/clg/ Catholic literature general

[Anonymous No.10145867]

Last thread: >>10129484

Do you know who I AM? I'm the Juggernaut, bitch! Edition https://youtu.be/bSuvOVH0aSQ

Atheists and members of other Christian denominations are welcome but please keep all discussion civil.

Reading/Resources:
https://pastebin.com/PUWNWYyG
https://pastebin.com/u/wolfshiem

[Anonymous No.10145878]

>>10145867
Just to let you know, you share the same acronym with Counter Logic Gaming and the Cis Lesbian General.

[Anonymous No.10145887]

>>10145878
What is a cis lesbian?

[Anonymous No.10145890]

>>10145867
There's no point in starting this thread because there's already another /clg/. I don't mean to be a prick, but just wanted to let you know that you should check the catalog before posting.

[Anonymous No.10145892]

>>10145887
Just a regular lesbian. As opposed to a trans lesbian.

[Anonymous No.10145906]

>>10145890
It reached its bump limit and will auto-sage. I don't mean to be a prick but lurk more newfag.

[Anonymous No.10145915]

I finished reading the Catechism. It was ok. A lot of it seems either metaphysically arbitrary or, like in the case of its psychology, broad to the point of combined uselessness and unweildiness (you can probably jam everything into the categories given, but why would you want to, and the Stoics were better anyway).

Here is my equally arbitrary perspective which has the disadvantage of not being old but feels saner:

* Jesus, like Arjuna, was a friend of God, who is a living principle that transcends any single tradition or faith
* There is psychology of the brain and psychology of the mind. The former is being developed and will eventually be solved. The latter is subjectivity itself and can only be understood and argued about and permuted. There is no such thing as one correct model of mind.
* Most homosexuals are degenerate but that has more to do with homosexuality being a biological accident that has no culture to temper it than with homosexuality qua homosexuality and as such everything you guys think about homosexuality is stupid
* Everything about "you can't do that because it's unnatural" is stupid
* All of your prohibitions against magick are stupid, you might as well say "the practice of science and technology demonstrate, at their core, a desire to change God's creation and for power over man" as the find and replace of that for magick.
* wtf is this weaksauce about "it's not idolatry because the idol symbolizes something". Um, durr? Every symbol symbolizes something. "Aiming past the symbol" is something done with literally every symbol used in any kind of prayer, invocation, evocation etc, unless you are retarded.

[Anonymous No.10145944]

Just as surely as hormones determine temperament, the specific DNA of sperm and egg determine our predisposition to a fate at conception. Is there any theology that addresses DNA and the material formation of life?

[Anonymous No.10146034]

>>10145892
>trans lesbian
aka heterosexuals who want lefty bonus points
and cwc

[Anonymous No.10146089]

>>10145915
So you read a compendium of WHAT the Catholic Church believes expecting it to contain WHY and it seemed arbitrary? What a surprise.

[Anonymous No.10146097]

>>10145944
The idea of a temperament is hardly new, why would there be new theology for this because we discovered the reason behind the fact everyone already knew?

[Anonymous No.10146530]

Anyone read Padre Antonio Vieira's Sermons?

[Anonymous No.10146961]

>>10146034
Or just sexual deviants who feel the need to be pretty or live through arcs were they overcome something.

[Anonymous No.10146978]

>>10145915

[Anonymous No.10147009]

>>10145915

[Anonymous No.10147018]

>>10145915
Oy vey

[Anonymous No.10147246]

>>10145906
>uses the parlance of 4chan as a catholic OP
>Cusses in his sad joke of a post in order to better relate to the intelligent people of 4chan, of which he is not one
>Creates a new /clg/ when there is a far better one up with a far better OP who belongs on this board
>His thread has less than 20 replies and has already devolved into textless posts and social justice memes
>No wolfsheim
I'll pray for you OP

[Anonymous No.10147273]

>>10147246
>caring this much about who starts a thread
>not recognizing Christ in his brother man

Back to your television, zombie.

[Anonymous No.10147278]

>>10145867
Can't this just be called Christian literature general?

[Anonymous No.10147708]

>>10145915

[Anonymous No.10147730]

>>10147278
Why don't you go make one and have nothing but endless debates about who's right? Catholics of course Christian literature can end up being very broad and I don't think any of us want some Mormon mucking it up.

Plus this whole thread is for Catholic literature, why the Hell would it be Christian literature general?

[Anonymous No.10147731]

TOSHIO SHIMAO IS THE GREATEST CATHOLIC AUTHOR OF THE 20TH CENTURY

[Anonymous No.10147758]

>>10147731

You should post this a dozen more times even though nobody responds to it

[Anonymous No.10148125]

help me defeat gluttony brothers. Please recommend some literature on keeping yourself from sin in general as well

[New Sun No.10148161]

Screw it, I'll go namefag too. Made my name obvious for who I am.

Fellow anons, why is Catholicism, and forgive my phrasing, more correct than Orthodoxy?

[Anonymous No.10148180]

Why is the Trinity so beautiful?

[Lapsus No.10148491]

>>10148161
Orthodoxy denies the papacy and the filioque makes more sense theologically

[Anonymous No.10148528]

>>10147278
Needs to be church approved or else Catholics will blindly hate it for hurting their feelings

[Lapsus No.10148562]

>>10148528
Catholicism is more /lit/.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10148580]

>>10145878
That's truly a pointless funfact.

[Anonymous No.10148588]

God says he likes to give wisdom and all you gotta do is ask.

[Lapsus No.10148683]

>>10148180
I’ve been trying to answer this post for a while...

I would like to mention the perfection of the dialectic as Hegel would say...

I would like to mention the Logos...

I would like to think of the Our Father...

I would like to consider the true meaning of the holy spirit...

[Anonymous No.10148695]

>>10148528
Yes, but it's going to be mainly Catholicism anyway because it has had the greatest literary output.

[Anonymous No.10148706]

>>10148180
Because it's utterly organic. It's not something somebody cooked up one day and that was grafted onto authentic Christianity. It follows logically from God's presentation of himself in the Bible, and particularly in the Gospels. It's strange, and seems to be beyond the bounds of human logic, yet if you're a Christian you have to accept it. It's fundamentally divine, and a thing that can be accepted by reason but has to be believed by faith.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10148709]

>>10148161
Because the filioque is correct, because the papacy does have mechanical power over other offices, because divine simplicity is correct as opposed to a separation of essence and energies.

[Anonymous No.10148740]

>WSJ got kicked off twitter again

Yes....YES......

[Anonymous No.10148758]

>>10148740
I sometimes feel like TradCath Twitter is a harbinger of things to come. Thirty years from now we're going to be back in the pre-Vatican 2 days, with ad orientem Masses and excommunications. It's going to be great.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10148759]

>>10148740
?

[Lapsus No.10148766]

I missed confession this week. Felt really disappointed in myself. Attended mass, however. Arrived just in time. Thought that the mass started later and confessions started earlier... nevertheless, I enjoyed the readings and received my blessing.

>catholic feels general

[Anonymous No.10148770]

>>10148759
Woke Space Jesuit, a Francis loving heretic on Twitter.
>>10148758
Can't wait my dude.

[Anonymous No.10148775]

>>10148766
I'm going to have to skip mass today, the priest didn't come for 9am mass and I'm working for a science conference later in the day. Also feels bad man.

[Anonymous No.10148884]

>>10148706
>>10148683
This is what I love to it, and my own spiritual life revolves around contemplating it (especially the Holy Spirit). It just makes me dizzy with joy. It means everything, and yet I can't even begin to explain how.

[Anonymous No.10148899]

>>10148695
this. proddies dont read.

[Anonymous No.10149199]

>>10148899
*posts C.S. Lewis

[Anonymous No.10149214]

>>10149199
Posts Milton and Blake, then realises they were heretical even by their standards.
But James Hogg is actually excellent, Memoirs and Confessions of a justified sinner is the shit and is a perfect parody of sola fide and justification by faith, every Catholic should read it.

[Anonymous No.10149634]

>>10148709
>because divine simplicity is correct as opposed to a separation of essence and energies.

Is there somewhere I can get a good rundown on this debate? Aquinas vs Palamas?

[Anonymous No.10149660]

Will I see you clowns at the Baptist church for the contemporary service beginning 11am?

[Anonymous No.10149673]

>>10149660
No, because I will be at the Congregational

[Anonymous No.10149692]

>>10149634
De Ente et Essentia from Aquinas

[Anonymous No.10149710]

>>10149692
i dont read latin

feser doesnt have a blog post about this?

[Anonymous No.10149719]

>>10146961
At least you used the word "deviant" instead of the stupid word "degenerate." Deviant is a good word because it admits it's different without implying it's necessarily wrong.

[Anonymous No.10149776]

>>10149719
It is necessarily wrong. I can replace it with degenerate if you want. Ontologically contrary to the natural law.

[Anonymous No.10149777]

To mass.

[Anonymous No.10149789]

>>10149710
Not that I know of. Read it in English or whatever, it's translated for sure. >>10149719
Hi Martin SJ, I didn't know you post here.

[New Sun No.10149935]

>>10149777
Gah. I was thinking of going to mass today and woke up too late, so I haven't got a ride that could get me there in time.

[Anonymous No.10150036]

>>10149935
Evening mass. I had to miss it today because I'm working the whole day and the priest wasn't there at 9am for some reason. And I'm working 10am-9pm

[New Sun No.10150136]

>>10150036
I don't think my local church does evening mass sadly. At least, it's not listed on their website. Perhaps I'll go another day when I can.

On a side note, does anyone else find it a bit rich to hear non-Catholics speak about how they like Francis? They don't believe in what he's doing, but gosh golly gee, he agrees with some of their positions so he's an alright guy.

[Anonymous No.10150256]

>>10150136
Of course people like when they are pandered to. These people hate Catholicism and then there's a pope who... Also hates it.

[Anonymous No.10150352]

>>10148770
Give him a few days and he'll be back and will probably have a screenshot of your quote. Weird how he always finds those things.

[Anonymous No.10150443]

>>10150136
Yeah it's really pathetic to see the left lash out against or purge everyone who doesn't have the most extreme position in favor of abortion or homosexuality then say "look our position here is line with Catholic social teaching". I really wish the Church would do more to shut up liberal """Catholics""" like Justin Trudeau from saying shit like abortion is a human right and marching in the pride parade or selling weapons to regimes which persecute Christians.

