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/lit/ - Literature

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10607077 No.10607077 [Reply] [Original]

ITT: Share your most contrarian literary opinions

>> No.10607086

Dune is a sack of shit and Herbert is a worse writer than GRRM.
Same thing goes for everything Stephen King

Also Camus >>>> Sartre

>> No.10607104

Stephen King is underrated, especially by the literary intelligentsia. King bows to popular demand, but could easily out write many of our celebrated luminaries if he gave a shit.

Hemingway was a selfish, drunk and belligerent asshat whose approach is ultimately formulaic and overrated. His whole thing about the 'tip of the iceberg' and the unseen being hinted at but not directly addressed is an excuse employed by a man whose public image of the wise, world weary uber-mensch scholar would shatter if he attempted to describe the submerged parts of the metaphorical iceberg. Cause he'd fuck it up.

he good, tho. just not THAT good.

>> No.10607115

>>10607086

i agree with all of this, honestly.

>> No.10607132

Sartre and Popper are both perfectly good philosophers who /lit/ only hates because /lit/ is /pol/ now.

Umberto Eco is a fun writer.

People attracted to philosophy based on its connections to politics are vapid manchildren. People attracted to philosophy based on its connections to the esoteric and occult are on their way to borrowing the strength of eagles if they haven't already.

>> No.10607136

>>10607086
>Dune is a sack of shit and Herbert is a worse writer than GRRM
Hear hear

>> No.10607151

i think everyone whos into literature, deep down, believe themselves superior to normal, less-read people.

>> No.10607176

>>10607151

Many people, when they think they enjoy X, in fact only enjoy being the sort of person who enjoys X.

Search your feelings. You *know* it to be true.

>> No.10607188

>>10607086
Herbert may not be the best prose stylist but in terms of character and theme he's fucking lightyears ahead of GRRM, and the only thing that kept him from finishing his work was the fact he died.

>> No.10607189

hemingway is boring

faulkner wrote like he had some mental disorder

>> No.10607195

>>10607189
>faulkner wrote like he had some mental disorder

But sir, he was merely pretending.

>> No.10607196

Reading is boring.

>> No.10607197

19th century philosophy > ancient greeks

>> No.10607200

>>10607077

I hate the French post-modernists but I have only read Adorno and Horkheimer... And they aren't even French.

>> No.10607205

>>10607196
Well damn, what you doing here bud?

>> No.10607206

>>10607197
PreSocratics > whatever passes for philosophy since the 18th century.

>> No.10607215

>>10607104

I think King has a pretty accurate view of himself as a writer - more accurate than most artists, for sure.

Remember in Misery, where Sheldon has that moment of pride - even when he's writing schlock, he knows he has a talent for hooking the reader and making them want to turn the page, want to find out what's going to happen.
That's King's great strength. His great weakness is his thin and meretricious world-view. He's like junk food - superficially appealing, but after a while you realize you aren't getting substantial nourishment.

I agree re. Hemingway. I think his main problem is he obtrudes his own personality into his works and it's deeply unpleasant and limiting.

>> No.10607223

>>10607189
>faulkner wrote like he had some mental disorder
It's called retardation, and he wrote that way on purpose because he was writing from the point of view of a retarded man.

>> No.10607224

>>10607077
T.S.Eliot is hugely overrated.
Yes, a lot of people whose opinions I respect, think very highly of him.
I don't care.

>> No.10607228

>>10607086
I have yet to meet anyone who genuinely liked Sarte. His name is more a vague sign for continental philosophy.

>> No.10607235

>>10607188
Not that guy and only read the first book, but most of the characters were flat as cardboard, especially Paul. You’re right about themes though.

>> No.10607246

If you can't write a good short story you have no business trying to write novels.

>> No.10607260

>>10607246
I don't think this is contrarian.

>> No.10607264

>>10607104
>Stephen King is underrated, especially by the literary intelligentsia. King bows to popular demand, but could easily out write many of our celebrated luminaries if he gave a shit.

I agree Stephen King could write very well if he gave a shit, but he doesn't and that's also part of being a writer. I can't say someone is any better or worse than what they show themselves to be.

>> No.10607270

>>10607188
>muh muad'dib

Lel no

>> No.10607272

>>10607264
What makes you guys think he could be better if he wanted? I don't see it.

>> No.10607273

There is more wisdom in Proverbs and Pslams than every contemporary philosophy book put together.

>> No.10607276

>>10607273

Psalms is mostly just people asking God to smite their enemies though. There are literally like four good prayers there.

>> No.10607282

>>10607224
You can read the first part of The Wasteland then not bother with the rest. Hollow Men is good though.

And Ezra Pound's name is a mating call for the worst of pseuds.

>> No.10607288

>>10607077

As a story, The Lord Of The Rings is overrated. Whilst many individual scenes are excellent, the larger plot arcs are not. Nor is the prose particularly good.
(Having said that, the world-building is magnificent, and that is why it is still a great and important achievement.)

>> No.10607290
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10607290

100 years of solitude sucks ass

>> No.10607293

Borges has some cool ideas but overall he's pretty frigid and soft. Premier NEET products.

>> No.10607294

>>10607290
This isn't contrarian. Not in my household anyway.

>> No.10607308

>Book of the New Sun is severely overrated by fanboys. It's better than most fantasy but I'd tell someone to skip it if they dont dig the style.
>Scott Bakker was good but went full pseud, now he's trash and shits out scrambled drafts
>Scott Lynch...lol. First book was good though.
>Joe Abercrombie is actual shit

>> No.10607317

All books are bad. There are no books worth reading. Its a huge waste of time.

>> No.10607331

>>10607317
This is a God-tier opinion.

>> No.10607337

I like reading books.

