/lit/ - Literature

>>9507689
Then why do you still hate them?

Read hayek

>>9507699
because the only commies I know IRL are FARC, ELN, cuba and venezuela.

nice le false flag meme thread

>politics
>economics
>materialism
>consumerism

Experience is the best argument against communism. Not surprising that Marx himself did almost nothing but write the entirety of his adult life and as such had very little experience.

Go to /pol/ and learn this shit. Redpill yourself.

>>9507728
what does this redd!t meme means?

>>9507741
I already say I hate commies.

Here's one: Marx's labor theory is either obviously wrong, or so tortured as to be useless.

>>9507740
He traveled all over Europe too... on his father's dime, but still!

OP, communism is retarded. It wouldn't matter if you had a coherent argument against it because it would just get shouted down regardless.

>>9507754
You obviously haven't spent long on /pol/ then. Countless great arguments are brought up everyday.

For one
>why would anyone work more than the bare minimum if everyone only gets what they require? There's no motivation to work hard.

>>9507758
he's not entirely wrong, the labor theory of value isn't correct as a way to understand price, but the idea that all wealth comes from labor is absolutely true...the more capital intensive something is, the lower the margins, profit comes from the human workers, all these shrill people going on about robots needs to read some marxist thought on the source of wealth as labor...it doesn't really fit into orthodox economic theory, and trying to force it doesn't work, but it's also an important insight that people overlook at their own peril

>>9507764
superficial travelings account to very little. Julius Caesar was great not because he briefly touched every corner of the known world but because he palpably controlled it.

>>9507777
>working hard
you sure have a tiny almond

>>9507793
well someone has to work, we can't all be neets

>>9507764
Wow, Europe. An area of a few US states. So well travelled. Marx is a fucking idiot. He is going to destroy the fucking world. At least we have based Trump to withhold the Communists for now and Gen Z is right-wing as fuck.

>>9507780
>but the idea that all wealth comes from labor is absolutely true
This is trivial, though.

>all these shrill people going on about robots needs to read some marxist thought on the source of wealth as labor
Why?

>>9507777
>working hard

What a waste of quads

>>9507800
>based
i know this is bait, but still
>>>/reddit

>>9507780
the ironic thing about Marx's ideas, as predicated on the Labor Theory, is that while Communism claims to have the best interests of the laborers themselves in mind, it also inherently exists to perpetuate the work of the laborer. Meanwhile Capitalism, for all its ills, strives asymptotically to reduce the labor value of all products to 0, or in other words reduce the impact of the generation of products on the laborers who make them to 0, ultimately freeing the laborer from any economic shackles.

>>9507801
because they say shit like "the people who own all the robots are going to be so rich and everyone else will be poor!" but not really, owning robots is basically like owning a really capital intensive factory, which if you notice, isn't really that profitable, otherwise they would still be in the united states and not asia, why put your factory in asia and waste resources shipping it across the ocean if 90% of the work is done by machines/robots? because the only way to get profit is from the people working there, so you have to go where the labor is cheapest. so i'm just saying you can see the "technocrats with armies of robots will live lavish life while everyone starves" is just not going to be a thing, calm the fuck down

>>9507777
I'm a capitalist and you're retarded

>>9507818
But (to use your analogy) right now technocrats with factories live lavish lives while loads of Southeast Asian people starve. What would change that dynamic?

>>9507689
How about it is highly susceptible to corruption?

>>9507825
the cost of robots also come cheaper.

just think of everyone having good quality 3D printers at very cheap cost (like today printing is).

>>9507817
the fact that i like considering the implications of the idea that wealth comes from labor doesn't mean i endorse communism, capitalism is clearly superior to a command economy, both on a basic material level, and also as far as human freedom and self-actualization is concerned

>>9507741
>/pol/
>learning anything but new shitposting vocabulary

>>9507818
Automation will greatly decrease the need for manual labor typically provided by people towards the left end of the intelligence distribution. How are they going to earn money?

>>9507793
>>9507804
>>9507819
Tell me why anyone would work harder than average if "to each according to his need" is implemented. Society stagnates because there's no benefit to working hard or innovating.

>they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work
A famous Soviet joke.

