/lit/ - Literature

I like it too, OP

>>8886563
The Jesuits are a fucking joke amongst in the know Catholics

>>8886605
Why?

>>8886605
The Jesuits are the only 'in the know' Catholics

>>8886607
In the 60s they decided to go all hippy-dippy-do-da and throw away the beautiful traditions of Catholic services in order to 'connect with the young folk'. This entailed them picking up acoustic guitars and wearing brightly coloured knitted jumpers and singing Kumbaya; basically alienating a bunch of people in the long run as well as losing all of their dignity. There were probably other orders guilty of this too. Also the radicalism of the kind you seen in Silence is divisive amongst some Catholics. Source: A close mate of mine was a Franciscan Friar for 9 years.

>>8886605
This guy is obviously either an idiot or an extremely poor troll. Pic related.

Anyway, OP, I haven't read the book yet, but I've seen good write-ups about it on /lit/ and on other boards. It's on my to-do list. I'm a recoving catholic, so I'll post in a few weeks once I've finished the book.

>>8886622
I mean, I'm sure you're far more qualified to weigh in on this topic than him, right? He has a Masters in Divinity from Oxford but some guy on 4chan knows best. Also I've been to a Chaplaincy run by the Jesuits and the Priest is the most insufferable clot ever. He'll chew your ear off about how amazing his order is and how they're the only one not to have reformed (which isn't true). He also looks like a literal homeless man. The Jesuits are all misguided fools, even if their order stems from an arguably great act (if that's the kind of stuff you believe, I'm not religious so).

>>8886618
That's not Jesuits you're describing.

As for the book, it's decent, but whole premise is on shaky theological grounds. Denial of God isn't Apostasy in Catholicism. Wasn't since the times of Peter and crowing roosters. Absolutely not in this case since Endo has forced denial in his novel. It wont make you a martyr, but it also won't make you an outcast.

>>8886637
Well, it is.

>>8886637
Though that wasn't that how the historical Ferreira was treated by the church?

>>8886618
Onbviously, what Jesuits did in the 60s isn't entirely relevant to the perspective of this novel.

>Also the radicalism of the kind you seen in Silence is divisive amongst some Catholics.

Elaborate?

>>8886618
He is no longer a friar?
>>8886563
I like Endo a lot, he's one of my favorite writers. Sadly can get only Silence and Kiku's Prayer. Endo hits the aesthetic really well, even if it is very ambitious about a lot of things, such as nature of apostasy as a moral good in a way.

>>8886702
No he left to train to be an actor at a drama school, which is how I met him (I'm on the same course if you dig). Very interesting and lovely guy.

>>8886664
I guess not I was being slightly jokey about it.

As for the divisiveness, look at the Chinese rights controversy. The pope condemned their actions in China and their taking on of Chinese customs and Religious concepts: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_Rites_controversy#Controversy

I will say however that I quite like Pope Francis even though he's Jesuit

>>8886660
The book's got little to do with real Ferreira. It's work of fiction. And the case of real Ferreira is far more complicated that simple expulsion.
http://pweb.cc.sophia.ac.jp/britto/xavier/cieslik/cie_ferreira.pdf

>>8886751

The pope's decision to ban the rites cause Christianity to be expelled from China for centuries. It's worth noting that in the 20th century, the papacy reversed the decision, so essentially it's no longer a controversy.

One must also remember the various traditions in Spain and other south european countries that sound absurd to the orthodoxy.

>>8886946
On pit torture:

>But whatever the refinements of the process, it is clear from a psychological viewpoint that this type of torture rendered clear thinking and genuine moral decision quite impossible within a short period of time; thus the greatest caution must be exercised in making a moral evaluation of so-called apostasy in the pit. Far more indicative of the victim's true state of mind is his attitude after being released from the torment: only if a prisoner kept up his retraction of Christianity can he be called an apostate in the true sense of the word. In these cases the apostate was granted his freedom, although he remained under lifelong surveillance. Others revoked their apostasy after being freed from the pit, and either they were then executed or else the Japanese officials refused to recognize their recantation. The officials were anxious to exert the maximum psychological effect on the Christian faithful by publicizing the cases of these korobi bateren or apostate priests. The efficacy of the torture was developed especially during the administration of the third Tokugawa shogun, Iemitsu, 1623-51, and Inoue Chikugo-no-kami introduced various refinements in order to obtain the desired pavlov-effect result. Both psychological and moral pressure was added to the physical torments, and, especially when dealing with women and girls, the officials strove to break the prisoners' self-respect and reduce them to moral wrecks. It was for this reason that apostate priests were forced to live with women, usually widows of executed criminals.

>>8886633
Or, maybe when I say I'm a recovering catholic it means I'm an ex priest. I entered seminary in 1971 and served the church for over thirty years. But hey, I'm sure you're second-hand knowledge is FAR more accurate than my personal experience.

