/lit/ - Literature

>>6809148
fuck off back to /christian/

>>6809161
Go back to /atheism/?

>>6809148
Friendly reminder to help keep /lit/ clean by reporting all off topic threads

>>6809163
>implying I'm atheist
>implying sad /christian/ memes aren't recognizable

>>6809172
How is it off topic? Theology is generally discussed here.

>>6809173
If you aren't an atheist, then I'm not sure why you're complaining, since this thread is about Islam, not Christianity.

>>6809181
We'll let the mods decide

>>6809181
we only discuss marxism here

>>6809148
Al-Ghazali's Philosophical Theology is a good book

>>6809200
Thanks. And do you know if such a distinction is made?

all the christian girls I know are very slutty

>>6809221
Christian girls aren't more or less slutty than atheist ones, unless their parish and /or circle strongly stresses sexual morality AND the girl doesn't get irritated with it and rebel.

>>6809148
Suhrawardi and ibn Arabi consider Being for their theological arguments. Read Henri Corbin's Alone with the Alone for a concise understanding.

And Islamic chant takes the form of zikr/dhikr, Qur'an recitals, and nasheed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0gh1vKSkBQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OQHp_o2TepY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XscCZO3R4So

>>6809236
Have some dank auto-tuned nasheed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anbD9w-QVeQ

>>6809236
>>6809254
Great. Thanks a bunch!

>he's a "learned" christian
boy are you gonna fell like a dumbass when you're dying

>>6809296
Because it's not required for salvation?

>>6809296
If anything a christian would feel better dying.

And unless you can somehow prove that being a christian decreases your quality of life then lol who the fuck would care.

>>6809225
catholic girls are notoriously slutty

>>6809254
"Modernized" anasheed are the Muslim version of Christian Rock. I like my religious music acoustic, for the most part.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXKJrh92jtw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGtYhWokUvc
The audio in these are kind of shit but there's so much power in the voices and in both you can see the regional influences, and yet they are the same dhikr.

>>6809303
>self-deception for the sake of selfishness
hi satan

>>6809304
They aren't anymore than secular girls, unless they are rebelling against sexual repression, but against those there are also the ones who take their faith extremely seriously.

>>6809304
I dont know. Maybe only in America but in Latin America that does not seem to be the case.

>>6809325
>latin america
ayy
never went to brasil?

>>6809325
Latin American young Catholics tend to be Catholics in name only.

>>6809336
Brazilian girls aren't any more slutty than in other parts. They're easier to kiss but much harder to sleep with.

>>6809347
not in Rio or Sao Paolo
And most of them are catholics.
Just look at the young pregnant women statistics.

>>6809313
Little bit of Sama
https://soundcloud.com/eslamtammam/da7amgczeo30

Muslim version of Rock
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lt3caUn2e8

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay! (2:87, Yusif Ali)

>>6809353
I'm Brazilian and lived in Europe for little more than 2 years. Girls of every Catholic European country were much easier to everyone. Especially the French.

>>6809374
European girls tend to be easier, everyone know about that. Are you sure they were catholic? There are few catholics in europe, most of them are protestant or atheist.

I dunno guys I've slept with some real slutty christian/catholic girls

>>6809313
Maybe I can interest you in some of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1txg0nI8lI

>>6809379
>Protestant
In Germany or Scandinavia (hardly reliious people) or England, maybe

>>6809381
bretty gud

>>6809366
more like this, anon: based Shahram Nazeri
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiKwdXABKu0

>>6809379
What I do know is most Catholics in Brazil are just like their counterparts in Latin Europe, they consider themselves Catholic but don't go to Mass, don't confess regularly or ever, etc. The young pregnancy numbers are counting mostly poor young girls who have lower level of education also about birth control and get pregnant of their teen boyfriends - not middle-class girls having one-night-stands all over the place and getting knocked up by Brad in the club bathroom. The latter are much more slutty in my view at least.

>>6809399
Are you speaking this from experience?

Have you lived a life of dissipation?

>>6809407

>enter christian thread
>slander their women
>thread derailed
>mfw

>>6809399
Middle class girls use birth control more anyway. So you see a young poor girl pregnant after losing her virginity (happened to one woman I know), and you think of her as slutty even though the well to do woman has fucked over 9000 guys. Not to sound /pol/, but our society is fucked up in its perceptions of promiscuity.

>>6809407
Pretty much. Being Brazilian in Europe made this womanizing life easier for me. But I'm settling down recently. Also I'm not even Christian myself.

>>6809426
>Confessions of Saint Hue

>>6809419
Not really, Thomas got his answer. Probably the only answer he was GOING to get, considering I and probably most of this board know fuck-all about Islamic theology.

I had a chance to read the Mi Raj in college, but I fucked about and skipped it. In my defense, it was during a study abroad in Turkey.

>>6809148
what about secularism in islamic countries?
So far I've read Averroes. I heard Maimonides (not a muslim) is pretty good.

>>6809431
Makes strange sense. I have also dabbled in Neoplatonism as Augustine. But Brazil already has its "City of God" - the book is good by the way, last attempt to make this thread more /lit/

>>6809441
Well, I got an answer insofar as things I should read, but not exactly a straight answer to the question of whether Islamic theology considers there to be a distinction between being and person. Considering the Trinity consists of three persons but one being, it's a pretty crucial issue.