>>9507825
>What would change that dynamic?
the fact that robots aren't humans (fuck off transhumanists/accelerationists), meaning their exploitation could be theoretically infinite which would make initial investment costs borderline 0% and finally produce the post-scarcity that everyone seems so keen to achieve, at least in terms of economic value (the issue of dispersing property is never going to be resolved so easily without advanced taxation which leads to physical conflict)

>>9507848
>somehow the cost of manufacturing the robots also don't come down every year
>everyone forgets that

>>9507825
the point is the southeast asian people are working in the factories, they aren't' factories with nothing but robots, or else they would just build them in texas...also, some of those asian factories actually pay competitive wages for the region, i'd hardly call it starving, considering the other options are standing a hunched over in a rice paddy for 12 hours a day doing subsistence agriculture

>>9507845
>How are they going to earn money?
>durr muh Player Piano
As the economic impact of automation sets in, so too will the economy shift

>>9507845
Git gud or get left behind. This is why you should take STEM.

>>9507857
>robots get cheaper every year
but that's why there's no profit in owning a robot army...50 years ago owning a computer with the power equivalent to an iphone would give you a competitive advantage in some industries, now the cost of computing power is trivial, the competitive advantage comes from having the top researchers in the field doing work for you, so now that everyone has a super computer in their pocket, human labor is more important than every as the big tech companies try to poach the most productive phds from each other

>>9507861
this, people complain about factory slave but doesn't realize that for getting such jobs workers need to work free a couple of months because of how hard is to get them.

there's already 1.5 billion people that are working for 1-2 dollars a day, next to the 2 billion working for 10 dollars a day.

>but trump can make those jobs go back

>>9507857
Even if it doesn't and each robot or automation system costs some ridiculous amount to produce, the actual Return on Investment of each would be so huge as to render margins of profit to be almost not worth keeping track of

>>9507883
the ROI has been going down retard.

>>9507879
>human labor is more important than every as the big tech companies try to poach the most productive phds from each other
You significantly misunderstand the atmosphere of tech companies. They aren't immune to outsourcing and the resulting brain drain - Google and other similar companies hire huge numbers of Indians and other decently educated individuals from developing nations because when reduced to their simplest components, everything can be taught by Rhote. Hell, Google created its own babby's first programming language explicitly for this task.

The truth is, actually educated people with minds strong enough to be affected by Brain Drain economics should be entrepreneurs, they should be the ones building or in some way contributing to the system of automation and continual technological advancement that would otherwise swallow up their jobs. The failure of the University system throughout the West has severely hindered this seemingly obvious development.

>>9507846
I'm a manufacturing major. I do the work ten soviets did in one hundred hours in a week while reading, drinking coffee, and listening to music. Times have changed, most "work" is babysitting automated systems. there is no "work harder", just smarter. We're at a point technologically that those old cliches are expired

>>9507896
Because the systems we have in place now don't have the possibility for near-infinite exploitation, they're too dependent on maintenance from skilled and unskilled laborers

>>9507689
Read more

>>9507908
>a single automatization robot with machine learning systems now cost 30k and the price is going down
>3D printers now cost 600USD

>>9507919
>>a single automatization robot with machine learning systems now cost 30k and the price is going down
>>3D printers now cost 600USD

>thinking either of these systems have the capability of true near-endless automation

>>9507930
>small local producers in rural africa need to compete with big multinationals

>>9507689
It depends on what you're reading. Communism is flawed both at a theoretical and practical level.

However, there are innumerable legitimate criticisms one can make of capitalism. It's just that they never get you anywhere, because all the alternatives capitalism are worse.

It's like how democracy is flawed, but what better option is there?

It's easiest to understand why capitalism works by observing other forms of economic organization and how they fail on account of lacking certain features of capitalist systems (price information, currency, decentralized decision making, maximum use of knowledge in society, instant response to changes in supply and demand, spontaneity, incentives).

>>9507689
Hate is bad for you, Anon

>>9507689
>hate commies
okay but why

>>9507972
FARC, ELN, cuba and venezuela.

>>9507789
>>9507800
Did I really not manage to slather enough sarcasm on my post? Or are you both retarded /pol/sters?

>>9507982
The right wing paramilitaries of colombia are definitely more awful than either FARC or ELN. Plus cuba and venezuela are both governments that have been undermined by US intervention

>>9508045
I'm colombian retard.

the paramilitary only killed dumb peasants who were guerrilleros.

