/lit/ - Literature

>>6782498
Don't try to understand that dyke. Anyone who says gender is a social construction is being unscientific.

>>6782545
Gender. Isn't. Sex.

How many times 4chan.

>formed from the refusal to grieve the masculine as a possibility of love
I understand gender as a social construct and generally agree that it is one, but I do not understand the Butler greentext at all.

>>6782567
The left loves to redefine terms. To them, culture is not something that evolves collectively and gradually. New cultural pronouncements must be explicitly articulated by the "intellectually and morally superior" elite and then forced upon the "barbaric" population. Don't fall for that crap.

>>6782574
yea same

she's using grieve in some specialized way she defined on her own for some annoying reason, I assume.

red flag

"biological gender" isn't a thing lol

there's biological sex
then societal gender.

gender is a made-up construct, while biological sex is immutable.

>>6782545
Strawman. Read Butler
>>6782567
She argues against this distinction
>>6782582
Strawman. But I dont even know which books you should read to cure it. Maybe try being more intelectually honest

>>6782582
Why do you try to shovel away working with language? "The left loves to redefine terms"

So does fucking Socrates what's your point?

Gender is definitely divorced from biological sex, that's basic, as much as you don't treat people as man or woman because you've seen their genitalia, but because you assume their social position through the way they look and act. The concept of gender is a social construct in that sense, becauser you take certain attitudes to be masculine and certain attitudes to be feminine. From there, a lot of assumptions are made and you enter the debate on discrimination, sexism and so on.

The quotes are complicated to explain, but sound. You'd have to read more or give more context to them.

>>6782604
The difference between the left and Socrates is that Socrates said he didn't know anything.

>>6782626
How dense are you?

The point I was bringing up was that philosophy in general usually works with redefining terms to a large degree because it actually matters when you are trying to make sense of the world.

Aristotle and Plato redefined terms just as much as Socrates and they both attempted to posit conclusions and arguments besides "I do not know"

>>6782582
No they don't you fucking idiot, read a dictionary. Sex is biological, gender is attached to cultural ideas about what men and women do.

>>6782604
because it isn't "working with language" like Socrates in order to make a philosophical point. It's just redefining a term in order to make their own opinion seem objectively correct and then leaving it at that, and shutting down any philosophical exploration that disagrees with the redefinition.

>>6782650
You are just setting up a straw man

>your sex has no impact on how you develop as a person, and how you interact with others.

Demonstrably false.

Sure, it is not the only factor at work, but to dismiss it outright is just wrong.

>>6782592
>while biological sex is immutable
Life, uh, finds a way.

>>6782668
in humans, that is

apart from intersex people, it's not something that can just be switched around all willy-nilly.

i'm just pretty invested in the whole thing because the whole trans-cult po-mo grossness is really dangerous and damaging

>>6782697
I was just posting a meme, but sure.

>>6782704
https://youtu.be/clU0Sh9ngmY

I find it hard to understand how come such a simples idea is hard to understand
Isnt it obvious that you are not your gender, but you repeatdly perform/become/create it? Its everywhere to see: you can have a biological male apparatus and still be pressured to "man up", " be a REAL man". (Same goes with the ladies). Its not guaranteed. Even if you do have balls you may be asked to "grow a pair" if you dont act upon it. Thus gender is less based upon an internal, biological truth, and more in repeated action/performance.
((Ramblings start now))
4chan is a place where masculinity is very valued. But its easy to see that most men here are not masculine. Some even identify openly as "betas". I think maybe people here cling so much to the biological narrative because they are afraid to admit masculinity is not a given, that they have to openly and actively search and be masculine. Its easy to look at your genitalia and say 'yup, I'm a man' than to go out there and earn your right to call yourself a real man

>>6782704
ya but i wanted to correct myself b/c lots of animals manage to switch around

>>6782498

Convince me that any of this is important.

>>6782745
the rejection of queer/gender theory is important because it really validates patriarchy when none of it is true yet everyone wants to be politically correct and vouch for its truthfulness

>>6782750

Interesting, but why is patriarchy bad?

I get that gender roles are social, but that gender is social i dont buy.

every culture seems to separate men and women and while the roles differ you still see the distinction and that distinction falls mostly in line with biological sex.