>>6809447
Islam's understanding of God is fundamentally and totally Unitarian. I think they probably wouldn't make a distinction if they were going to be sincere, would they? For them, being=person, so Christianity's claim of a Triune God would strike them as polytheism.

That seems like what they'd have to do- because if they do make a distinction between Being and Person, what's the matter with the Trinity?

>>6809447

John 14:11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

>>6809480
God refers to himself in the plural in numberous verse in the OT, but singular in the others.

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
-Isaiah 9:6

>>6809537
*numerous

>>6809478
this appears like a sort of distinction, but I am unsure

>It is noticed that the original language of the source, e.g. Greek, German and English, has only one word for two concepts, ast and hast, or, like Arabic, has no word at all for either word. It therefore exploits the Persian hast (existential is) versus ast (predicative is or copula) to address both Western and Islamic ontological arguments on being and existence.[12]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Being#Being_in_Islamic_philosophy

>>6809537

Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

>>6809607
Yes, the last part is in the Nicene Creed. The Son sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty, but the Son is also God.

I'm not sure what point you're making with the first two verses.

"I and my Father are one."
-John 10:30

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
-John 1:1

"The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."

-John 1:14

>>6809447
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sfuwedeop2o
Ibn Arabi in particular, and other sufis, talks about the Unity of Being (wahdat al-wujuud). The only Being is God. God alone is persistent, absolute, without beginning and without end; thus, though things like people, trees, and planets are /real/, only God can be said to be real /in every respect/. The effervescent nature of everything else (reality) is nothing, non-existent. In this sense, Islam actually ascribes person-hood ONLY to Allah, as all other things are the real theophanies (or what Corbin refers to as angelophanies) originating and subsisting upon the One, Absolute Real.

For Islam, the Christian fuss over the Persons of God is misplaced. You say there is God the Son, the Father, the Holy Spirit? Yes, but you're forgetting the Wise, the Patient, etc. Allah has many Names and Attributes, but they do not separate and take separate thoughts. In Eastern Orthodoxy also there is the recognition that God's Energies are not separations of Him. In Islam, the Christ is indeed refereed to as "the Word of God", but where the Christian sees Christ's birth as God's birth the Muslim understands that Christ's birth is the working of God's Word, his Energies, as it is with all things. In short, from an Islamic perspective, Christians are seeings the forest for one tree when they form their Christology.

>>6809665

1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him.

>>6809667
To get more to the point of your OP, you could say that Islam makes the distinction of Being and Person (Allah is the Being and His Names are his Persons) but with wider results, as it were and with the strong understanding that there is no division of these "Persons" at all, which are more like Energies.

>>6809667
Christians believe God actually came down in human form, so right there you're going to have to have some sort of differentiating of persons, since God has to be sustaining the universe at the same time. Also, Christians believe that God literally inhabits human body's sometimes, which is what we call the Holy Spirit, and we consider it the source of the prophets, and so that's going to be something of a separation as well. In fact, it's a crucial distinction between Catholics and Orthodox (although it's not what's holding back reconciliation): Catholics think the Holy Spirit proceeds from both the Father and the Son, whereas Orthodox think it only proceeds from the Father; meaning Catholics think the Holy Spirit guides you to be more Christlike, whereas Orthodox don't think guidance from the Holy Spirit has anything to do with emulating Christ.

>>6809667
>In this sense, Islam actually ascribes person-hood ONLY to Allah, as all other things are the real theophanies (or what Corbin refers to as angelophanies) originating and subsisting upon the One, Absolute Real.
so literally pantheism

good job muslims

>>6809675
Can't argue with that, though that doesn't change that the Word was in the beginning and was God. Therefore it wasn't created.

>>6809695
I think it's more like subjective idealism

>>6809680
Well, names aren't persons, exactly, in Christianity, since God has many names "Adonai, Elohim,. YHWH, Deus, etc.), but only three persons. And even these persons have multiple names (The Holy Spirit is also called the Holy Ghost, not to mention his names in other languages).

>>6809695
Panentheism, actually; both of which are the only truly Monotheological positions. If you're putting forward a theism and reality in this theism isn't either synonymous with God or an impermanent product of-and-within God, you're literally separating God from the Universe and subscribing powers to created elements that are separated from God. Which is polytheism. So, yes, good job Muslims.

>>6809691
>Christians believe God actually came down in human form
This is of course anathema to Islam for a number of reasons, the most obvious of which is that it is literally idolatry (believing that a created thing can contain or actually be God) and the most interesting of which is that it is incoherent and/or redundant (How can the Unique One, who is eternally Omnipresent, who is "closer to you even than your jugular vein," constrain himself into a single human body, but simultaneously maintain His omnipresent Being? Isn't that just saying that all things are actually incarnations of God? It has to be since there is no place where God isn't.)

>>6809822
>you're literally separating God from the Universe and subscribing powers to created elements that are separated from God. Which is polytheism.
what?
that's a big jump right there
to attribute created things inherent powers doesnt make created things God