>> No.10607351

>>10607077
Tolkien is legitimately enjoyable to read.

>> No.10607352 [DELETED] 

10607228
His short story "The Wall" is actually really good. It's based on Kant's murderer-at-the-door scenario and is quite well-written imho. It was also adapted into a fantastic Albanian/German short film in 2009. You can find both online rather easily.

>> No.10607353

>>10607228
His short story "The Wall" is actually really good. It's based on Kant's murderer-at-the-door scenario and is quite well-written imho. It was also adapted into a fantastic Albanian/German short film in 2009. You can find both online rather easily

>> No.10607358
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10607358

>>10607132
seperating the esoteric from the politeia is a recent liberal invention anon

>> No.10607363

>>10607308
The Joe Abercrombie thing is a contrarian opinion? Really? Those First Law books are so fucking bad and just a sad angry man's shouting about how the world is as fucked and angry as he his,

>> No.10607369

>>10607358

Not at all. Evola specifically and repeatedly says that he's indifferent to politics because spiritual qualities are more important and primary. Evola is certainly not liberal.

>> No.10607386

>>10607363
Glad someone agrees.

>> No.10607414

>>10607369
By that I meant the 16th century, as the image suggests. Also, while I haven't read Evola, I can't possibly imagine anyone that hellbent on changing the social fabric being indifferent to politics. Maybe his definition of politics is sick and twisted, just like my definition of a liberal.

>> No.10607442

>>10607353
The name of the film is actually "Muri" in case anyone actually cares

i know nobody does

>> No.10607474

People who say "reading is a passive activity" don't know how to read.

>> No.10607673

>>10607205
I actuslly read an average of 50k words per day because everything else is boring too.

>> No.10607682

>>10607077
Melville is better than Joyce, Tolstoy, Dostoevsky, and any other novelist you may put him up against.

Victor Hugo is underrated here

>> No.10607691

>>10607276
Le wisdoom

>> No.10607695

>>10607337
Me neither

>> No.10607736

>>10607474
I've never heard anyone say that.

>> No.10607753

>>10607736
congratulations, everybody you know knows how to read.

>> No.10607760

>>10607753
Seriously though, who said so?

>> No.10607781

>>10607077
Telemachus was a faggot, and Antinous should have skewered him in front of that roastie, Penelope.

>> No.10607782

Literature is an inferior art. However, the most well explored one.

>> No.10607788

>>10607077
I didn't care for Infinite Jest

>> No.10607790

>>10607760
illiterates

>> No.10607791

>>10607474
Googled what you said and found some odd linkedin by some Pajeet speed-reading coach...

>> No.10607794

Moral philosophy is a cancer.

>> No.10607796

>>10607782
inferior to what?
also, why?

>> No.10607801
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10607801

>>10607782
Genuine pleb opinion
Literature has the most depth of any medium, and overall is only matched by music for entirely opposite reasons.

>> No.10607862

More like Heifagger,

>> No.10607904

>>10607282
>"EZZZZZRRRaaaaaaAAAA PoUUUUND!!!" she screeched furiously from atop the roof. It was the first mating call of pseud-mating season. Her vagina was red and inflamed like a festering wound, and the smell alone would have sufficed to draw potential mates to the vicinity. By and by the males began to arrive, with Spengler tucked under arm, entranced by her screeching, intoxicated by her foul odor. They gathered round her in a circle and hypnotically chanted the Cantos while performing an elaborate ritual dance, their medium size cocks flopping around like pendulums to the rythm. "EZZZZZzzzzzzzzRAAAAAAaaaaAaa POoooUUUUUuuuUund". This time she belowed in a gruff voice, obviously aroused by the mating displays of the males. Who would she choose as her partner this mating season? Only the pseudiest of the pseuds would stand a chance to reproduce with such a magnificent specimen.

>> No.10607930

>>10607796
It's an art which is based and solidified by words. Sterile symbols man chose as a crutch for the unsatisfatory accomplishment of his desire to understand and deal with reality. Artificial objects that must receive meaning by the common sense before they can even give meaning to things.
Film, for example, would be superior, because it doesn't depend on these artificial structures to speak with the Unconscious. It goes through the most primitive paths to the depths of the human mind. The ones that were there before we didn't even need to catalog the whole universe. Yes, I'm talking about vision and sound.

>> No.10607940

reading is for fags

>> No.10607949

>>10607077
Philosophy is 1/4 knowledge and 3/4 character, and you can sum up the flaws of most philosophers' works by looking at the flaws of their characters. As a rule of thumb, philosophers who write dry, drawn out essays to communicate their ideas will think in dry, drawn out ways too.

>> No.10607983

>>10607086
>Camus >>>> Sartre

I think everybody who isn't a pseud knows this, but it just isn't particularly fashionable to say.

>> No.10607986

>>10607176
This is absolute fact. I've even observed in myself that I love the idea of having profound 'sincere' encounters with art. I've read parts of novels where I teared up because I felt that I wanted to have the memory of myself tearing up at a certain part of the book. As I was having this 'sincere' emotional experience of crying I was imagining in mind how I might describe this experience and talk about how overwhelmed I was by the book, even as I was supposedly being overwhelmed. Ego is a funny thing.

>> No.10608009

Censorship is good for art.

>> No.10608233

>>10607273
Awful opinion. The Bible as a whole is no where near as 'wise' as everyone says it is, especially the Old Testament. Paul's writings are also really overrated imo, all his letters make him sound like a genuinely really unhinged kind of guy.

>> No.10608267

>>10607736
>>10607791
I've heard people say that when they try to argue the virtues of videogames as an artistic medium.

>"In games you actively participate in the experience instead of absorbing passively like a book or movie."

I got nothing against videogames, but thats a common argument in those circles and it makes me cringe.