>>6782739
People on 4chan are not actually smart at all, they usually just think they are because they are smarter than total imbeciles.

>>6782755
>why are lies bad
are you really asking this question

>>6782763
>smarter than total imbeciles

I'll take it.

>>6782739

>under my definition of X, A happens.

>well, under MY definition of X, Z happens.

>argue semantics for the rest of thread, without adressing the points either side makes.

There you go, saved you some time.

>>6782761
But sometimes it doesn't.

Just Google "third gender". It's an anthropology concept to describe the odd categories (not being "man" or "women") some cultures have.

>>6782739
>4chan is a place where masculinity is very valued.
Kinda, yeah.

>>6782761
yeah the separation comes from the male understanding they can rape and control girls and women and get away with it. they're gross creatures.

everything about "femininity" has to do with submission and subjugation, and it's a purely male creation.

>>6782781
The willy only makes it better tbh.

>>6782782

Poe's law strikes again.

>>6782642
That's actually not in any dictionary pre-2010s.

>>6782763
That's what smart is.

>>6782781
4ch is a place where nothing is valued collectively.

it's the only place you really hear masculinity positively evaluated because it's anonymous. In real life being male-positive always results in slanderous accusations of misogyny, chauvinism, probably abusive/rapist, serial killer, etc

>>6782779
I'm aware of this, but society are never built around these people, its just a category that notices people who don't fit.

>>6782782
Still does not mean gender is a social construct.

You are just telling me that you don't like the social roles one gender got

>>6782792
uh no it's demonstrably true? there's tons of academic analysis on the subject

>>6782788
Internet data (google, porn sites,...) say that looking at penises is far more arousing to straight men than to straight women anyway

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-A8GvUehq4

>>6782781
there is only two categories
1 things my body tells me to fuck
2 things my body does not feel the need to fuck

the amount of dicks on the thing that might fall into category one does not stop it from being a woman

>>6782650
So did Newton. Literally anybody working with new ideas has to specify the already existing language.

I know you're a /pol/tard, but try to make it less obvious.

>>6782816
This is why i keep my shit 100% /s/

all porn is an excuse to see dicks and I personally am not about that.

>>6782816

Sorry bro, confirmed sham from insecure bisexual.

>>6782820
>forgetting >things my body tells me to eat
u wil evner into phosliiphy

>>6782802
Maybe not built around them, but like those Oaxacan lady-boys, these people are often just understood as a fact of life, rather than a deviation.

Though, I think we are probably the first society that as tried to pinpoint every single, tiniest bit of someone's identity. I think it's cause we have so much free-time. Society turned inward, to self-analysis.

>>6782833
are you being serious? source?

Their notions of gender look ugly. They seem to think that it should not exist, and that the existence of it is an evil to them. Rascals, I have no doubt, are at work among them. The fools, not to see that what they madly desire would be such a calamity to them as no hands but their own could bring upon them.

>>6782836
eating is just fucking where everyone is a girl and the mouth is the vagina.

Nice try, but i keep my philosophy low on moving parts like a real thinker should.

>>6782843
Not that guy.
They wrote a book. The presentation was literally just an ad to the book. Look the book up and look at the criticism towards the methodology they used.

>>6782827

Exept "Gender studies" doesn't explore something that has never been studied before, and the ideas within can be easily expressed with existing terminology.

The reason new terminology is coined is to give the reaserch more crediblity as a groundbreaking subject when it isn't.

>>6782838
Yea. Dont get me wrong, i think society should notice people who dont fall into male/female.

But i just dont buy the idea that these exceptional categories could be expanded to encompass everyone in a special snowflake tent.

and i don't buy the idea that social groups dont always divide into two main genders that order most things. this grey space in between is always small.

>>6782871
aside from biologically intersex people, all people fall into male/female.

this whole genderqueer thing is actually so stupid and false and just falls back on preexisting gender roles. it's just navel-gazing.

>>6782642
this has only been recently defined in the dictionary with the new-age social movement.

>>6782739
>4chan is a place where masculinity is very valued.
Though it's true that people here are alienated from masculinity, I wouldn't say masculinity is necessarily very valued.