>>9507780
>he's not entirely wrong
Except he is
A cook could spend months crafting the perfect apple pie, it would still be just a pie. Value has absolutely nothing to do with the work you put in; whatever correlation exists is incidental

>>9507689
read marx

>Green text
>tfw
>frog pic
>????
>MEME

>>9508045
>Plus cuba and venezuela are both governments that have been undermined by US intervention
Nice meme. Next you're going to tell me the brazilian Worker's Party isn't actually corrupt

>another shitty politics thread on the first page
can you guys please stop? I don't come to your board and shit up the page index, nor do I come to your subreddit and post quality content. So why do you have to do this to me

>>9507845

Even smart people today are doing useless jobs. All those people working in HR departments? If they all quit the world would keep going on as before.

>>9508123
Books and reading are rage-inducing bluepill shit.

>>9508145
Philistinism is not a virtue, faggot.

Apart from, you know, the 100% failure rate of communism when it is a system of government. Marxism has some good ideas, but communism doesn't work.

What I never get about modern communists is why, after the failures, do they still see it as a good system as it is? Most people would adapt the system and adopt new ideas after old ones don't work - like with every other system.

>>9507846
if everybody was getting everything they needed, then society has reached endgame. there's no need to advance beyond that point. If everybody has every need and reasonable desire fulfilled, what's the POINT in "progressing" further? There's nothing left to attain.

>>9508330
maybe actually look into modern communism beyond assuming that all of us just want to retry the USSR with no changes

>>9507846
tell me one reason why anyone would work hard in capitalism beyond what was necessary for the job as they're paid the same regardless.

Go.

>>9508374
but what about commision

>>9507689
>He hasn't read Stirner.

OP has at least one of the traits necessary to be a good thinker/learner/scholar.

>>9507689
>we have to abolish money, hierarchy and the state
>how?
>we use the state to force people into compliance
Op, this is why communism is retarded and always leads to totalitarian governments. This is all you need to know

>>9508078
Read Marx. The exchange value of a commodity is determined by the "socially necessary labor time" that goes into making the commodity. It's not socially necessary to spend a month making a pie.

>>9508452
Okay, but as you said, why would I labor more than what would be necessary for me to sustain myself, unless I was forced too...

>>9508460
>he hasn't read The German Ideology
>he hasn't read Nietzsche

>>9508503
money

>>9508509

We are born babies that havent read any books

>>9508470
>socially necessary labor time
Literally a impracticable concept.

>>9507689
>tfw I have not real argument against them
It can't compete with capitalism.

>>9508530

Why is succesfully competing (in your sense) a good thing?

>>9508536
>Why is succesfully competing (in your sense) a good thing?
Look what happened to the USSR.

>>9508550

That is not an answer to that question.

You don't even have to dip your whole toe into psychology, especially psychology concerning human motivation, to find out why communism is so dangerous and actually impossible in large groups.

>>9508575

Why do economists get the unique priveledge of describing human nature?

>>9508570
yes it is

>>9508536
Because humans are competitive creatures. I'm saying that natural instincts are inherently good and moral, but you can only shift our behavior so far before we lose our balance and topple. Competition is what drives innovation, prosperity, and most importantly, happiness. Note that once some makes enough money to maintain reasonable shelter and food, they don't get any more happy the wealthier they are. What makes them happy, momentarily, is the ACT of gaining money or power or social respect or any other way of moving up the hierarchy. In a system like capitalism where that can be reasonably sustained (as long as there is some system siphoning money from the top back to the bottom in one way or another) happiness can really be achieved

>>9508587

Im not trying to be cute. What is necessarily good about innovation and competition? One can see why GDP might rise from such phenomena, but why is a high GDP a good thing?

Why is a higher standard of living necessarily better ?

>>9508586
When did I ever say anything about economists, friendo?

>>9508597
Shit
*I'm NOT saying that natural instincts are inherently good and moral,

>>9508598
>Why is a higher standard of living necessarily better ?
I doesn't matter if it is necessarily better or good or bad. For most people, it is preferable.

>>9508597

Why is happiness important? What is happiness?

Can capitalism be argued on non utillitarian presumptions?

>>9508613

Why should we go to the market instead of jumping off a bridge?

>>9508575

What could go wrong lol?