>> No.10608271

jordan peterson is a pretty cool dude

>> No.10608299

>>10607104
I actually agree with all of this. I'm not going to go so far as to say Hemingway isn't a good writer, but his prose is painfully average. It's probably partly due to me having more of a taste for the more flowery prose writers though.
Also agree with regards to King. Some of his lesser known short stories are actually really good. I remember this one where a boy meets the devil while he's out fishing and the quality was much higher than in his normal popular novels. I can't begrudge him for focusing on the popular stuff though. He's a great storyteller and at least he gets people reading.

>> No.10608318

>>10607151
I don't think this is a bad thing. If the reader believes they're improving as a person that's a good thing.
The thing that pisses me off a lot more is the smarmy attitude that all people are all equal no matter how they conduct their lives

>> No.10608331

>>10607246
Cormac McCarthy's short stories I found from when he was much younger were not particularly interesting to me, but he really shines when he takes up more space.

>> No.10608386

Stoner kind of sucked

>> No.10608433

>>10607077

No relevant thought was ever expressed in French. With the exception of Proust, Frenchmen have second rate literature, philosophy and art in general. Everything they do is topped or has been topped by Italy, Germany and England.

>> No.10608457

>>10607986

Autism is a funny thing.

>> No.10608462

>>10607077
Philosophy is bullshit ego wanking and is a complete and utter waste of time, effort and resources.

>> No.10608469

>>10607273
This is complete bullshit that only a fundie faggot would believe.

>> No.10608473

>>10607317
You're probably right.

>> No.10608478

>>10608009
Wrong

>> No.10608488

The Little Prince is a bad book mostly filled with contrived life advice. A large majority of the book's preaching falls flat after a couple of seconds spend actually thinking about it. The bit about the drunk guy was funny though.

>> No.10608495

>>10608433
it's not the French language, it's just the French; cf. Beckett.

>> No.10608530

>>10608457
I bet you're no better. I bet you're the type of guy that's know as the 'culture vulture' in your family, and whenever you're visiting a city with them or your friends you always rush to the local art gallery (because thats what everyone expects you to do) and say that every obscure painting is "interesting" in an ominous and faux-intellectual way to trick everyone into thinking you're having a real "experience" with the artworks. But you deep down feel both pleased by this identity of the cultured man you've cultivated and also a slight disappointment that art isn't as powerful as you always envision it as one day being for you, so you reason to yourself that if everyone around you says you're a man of cultural curiosity then you must be doing something right even though it becomes clearer everyday that you treat it (literature, art, music) like any other shallow hobby, and you spend more time thinking about how pleased you are to attach yourself and identity to these great works than the actual content of the works themselves (you have a handful of semi-deep points and summaries you can make of these works just in case anyone asks you about them) and you feel a slight twinge of anxious dread whenever someone else expresses a love of those same things in the fear that they might have had an authentic love of these works that is for some reason inaccessible to you, so you secretly gatekeep in your mind and find a reason to shrug their interest off as pedestrian or undeveloped so you can continue the charade.

Yes I am projecting, please take the world of culture away from me.

>> No.10608593
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10608593

>>10607940
This

>> No.10608610

>>10608478
REDACTED

>> No.10608709

>>10608462
nice philosophical claim, wanker

>> No.10608747

>>10608709
>t. butthurt philosophy major

>> No.10608902

>>10608009
elaborate?

In Aeropagitica, Milton says that no art should be censored...Except Catholic Art! because it will corrupt the minds of those who read it. Everybody has a line they don't want art to cross for one reason or another. If you don't mind my asking, What's yours?

>> No.10608911

>>10608433
French mathematicians are superior to English

>> No.10608924

Milton was not a terribly good poet.

>> No.10608926

>>10608924
True. As someone-or-other famously said, he was a great poet, but not a very good one.

>> No.10608938

Dostoevsky shouldn't be held up as the example of Russian literature.

>> No.10608942

>>10608924
Are you the same guy that posts anti-Milton stuff in every opinion thread? What’s wrong with his work?

>> No.10608947

>>10608938
The Russians themselves would probably say Pushkin, but you have to be able to speak Russian to appreciate Pushkin, and ain't nobody got time for that.

>> No.10608949

>>10607290
All of Marquez sucks ass, man.

>> No.10608952

>>10608902
Censorship leads to creativity, hidden meanings, depth, subtlety. There are surface layers and esoteric layers to works of art made in times of obstruction.

In an anything goes era art quickly grows unsubtle, vulgar and turns into a provocation arms race that leaves everyone numb or becomes formless to the degree of meaninglessness (a lot of modern art).

Compare Renaissance art to some exposition of blood dripping cunt close-ups in Brooklyn or something.

>> No.10608954

>>10608938
this is true because his writing is so different from the typically russian literature, but he is nevertheless extremely good

>> No.10608956

90%+ of the time you can and should judge a book by its cover

>> No.10608968

>>10608952
This argument is often made with regard to Hollywood and the creative ways they found to express eroticism under the Hays Code.

>> No.10609228

Dream of A Ridiculous man is Dostoevsky's best short story.

>> No.10609303

Reading is boring

>> No.10609307
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10609307

>>10608009
REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

>> No.10609320
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10609320

>>10607196
Oh shit

>> No.10609340
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10609340

>>10607904
congratulations, I'm actually disgusted.

>> No.10609368

English literature is hugely overrated.
Tolstoy > Dostoevsky
Italian lit is underrated
Gogol was miles ahead of everyone in terms of pure talent

>> No.10609380

most great works aren't great. they're whatever the presiding university faculty circlejerked to, or they're just whatever survived from previous centuries. most people, myself included, these days savagely review new literary works but wouldn't be able to tell them apart from classics, or vice versa, if their style, setting, and references were altered.