A lot of this vitriol on 4chan seems to come down to the people who: cling to science because they are STEM nerds, try to defend themselves when they are accused of being dudebros because they're trapped in their basements and never got to enjoy the benefits of being a dudebro, who are contrarians against mainstream PC politics, who have shitty political opinions and get filtered out/banned everywhere else, who get incredibly mad when you tell them what to do and what they can and cannot say on the internet. The purpose of defending masculinity is often to be a contrarian and to attack tone-policing of any kind.

>>6782832
How does this function as an argument.
That "big cock" is a popular theme on porn sites is a fact. If you say it's because the people watching it have bi tendencies, then okay, you can relabel a lot of strength men as bi, but that doesn't change the fact that lots of men like explicitly seeing cock penetrating.

>>6782895
everything in 4chan is masculine. even if only because 90% of the population is male and the maybe 10% who isn't is told to shut the fuck up whenever they say anything interesting.

>>6782766
That's also a valid question, lies can often be good

>>6782816
>Kinsey mentioned
It's all flooding back.

Modern academia has grown weak. Miss the days when you'd test babies' grasping reflex by lifting them by canes.

>>6782909
How does the masculinity of anon express themselves, other than in the desire of sex with girls (which isn't focus of all threads)?

Man, the world is utterly fucked up.

Where is the reset button.

>>6782918
laughed really hard at this

>>6782900

yea seeing dicks cant kill your sex drive otherwise you would lose your own boner seeing yourself go to town.

My issue is not with watching penetration itself or because i have a dick phobia, but rather that any place where dicks are shown the bias leans way more in favor of more dicks than less.

I'm personally a very vanilla man. obviously i go on s, but even when i watched porn it was POV only with a dick that looked like mine, only one dick involved etc.

Im not calling porn inherently gay, im just saying i think porn sites are naturally incentivized to show you as many dicks as possible and im not interested in that.

>>6782925
the reset button is you anon.

Do what you must

>>6782925
Right here.

>>6782927

You might have empathy problems.

Most people just project into one of the characters, without caring its not actually them.

>>6782944
sounds like cuck logic to me TBH.

work at a soup kitchen if you want empathy rofl

>>6782949

>cuck

Yet another word that 4chan has ran into the ground, and has lost its meaning compleately.

>>6782909
But it's not the same as doing the dudebro song and dance. Anonymity rips away all these layers of "normal" social performative acts until there is nothing left but ammo for verbal abuse and porno. Users adapt their insults and it just happens to be useful to call everyone a retarded faggot. At the same time, people throw around terms like trap and fuccboi and boipussy and rip the definition in the OP to shreds. The only thing that matters anymore is pleasure and schadenfreude just happens to be particularly easy to obtain.

Guys, can anyone concisely explain why the humanities feel morally obligated to deconstruct and subvert traditional gender norms, other than "I bet the patriarchs did this.jpg"

I guess they really belief it constitutes systematic oppression? However, that doesn't fully explain why they'd rather see the gender binary dropped altogether.

>>6783105
I think it's just an aspect that automatically pops up when you analyze society and see the classical man-women scheme doesn't work for the whole capitalistic state (and not even make the cis people into happy persons)

why is it fine for philosophers to invent terms but when critical theorists do reactionaries invoke boogie men like "the liberal establishment" and "academia"

>>6783180
It's not just about capitalism. Capitalism fosters individuality and the differentiation that comes with that, sure, but it's got a lot to do with anthropology and trans-cultural studies.

Though those all raise some notions of stuff that seems pretty universal, but those topics aren't sexy so they aren't so represented outside the circles of the people that study them.

>>6783204
Philosophers also got shat on often.

Notions of "conservative" and "progressive" change, and not in a linear way.

Some views will mesh with the cultural background, others will be trashed and others simply forgotten.

Same with natural sciences.

Mathematicians are the real patricians.

>>6783180
it's a self-justifying stance, the humanities adopt it as a blanket to protect against their sense that they are of less importance than STEM academics. They craft a self-reinforcing narrative where they are fighting against an oppressive force, the nebulous patriarchy, on behalf of 'the underprivileged.' This 'fighting against' consists of whining and 'gotcha' statements, with the occasional public sacrifice (public firing of a male academic for heresy)

>>6783263
forgot to add: the payout is that doing this humanities academics can claim that they are doing 'important work'

>>6783263
Also, it's self-reinforcing because anyone that criticizes the narrative is labeled de facto against it, and therefore a patriarchal oppressor of the underprivileged.