[Anonymous No.10151098]

>>10150443
https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/sacrilege-archbishop-of-montreal-gives-communion-to-pro-abortion-justin-tru

[Anonymous No.10151405]

How was church today, fellow sinners?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10151548]

>>10148695
>>10148899
Bzzzzzzzt. Wrong. It is true however that Evangelicals don't read and mainline Protestant churches can barely even make a claim to being Christian even if they are better educated and well-read than Evangelicals.

See pic related. The King James Version is yet to be superseded in style (I'm aware that there are superior literal translations). Shakespeare is a genius and while it's possible he might have confessed to Catholicism in his heart, he did attend Anglican churches and his daughters and extended family even married Puritans (even though he mocked Puritans in his plays such as Twelfth Night). Paradise Lost is the only true epic in the English language unless you count Leaves of Grass as an epic. Paradise Lost and Leaves of Grass were written respectively by a Congregationalist and a Quaker. Pilgrim's Progress is an excellent attempt at an allegorical representation of Christ's narrow way into heaven, written by a Baptist. The Anglican Book of Common Prayer's language is impossible to escape in English, so much, we may say "'til death do us part" from it.

With all that said, I'll live and die a Catholic because I consider it the true faith. While there is a bit of heresy in Pilgrim's Progress (the Pope scene) and Paradise Lost (almost the whole work) and a little Catholic-bashing in the Book of Common Prayer (there's a note for the 5th of November in the lectionary), they are incredible classics that have entered our vernacular and are worth reading in order to master our shared culture and tongue. If we want any hope of recovering this valuable, lost part of Christendom, we need to master this canon and learn how to respond to it appropriately to vanquish their heresy.

t. Papist

[Anonymous No.10151626]

>>10151548
Who's saying that there were no great Protestant authors? It's just that extremely few are read for their religious value or influence. And you are incredibly Anglo focused for some reason.

[Anonymous No.10151628]

>>10151548
>only great epic of english language other than perhaps leaves of grass
> The Faerie Queene
also leaves of grass isn't even an epic

[Lapsus No.10151738]

>>10151548
>English language epics
What about modern stuff? The Wasteland? Howl? The Battlefield Where The Moon Says I Love You?

[Lapsus No.10151778]

What are some Catholic essentials?

I found my father’s old Christian Prayer book. It’s like a condensation of the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours into one volume. IIRC, deacons are supposed to follow along with morning and evening prayer but so far I have only been doing night prayer.

Should one read a Roman Missal to gain more familiarity with the Mass? There’s a study version on Amazon. But I am curious about the 1962 Latin/English Missal as well. Is it just the book in the pews?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10151842]

>>10151626
To be clear, when I say Anglo, I broadly mean "English-speaking people." Obviously the Saxons were the more important of the tribes that conquered England but "Anglo" is broadly recognized as referring to English-speaking culture.

These writers broadly influenced all writers in English whether they were American, British, Canadian, Irish, Strayan, or Nigerian. These writers were the cultural foundation for the English who conquered and settled lands within the empire and their biological and cultural descendants. Even Catholic immigrants to the US such as the Irish and Italians would have been familiar with these texts as they were often used for education in American public schools. It's only after WWII that these texts have seen a gradual decline.

Considering we are on an Anglo board, I don't see why you would fuss about my focus on Anglo writers. If you are a Spaniard or descended from one of their former colonies, then obviously your equivalent to my canon would be very different. My canon is more about drawing a universal canon for natives of the English tongue. No other group of writers or texts has influenced the English vernacular. That's why I consider them essential reading for Anglo Catholics (not be confused with Anglo-Catholics, the high church Anglicans).

>>10151628
The Faerie Queene is great, but is more of a patrician choice while my canon was broadly popular. Plenty of English aristocrats and peasants alike read Pilgrim's Progress and imagined themselves as the Eternal Pilgrim, but a cockney might have wondered if you weren't being a bit funny going on about some fairy queen. I'm sure plenty of aristos would have given you an equally clueless look unless they had a literary bent to them.

I've seen other people object to my list for not including Chaucer, but again, Chaucer is more of a poet's poet just as Spenser is. Chaucer would even be less likely to be included in my list because of him writing in Middle English whereas our modern English, whether British or American, is heavily influenced by these books originally published in the 17th century when England was beginning its world conquest.

>>10151738
I've never heard of the third work you mentioned, but Wasteland and Howl are definitely not epics. They're long narrative poems, but not epic by any classical definition.

[Anonymous No.10151849]

>>10151778
>What are some Catholic essentials?
There's so many you'll need to be a lot more specific. What are you interested in?

>Should one read a Roman Missal to gain more familiarity with the Mass? Theres a study version on Amazon. But I am curious about the 1962 Latin/English Missal as well. Is it just the book in the pews?
Yes, but reading it helps as well. Videos on it by the fssp are very interesting as well.

[Anonymous No.10151892]

Who /catholicwriter/ here? A few threads ago we remarked that there seems to have been a falling off of good Catholic writers since the days of Graham Greene, Flannery O'Connor, and JRR Tolkien. We have guys like Gene Wolfe, but they're only here and there, and there are too few of them. I'd like to hope that I could kick things off again, to write work that tries to communicate God's glory and what it means to live in the shadow of it.

[Anonymous No.10151918]

Who are some more writers that converted to Catholicism in the middle of their careers? I've compared the works of Valentin Tomberg before and after and the difference is incredible

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10151937]

>>10151892
I intend to be a Catholic writer. If I fail in that, I hope that I'll be able to educate my children well in the subject.

[Lapsus No.10151942]

>>10151849
>What are you interested in?
I am interested in official books of daily prayer and meditation practices for deepening my faith. Hence why I brought up Christian Prayer book and asked about the Roman Missal. I have always had a great spiritual thirst and even in my apostasy experimented greatly with different spiritual practices such as yoga and buddhism. I suppose I need to talk more in-depth with a priest about such things but people in these threads have accused me of heresy for continuing such practices despite my return to faith. I suppose prayer and rosary are forms of meditation but I am interested if there is like an official doctrinal book on more mental meditations? I was first recommended eastern style meditation from my CBT therapist and feel it has improved my mental health so am loathe to relinquish it without something else to replace it. I try not to do too much chanting of sanskrit and stuff. Dont really think Buddhism is demonic. Maybe shamanism and occultism can be sorta tho.

[Lapsus No.10152066]

>>10151918
Can you tell me more about Tomberg? I was somewhat interested in reading Meditations on the Tarot but know little about its contents.

[Anonymous No.10152070]

Is jesus God? Or is God God?

[Lapsus No.10152114]

>>10152070

[Anonymous No.10152200]

>>10152114
Birch is not pine is not fir is tree

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10152564]

>>10148770
How very strange, that guy. I would love to talk to him.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10152595]

>>10149634
I wouldn't know at all. I'm no expert on the issue but from what I've seen from different texts I don't find the issue all that difficult at all.

First, there is evidence for divine simplicity in the church fathers:

>"For God is simple and non-composite and without shape" - St. John Crysostom

Again from St. John,

>"[Paul] knows [God] in part. But he says, in part, not because he knows Gods essence while something else of his essence he does not know; for God is simple. Rather, he says in part because he knows that God exists, but what God is in his essence he does not know" -St. John Crysostom

>"Far removed is the Father of all from those things which operate among men, the affections and passions. He is simple, not composed of parts, without structure, altogether like and equal to himself alone. He is all mind, all spirit, all thought, all intelligence, all reason . . . all light, all fountain of every good, and this is the manner in which the religious and the pious are accustomed to speak of God" -St. Iraneaus, Against Heresies 2:13:3

part1/2

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10152599]

>>10152595
part 2/2
>"But there is neither nor ever shall be such a dogma in the Church of God that would prove the simple and incomposite [God] to be not only manifold and variegated, but even constructed from opposites. The simplicity of the dogmas of the truth proposes God as he is" -St. Gregory of Nyssa, Against Eunomius 1:1:222

>We perceive the operation of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit to be one and the same, in no respect showing differences or variation; from this identity of operation we necessarily infer the unity of nature. -St. Basil, Letters

The strength of the latter quote being the comment of essence. If we were to weigh Palamas' interpretation of God against this view the argument of St. Basil would fall to plurality of essence and lead to the same "polytheism" criticism it is known to get.

Despite all of this, though, the essence/energies distinction is also present in the church fathers. The issue that causes the conflict is grasping the distinctions between the two, to which there is almost nothing and the situation largely arises from the difference in terms that developed over time between the west and east. The Orthodox would state that God's essence is distinct from reality and that what is present sustaining reality are "energies" of God but the distinction is not an ontological one and God is still one. The Catholic view is that God is simplistic and so is synonymous with His essence but his essence cannot be apprehended by those in nature and so still remains transcendent.

I would go so far as to say that this is more a semantic issue than anything. The Catholics are more precise, however.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10152616]

>>10149660
Depends on what you mean by clowns.

>>10151548
Who would consider Leaves of Grass an epic by any measure? It's excellent but that's just poor terminology.

>>10151892
I have not read enough Catholic fiction to know what Catholic writing looks like thematically, but I'm doing a little writing on the side.

>>10152070
Jesus is the material incarnation of the Logos.

[Lapsus No.10152635]

>>10152616
Any thoughts on my queries, Wolf?

[Anonymous No.10152681]

Sell a Protestant on Catholicism in a paragraph.

[Anonymous No.10152718]

Does anyone here watch The Young Pope? This show is so good.

[Anonymous No.10152818]

Greetings from an Anglican. I'll never understand why you guys feel the need to exclude all your Christian brothers but I'll have you know that a /christian general/ is always open to you and so is our communion. The one true church is the universal church of all Christians, not Rome. Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican, Catholic, Orthodox, Congregationalist, Presbyterian... doesn't matter as long as Jesus is the Lord and your savior.

With much love,

Anglo-scum.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10152868]

>>10151778
In terms of bare essentials I'd think:

>Bible (recommending Ignatius Study Bible)
>Missal
>Laudate app

I would include the Laudate app due to its plentiful resources for most everything else. Prayers, encyclopedia, catechism, daily readings, and assistance for examinations of conscience.

I have poor memory for prayers so its interactive rosary helps me a lot.

>>10151942
In terms of understanding Buddhist (specifically Zen) spiritual practices in comparison to Christian ones I'd recommend Mystics and Zen Masters by Thomas Merton. This is all I'd recommend of Thomas Merton's eastern stuff, however. He's generally a good resource for introduction to Christian spirituality and general contemplation. St. Ignatius (his Spiritual Exercises), St. Teresa of Avila, and St. John of the Cross should be your more advanced writers on Christian contemplation.