>> No.10609381

>>10609340
you're welcome :^)

>> No.10609464

>>10607781
Never attempt this again.

>> No.10609484

>>10607223
>he was writing from the point of view of a retarded man
so, he was writing from the point of view of Faulkner?

>> No.10609498

>>10607930
Visuals aren't really that big of a deal, they help plebs like you to be synchronized with their thoughtlords' desires though so that's great.
We always need people at the bottom of the pyramid.

>> No.10609528
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10609528

>>10608949
Not true, virgin. Have you read Love in the Time of Cholera?

>> No.10609537

Every work in the canon deserves its place there. The people who run contrary to this (aside from small differences of taste) don't know how to read literature.
The most important contemporary authors are women and poc.
Poetry works in translation.
You really can't have any substantial understanding of philosophy without going to school for it.
China as a literary/philosophical/cultural institution is leagues better than ancient Greece.

>> No.10609713

>>10609498
I'm interested in changing my point of view. If you could hand me some arguments, it would be nice.

>> No.10609784

>>10607442
I do man

>> No.10609793

Philosophical conclusions are lenses through which we chose how to see the world. None of then are right or wrong. Logic always find its dead end in ideology. Therefore, in faith.

>> No.10609794

>>10608530
Jesus

>> No.10609801

>>10609793
>choose
>them
>finds

English is my third language and I'm writing on my phone. Sorry lads

>> No.10609818

>>10608530

I enjoy art alone; I don't talk about it my family or friends. If the art doesn't move me, it just doesn't. You need to sort some things out, if you have such an outburst from someone making fun of you being such an autist that you need to force false emotions.

>> No.10609841

>>10607104
>Stephen King is underrated, especially by the literary intelligentsia. King bows to popular demand, but could easily out write many of our celebrated luminaries if he gave a shit.

writing and giving a shit are mutually exclusive

>> No.10609848

>>10608530
but anon, literature, arts, and music ARE all hobbies. what's wrong with that? it does not mean they are a waste of time. i love non-fiction and only read it if it translates to a bigger paycheck for me and that's ok. everything else is just leisure.

>> No.10609854

>>10608530
I bet a well written book with this faggotry of yours as its main subject would move you, buddy. Write a diary.

>> No.10609872

>>10609848
>literature, arts, and music ARE all hobbies
Thats whats disappointing. They come so close to being some kind of salvation and then must always inevitably fall flat.
>>10609818
I don't really even have any friends these days, I just can't help the self-consciousness that comes with even the most personal appreciation of art. Its slowly becoming impossible to commit to any use of my time, art or not, without that kind of fretting about what constitutes a good use of time. Art used to matter more to me but now I have this panic that I'm wasting time, thats why I always return to the shallow third-person perspective.

>> No.10609882

>>10609854
>this faggotry of yours
Maybe I'm delusional but I believe to some extent that my mindset is the endgame for most people with artistic interests. The sneaking feeling that art is ultimately a waste of time leads to the silly, shallow self-consciousness I've described.

>> No.10609889
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10609889

>>10607077
If you're a theist and it influences your writing or philosophy in any way it's automatically shit tier. Yes, I'm serious.

>> No.10609921

>>10609889
That's funny since authors with theistic influence tend to be the best ones.

Faithless heathens cant into transcendant works. They can only circle around the innumerable follies of man.

>> No.10609928

>>10609921
Name these great "Christian" writers please. Most of the great were actually not Christian at all.

>> No.10609930

>>10609882
You are delusional, don't worry. Also a massive faggot, but you can change.

>> No.10609937

>>10609928
I said theistic influence wiseguy, that does not mean Christian.

>> No.10609940

>>10609930
>I'm 19 and really like Dosto so please stop being jaded about my new hobby, you'll ruin my fun.
Sure

>> No.10609950

>>10609937
Oh so you mean the huge wealth of theistic but non-Christian writers in the Western Canon? Lol

>> No.10609962

90% of Dostoevsky's characters are 2-dimensional caricatures. Dude wrote like he was severely autistic.

>> No.10609965

>>10609950
Is there a problem? A great many were influenced by Christianity (and other religions) and in general had the concept of a higher power or engaged with it. This is Day 1 shit

>> No.10609983

I wasn't trying to be rude, anon, seriously. Also art is not a hobby for me.

>> No.10609996

>>10609962
Kys bruh

>> No.10610004

>>10609965
>(and other religions)
Like what? Islam?
>influenced by Christianity
Doesn't mean they were theists. Every post-Roman European was technically influenced, doesn't make them theists.
>had the concept of a higher power
This is not theism.

Stop trying to pretend great art belongs to religion, it really doesn't.

>> No.10610015

>>10610004
>Stop trying to pretend great art belongs to religion, it really doesn't.

If only I actually said that, better luck next time dude.

>> No.10610024

>>10610015
>That's funny since authors with theistic influence tend to be the best ones.
>Faithless heathens cant into transcendant works
I know reading isn't an interest of yours, but at least try to read your own posts.

>> No.10610030

>>10607086
Camus can do but Sartre is smarter

>> No.10610038

>>10610024
And in what universe does "theistic influence" translate into devout Christian like you're trying to impress?

>> No.10610076

>>10610038
Firstly, theism in the context of European literature means Christianity, so drop the term 'theism' because you really mean Christian. Secondly, 'influence' applies to every European person (whether they were devout or rebelling against the faith) virtually since the Fall of Rome, so that isn't your real criteria. Therefore, what you obviously really mean is devout Christian writers because otherwise your terms make no sense, kid.

I'm not >>10609889 btw

>> No.10610118

>>10610076
Dont care who you are, and my initial comment was not aimed toward any particular continent or time period, so singling out Europe is kinda useless.

