guess I deserve that for expecting anything from 4chan.

[Anonymous No.10681422]

>>10681238
why are you even giving that opinion any weight lol

[Anonymous No.10681426]

>>10681127

>Just because religious people will kill others does not mean that religion has not prevented that much more people from doing the same.

Can you provide recorded examples for this claim?

[Anonymous No.10681442]

>>10681422
>>10681238
You plens, this is the same argument many philosophers make when discussing the nature of God. That the sociological benefits from an objective morality are divine.

It goes like this: although some have killed because of religion, there are many more that would have if they hadn't been religious. You seem to undervalue the type of effect believing in God can have on people's lives. It can make them give money to the poor. It can make them absolve others of horrible crimes for general goodwill, it can bring people closer together, it can produce love, it can produce hope. Everything. As a social function, God lubricates the masses, without God, nothing flows. Everything is stagnant. Including wealth.

[Anonymous No.10681463]

>>10681442
>there are many more that would have if they hadn't been religious.
How are you supposed to prove that?You just dont know.

[Anonymous No.10681483]

>>10681442
>looks at all the wars caused by religion
ok
>there are many more that would have if they hadn't been religious
purely assumptive
>many philosophers
which?
>You seem to undervalue the type of effect believing in God can have on people's lives
it certainly had a major effect when people were goat herders. We are living in a society where religion isn't necessary, from an ethical point of view, because we have law.

[Anonymous No.10681494]

>>10681483
Rousseau, Machiavelli, Hobbes, Campanello's City of the Sun.

Any political philosopher worth a damn, really, understood the value of cultivating belief in God.

[Anonymous No.10681513]

>>10681494
>>10681494

>same argument
no doubt they mention god, but im pretty sure their reasoning isn't
>Just because religious people will kill others does not mean that religion has not prevented that much more people from doing the same.

It seems like youre just making a vague appeal to authority simply because they mention god in their writings.

[Anonymous No.10681733]

>>10680162
>abortion is murder

[Anonymous No.10682534]

>>10680668
Good post Anon, gave me goosebumps

[Anonymous No.10682541]

>>10681513
Yes they did. Otherwise they wouldn't have devoted entire chapters to the sociological/psychological benefits of believing in God.

Imagine what being a small-brained atheist can do for you, you won't think about any religion critically.

[Anonymous No.10683176]

>>10680068
But....almost all things are permitted? I see few things that aren’t morality wise. Given the right conditions anyone could do anything, within physical limits. So my response is, even if god exists then limits aren’t being set that should be and I see that as no deity I wish to subscribe to.

[Anonymous No.10683327]

>>10680225
> people should just be nice because they should be
> if there were no authorities (police, prison, and similar), i'm sure people would just act nice out of the kindness of their hearts
By Allah, you atheists are thick sometimes.

[Anonymous No.10684174]

>>10681442
>this is supposed to prove Christianity
Jesus fuck
Just stop. I shouldn't have asked a single question. I guess I'll have to get into theology if I want pro-God arguments that don't reduce my IQ when I read them.

[Anonymous No.10684347]

>>10680187
>nietszczhce is reddit

[Anonymous No.10684349]

>>10680068
"Except for these things which are illegal and frowned upon."

[Anonymous No.10685251]

>>10680112
>not everything = nothing

[Anonymous No.10685308]

>>10680430
then kys lmao>>10680439

[Anonymous No.10685418]

>>10684349
mfw society is god

[Anonymous No.10685432]

>>10685251
Nice reading comprehension

[Anonymous No.10685538]

>>10680068
>m-muh evolutional morality