If you're looking into meditative practices, the rosary is the most obvious meditative devotion in Catholicism. The focus should be on the mysteries for each decade rather than just saying the Hail Marys however. Lectio Divina is also good, albeit simplistic. Other examples I don't know a name for can be found in the authors I gave you.

This is not quite spiritual practices but if you want a good bridge from a semi-educated layperson to a fully devout layperson I would recommend Introduction to the Devout Life by St. Francis de Sales. It's one of my favorite books and systematically provides what is basically a beginner's Ladder of Divine Ascent along with advice.

I hope this helps >>10152635

[Anonymous No.10152889]

>>10152818
Because nobody else is the One True Church.

[Anonymous No.10152905]

How do you go from philosophical theism to Christianity? When I attempt to answer this question all I can come up with is the historical case for Christ. That Jesus actually being who he said he was provides the best explanation for a number of events surrounding his life and death, like the empty tomb, the resurrection appearances and conversion of Saul but is that it? Is that all we have to make to make the jump from simple theism to Christianity?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10152915]

>>10152616
It's not a classical epic. Whitman unironically wanted to start something similar to a religion with Leaves of Grass. He wanted to write a unique "leaf" for each day of the year to be read akin to the lectionary of the Book of Common Prayer. It's epic in the way that the Bible is an epic, but not in the way that the Iliad and the Aeneid are. In fact, Paradise Lost still can't quite shed that classical vein despite having Biblical subject matter, but Leaves of Grass seems like unadulterated Biblical cadence to my ears.

I mean, if one were to label the Bible with an encompassing term, how is it anything but an epic with varying styles from book to book? From a Christian perspective, it has a very linear, defined structure, starting from the legalistic Hebrews, to the prophets hinting towards Christ, then Christ's life, then interpretation from the apostles.

Considering Homer was sacred literature to the Greeks, I reckon the only thing that makes the Bible different from classical literature is the lack of care for unified form in the Bible. Epics, such as those by Homer and Virgil, were sacred literature for the Greeks and Romans, just as the Bible is for Jews and Christians.

So... maybe it's just me and a few other enlightened individuals (my good sirs), but calling Leaves of Grass a mere "poetry collection" doesn't seem right. Calling it an epic just seems a better fit. Considering that he was constantly publishing new editions with new poems and improvements upon the old poems, I don't think his intention was for it to be a mere collection. After all, he published other books that were obviously collections on certain, more specific themes. No, Leaves of Grass is aiming for a total definition of life the way most epics do.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10152931]

>>10152868
>St. Teresa of Avila
Her work was mentioned today in the homily. Apparently today is her feast day! If it wasn't for my preoccupation with cracking the Anglo code I would currently be reading her and St. John of the Cross. Sadly I never read them back when I was more of a prolific reader, so they're high on my list now that I'm as Catholic obsessed as I am Anglo.

[Anonymous No.10152946]

>>10152818
You may as well ask why we wouldn't allow Mormons or Muslims into a christian general.

[Anonymous No.10152971]

>>10152818
If you're not a catholic, you're not christian.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10152983]

>>10152818
Your pic is not much better than one of those cringey coexist stickers.

Protestants have created plenty of great art and philosophy, but you completely botched theology. I have a soft spot for you Anglicans but your church is in decline. Join the rest of the conservative Anglicans and cross the Tiber back home. The Catholic Church is our last chance if you believe in the West.

[Anonymous No.10152991]

>>10145867
Who are some of your favourite lesser-known saints? For me it's St Angela of Foligno

[Anonymous No.10152993]

>>10152681
proties will burn in hell for their heresy.

[Anonymous No.10153026]

>>10152991
I feel some connection with Saint Benedict Joseph Labre.

And Saint John of God.

[Anonymous No.10153028]

>>10152818
>>10152889
>>10152946
>>10152971
>>10152983

Politics, ha. How can Catholics even call themselves Christians when they condemn others who follow Christ. I'll tell you how: Rome doesn't deserve the keys it was given. Mortal scum.

[Anonymous No.10153035]

>>10152991
I am a big fan of St. Francis de Sales, in large part because he is my confirmation saint. He should be better known on /lit/, especially, because he's the patron saint of writers and journalists. Also, his "Introduction to the Devout Life" is a really great introduction to living a life of holiness as a layperson.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153043]

>>10152991
Any royal saint because I would like to see more political leaders who are zealous Catholics.

>>10152993
Great argument.

[Anonymous No.10153052]

>>10153028
>Rome doesn't deserve the keys it was given
That's for God to decide.

[Anonymous No.10153063]

>>10153026
Labre seems really cool, I'll have to study his life in more detail.

>>10153035
I'm yet to read his book, but I do know some of his prayer techniques from friends which have been helpful.

>>10153043
The only ones I know at St Stephen of Hungary (who's relics I got to see in Budapest a few years back) and Blessed Charles I of Austria

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10153075]

>>10152681
"No".

>>10152818
There are multiple changes in the faith between all these denominations. Primarily between Protestantism and Catholicism. There is a denial of other denominations because we wish to focus on what is right and good and not lead people astray.

Thinking people can be alright as heretics just because they all support Jesus as their lord is bad enough as-is. Especially when many of them differ on what that even means.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153085]

>>10153063
>St. Stephen's relics in Budapest
Awesome. Good on you.

That picture I posted was of St. Louis of France. Most Americans have indirectly heard of him because of St. Louis, Missouri. Charlemagne is also a Blessed. You would be amazed by how many English royal saints there are considering the path they later went down. Obviously the greatest royal saint in terms of power was Constantine. I would love living in such an empire. Anyway, there's a wiki on the subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_royal_saints_and_martyrs

I'm sure there are other great ones I'm forgetting.

[Anonymous No.10153095]

>>10153075

>Thinking people can be alright as heretics just because they all support Jesus as their lord is bad enough as-is.

Thinking you're even in any position to pass judgement when the Jesuit who run your church continue to secretly perpetrate massive crimes against humanity is bad enough as-is.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153103]

>>10153095
>le papist conspiracy meme
>being this new to historical cliches
Sounds like you could do with a little counter-reformation yourself desu senpai.

[Anonymous No.10153112]

>>10153103

>this damage control

If you think a place like the Vatican has managed to consolidate as much wealth and influence as it has over time sans crime and misery you are completely delusional. I doesn't even follow the most cursory logic.

Not that you care, apologist.

[Anonymous No.10153115]

>>10153103

>this damage control

If you think a place like the Vatican has managed to consolidate as much wealth and influence as it has over time sans crime and misery you are completely delusional. It doesn't even follow the most cursory logic.

Not that you care, apologist.

[Anonymous No.10153117]

>>10153103

>this damage control

If you think a place like the Vatican has managed to consolidate as much wealth and influence as it has over time sans crime and misery you are completely delusional. It doesn't even follow the most cursory logic.

Not that you care, apologist.

[Anonymous No.10153121]

>>10153112
>>10153115
>>10153117
Denying the Truth three times? Where else have I seen such a thing?

[Anonymous No.10153133]

>>10153121

One of them wasn't me. Judging by the oddly desperate line you're trotting out right now it was probably you.

[Anonymous No.10153140]

>>10153117
>moaning about wealth and influence when the English deformation was fundamentally founded upon the theft of church property

[Anonymous No.10153141]

>>10153133
it was just a prank bro chill

[Anonymous No.10153147]

>>10153140

>passing the buck yet again

It's like you don't even want your church back.

>>10153141

Alright, but these guys go into full denial mode and fight tooth and nail whenever this is brought up so pardon me if I took that post at face value.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153153]

>>10153117
I wasn't doing any damage control, although you could do with a vaccine for countering heresy.

>Vatican wealth acquired by crime and misery
[citation needed]

What's next, are you going to quote me some Dan Brown?

>apologist
Do you even know what that means? Usually this just means "guy who is in favor of something I deeply oppose" in modern parlance.

>>10153133
Like pottery.

[Anonymous No.10153155]

>>10152983
>muh culture """"Catholic""""
You are the worst kind of Christian

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153164]

>>10153155
Come back to me when you have an actual argument.

[Anonymous No.10153169]

ITT:
A representative of one group of humans accuses another group of humans of being the worst group of humans

[Anonymous No.10153174]

>>10153164
If you honestly picked your religion because of some idea of cultural hegemony so you can pat yourself on the back then you are a disgrace to that religion

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153177]

>>10153169
>"we're all just humans bro, can't we all just get along?"

[Anonymous No.10153182]

>>10153153

>Vatican wealth acquired by crime and misery
>[citation needed]

It's comical how willfully ignorant and stubborn you Catholics become about this issue.

[Anonymous No.10153185]

>>10152718
It's stupid, without any idea what it wants to be, theologically illiterate and sometimes incredibly stupid. But some scenes are amazing.

[Anonymous No.10153191]

>>10153164
Your culture won't save you from Hell, Anon.

[Anonymous No.10153192]

Can Wolfsheim come back and put the kids to bed, they're being noisy

[Anonymous No.10153193]

>>10152818
"It firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the catholic church, not only pagans but also Jews or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless they are joined to the catholic church before the end of their lives; that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is of such importance that only for those who abide in it do the church's sacraments contribute to salvation and do fasts, almsgiving and other works of piety and practices of the Christian militia produce eternal rewards; and that nobody can be saved, no matter how much he has given away in alms and even if he has shed his blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and the unity of the catholic church."
One cannot love the head and hate the body or participate in one without the other.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153200]

>>10153174
I didn't pick Christianity; I was born into it. My parents were not secular atheists nor am I some cannibal polytheist from Papua New Guinea. I have no conversion experience to speak of. Religion is rarely something we "pick."

[Anonymous No.10153202]

>>10153177
More like:
>accusing an organisation of committing atrocities during the Middle Ages is a meaningless accusation

[Anonymous No.10153205]

>>10153192

>can Papa please come back and reaffirm my sports team addled misgivings, I want to believe that all the problems in the world are external to the church because the truth is too upsetting for me to deal with

[Anonymous No.10153206]

>>10153200
>I was born into it.
Oh, so it must be right then.

[Anonymous No.10153210]

>>10145867
What are the essential works by each of the Doctors of the Church? Please one work each if at all possible

[Anonymous No.10153212]

>>10153202
Execution of heretics isn't an atrocity, son.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153215]

>>10153191
Sure, Christendom is its own culture and I believe it is the one culture that guarantees salvation. Why are you splitting hairs about this?