>> No.10610132

>>10607215
Is it Hemingway that obtrudes his personality into his work, or is it his place in our culture that does that though? People tend to dumb Hemingway down these days, seeing him through the narrow scope of the hyper-masculine portrayal that he's had for so long. Yes, he did participate in that masculine mythos during his lifetime, especially after age 40, but I find a lot more in his work than that, especially his earlier works like The Sun Also Rises and the stories of In Our Time. The characters in those stories in particular are very vulnerable, emotional characters and I don't think it's an accident. Jake Barnes crying when considering his war wound, his loss in the fight against Kohn, his relationship with Lady Brett where he doesn't actually exert much influence over her but still doggedly pursues her all don't fit inside that neat box.
I know some will say "but what about all of those stories about Paris, he curated that persona his whole life, not just later." Most of those stories come from A Movable Fest or later interviews about his work.
I say all of this, but I do agree with this criticism regarding his famous works post 1930. Making that distinction of famous works is the key factor here, his posthumously published works written during that time (The Garden of Eden and Islands in the Stream) show a different, more self-aware and less macho take on himself and his subject matter than For Whom the Bell Tolls or The Old Man and the Sea.

>> No.10610140

>>10610118
Yeah whatever just fuck off, you’re not worth speaking to any longer.

>> No.10610144

>>10610118
>so singling out Europe is kinda useless.
Much like your opinion.

>> No.10610146

If it's purposefully made hard to understand it's pretentious garbage and no one should read it. I don't read books so I don't have any examples but with film. Tarkovsky uses long takes which is hard for the average person to stand but it has meaning where Avant Garde filmmakers do stupid shit that no one can understand with no meaning to seem smart.

>> No.10610151

>>10607086
Literally nobody will defend Sartre. He has the juvenile musings of an existentialist with none of the charm (like Camus) or philosophical beef (like Kierkegaard or Heidegger) to back it up

>> No.10610150

>>10610140
Dude your actually really mistaken about Christianity being the only theistic religiom in Europe.

>> No.10610155

>>10610140
>>10610144
>muh Europe is the only continent to write literature
>muh monotheism is the only type of theism

More hot takes from /lit/ , cant get enough

>> No.10610156

>>10610150
>>10610151
Somethin funky on the post times

>> No.10610168

This board hasn't a clue about anything it talks about.
>>10607273
I'm the only actually religious person here and even I disagree with that.

>> No.10610172

>>10607930
>unconscious
Fuck off.
>>10609498
Fuck off Platonist

>> No.10610184

>>10609921
>transcendental
Fuck off, Platonist.

>> No.10610193

>>10610184
Eat shit, whatever you call yourself.

>> No.10610196

>>10610151
Camus is shite. Merleau-Ponty is better. Too bad this board can only circlejerk a handful of philosophers and probably thinks fucking Merleau-Ponty is obscure.

>> No.10610212

>>10610155
>B-but what about Rumi, guys!
Fuck off

>> No.10610223

>>10610196
I don't disagree but you're a retard if you don't think that Camus had style and that led to him being looked at favorably by most people

>> No.10610232

>>10607246
There are very few exceptions to this rule.
>>10607682
Agreed on both counts.
>>10607782
>>10607930
>>10609303
When will we cleanse the site of /tv/ and /v/?
>>10607904
Meh post.
>>10609368
Any recommendations of non-obvious Italians?
>>10609537
Nice bait.
>>10608530
I-I'm sorry anon. I hope you feel better.
>>10609854
Unironically think this has potential because I know while he isn't as universal as he suggests, there is definitely a stronger image obsessed pseud culture now because of the internet.

>> No.10610240

>>10610223
He had no style, no grace. He appeals to pseuds like you. Even Sartre is a fucking joke, my program teaches Beauvoir over that pedophile. There is literally nothing redemptive about those two cunts.

>> No.10610262

>>10610240
Ah okay so you're autistic and don't understand what I'm saying cool.

>> No.10610273

>>10610262
>he le looks cool xdDDDD
Don't care what teenage girls think.

>> No.10610281

>>10610273
Kinda yeah. His sunglasses would have given us a reason to take a second look at the works in a kinda abstract sorta way

>> No.10610284

>>10610273
Well awesome, thanks for the input, I really hope that you continue to brighten up 4chan.org/lit/ with your insightful posts and willingness to argue in good faith.

>> No.10610295

>>10610284
>muh good faith
nah fuck off ya cunt

>> No.10610305

>>10610232
>Any recommendations of non-obvious Italians?
Malaparte, Ungaretti, Montale, Manganelli, Gadda.
Classics like Orlando Furioso, Gerusalemme liberata or Petrarch's Canzoniere are also basically unread by non Italians for some obscure reason.

>> No.10610313

>>10610295
I’ve tried being nice but how about you just f*ck off from now on, yeah? Cool

>> No.10610334

>>10610240
>he appeals to pseuds like you
That's what he was saying, that Camus had something that appealed to large numbers of people.

>> No.10610336

>>10610295
>muh hurtful words
Twat

>> No.10610345

>>10608530
Someone needs to read Good Old Neon ASAP

>> No.10610347

The age of literature and writing and the alphabet are almost over now and we are literally going backwards in time to a homeric neo-mythic tribalized shamanic state

>> No.10610378

The idea of ‘culture’ being something you can identify with is false. You are forced into a particular culture and “cultural appreciation” is just middle class oppression. Art that really expresses the human condition can’t really exist.

>> No.10610388

>>10610378
>>10608530
You two sound like you’d get on

>> No.10610403

>>10610347
Actually true, but I still write.

>> No.10610407

>>10610378
how is cultural appreciation middle class oppression, I agree with everything else but that doesnt make any sense

>> No.10610415

>>10607151
You're god damned right. Except I don't even try to hide it. Just plain out told my ex that I didn't read HP as a kid and never would because it's clearly a kiddie series.