/pic still related

>>8887416

For someone who served in ministry for over thirty years, you certainly do get upset about what some anon on 4chan says, and you certainly have a way of stooping to the level of the site's discourse level to express yourself

t. M.Div 2002

>>8887416
There are plenty of priests who know fuck all about the history of the church and are simply not interested in anything other than their own personal 'piety' and their interpretation of a catholic moral code. The man I know is a real, real expert on these matters, and it being second hand information doesn't lessen that fact. I can't argue the ins and outs or claim to have a large knowledge of the history of the Jesuits, but I know enough to make my claim that the Jesuits as an order are looked on with some dismay. The rupture Pope Francis has coursed should be an indication of that. Were you a Jesuit by any chance?

>>8886605
Jesuists are the most hardcore among Catholics. Irish here and Jesuits were baller af

>>8886563
>about faith and suffering in this world.
Is there a lit recommendation chart about such topics?

In every age, it is a matter of time before the Jesuits have poisoned their way inside the corridors of power, plunged your realm into chaos, and revenged themselves for schisms in dogma previously injected into Protestant churches by their own men. It is a jolly bunch, no doubt. What will be interesting to see is what happens next now that they have one of their own on the throne.

>>8886563
I wasn't too crazy about it, honestly. The Japanese have a way of writing very beautiful but very surface-level books, and a Catholic novel demands a heavier philosophical angle imo.

The whole bit about the Japanese mind being resistant to Christianity was fascinating, and much more interesting than the apostasy angle, but it wasn't looked into very much; sort of just a footnote to the rest of the book, whereas it probably should have been the main theme.

No reason it shouldn't make a good movie though -- I'm looking forward to seeing it.

Are we only talking about this because there's going to be a movie of it?

>>8886563
>Never been catholic but it really drives the point about faith and suffering in this world.
How is this book catholic? I mean why not call it christian? Is there something specifically catholic about faith and suffering that it's protestant or orthodox too?

>>8886618
Franciscans are barely Catholics anymore. The Schools they run are a fucking joke.

>>8887712
There's a chart for faith and a chart for suffering, I'm sure there's a bit of convergence between the two.
unfortunately I have neither charts on me

>>8888212
I'll try to look for them in the archives, thank you.

>Traditional Catholics worried about a Jesuit Pope
>They got laughed at and told to get back to failing to learn Latin for the 15th time
>Sometime later
>Pope Francis’ Reported Words: “I Will Go Down in History for Having Split the Catholic Church”

Why didn't they listen?

>>8888316
The Catholic Church was already split the second that Boston Globe article came out, and again when the Irish allegations emerged. At my parish there was an uprising of 75 parishioners demanding the church be run by lay council, and they won.

>>8888329
Are you a convert? Because parish councils aren't anything new.

Also your confused, this isn't about parishioners, we're actually in schism territory and cardinals are threatening the Pope a formal correction.

>>8888398
>Are you a convert
No, I left the church. Parishioners demanding control of parish finances and oversight of priest behavior over the control of the bishop seems pretty stunning to me, especially in a diocese with well attended traditional services.

>>8888407
Pro-tip: The parishioners "in charge" are buddies of the Bishop and in all likelihood the entire petition was his idea.

>>8888427
Considering when it happened the one in charge was Cardinal Law, and he was tossed a short time later, I strongly doubt it.

>>8886605
Old school Jesuits were badass intellectuals that instigated most independence movements in Latin America and Africa. Actual Jesuits are guitar-loving, child-molesting faggots.

>>8888179
Only if you have a very surface level understanding of Christianity. It's like saying all Saudi produced media represents Islamic theology

>>8888441
Jesuits have been suppressed multiple time throughout history, most old school Jesuits weren't bad ass intellectuals either; they've always been heretical faggots.

This seems like an appropriate thread. Can someone either explain or point me towards a well regarded article addressing the conspiracy theories surrounding Benedict's abdication and the "gay lobby"?

>>8888788
What conspiracy do you even need

The man looked like Satan how can he be pope

>>8886563
Silence is a great novel, but it doesn't offer any good grounds for Catholic (or other Christian) orthodoxy. Or religion in general. Which is precisely why it's a good, personal work.

Don't care what [other people] think about the book.

>>8888329
Of course it's the parishioners' fault and not the pedophile priests and their enablers in the church.

Fucking morons, drop the charade.

>>8888834
Benedict XVI is actually a really well spoken and articulate man. In written work he is way above Francis in quantity and quality. His abdication may have been a proper masterstroke in terms of salvaging the church's reputation. As for his own, he knew he isn't a poster boy from the set go, and he never played one, but he worked elsewhere with what he had, and that work is monumental and will stand the test of time. Don't look at his visage, but delve into what he wrote, and you'll find a man worthy of his time in throne.

>>8888788
He pretty much dedicated a entire chapter to it in his latest book; he destroyed a "gay lobby" within the church which in turn greatly upset the Jesuits.

Benedict is legitimately the best Pope Catholicism has had in a long time.

>>8888912
I have low opinion of religious people the higher up they go. i don't care enough.

>>8888912
I refuse to believe he isn't going to be made a saint and Doctor of the Church in record time.

>>8888968
Saint not possible, Doctor of the Church a good chance.

>>8888959
Jeah, just go and judge books by covers, I'll just quietly instil a doubt in you by telling you you're missing out by not reading him.