[Lapsus No.10153217]

>>10152868
Thank you. The laudate app seems useful. Mystics and Zen Masters sounds right up my alley. Introduction to the Devout Life also seems like something I need. I will reserve those other authors for the future.


Do you, or any other anons reading, know of anything regarding Catholicism and Yoga?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153223]

>>10153206
Never implied that. I'm just laughing at your notion of "picking" religion. It's as cringey as when you hear someone talking about the "markeplace of ideas."

[Anonymous No.10153225]

>>10153215
It's not a matter of culture. It's a matter of the Church as the carrier of Christ's will, the Church as God's instrument on Earth. You can't just be satisfied with the trappings and physical elements of Catholicism. You have to actually believe what the Church teaches, obey what it tells you to do, and participate in the Sacraments it administers. To truly be Catholic demands an active faith, a belief in the Resurrection and all that flows from it. Otherwise you're no better than an atheist. That's why newly converted believers in Ghana and Vietnam are superior to people in Italy and Spain whose families have been Catholic for generations, but who don't believe and don't practice. Belief and practice are all that are important. The culture is just a side effect.

[Anonymous No.10153229]

>>10153223
>I'm just laughing at your notion of "picking" religion
how do you think your religion managed to take root in the first place? people chose to practice it over the practices that they were born into. do you have no understanding of history at all?

[Anonymous No.10153255]

>>10153210
h-hello?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153256]

>>10153225
Religion rules morals and morals rule culture. Culturally I am indeed a Catholic with American manners. You're splitting hairs.

I've recognized that plenty of nonwhite Catholics are better Catholics than traditional defenders of the faith as you've mentioned. After all, my confessor is from one of those former colonies of a Catholic empire. However, because we are members of another shared culture, that of Christendom, we are able to share a common experience that transcends national boundaries.

>>10153229
>people chose to practice it over the practices that they were born into.
Well, gee, my family was Catholic for centuries, so you'd have to go back about a thousand years to find the first genuine pagan, but to be honest you with you, I don't know what exactly compelled them to convert to Christianity. Maybe they just got tired of doing stupid things like worshipping trees and human sacrifices? No idea mate.

I love my way of life and I believe Christianity is critical to sustain it.

[Anonymous No.10153265]

>>10153256
well that was a very "gee shucks" response. point is you were laughing at something and calling it cringe and now you're being slick and conceding the historical necessity of it. why are you such a bad poster?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10153267]

>>10152905
>How do you go from philosophical theism to Christianity?

Philosophical theism can get you far. That can get you the majority of the worldview and major aspects of the lifestyle, which is a monumental task as-is. From there you are to connect the worldview you know as reality to a tradition that seems to reveal it and give argumentation that it is truly is revealed rather than just coincidence that there is similarity. From there it depends on the religion. For Christianity, it means discovering the legitimacy of the church's authority and you're set from there, barring some discourse over claims to church authority.

>>10152915
I have a hard time viewing this as an epic in a genre sense but I see what you're talking about and I have a hard time rejecting it.

Well said and well played, Donne.

>>10152991
Seconding St. Francis de Sales.
Also St. Eugene de Mazenod because of my own personal struggles.

[Anonymous No.10153287]

>>10153223
True faith is born out of those who discover truth on their own.

[Lapsus No.10153289]

>>10152905

[Lapsus No.10153295]

>>10153265
>>10153287
I think a lot of Cradle/Cultural Catholics have a period where they lapse and become apostates and later experience metanoia and see the spiritual value of the church as they grow older and more mature. Kind of a prodigal son think. A loss of innocence. But it is restored to a higher state. Like the subversion of tragedy of crucifixion through the comedy of the resurrection. God forgives all who ask Him. And thus one returns to the Truth after abandoning it and finding other truths inferior.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10153297]

>>10153095
>Thinking you're even in any position to pass judgement when the Jesuit who run your church continue to secretly perpetrate massive crimes against humanity is bad enough as-is.

The current leadership of the church being poor doesn't weigh against its legitimacy of the institution they help lead.

I see you're not attacking my core points, however. Just attacking my view of what's right. This is not helpful.

>>10153117
>>10153121
>>10153103
>>10153182


Defending your view with rhetoric is not helpful against those that staunchly disagree with you. You are all part of the Body of Christ and you all see issues with one another that separate one another from it. We should be mending rather than causing more derision.

If there are grievances and arguments to present to one another then we do no good to one another to hide them behind rhetoric and reject one another instead of speaking honestly about it.

[Anonymous No.10153321]

>>10153297

>The current leadership of the church being poor doesn't weigh against its legitimacy of the institution they help lead.

But the fact that you're willing to concede that there are problems with the current leadership of the church means the world of difference. Most Catholics won't allow themselves to admit as much publicly, or even to themselves -- though I do think you're severely downplaying the damage the Jesuit have done over the centuries for very intentionally nefarious ends, but that you'd at least state that there are issues with leadership in general is nice to hear.

For the record I don't want to try and turn Catholics away from their church. Nothing of the sort. It's the willful ignorance that many have toward certain issues that is so frustrating.

[Anonymous No.10153324]

>>10153321
It sounds to me like you may lack faith, Anon.

[Anonymous No.10153332]

>>10153324

Don't get passive aggressive, anon.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10153405]

>>10153210
>Pope Gregory I
Magna Moralia
>St. Ambrose
On Faith
>St. Augustine
The City of God
>St. Jerome
Nothing comes to mind
>St. Thomas Aquinas
Summa Theologica (Have fun)
>St. John Chrysostom
Paschal Homily
>St. Basil the Great
On the Holy Spirit
>St. Gregory of Nazianzus
Body and Soul
>St. Athanasius
Against the Heathen (has a sequel)
>St. Bonaventure
On the Reduction of Arts to Theology
>St. Anselm
Cur Deus Homo
>St. Isidore of Seville
On the Catholic Faith Against the Jews (Because I won't have you sit through the Etymologiae)
>St. Peter Chrysologus
Literally any sermon
>St. Leo the Great
The Tome
>St. Peter Damian
De Divina Omnipotentia
>St. Bernard of Clairvaux
De Diligendo Dei
>St. Hilary of Poitiers
De Trinitate (Have fun)
>St. Alphonsus Liguori
The Moral Theology
>St. Francis de Sales
Introduction to the Devout Life
>St. Cyril of Alexandria
Becoming Temples of God
>St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Catecheses
>St. John Damascene
Fountain of Wisdom
>St. Bede the Venerable
You just thank this guy for what he enabled you to read
>St. Ephrem
It's literally a bunch of hymns. Browse. Many are educational.
>St. Peter Canisius
Summa doctrinae christianae
>St. John of the Cross
Dark Night of the Soul
>St. Robert Bellarmine
De Controversiis
>St. Albertus Magnus
Opera Omnia (lol)
>St. Anthony of Lisbon and Padua
Wouldn't know. Pray that you find it.
>St. Lawrence of Brindisi
Mariale
>St. Teresa of Ávila
Interior Castle
>St. Catherine of Siena
Dialogues
>St. Thérèse of Lisieux
Story of a Soul
>St. John of Ávila
Nothing comes to mind, sorry.
>Hildegard of Bingen
Liber Divinorum Operum
>St. Gregory of Narek
Book of Prayers

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10153416]

>>10153217
Glad I could help.
>Do you, or any other anons reading, know of anything regarding Catholicism and Yoga?

I do not, I'm sorry.

>>10153225
This is some goodposting right here.

>>10153321
>Most Catholics won't allow themselves to admit as much publicly, or even to themselves -- though I do think you're severely downplaying the damage the Jesuit have done over the centuries for very intentionally nefarious ends, but that you'd at least state that there are issues with leadership in general is nice to hear.

Oh, you're speaking of the Jesuits as a group and not some current leadership or specifically Pope Francis? At this point I'm very questionable as I know the Jesuits as a group are about spreading into other cultures to evangelize and with the Reformation there has been a demonization of them, much like most of Catholic history by the reformation.

I'm open to the idea of them having caused large problems but I don't see the evidence for the view at all and I have seen a lot of evidence of people seeking to call them and others like them evil.

Where do you get this view of the Jesuits from? Further, why are we going from the idea of interdenominational threads to supposed horrors of the Jesuits?

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10153443]

>>10153267
On another, similar subject... a rare moment where I agree with Harold Bloom was where he attributed Shakespeare's play structures to the Bible; the Acts in Shakespeare's plays were added in by editors whereas Shakespeate originally wrote the plays with scene after scene with no indication for acts. This approach totally disregards the classical formula for 3 acts and unity of time and action. Bloom attributes this approach to the Bible because the authors of the books take as much time as they feel necessary to tell their story.

I think the Bible is severely underrated as a literary influence, hence my constant shilling of my Anglo Canon meme. I might be mistaken, but I don't think any other language has produced literature with so many people self-consciously imitating the vernacular of their Bible.

>>10153287
Yeah, but what if you have already received excellent instruction and guidance on the truth since day 1? Personally I always had my values learned from childhood, even when I was a hedonist for a some years, because I was merely rebelling against the values that had already been instilled in me. A true conversion, an abandonment of one set of values for another, on the other hand, is insanely difficult. Read the story of the conversos in Spain and you can see just how difficult it is for one to shed the faith they were born into.

>>10153297
Good reminder to be constructive. I do let my shitposting get out of hand sometimes.

[New Sun No.10154094]

>>10153295
Can confirm this happened to me.

[Anonymous No.10154208]

why do catholic priests keep fucking children?

[Anonymous No.10154239]

>>10154208

Do they? What reason do you have to believe priests are more disposed toward it than any other group?

[Anonymous No.10154258]

>>10154208
Proofs?

[Anonymous No.10154265]

>>10154239
i have the hand written testimony of over one million nonce priests that i have collected over the years..they're depraved fuckers. I wouldn't let one of them near my dog, nevermind a child.

god only knows why catholic priests are driven to abuse children in such high numbers

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jHqndf9Kx4

[Anonymous No.10154268]

>>10154265

I value your opinion

[Anonymous No.10154276]

>>10154265
>that pic
Probably the edgiest music performance in the history of television.
"Fight the real enemy" like what the fuck

[Anonymous No.10154281]

>>10154258
I have video taped hundreds of incidents of catholic priests abusing children round the world.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10154285]

>>10154208
They don't. They have a smaller rate of abuse than the surrounding population and other major institutions such as schools.

[Anonymous No.10154299]

>>10154265
>>10154281
Protie fucks.