>> No.10610435

>>10607317
caeiro detected

>> No.10610452

>>10607781
>>10609464
telemachus was a huge faggot though. some presumedly gay guy in my class wrote a poem about sleeping with telemachus. it was pretty gay and definitely sadboy archetype

>> No.10610462

>>10610347
>>10610403
https://www.firstthings.com/article/2016/08/the-new-middle-ages

>> No.10610479

>you spend more time thinking about how pleased you are to attach yourself and identity to these great works than the actual content of the works themselves
Basically /lit/ in a nutshell

>> No.10610480

>>10610479
>>10608530

>> No.10610486

>>10610336
soddin WANKER

>> No.10610497

>>10610407
Society is just the process of celebrating the oppressive mechanisms of middle class life. Your cultural oppressors try to create a narrative or context in which the things you do and consume matter in order to rationalize your insignificant place in the global economy and distract you from realizing that every thing is a meaningless business in an oppressive industry. All media is corrupt and only exists to expand the reach of a media outlet, creating a world that doesn’t actually exist.

Because human nature is misleading, realize that every industry is built to monopolize the ‘best’ (most misleading) wants, needs, and desires of human nature. Nothing that even ‘feels’ pure & true is ever sustainable. Everything necessary to sustaining ‘healthy’ human beings eventually becomes a branded & commodified human life experience.

Groceries, real estate, & transportation = oppression. Sports, festivals, live events, marathons, television marathons, and anything that consumes your attention span eventually becomes a medium against which to sell advertising, sucking the alleged “life” out of the organic beauty of any art & content.

>> No.10610505

>>10608952
Not trying to be hostile, but what's to differentiate your view from the cuckservative / reactionary line throughout history? The people most willing to be offended by art are those who least understand it. Hitler was a shit artist and wanted Germany to return to the Greco-Roman style. His preferred sculptor was Breker who made cheap, derivative, pseudo-classical pieces. Hitler wanted people to be morally outraged at Entartete Kunst but it mostly proved to be a curiosity show and included good artists like Picasso, Dix, and Kandinsky (okay, taste be damned, they were at least influential artists).

It seems to me that reactionaries who cry about morals and vulgarity are historically the ones who have very dated taste (read: no taste) in art, who think art is something that happened in the past and is dead and needs to be returned to by means of replica and revival. Apologies for the Hitler comparisons, he is the most prominent example of art and censorship.

>> No.10610633

>>10610155
hey, i remember you from a previous thread. you said the same thing, that religion influences all modern society and therefore all modern great writers are influenced by religion. what a useless claim. might as well say every post-renaissance writer was "influenced" by science. therefore science has influenced every great writer for the past 5 centuries. please shift your goalposts some more.

>> No.10610657

>>10610196
>>10610240
>I have never left Europe and am insecure about it: The Poster

>> No.10611107

>>10610505
A lot of the best art of the 20th century was WW2 propaganda

>> No.10611161

>>10607228
>I have yet to meet anyone who genuinely liked Sarte.
Sarte is Camus for big boys.

>> No.10611168
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10611168

>>10607176
>Many people, when they think they enjoy X, in fact only enjoy being the sort of person who enjoys X.
Wrong.
I enjoy Harry Potter fanfictions, but I don't like the sort of person that enjoy Harry Potter fanfictions.

>> No.10611184

>>10608433
How is the weather in England?

>> No.10612120

>>10609307
art should be banned

t. broad one

>> No.10612129

>>10610505
>Not trying to be hostile, but what's to differentiate your view from the cuckservative / reactionary line throughout history?
Censorship for me is a means to different end, namely still subversive but better art. Censorship for them is actually trying to stop such art.

It's kind of how you can be pro-religion for pragmatic reasons while still thinking it's bullshit because it does something positive for society.

>> No.10612136

>>10612129
>use a little bit of censorship to light a fire under artists asses so they have to be creative with their subversions
Good idea desu, don't know if I necessarily agree with it but it's a thought for sure

>> No.10612180

>>10609882
>>10609930
Meh the kid might be projecting and sure he's probably like 19 or whatever, but I can't say I don't relate to what he's saying. I've grown out of it a bit, but I remember when I was in my early 20s I became invested in having "experiences" with art and literature and I would go to a museum, look at amazing works of art, and be like "this is it? what's the big deal?" and convince myself I should be feeling waves of pleasure from seeing Michaelangelo or whatever.

But when I got a bit older I stopped caring as much and I then found it much easier to have sincere experiences with works of art. Sometimes I get moved by "pedestrian" pleb art on deviantart. When I went to the Rijkmuseuem only about 10% of the works I saw did anything for me.

What I'm trying to say with this rambling post, is that, at least for me, when you get a bit older, you stop trying to force yourself to have an experience with works of art. If a lauded work moves you, great. If it doesn't, fuck it - move on.

>> No.10612272

>>10612136
it also requires some skin in the game from the artist's side which would have a beneficial effect in culling the pretentious

>> No.10612936

>>10610232
>Any recommendations of non-obvious Italians?
Pirandello, Pasolini, Malerba, Buzzati for prose.
For something more recent read Q by Luther Blisset (group of authors) or something from the Wu Ming group.
Italian poets are even more underrated compared to the production of english/american authors, but that's understandable. Anyway my favs are: Montale, Leopardi, Saba, Pascoli, Cardarelli.