>>6783263
I'm the OP, a PhD in physics, and interested in the topic from the standpoint that I don't like being labeled and obliged to follow the behaviorism that come with "being a man".
Years ago I formulated a mantra of not wanting to be deemed member of a group that contains people I don't even know personally. Like "men". Or "physicist". Because this way I always must play an apologetic role.
I read about Nietzschean lines of thought that permit some individualism in that regard. Then, on /lit/, Stirner. In any case, I find it almost inescapable because it seems to me that to date chicks, you must adopt traits they expect (the ones opposed to the feminine).
I also don't think anybody is 100% straight, so that's why I try to understand the gender spectrum idea.

>>6783405
>Years ago I formulated a mantra of not wanting to be deemed member of a group that contains people I don't even know personally. Like "men". Or "physicist". Because this way I always must play an apologetic role.
They're not really "groups" so much as structured sets of demographic assumptions, sometimes based on data and sometimes not. What begins as "Demographically, people with trait/group of traits X tend to like activity Y" becomes "You have X, so you are more likely Y" which becomes "black people have sickle cell anemia" or "girls like dolls" or "glaswegians knife people"
It's just heuristics, which can be useful and can be unncessarily prejudicial

>>6783405
Read Mead, then read all the reasons why she was wrong.

That should even you out.

>>6783428
Sorry, but that sounds kinda pedantic.

It falls in the broader definition of "groups".

>>6783405
>phd physics, not interested in being a man
so you're a faggot, I see.

>formulated a mantra of not wanting to be deemed a member of a group that I am a part of
you would fit right in with SJWs tbh, you don't have to play an apologetic role, you can follow the SJW playbook and browbeat people about their lack of sensitivity to trans-issues and shit.

except that you're biologically male, and so the SJW contingency will inevitably eat you alive for being an uppity little boy if you ever drop your apologetic faggery.

come back when you realize being a give-no-shits dude is objectively the best stance.

>>6783442
Or don't and just reject the labels, only assuming them when they will give you a social edge.

Always have an angle, otherwise be fluid as water, because what doesn't bend will break.

>>6782498
OK, the thing about Butler is that she comes across as way more confusing than she is because she doesn't really mention when she's using psychoanalytic terms or which branch of psychoanalysis she's taking them from.

The first one, about 'grieving the masculine' she's specifically talking about the Freudian concept of 'grieving', and the second comes from object relations stuff - love-object &c. I don't want to try to explain these without context, but if you look up the terms that should help.

IMO her psychoanalytic stuff is second-rate compared to like Lacan or Kristeva. There's a reason she's best known for her Austinian ideas. Amusingly, she's much less philosophically radical than Austin, in a bid to preserve some sort of exceptionalism for gender studies. This is the problem with gender types - gender always has to be this special case, this fundamentally important category, when really their understanding of it as a special category is just a hangover from structuralism and pre-Lacanian psychoanalysis. You're coming at this from the right angle, though, thinking about gender as one of many modes of definition or classification - if you haven't read Foucault yet I think you'd like him a lot.

>>6783506
>2015
>psychoanalysis

>>6783529
>[TIPPING INTENSIFIES]

>>6783442
>>not interested in being a man
>so you're a faggot, I see.
Especially in the context of this thread, it's hard for me to get what this is saying. Yeah, I'd like not to be thought of as a man, just as much as I'd like not to be thought of as a physicist or 28 year old. However, it's clear that the general population needs a classification scheme and from that pov I'm all of those three things. (In the sense of >>6783428)

>you can follow the SJW playbook and browbeat people about their lack of sensitivity to trans-issues and shit
I'm not investing energy in changing peoples ideas. So I don't discuss those topics with anyone unless I think I can gain information or it's fun.

>come back when you realize being a give-no-shits dude is objectively the best stance.
My 'I don't give a fuck' level is already fairly high.
Now in my day to day life I need to act in one way or another, and I read up what theorist suggests the options are - maybe some I haven't thought of before.