[Anonymous No.10154309]

>>10154285
This. the Church scandal meme is just a projection of the media's own sins

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10154511]

Do you have any Christian imagery you carry on you?

I use Laudate to handle my rosaries but these beads I keep in my pocket at all times as a personal reminder to pray.

[Anonymous No.10154520]

>>10154285
but they systematically cover it up

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10154540]

>>10154520
Some higher up leadership did in the 50s-70s or so, yes. The centralization, morality, and sheer importance of the institution has made this a big story but it is heavily overplayed. To the point people think it's rampant or even common when it's less common than abuse most anywhere else.

[Anonymous No.10154598]

>>10154520
What do you expect from homosexuals bishops and priests (was a pretty large cast amongst modernists)? Of course they'll try to abuse boys, it's their main thing.

[Anonymous No.10154642]

>>10154520

You may find some isolated cases but generally speaking I don't think there was any cover ups. The wisdom of the time dictated that pedophiles could be sent to psychotherapy and fixed, and when that treatment was complete they could safely be sent back to work. You see this same behavior in every institution that dealt with children at the time, like if a teacher molested a child they wouldn't be sent to jail, but instead to treatment and then they might return to teaching once that was complete. The reason these priests were moved around was actually to protect the victims from having to interact with the "cured" priests.

[Anonymous No.10154736]

what do we think of pic related?

[Anonymous No.10154749]

>been out for 7 months
>/lit/ now has a papist statue-worshipper general

[Anonymous No.10154786]

Excuse my shitty english, but why are you Christian? There's islam, hinduism, judaism, deism, pagan religions (not to mention pantheism, deism and the like) and most believers follow their religion simply because of the circumstances that they were born in. Even then there's plenty of branches of christianity itself, baptists, catholics, orthodox, mormons, etc.
There's so many answers that we try to create, what makes you believe that you were lucky enough to believe the right doctrine?
It just doesn't sit right with me, that God would create this stupid roulette which determines people's beliefs and damns them from the beggining.

[Anonymous No.10154793]

>>10154786
>what has the christian world achieved
>what has the non-christian world achieved

[Lapsus No.10154807]

>>10154511
I was thinking about this actually...

I only own one Christian accessory. It is a cross ring like pic related I received for my confirmation from a family member. It no longer fits but I keep it in a holy box with various cards and rosaries... I accumulated quite a bit of cards and rosaries during childhood catholic education.

At the moment, I dont own much in the way of accessories nor does my edc include much aside from phone wallet keys and so on. I do, however, have a Tibetan Buddhist five element bracelet I started wearing when I started yoga and a leather witch bracelet from Salem given to me by a friend. I wear the Tibetan one because its simple and colorful but not the Salem one is unattractive and looks vaguely swastika-ish. /heresy

Upon examination, it seems odd that I dont possess more Christian imagery. My father wore a small gold cross on a chain around his neck IIRC. Seems like it would be a nice reminder to carry something. But I would also hate to be obnoxious or ostentatious about my faith.

[Lapsus No.10154817]

>>10154807
Forgot pic

Can rings be resized? :thinkboi:

[Anonymous No.10155073]

>>10148770
he's coming back bitch. he shall destroy the trads, inshallah.

[Anonymous No.10155080]

>>10154736
Greene is great in general but I haven't read that one.
>>10154749
Lit has always been a papist central.
>>10154786
Examination leads you to the truth, it's not really that complicated. It's like asking why are you a thomist and not a kantian. Obviously I think it's correct.

[Anonymous No.10155100]

[Anonymous No.10155103]

>>10155100
cardinal sarah is bad lol u stupid shit-trad

[Anonymous No.10155115]

>>10155100
>Having a black pope
>Trad

[Anonymous No.10155131]

Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

[Lapsus No.10155134]

>>10155115
Wow. Ur so witty. U must be great at parties.

[Anonymous No.10155155]

>>10155100
God be with you, Cardinal Sarah

[Anonymous No.10155161]

>>10155073
>>10155103
Since when did left-Catholic twitter come here. Shouldn't you be listening to Chapo or defending trannies and abortion?

[Anonymous No.10155192]

>>10155161
The insallah anon was clearly being ironic.

[Anonymous No.10155204]

>>10155192
Yeah but a lot of those guys liked to listen to nasheeds and had a Shia fetish. Sorry for being retarded I just wasn't sure.

[Anonymous No.10155214]

>>10154793
*Catholic

[Anonymous No.10155239]

>>10155192
>>10155204
i was being 100% serious you absolute fucking turbo nerds. and chapo fucking sucks.

[Anonymous No.10155242]

>>10155239
also long live the islamic republic of iran. unironically.

[Anonymous No.10155251]

>>10155214
>implying Catholics did anything worthy besides inspiring some artistic fanfiction
All of the progress we owe to Protestant and Orthodox countries.

[Anonymous No.10155257]

>>10155251
get fucked prot

[Anonymous No.10155276]

>>10153052
>That's for God to decide
Don't you see the signs? He has decided.

We have a Pope kissing the feet of filthy Arabs and a Church that hides and excuses the abuse of the least of us. It's over.

[Anonymous No.10155282]

>>10155251
I agree there is plenty of "progress" that can be ascribed to you and your ilk

[Anonymous No.10155304]

>>10155276
We had a pope kissing the feet of Arians and it wasn't over. Why would 5-10 years of Francis mean it's over?

[Anonymous No.10155463]

Do papists need an echo-chamber 100% of their life? By throwing out protestants and orthodox you've cut out a significant portion of Western literature. Shakespeare, Milton, Melville, ALL the Russians, etc. etc.

Also, British Protestantism is the source for the success of the "novel" as art to begin with. This thread is laughable. Move along

[Anonymous No.10155469]

>>10155463

and allow me to clarify, *christian inspired Western literature

[Anonymous No.10155502]

>>10155251
>progress

Not all change is for the better, Anon.

[Anonymous No.10155526]

>>10155463

How do you go from seeing a thread specifically for Catholic literature to the belief that Catholics only read Catholic literature?

[Anonymous No.10155530]

>>10155304
I feel like a big part of becoming a mature, faithful Catholic is realizing that the Church has gone through shit before and will go through shit in the future, until Christ comes again. We survived the Arian crisis, we survived the Avignon popes, we survived the fucking antipopes, we survived the French Revolution. We'll survive whatever Francis does.

[Anonymous No.10155537]

I've come here because I don't know where else to ask


How can I live a better life? I'm manipulative, lie compulsively, and an highly impulsive. I get so incredibly bored living a normal life. What do I do?

[Anonymous No.10155539]

>>10155537

Pretend to be a good person

[Anonymous No.10155560]

>>10155537
Well, Anon, it seems to me that you should try to live a not-normal life. Being Catholic can help you with that, but you'll have to change yourself in the process.

[Anonymous No.10155571]

>>10155537
Seek professional help. Recognize you owe others better than what you have been giving. Sort yourself out bucko.

[Anonymous No.10155577]

>>10155560
That quote is stunning. I sometimes wonder if I'm deluding myself by being a Christian, because I can tell that I'm doing it in large part to avoid the worldly life. Good to know that that's not my own abuse of it, but actually what it is.

[Anonymous No.10155582]

>>10155577
Remember, Anon, we're only pilgrims in this world.

[Anonymous No.10155588]

>>10152993
why? they believe in christ and the Resurrection.

[Anonymous No.10155593]

>>10155537
drugs, psychedelics in particular, the church hates it thought because realizing you are God means you no longer need them, thus damages their bottom line, they put Jesus on a pedestal and say he was the only one when actually all of you are but most of you have chosen to forget

[Anonymous No.10155599]

>>10155530
the difference being, of course, that the claims the Catholic church makes should imply a higher standard of conduct.

[Anonymous No.10155600]

>>10155593
GET OUT OF THIS THREAD HERESY

[Anonymous No.10155628]

>>10155600
>Had multiple direct experiences of God,
>saw him face to face
>get called a heretic for telling people how they can do it too
waap waaap waaaaaaaa

you'll figure out who your are someday anon

[Lapsus No.10155749]

>>10155628
I have taken psychedelics quite a few time. They are quite pleasurable. The feelings of unity and bliss do seem quite spiritual. But it is true spirituality or hallucination? I have never been one with God in the sense that Christ is as a member of the Trinity. At best I have felt union with nature... but pantheism is an incomplete picture of God, at the very least one should be panentheist. Wise men of every tradition say that you need to practice meditation and not just drugs to develop true spirituality. I think part of this is because the spiritual path can be dangerous if you don’t accumulate good habits beforehand. Catholicism provides community support and moral guidance that just taking drugs can lack. Especially because many drug users adopt immature anti-authority attitudes.


Also psychedelics can cause severe mental disturbance and psychosis in rare individuals, should be recommended with utmost caution.

[Anonymous No.10155768]

>>10155749
>I have never been one with God
take a higher dose,

I'll allow the rest,

funny word authority

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10155808]

>>10155282
This infograph is fake news.

[Anonymous No.10155955]

>>10155080
>Lit has always been papist central

Wrong, this board was mostly atheist/agnostic until the /pol/ infiltration since the election, and most of the smart people went to /leftypol/, leaving behind the fascists and ultramonatists which infest threads like this

[Anonymous No.10155965]

>>10155955
/lit/ started having an interest in religion, and Christianity specifically, as far back as 2014.

[Anonymous No.10155968]

>>10155965
>>10155955
/lit/ used to be orthodox

[Anonymous No.10155986]

>>10155968
Actually it's the Orthodox shilling that's pure /pol/. /pol/ likes Orthodoxy because it's got cool outfits, men with beards, and obscure rituals in languages they don't speak. To them it might as well be paganism, which they're also fans of.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156013]

>>10155986
This. Orthodoxy is a meme unless you belong to one of the ethnic groups that practice Orthodoxy. Then, say, if you're Greek and have lapsed, then returning to your faith is a worthy commitment, however, I would still encourage a Greek to convert to the Roman Catholic Church.

[Anonymous No.10156036]

>>10155986
>>10156013
>forgetting about tripfaggots like Constantine

Not all of the orthodoxy autism is /pol/, I think a lot of people even on /lit/ like the extreme autism

[Anonymous No.10156039]

>>10156036
>>10156013
>>10155986
I meant like the extreme larping aspect

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156046]

>>10156036
Oh, I didn't necessarily agree with him that it's solely a /pol/ thing, but it's this where I agree:

>/pol/ likes Orthodoxy because it's got cool outfits, men with beards, and obscure rituals in languages they don't speak. To them it might as well be paganism, which they're also fans of.