>> No.10612991

>>10608462
stop shitposting on /lit/ and get back on a CNN panel Bill

>> No.10612997

Raymond Carver is the greatest american writer

>> No.10612999

>>10610240
> Beauvoir

>> No.10613031

>>10611168
that girl looks like she's having a lot of fun desu, what's so wrong with that

>> No.10613705

>>10607086
https://youtu.be/2B6jgkcANRE

>> No.10613873

>>10608462
This is a philosophical opinion

>> No.10614412

>>10608433
This. They’re just a second-rate people, desu.

>> No.10614423

>>10613705
I love this video. Classic.

>> No.10614452

>>10613705
>I'MA BREAK THA GROUND WIT MY VOICE MAKE HIS EYES TURN WHHIIIII-IITE

>> No.10614529

People who dismiss Christopher Hitchens as fedora-core because of his outspoken atheism are missing out on a brilliant writer and cultural critic.

>> No.10614605

>>10607077
Rowling is an actor for an army of ghostwriters.

Her job now is to use her fame to award Diversity Gold Stars and to shill for Rainbow Power on Twitter.

>> No.10614621

nick land is right

>> No.10614697

>>10609368
>Italian lit is underrated
No it really isn't, Giovanni. You only get away with an opinion like this because no one knows about Italian lit, if people actually read it they would see just how unoriginal or dated so much of its "greatest works" are tbqh.
>>10610305
>Malaparte, Ungaretti, Montale, Manganelli, Gadda
Literally only Montale is worth reading.
>Orlando Furioso, Gerusalemme liberata or Petrarch
Boring. Especially Furioso, its a forgettable 'chivalric' yawn that will not interest any modern man, and Petrarch is textbook, flat romantic poetry which has no memorable qualities.

>> No.10614711

>>10614697
9/10 but you gave it away when you called Petrarch "romantic".

>> No.10614724

>>10614711
I mean literally romantic as in themes of love, not the romantic movement, Marco.

>> No.10614734

>>10614724
Still a solid bait tho

>> No.10614740

>>10614734
Keep on coping, sweetie. Your literature deserves its irrelevance.

>> No.10614757

>>10614740
ok lol

>> No.10614783

>>10607077
nietzsche makes a lot of retarded assumptions and he doesn't really btfo other philosopher, he does refute some of their points in his system of belief and interpreting the world, which is kinda broken.

i still love reading him tho.

also aquinas is not the be all end all of philosophy

>> No.10615078

>>10614783
You don't understand Nietzsche.

>> No.10615726
File: 33 KB, 441x343, 1495388996610.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10615726

>>10607986
>>10608530
>tfw this is literally me

>> No.10615786

>>10608530
I feel this way about alcoholic drinks. It's all tastes like isopropyl to me but I can't say that.

>> No.10615795

>>10607369
politics is entirely entirely founded on integrated philosophy and aesthetics. art, phil, and politics are inseparable.

>> No.10615804

>>10614783
>btfo other philosopher, he does refute some of their points in his system of belief and interpreting the world, which is kinda broken.
One beings to mistrust clever people when they become embarrassed -88 BGE

>> No.10615809

>>10607077
reading entire works is obsolete in today's era. It was helpful and even necessary until the TV era at least, when people had fewer distractions, but now we ingest info at an incredibly short wavelength. Reading the entire works of a philosopher in today's era, then going on the internet, watching TV, being exposed to media at the same time represents an imbalance, with the book being much more intensive than any other individual chunk. This means you can't integrate everything into something coherent, and instead get pushed from side to side by whatever you're reading.

>> No.10615826

America's obsession with the Great American Novel is more interesting than any actual American novels.

>> No.10615828

>>10615826
I agree with this.

>> No.10616528

>>10607086
>Same thing goes for everything Stephen King
>Also Camus >>>> Sartre

I wholeheartedly agree.

>> No.10616571

21st century American authors with names like Pynchon, Cheever, Barth, Barthelme, are all soulless, dried up and barren like cracky desert ground. Reading them is like trying to satiate your thirst with . They don't even have the violent capitalist hybrid kick and the fall associated with drinking soda, or, metaphorically, guzzling motor oil... lighting your nerves on fire...
Americans read them because Americans are a race of evil sycophants. Mushy glasses hordes, vainly separated by cubicles and magazine-pens.

Mark Twain and Edgar Allen Poe are not bad men when taken in isolation, maybe in short little doses, but their good reputation is sickly somehow. Makes you want to avoid them.

I like liberalism when I benefit from it and hate it when I suffer from it. Censorship and illiberalism are not in and of themselves good or evil because there are always contrary, noxious instincts and ideas to be stifled, and which must be stifled, in the view of any and all perspectives that exist, even the liberalism which perpetuates itself through illiberality to avoid it... I should like it so that my neuroses and evil impulses are all validated, and those that disgust me are censored. My vices should run free, cause damage, and others should not. Whether one values moreso the fulfillment of one's own vices or the repression of others' is the ultimate determinant factor in their attitude to censorship and restriction.

Catholics are wise but still manage to be complete fools. The wisest Catholic is one that retains the Catholic impulse but abandons the in-denial-about-the-world fantasising... wasn't Flaubert right in calling the Marquis de Sade "ultra-Catholic"?

>> No.10617816
File: 78 KB, 625x626, baitspoil.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
10617816

>>10609889

>> No.10617874

>>10607086
Herbert would still be pumping out books while GRRM can't even finish his series.

Don't worry, Brandon Sanderson will finish it.

>> No.10617884

>>10615726
Its pretty much all of us, anon :/

>> No.10617892

>>10615826
This is such a pretentious non-statement. I loathe the USA's constant search for their "great novel," it distracts from the attention that their best novels should receive as great works in their own right.

>> No.10618295

>>10615809
Nice justification for being a brainlet.

>> No.10618371

I think most /lit/tards buy weighty philosophical tomes and texts for the express purpose of shelving them and showing off to other /lit/tards.