>>8888912

>In written work he is way above Francis in... quality
>and that work is monumental and will stand the test of time

You're talking about the man who completely destroyed the poetic flow of the Nicene Creed because of "muh consubstantial with the father."

Anyone else see the movie? I actually enjoyed it more than the book.
>>8889991
>>muh aesthetics are more important than accurate wording in prayers

>>8886622
Damn, she looks just like Theresa May.

>>8888147
This was well known here before the movie was announced (if we don't count the 2011 or so when the information was that Scorsese would film it one day).
>>8888179
Martyrdom has never been a big thing with protestants, neither was the Eucharist or other sacraments which play a big role considering we are talking about priests whose main job is to administer them.
>>8888316
There's a stunning anti intellectual atmosphere with the supporters of Francis and various heresies (not necessarily a correlation with each mind you). They don't listen because that requires understanding of theology and philosophy. Quoting Aquinas and Scripture and Canon law makes you a pharisee.
>>8888912
He himself must have been aware that the only way the Church would have a good reputation would be renouncing Christ when dealing with secular institutions. And he never did that, but judging from Francis, this has become his main thing, opting to hide Him and the Church for an arbitrary secular mercy and turning Church into a NGO.

>He himself must have been aware that the only way the Church would have a good reputation would be renouncing Christ when dealing with secular institutions. And he never did that, but judging from Francis, this has become his main thing, opting to hide Him and the Church for an arbitrary secular mercy and turning Church into a NGO.

You are aware that Benedict and Francis talk regulary, and that Benedict was the main man behind John Paul? Health must have been a big reason for his abdication. He virtually continued John Pauls work in every way, but his foreign visits were down by considerable margin. Church now needs active Pope, and he stepped down so it has this.

>>8886563

About to get it in a couple of days.

>>8888859
>Don't care what [other people] think about the book.
Then why are you here?

>>8891158
Benedict was to far ahead of the curve with his traditionalism, people on /lit/ pretend like Francis' liberalism is reviving the Church but in fact Its doing the exact opposite.

Tridentine mass, conservative congregations and theology has exploded in popularity recently especially among cafeteria Catholics and the younger crowd.

>>8886618
You're ignoring all the serious activism the jesuits did in the south-american 60s, but of course you faggots don't learn about that otherwise you'd learn about your "democractic" government toppling legitimate governments chosen by popular vote.

>>8891158
>You are aware that Benedict and Francis talk regulary, and that Benedict was the main man behind John Paul?
I am, having read 8 or so of his works.
>Health must have been a big reason for his abdication.
It was, he was saying how bad it was even in 2007 in Jesus of Nazareth.
>He virtually continued John Pauls work in every way, but his foreign visits were down by considerable margin.
I know, he wrote more and visited less. His output was intellectual and is seen mostly in the liturgy. Latin mass within the Church is back due to him.
>Church now needs active Pope, and he stepped down so it has this.
If we are going to judge from the failure of South America, we need a pope who will be strict and offer the gospel of Jesus Christ instead of some strange liberation theology influenced rhetoric. Everything which is touched by the supporters of Francis (Cupich, Marx and co) whethers away the callings. This proactive papacy will bring a division within the Church as he reportedly admitted himself.
>>8891298
Average age at our monthly latin mass is like 35 as opposed to 55-60, so yes. But more importantly they bring more priests, FSSP is ordaining more instead of less, which is right now in the western world almost unheard of. In 16 years they had over 250 ordinations.

>>8891314
What the fuck are you talking about? What has politics got to do with anything? I'm not American if you're insinuating that

>>8886563
To those who have read it - do you think it's worth racing through before watching the film? I'm weighing it up now....

>>8886605

Who, exactly, are these "in the know" Catholics?

>>8886637

Eh, even if the missionaries "technically didn't do anything wrong" you can bet that denying Christ and trampling the fumie would at least ruffled some feathers in the church. This is one of those things where a church might say that they forgive their gay members but they're probably going to be treated differently.

Plus, Ferrera and the other went beyond just trampling and at the end of the novel they are writing books trashing Christianity and actively trying to turn the Japanese away from it. That's definitely not cool with the rules.

>>8892764
Anybody who has read any recent issue of America magazine.

protestants are cucks desu

>>8890003
Does the movie have subtitled portions?

I read the book with my Grandma and we both liked it, but her eyes can't see for shit. If there are subtitles she won't be able to follow them.

>>8892793
Christcucks in general are deluded cucks desu

>>8886563
d-does anyone have a pdf or epub or this book?

>>8893143
I do.

>>8893370
thanks

>>8892781
What Fierra did was certainly apostasy. And it still would ruffle theologians as such, consequentialism is wrong. Denying Christ to save others is based on consequences which do not matter at all due to denying Christ being the gravest sin of them all. Being under massive pressure is of course a mitigating factors in terms of his own guilt, but when it was said that this was on shaky theological grounds, it wasn't wrong.
>>8893143
Check the sticky and find it there.

>>8886563

>Never been catholic but it really drives the point about faith and suffering in this world.

Pic VERY related.

>>8893143