I agree with you about /lit/ also being taken in by the imagery of Orthodoxy. It's easy to be unclear on here.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156074]

I made a list of Catholic novelists to check out. There are some on the list I'm already familiar with which I'll mark with a star (I originally compiled this list just to see how many Catholic novelists there are). Anyone else care to add more novelists? Strictly speaking, I only want writers who were Catholic and wrote primarily novels.

American
F. Scott Fitzgerald*
Ernest Hemingway*
Jack Kerouac*
Frank McCourt
Malachy McCourt
Flannery O'Connor*
Walker Percy
George Santayana
John Kennedy Toole
Gene Wolfe

English
Anthony Burgess*
G. K. Chesterton
Graham Greene*
J. R. R. Tolkien*
Evelyn Waugh* (actually seen the 80's TV series with Jeremy Irons but have not read Brideshead)

French
Honoré de Balzac
Jules Barbey d'Aurevilly
Georges Bernanos
Leon Bloy
Joris-Karl Huysmans*
François Mauriac
Jean Raspail

German
Heinrich Böll
Alfred Döblin
Erich Maria Remarque

Irish
James Joyce*
Flann O'Brien

Italian
Alessandro Manzoni

Japanese
Shusaku Endo

Spanish
Miguel de Cervantes*
Miguel de Unamuno

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156080]

>>10156074
Just realized the McCourt brothers primarily wrote memoirs, so please ignore them.

[Anonymous No.10156102]

>>10156046
Okay, yeah I agree with you then. I think its an aesthetic thing, most of the people that larp for Orthodoxy also get behind Latin mass and there are lots of Catholic threads on /pol/ for that reason (frequently with Young Pope imagery). Catholicism can frequently be a meme too, especially a lot of the fans of "tradcat" I'd say

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156125]

>>10156102
There's definitely a lot of shitposting and memes about traditional Christian groups, but all that aside, there's nothing inherently wrong about Tridentine Masses or singing Koine Greek at Byzantine Catholic churches. Nonetheless, I find the DEUS VULT stuff pretty cringey.

[New Sun No.10156264]

>>10156125
Deus Vult was good when it was just a joke, but then you had people yelling "RECONQUISTA!" and shit got cringy real quick.

[Anonymous No.10156335]

>>10156102
As annoying as the LARPing is, though, it will all have been worthwhile if even one soul is saved.

[Anonymous No.10156346]

Why do you guys think more people are leaving Catholicism than the other faiths? Is there something that can be done about it?

[Lapsus No.10156367]

>>10156346
Heal the schism.

[Anonymous No.10156380]

>>10156346
Toss V2.

[Anonymous No.10156415]

>>10156380
Vatican II fucking owns. leave this thread.

[Anonymous No.10156424]

>>10156346

One reason is liberalization. According to Rodney Stark the less rigid a church becomes the less likely they are to hold onto followers and this is consistently observed in any sort of church or religion. Another factor is that Catholicism in most countries are monopoly religions or at least have laws that give them preferential treatment. This leads to a lazy clergy, liberalization, and eventually a declining attendance. According to Rodney Stark this one of the main reasons why Europe has never had high church attendance all throughout history.

Up until fairly recently Brazil was mostly Catholic but not really. They had a monopoly religion but the country was opened up to Protestants and they initially made a lot of gains. This may seem like a bad thing on the surface but it actually woke up the Catholic Church there, and while technically the Catholic population is declining, Church attendance has gone up. This because the Church is only losing Catholics who weren't truly Catholic to begin with. The Church is now actively evangelizing and reaching out to people they never would have when they had a monopoly.

[Anonymous No.10156429]

>>10156415
Leave this life, modernist.

[Anonymous No.10156441]

>>10156429
Vatican 2 is fine as long as it is interpreted in a way that is consistent within the entire Tradition of the Church.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156458]

>>10154807
>Tibetan five element bracelet
Never heard of such things. Sounds new age-y but do you have any pictures?

I feel you on feeling ostentatious, however. I had a similar situation with a five-decade rosary I had. Eventually gave it away as a gift to a good friend. Not sure how you display yourself fashion-wise but I hope you can come into something that serves you well.

>>10155463
>This thread is laughable. Move along.
>thread still continues on

Too bad.

>>10154786
>>10154786
>Excuse my shitty english, but why are you Christian?
I find it correct.

>There's islam, hinduism, judaism, deism, pagan religions (not to mention pantheism, deism and the like) and most believers follow their religion simply because of the circumstances that they were born in.

Any citations for this? Just curious.

>There's so many answers that we try to create, what makes you believe that you were lucky enough to believe the right doctrine?

My research.

>It just doesn't sit right with me, that God would create this stupid roulette which determines people's beliefs and damns them from the beggining.

Well I and my faith would say you misunderstand the situation.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156472]

>>10155537
The improvement and virtue of the person comes from a life of self-giving. Love and charity expressed in self-sacrifice to all things(willing the good of the other without self-interest). Self-interest and appeasement of the will leads you to be slave to your desires. The search to fulfill desires - whether to want or to escape things - is insatiable and leads to greater and greater sensitivity in pursuing it. Only through dedicating ourselves to love do we come into rational control of our desires and thus master ourselves and leave the world a better place in the process.

Do not give up hope at failures nor attempt to change all at once as this is truly difficult. However it is a battle you are always winning, provided you continue to try.

If there is anything I can do to expand or assist you with this, please tell me so I may assist.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156501]

>>10156424
Good post.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156522]

>>10156346
It's probably just young white Catholics such as myself who are leaving, with the exception of uneducated Hispanics who are known to join Pentecostal churches. I presume most of the "unaffiliated" gains are young white Catholics, although there could be some liberal Catholics who are joining one of the gay marriage feminist churches. Personally, it's hard for me to imagine a Catholic going evangelical.

Personally I don't know how we could convince people to return. My own decision to come home was kindled by a detached curiosity about Biblical literature that turned into sincere reverence of the Word. Stuff like that, however, isn't what brings normies to religion because most people aren't interested in reading the Bible twice a day. In the Middle Ages, our golden age, obviously nobody but priests and the well-educated could read scripture, not to mention how expensive books were. Despite that, plenty of illiterates were zealous Christians and had greater zeal than many clergy.

On the other hand, I believe we could possibly convince other Christians and people of other creeds to join through convincing arguments based on politics, interpretation of scripture, and our tradition and status as the Church established by Christ. But in order to do that, we need to learn about what makes them tick. For example, part of the reason why I am learning about classics from Anglican writers is because I think I could reason well enough to convince them to cross the Tiber. If one wanted to convert Muslims, on the other hand, then one should learn Arabic and study the Quran to provide sound arguments against them.

[Anonymous No.10156525]

>>10156346
The greatest driving force for atheism always has been and always will be unhealthy paternal relationships.

[Anonymous No.10156544]

>>10156522
>Personally I don't know how we could convince people to return.

If the church would confront the grammar of self-hatred taught to whites, and empower again the family with some level of sovereignty, then this would in my opinion be very helpful in keeping and making followers. I don't mean to be to political, but the church is acting like a glorified politically correct NGO right now.

[Anonymous No.10156552]

>>10156522
We could also have a major miracle, like Europe and South America and Asia have had.

I wonder why Mary hasn't deigned to visit the United States, and it makes me wonder, subsequently, if we're not just kind of a damned nation. We were built by Protestants, atheists, and deists, and we explicitly reject the Truth of the Church. Maybe the United States just doesn't enjoy God's favor, and is doomed to destruction as a result.

[Lapsus No.10156557]

>>10156458
>Never heard of such things
https://www.wisdomcompassion.org/single-post/2016/06/14/Spiritual-Blessings-with-5-Color-Vajra-Rope

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156643]

>>10156544
>If the church would confront the grammar of self-hatred taught to whites, and empower again the family with some level of sovereignty, then this would in my opinion be very helpful in keeping and making followers.

What's ironic is that I've observed Asian and African Catholics are quite conservative and I don't think they would have any problem with their fellow Catholics elsewhere having the same values. Only in Europe and the Americas is the church so self-hating. I think this is the natural result of the babyboomers reaching seniority within the church.

>>10156552
>built by Protestants, atheists, and deists
Don't be so dismissive of the founding fathers and our constitution. Our government has its origins in the Magna Carta of King John's Catholic England and common law in the Catholic Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. Our founding fathers were definitely not atheists and many were Anglicans, which is the most Catholic of all the Protestant sects. You have to bear in mind that the heresies of Protestants back then were relatively mild compared to how they are today.

>"Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, religion and morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great pillars of human happiness, these firmest props of the duties of men and citizens. The mere politician, equally with the pious man, ought to respect and to cherish them."

That comes from Washington's farewell address of 1796. His views were shared by his peers.

We have the most durable constitution in the world; it's not a coincidence that our patron is Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception. While it's unlikely we'll ever have a Saint for a President, we've certainly improved the lives of the poor and defended the powerless on plenty of occasions throughout history. Honestly, I think Our Lady has guided and will continue to guide us.

[Anonymous No.10156680]

The Catholic Church is dead, the only people who are even remotely Catholic are sedevacantists and most sedevacantists are either batshit insane pseudo-terrorists or LARPers.

The sitting Pope clearly isn't a Catholic and the overarching church is a pedophile infested Novus Ordo judaism emporium.

I study my bible, say some prayers during the local Tridentine Mass, pray my Rosary. But I do not see how the world will recover.

[Anonymous No.10156691]

>>10156552
What about the Battle of New Orleans?

[Anonymous No.10156696]

>>10156074
>Jack Kerouac
Yeah, The Dharma Bums is clearly a great Catholic novel

[Anonymous No.10156706]

>>10156680
Keep it alive with children. And by being a light of true christianity and catholic brotherhood.

[Anonymous No.10156714]

>>10156680
Christ prevails against all odds. The Church will also. Have faith.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156723]

>>10156691
Never heard about this before! I'll look it up.

>>10156696
I did not ask if they had novels with overtly Catholic themes. Neither Hemingway nor Fitzgerald wrote any Catholic novels.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10156730]

>>10156706
>Keep it alive with children.
This. The lady and I plan on raising a large brood. Also be sure to give your children as many middle names as possible as a good Catholic does.

[Anonymous No.10156732]

>>10156680
>Hurr why won't the pope call crusade #notmypope
>THE POPE IS ACTING LIKE A CHRISTIAN THE CHURCH IS DEAD
Fuck off
What ever happened to pope infallibility, you hypocrite

[Anonymous No.10156787]

>>10155599
It doesn't. It's the conduct people who don't understand the system at all expect.