>> No.10618468

>>10607276
>asking God to smite your enemies
>not a good prayer
soycuck detected

>> No.10618495

>>10608938
t. norm

>> No.10618714

>>10611161
>Be in early 20s
>Read Camus
Woah deep, guess I'll embrace the absurdity LMAO, maman died today :DDDDDDD

>Grow up
>Read Sartre
Oh wait all this "exitentialist" stuff is bollocks and I am no better off for having read Sartre.

>> No.10618720

>>10611161
What is the "big boy" version of "The Rebel"

>> No.10618738

>>10618714
I'm the first one right now, but I feel sort of at peace with the absurd.

Will that change dramatically?

>> No.10618783

>>10618738
I read Kierkegaard's Fear and Trembling, then kinda snapped out of thinking that existential reductionism ends with the absurd. The French existentialists eventually begin to seem too keen about the whole "existence precedes essence" stuff.

I think it boils down to whether or not you have a genuine spiritual experience or not. Kierkegaard's knight of faith stuff would seem "absurd" otherwise.
I still think Camus is endearing and cheeky, while Sartre just seems to be a case of sour grapes.

>> No.10618803

For everyone except historians, not only is reading The Greeks a waste of time, it's outright dangerous

>> No.10618807

>>10607077
lord of the rings is trash and j r tolkein is a moron

>> No.10618839

>>10607077
GRRM is a really good writer.

Obviously his prose can be shit, but analyzing his work can provide a lot of insight into proper character development and how plots unfold.

>> No.10618866

>>10607077
>DFW is good
>Pynchon isn’t pretentious
>Joyce is the greatest writer of all time and disputing this is a sign of stupidity
>Kafka is top 10 all time and anyone who has ever said he was a bad writer was an anti-semite (prove me wrong)
>Dumas is worth reading as a kid, you’re just a racist if you say otherwise
>women cannot ever be good artists and should not be allowed to write anything other than poetry and instructional books for grammar
>blacks are almost physically incapable of not writing about oppression
>asians are much better poets than prose writers and this will never change
>chinese poetry is superior to a large amount of Enlightenment era poetry from the Anglosphere
>Faulkner and Hemingway are unreadable garbage
>Islamic poetry is all bad
>the Vedas and Hindu epics are so far superior to the Bible its embarassing
>the Norse Edda is laughably stupid
>Christians are fearful spiritless people and this is why non-mystical strains of them make awful artists
>lit is inferior to poetry which is equal with phil
>if it doesn’t rhyme it is absolutely not poetry unless its written by Asians then its ok
>modern lit is so bad its a crime against the species everyone who wrote past the year 2000 should be executed including Houellebecqu, Bolano, Pinecone etc
>Houellebecqu is the greatest living writer
>women should be banned from academia permanently
>gays are horrible writers but the best painters and sculptors
>mishima is bad
>music is superior to lit but not to philosophy or poetry
>Blake is actually good and if you don’t like him you’re pretentious
>the Romantics are good
>elizabethans are annoying incoherent people with brain diseases and reading them deforms the soul
>Romans are absolutely garbage
>you should start with the Greeks, Sophocles and Homer specifically
>Plato is god tier and people who pretend to be more advanced than him are dangerously stupid niggers
>Revelation is the best book of the bible and Matthew is the best Gospel, Daniel and Genesis runners up
>Don Quixote is only boring for stupid people
>Don Quixote is so funny it should be considered one of the 3 greatest works of fiction ever put to paper with Moby Dick and Ulysses as its counterparts
>Anti-semitism correlates with warped perception of ontology and history and is a warning sign for mental problems
>Adorno was right about everything
>Freud is actually good
>Jung was kind of a fag but still good
>Chomsky is retarded and has contributed nothing to linguistics
>Deleuze is for 130 iq+ only
>Derrida is repulsive and everyone who reads him should be ashamed
>Marx was right, his solutions are just absurd
>Ayn Rand was right about enough that she’s evidence of divine irony
>Focault is regretably necessary to understand 21st century hegemony
>The French are the greatest race of writers with the Irish and American Anglos as their counterparts
>Hegel is scientific, mathematical fact and will be vindicated in 50 years time

>> No.10618898

>>10618866
What a weird yet legitimately intriguing set of opinions

>> No.10618918

>>10618803
An ignorance of Paideia and the pleasure of reading, plebeian

>> No.10618942

>>10618866
t. half jew half chink virgin bernie voter

>> No.10618948

>>10618866
>modern lit is so bad its a crime against the species everyone who wrote past the year 2000 should be executed including Houellebecqu, Bolano, Pinecone etc
>Houellebecqu is the greatest living writer

Pls explain.

>> No.10618959

>>10618803
Why?

>> No.10619185

>>10607200
they are as shit as the frenchtards

>> No.10619267

>>10610155
I'm /BSG/ fan aswell anon

>> No.10619547

>>10618866
Would chill with

>> No.10619579

>>10618948
he's the least terrible of a group of terrible writers, pretty simple

>> No.10619649

>>10607246
I don't agree, I think a novel provides you with a lot of space which you need as a starter. It is much more difficult to write a good short story than a good novel.

>> No.10619692

>>10610240
>HE

>> No.10619805

>>10611161
Name 1 thing you can get out of Sartre that you can't get out Heidegger, besides laughing at some dude's lazy eye.

>> No.10619813

>>10607272
The fact that when King is good, he's really good. The problem is that King is only good when he's on inhuman amounts of coke.

>> No.10619832

>>10607132
>People attracted to philosophy based on its connections to politics are vapid manchildren.
Like Sartre...

>> No.10620185

>>10607151
not me though
i do think /lit/ may elevate me a little however

>> No.10620297

>>10618866
>DFW is good
>Everyone who wrote past the year 2000 should be executed

Nigguh