[Anonymous No.10156799]

>>10156335
well then it's worthwhile. I am going through RCIA right now, and I never would have if it wasn't for a mix of /pol/ and /lit/

[Anonymous No.10156819]

>>10155100
God be with you, Cardinal Sarah.

[Anonymous No.10156820]

>>10155115
racism is a modernist heresy, anon

[Anonymous No.10156838]

Is this worth reading? Seems like a very entry level book on Christian theology. Or should I read Confessions by Augustus first?

[Anonymous No.10156846]

>>10156838
>Is this worth reading?
Only if you are younger than 18
>Seems like a very entry level book on Christian theology.
The idea of 'mere Christianity' and a general introduction into it is misleading, you'd really have to be a lot more specific.
>Or should I read Confessions by Augustus first?
Yes, Augustine is a lot better.

[Anonymous No.10156849]

>>10156732
Please, google what papal infallibility is.

[Anonymous No.10156853]

>all these brainwashed catholics and /pol/ larpers

/lit/ is a slow board.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156864]

>>10156838
You should read neither first. Mere Christianity is entry level but not very education and tends to focus a lot on wit rather than sound logic. Confessions, on the flip side, is meant to be a fairly introductory text and is very sound but it is so distant from us in style that it is hard for new people to read. Try this:

>exchange Confessions by St. Augustine with The Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton
>exchange Mere Christianity for one of Feser's books for an introduction to theology. If you want to learn, try his Scholastic Metaphysics: A Contemporary Introduction. If you want a response/refutation of New Atheism, try his The Last Superstition.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156866]

>>10156853
Tell us when you have something besides rhetoric.

[Anonymous No.10156869]

>>10156866
I might bother with a rational argument when you lot surrender the nonsense rules and superstitions. You're worse than Orthodox Jews.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10156874]

>>10156869
>actually responded back with just more rhetoric

[Anonymous No.10156889]

>>10156846
>>10156864
Thanks for the recommendations. I'm currently reading Rene Guenon and have been fascinated with metaphysics. I want to soak up as much information as I can.

[Anonymous No.10156898]

Thoughts on David Bentley Hart's translation of the New Testament? I ordered it, heard it's pretty good. "Unsettling" is a common word used by all reviews of it I've seen.

[Anonymous No.10156902]

>>10156898
also, are Orthodox allowed on here? I don't see any other Christian generals.

[Anonymous No.10156926]

>>10156898
Is it approved by the Church? If not, avoid it. I'm not a fan of DBH in general because he's a heretic (universal salvation) and a divine personalist.

[Anonymous No.10156947]

>>10156074
J.F. Powers is published by NYRB, /lit/'s favorite publisher.

[Anonymous No.10157156]

>>10156838
I've heard others say this but I get the impression after reading C.S. Lewis that he was an atheist who desperately wanted to believe, hence he relies on witticism rather than sound logical arguments as >>10156864 mentions.

[Anonymous No.10157225]

>>10156458
>Well I and my faith would say you misunderstand the situation.
Why? How many Asians, Arabs, Native Americans did actually convert? A lot of them died before the missionaries could even arrive into their countries and start proselytizing, never having the chance to hear the word of God, never accepting jesus into their hearts. Some of your fellow christians would be considered heretic as well for following the different dogma than yours. Mind telling me why is this ok?

[Anonymous No.10157266]

>>10152991
Saint Kateri Tekawitha

[Anonymous No.10157294]

;_;

[Anonymous No.10157308]

>>10157294
He has earned himself a special place in Heaven

[Anonymous No.10157332]

>>10157294

[Anonymous No.10157336]

>>10156458
>My research.
go on

[Anonymous No.10157616]

The Trinity isn't Biblical.

John 14:28
You heard me say to you, ‘I am going away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

Anyone who tries to justify the trinity off of some mumbo jumbo theory is a heretic. Reading the Bible gives no impression of a "trinity". It simply speaks about God (the most high) and his perfect son Jesus.

[Anonymous No.10157719]

>>10157616
>wtf I hate the trinity now

[Anonymous No.10157732]

>>10157616
Wrong

[Anonymous No.10157752]

>>10157616
> Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58. As clear and obvious as can be.

(Saying this is what got Christ killed.)

Please don't ever post on Biblical matters again, protestocuck.

[Anonymous No.10157766]

>>10157752
He isn't protestant. Protestants all accept the Trinity. He isn't Christian.

[Anonymous No.10157767]

Catholics are the biggest hypocrites, and one of the reasons is the concept of confession. Do whatever you want but just make sure you confess, then you have a clear conscious and are going to heaven.

The trinity is essentially polytheistic, regardless of what mental gymnastics Catholics will use to say otherwise. Catholics worship idols (e.g.: relics of saints); they'll say it isn't worship, but it clearly is.

[Anonymous No.10157782]

>>10145867
>ctrl+f
>divine comedy
>0 results
Wat? I just ordered it the other day and none of you plebs have read it?

[Anonymous No.10157812]

Is chastity necessary?

[Anonymous No.10157831]

>>10157752
>>10157766
I am Christian, a true Christian. One who doesn't worship Jesus, but worship's his Father as he wanted us to.

Jesus was God's first creation.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

You are brainwashed, think and read for yourself.

[Anonymous No.10157835]

>>10155749
>Catholicism provides community support and moral guidance

Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular is indistinguishable from Positivism-Materialism-Darwinism-Capitalism.

[Anonymous No.10157841]

>>10157835
This is very bad bait

[Anonymous No.10157848]

>>10157812
Here is an easy answer.

1 Corinthians 7:7-11 (Paul)

"I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.

To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is good for them to remain single, as I am.

But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

To the married I give this charge (not I, but the Lord): the wife should not separate from her husband

(but if she does, she should remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband), and the husband should not divorce his wife."

Sex outside of marriage is very wrong.

[Anonymous No.10157872]

>>10157841

>empiricism through scripturalism
>ontological materialism identical to atheist ontological materialism sans meaningless unfalsifiable unverifiable numbers
>god functionally identical to a vacuous cosmos
>making it depends on a self-sustaining exchange of arbitrary symbols of value

[Anonymous No.10157928]

>mfw this thread

[Anonymous No.10157949]

>>10156680
You're just a newbie man. Grow in charity faith and hope and step out of your basement and go to a decent church nearby

[Anonymous No.10157984]

>>10157848
As i thought. Cs lewis' explanation of Christian morality on sex and marriage has helped

[Anonymous No.10157995]

>>10157848
Masturbation is one that i find difficult to discuss in church. To what extent is it condoned? I do not watch porn or fantasise at this point. Its purely biological at this point

[Anonymous No.10158031]

>>10157995
Matthew 5:27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lustful intent has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

So basically, masturbation is wrong because you will either be thinking about a woman in a lustful way or watching pornography. This one is very hard to follow. How far you take it is for you to decide.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158396]

>>10157294
Always seemed like a very good guy and a genius.

>>10157336
I found Divine Conservation a sound start to understanding theism, which opened the door to the Classical Theist view of God.
In terms of general morality, Naturalism has itself trapped in regards to its rejection of Final Causality. While I can't rightfully say how we make it out of this one, the acceptance of Final Causality in the most basic sense seems clear. However from it we fill in the key missing element to enable classical Natural Law to be legitimate. This leads to full support of Catholic morality in their own terms. From there I find the historic claims of revelation to not simply be coincidence that they align with reality but be true revelation and find there to be legitimacy to the claim of the Catholic Church's apostolic authority.

Cheers.

>>10157767
>Do whatever you want but just make sure you confess, then you have a clear conscious and are going to heaven.

Confession requires being actually contrite. Not simple saying what you did or saying sorry.

>The trinity is essentially polytheistic
It speaks about relationships within a single concept so that would not be polytheistic at all. A second god simply never comes up.

>>10157812
Yes, and it is best for you.

>>10157835
>this joker

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158443]

>>10157225
As Paul has said, God's Law is written on our hearts. It is innate to us and so virtue is innate to us without explicit knowledge of God. This is why the early church has a history of declaring "Virtuous Pagans", which is the same concept.

And yes, there are many heretics in the world. However I do not find they meet the full requirements of Mortal Sin as confusion surrounds this all.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158446]

>>10157928
>ALL these people coming to just use rhetoric rather than arguments

[Anonymous No.10158488]

>>10158446
> someone of an abrahamic faith complained about other people using rhetoric instead of arguments near me

[Anonymous No.10158536]

>>10158396
>this joker

See: >>10157872

The narrative of salvation is identical to "survival of the fittest".

[Anonymous No.10158541]

>>10158488
>tfw atheistic postmodernism leads to Catholicism because the only way to escape sophism and rhetoric is the Logos

[Anonymous No.10158614]

>>10158396
>>10158536

In the attempt to mitigate ultimate terror in the face of ceaseless catastrophe, stories about the Christian God and the Atheist Cosmos are indistinguishable from each other. You could read for hours not knowing which is which were it not for names and jargon.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158622]

>>10158488
>still using rhetoric rather than arguments
There's no reason for this

>>10158536
How is it similar at all?
One is saying we are transformed through grace that we freely accept and the other is natural selection.

>empiricism through structuralism
You'll have to give evidence of the Catholics doing this and that it is even conceptually possible. Empiricism relies on sense experience which scripture and it's adherence is not.

The two next claims are trying to say that medieval theism is the same as Naturalism or at least that spirits don't exist in Catholic worldview. Which doesn't make sense given the support of it down the ages in the west from the fall of the Roman empire to the reformation is exclusively Catholic.

The fourth point I don't even understand. You'll have to explain.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158669]

>>10158614
That just seems vague. I'm not even sure what you're saying.

[Anonymous No.10158679]

>>10158622

Natural Selection implies some make it and some don't - a Christian tenet. Empiricism implies that Phenomena, like written text, is the locus of Truth - a Christian tenet. This is part of the larger Positivist-Materialist Ontology that Christianity is based on, that Christianity IS. The Phenomenal world is seen as Divine Creation and thus essential to any and all Epistemology, its rejection through Idealist thinking, for example, is taboo is Christianity; hence emergent bottom-up world models being a Christian tenet, or essentially being Christianity itself. Again, their distinction is only a verbal formality. Their History is not intertwined, it's one and the same.

Notice how oblivious you are to my forth point being analogous to my comment about survival of the fittest in my second reply.

[Anonymous No.10158687]

>>10158669

I know.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158759]

>>10158679
>Natural Selection implies some make it and some don't - a Christian tenet


That some get the goal and some don't get the goal is present in most things in reality. You're saying they're identical because they match in this aspect despite the goal being entirely different and all surrounding concepts being wrong. That's ridiculous.

Empiricism doesn't imply that phenomena is the source of truth but rather sense experience is, which reading text isn't.

Since the ontological view of Catholicism extends from metaphysics then it's specifically not positivist and because they support spirits, God, and the like they cannot be materialist. They are specifically contrary to it.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158763]

>>10158687

[Lapsus No.10158772]

>>10158679
Natural selection is sexual selection. You can be saved without children and unsaved with children. Also, Christianity has a lot of idealistic philosophers. Nothing taboo about it. Although, of course, it is opposed to anti-materialist gnostic hatred of creation it is not anti-idealist.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10158805]

>>10157835
/leftypol/ has found this thread! Rare!

[Anonymous No.10158808]

>>10158759
>>10158763
>>10158772

What is thinking even like for you? It seems like an Aesthetic game based on memorizing and repeating sound clusters.

[Lapsus No.10158827]

>>10158808
I’m a p-zombie

[Anonymous No.10158846]

>>10158808
Have you ever considered making a YouTube channel? You might find a better audience there, especially if you are a girl.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10158928]

>>10158808
Having trouble reading? I can break it down for you if it would help you understand what we are saying.

>What is thinking even like for you?
I try not to think about it.

[Anonymous No.10158988]

>>10158928

Reading text not being part of sense experience is where I tapped out.

RIP

[New Sun No.10159141]

>>10157835
That's a lot of words anon.

[Lapsus No.10159149]

>>10159141
A veritable word-salad one might say.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10159281]

>>10158988
I probably poorly worded myself. Reading a text gives us the sense experience of reading the text. What is claimed in the text and our view of it isn't from sense experience. Hence me saying "empiricism through scripturalism" makes no sense even conceptually.

[Lapsus No.10159304]

>>10159281
Not to mention authority arrives from apostolic succession not simply scripture.

[Anonymous No.10159380]

>>10158446
>>10158622
I think you missed the point this poster >>10158488 was making. There can be no argument with you, because you do not follow the rules of argument. You do not accept evidence, because you have already accepted dogma as truth. I say again: there can be no argument with you. Only a passing revulsion.

>"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

Pic related it's you.

[Anonymous No.10159397]

>>10159380
>"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence

Should I dismiss your assertion that assertions without evidence should be dismissed without evidence since you didn't provide evidence to support that assertion?

[Anonymous No.10159413]

>>10159397
Bet you think you're very clever anon.

>Should I dismiss your assertion
No, it is not an assertion. It is an axiom. It is self-evident and cannot be dismissed.

[Anonymous No.10159438]

>>10159413

In what way is it self evident? The assertion that assertions without evidence should be dismissed without evidence doesn't support itself. I could even give an example to the contrary, suppose somebody comes up to you and tells you there's a fast moving but forest fire on the other side of the hill that's going to engulf the entire area and kill you unless you flee right now. There's no evidence for this claim but if you value your safety you wouldn't immediately dismiss it, so not all assertions made without evidence should be dismissed without evidence.

[Anonymous No.10159449]

>>10159438
Still think you're clever huh?

Your example is flawed. The forest fire claim can be dismissed without evidence.

Similarly, and much like an imaginary forest fire, dismissing the superstition and evil of the Church in Rome will do me no harm.

[Anonymous No.10159456]

>>10159449

What are you changing the subject for? Explain to me how your claim that all assertions without evidence should be dismissed without evidence is self evident.

[Anonymous No.10159557]

>>10159456
I didn't say should. The axiom say 'can be'. L2read reeroo.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10159578]

>>10159380
>>10159413
>>10159449
>>10159557
Another hairsplitter. No use arguing with them.

[Anonymous No.10159588]

>>10159578
I believe in Christ's message and his example, and the prescription to imitatio dei. I also believe the Church has absolutely bollocksed it up. Completely. Just look at the exclusion and hate in this thread.

[Anonymous No.10159862]

>2nd degree burns on my hand
Is this what hell feels like?

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10159873]

>>10159380
>missed the point

The implication was that followers of Abraham faiths rely on rhetoric rather than arguments, not a lack of argumentation or poor arguments like you're saying. The claim of >>10158488 is obviously hypocrisy.

Now to your claim, you're speaking of the Catholic Church which unlike Evangelicals does not justify its worldview through faith. Faith comes about in terms of how to live. Even in relation to dogma, it is defensible rationally as if the Christian worldview is true and the Christian historic claims are true then the church authority is legitimate and thus the dogmas they declare are accurate. And the church has a long history of defending the Christian historic claims and worldview on rational grounds.

No matter how you slice it, you're still wrong.

>"What can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence"

There is no evidence for this rule so this comment is self-serving.

The sheer irony of an anon uncritically accepting Hitchens' self-refuting words in efforts to call us stupid.

[WOLFSHIEM !!tuOwy1ct2dy No.10159922]

>>10159413
Things axiomatic still require arguments to justify themselves as such and the claim does not support itself.

You're not going to find a way out of having to use reason.

[Anonymous No.10159928]

>>10158396
>From there I find the historic claims of revelation to not simply be coincidence that they align with reality but be true revelation
Elaborate on this

[Anonymous No.10159968]

>>10157831
>it's a JW
>telling us about being brainwashed

[Anonymous No.10160043]

>>10159968
JW's are dumb but it's been recognized in academia for a long time that the trinity likely isn't something Jesus actually espoused.

It's a stretch to get it from the gospel of John with its uniquely high christology, and even then Jesus' sayings in John are very unlikely to be historical, passing none of the various criteria of authenticity.

[Anonymous No.10160117]

>>10160043
(((academia)))

[Anonymous No.10160162]

>>10160117
>I'll just take what you said and put it in le meme parentheses, that'll show him

[Anonymous No.10160198]

>>10158396
Thank you based incel

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10160246]

>>10159873
I was just wondering the other day if there are any good Polish Catholic writers to read because I haven't read any. Great quote. I read something similar from Graham Greene once where he said the possibility of eternal sentience after death more disturbing than eternal nothingness. Thanks again based World Series fixer.

>>10160043
>it's been recognized in academia for a long time that the trinity likely isn't something Jesus actually espoused.
>[citation needed]

Bear in mind "academia" is such a broad umbrella that it's virtually meaningless to throw around. Did you read that by some Muslim chap at the University of Indonesia? By an atheist Jew at U. Penn? By a renegade, excommunicated Jesuit? You're just using """"academia""""" as a boogeyman. Without stating your sources, we have no obligation to take what you say seriously.

Non-trinitarian forms of Christianity are arguably not even Christian, such as the Mormons. I'll be very hard-pressed to believe anyone can reasonably back such a claim that Jesus said something that, within its proper context, is contrary to the trinity.

[Anonymous No.10160272]

>>10160246
A Yale professor of religion said the trinity is not found in the Bible.

[Anonymous No.10160311]

>>10160246

There's Raymond Brown, who was a Catholic Priest himself.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raymond_E._Brown#New_Testament_Christology

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10160329]

>>10160272
>A Yale professor of religion said the trinity is not found in the Bible.
[citation needed]

You're going to have do a lot more than say, "my argument is correct because some guy said so." At least provide his name and the title of a book or article where he makes this claim. Arguments and debates are not won by rhetorical flourishes and saving your trump cards as you've learned from youtube. To make a good, convincing argument, you show all your cards at the beginning. If you don't, chances are you're a fraud and no one will be interested in what you have to say.

[Anonymous No.10160338]

>>10160329
I'm not claiming it's correct, and I just don't care enough to actually find it again.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10160345]

>>10160311
>It was seen that God had revealed so much of Himself in Jesus that God had to be able to include both Father and Son."

He is literally describing how the doctrine of the trinity came about. It's a logical conclusion based on the evidence Christ gives. He wasn't merely the greatest snake charmer this side of Galilee, Billy Bob. He is God as part of the Holy Trinity with the Holy Spirit. Next paragraph.

Thirty years later, Brown revisited the issue in an introductory text for the general public, writing that in "three reasonably clear instances in the NT (Hebrews 1:8-9, John 1:1, 20:28) and in five instances that have probability, Jesus is called God," a usage Brown regarded as a natural development of early references to Jesus as "Lord".

Woah, Jesus is called God in the Bible. Who would have thought?

[Anonymous No.10160406]

>>10148758
>Thirty years from now we're going to be back in the pre-Vatican 2 days, with ad orientem Masses and excommunications. It's going to be great.
Problem is that the clergy has been almost overrun with modernist heretics and faggots. I've read some awful things about the seminaries in Ireland and the US practically locking hard-core traditionalists out.

Fixing the Catholic church requires massive turnover, and potentially outside intervention imo.

[Anonymous No.10160434]

>>10160406
>Catholic church requires massive turnover, and potentially outside intervention imo.
So, a reformation?

[Anonymous No.10160437]

>>10160345
>He is literally describing how the doctrine of the trinity came about. It's a logical conclusion based on the evidence Christ gives
That's how the church came to understand it, but not necessarily what Jesus actually taught.

>Woah, Jesus is called God in the Bible. Who would have thought?
Jesus is called God, not says he is, important difference. And these few examples you can find of Jesus being called God are not particularly good ones, coming late in the development of the New Testament.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10160470]

>>10160437
"Father, into your hands, I commend my spirit," said the Son of God.

[Anonymous No.10160491]

>>10160434
Hopefully it'll go better than the last time. I'm unironically convinced that it has to happen though, the church is very sick.

[S. Donne !!Cgg+piu072t No.10160525]

>>10160437
Christ recognizes several times that God is his father. Christ also shows that he is divine by means of his supernatural powers. If the Father and the Son are not united via the trinity, then by your argument Christianity is no different from other pagan cults except that there are only two supreme gods, a rather limited pantheon for a pagan religion. (Please don't tell me you've been hiding a "I'm a Gnostic" card up your sleeve this whole time.)

>coming late in the development of the New Testament.
So do you also dismiss all of St. Paul's writings because he never actually met Christ? It seems to me that you do a lot of cherrypicking to suit your contrarian views.

>>10160491
>the church is very sick
I know what you mean, brother. Lots of old ladies have been coughing at church on Sunday! Flu season's been pretty terrible. I've already been snubbed by these sage churchgoers a few times while offering the sign of peace. Pity!