>>6783506
What do you recommend reading for a modern perspective (one that's understandable for me) on the topic?

>Austinian ideas
Are those on this very topic?

>a masculine gender is formed from the refusal to grieve the masculine as a possibility of love
>refusal to grieve the masculine as a possibility of love

I don't even know what that's supposed to mean. My real analysis textbook is more lucid than a lot of these gender academics.

OP again, going to sleep now, but I also just remembered that some hours ago I had posted this on lbgt as well

>>>/lbgt/4592317

OP again, going to sleep now, but I also just remembered that some hours ago I had posted this on /lgbt/ as well

>>>/lgbt/4592317

>>6784040
Well, psychoanalysis is a big and difficult field, and it's difficult to distinguish between the interesting and the nonsensical bits. I'd say either make the decision to get stuck in properly or forget about it. I guess if you want to try to get into Lacan on this, there's a book called 'Lacan: a feminist introduction' and one called 'the logic of sexuation from Aristotle to Lacan'. But it's worth remembering that any feminist/gender studies works will be pretty biased towards a pre-existing politicized position, and they tend to focus on the question of 'was Lacan crimethinkful or plusgood?'

J.L. Austin's 'How to do things with words' is a really great book which will get you to see language from a different angle. His essay 'A plea for excuses' is shorter, available online (I think) and a great introduction to his approach. Essentially, Butler expands Austin's theory of 'performative language' to extend to the acts which place us in a specific social category. I'd also strongly recommend Foucault, starting with the first volume of his History of Sexuality (but he, too, ought to be taken with a pinch of salt - think of him as brainstorming rather than laying out a definite system of thought)

>>6784112
Thanks.

>>6784112
>'was Lacan crimethinkful or plusgood?
Oh Anon I'm stealing this insult it's plusplusgood

>>6782626
and many "leftists" do as well

fuck the leftists. Kill them all

>>6784449
Doesn't stop their moral indignation though

>>6782642
>prescriptivism

>>6786806
If you want to object to the post, do so openly. Don't just blurt out a buzzword in implicit disapproval. Why is it prescriptivist and why is that bad? I shouldn't have to educate you to discuss ideas like a normal person.

>>6786725
Back to your holding pen, animal.

>>6786816
why should I have to educate you on why prescriptivism is bad? way to contradict yourself

>>6784437
*doubleplusgood

>>6786824
Because you shouldn't take your subjectivity and ideology for granted. Assertion isn't enough, you have to prove it as well. Otherwise you'll be no different from those you oppose, as evidenced by >>6786822.

>>6786839
Seriously fuck off, /pol/io

>>6786850
Do you have any actual objections other than name-calling? It's not even ad hominem at this point, because ad hominem is used by an actual argument.

>>6782498
Feminism is a marxist cancer on society eating away at society like a worm eats away at an apple

>Feminism works guiz
>the 57 gender identities are all natural guiz
>who are you to think otherwise you intolerant shitlord!
>Our Hugbox is stonk guyyzz!!!

>>6786988
Feminism and identity politics are deployed by capitalism to prepare the workforce for the injection of women and minorities. It doesn't matter if your boss is a disabled transgendered pakistani as long as the money flows upwards.

Does she have any evidence for her claims?

>>6787011
it's also a distraction technique deployed to separate society by creating even more labels and even more Others.

The only truth is our mortality and the end is getting closer every day.

>>6787011

It's also a means for capitalists to devide and conquer the proletariat and distract them from the socialist revolution

>How can you focus on your capital if society is infested with minorities that commit violence?

>>6787011
If you have read any widely accepted feminist manifesto you would know that they are literally Marxists.

If some people believe that one constructs their gender and chooses how to act/feel/think doesn't that make being a fag a choice and not "uncontrollable genetic blah blah"?

>>6787048
And Noam Chompsky is a rich anarchist who works for MIT

>>6787032
>proletariat

what modern lolbrals really don't want you to remember about Marx is his division between the proletariat and the lumpenproletariat. Liberals are bourgeois using the 'plight' of lumpenproles (ghetto blacks, etc) to squeeze the proletariat (which, in modern america, is larger than one would think - remember, being a prole is about not owning capital, not how many consumer goods you have).

>>6787065
http://socialistworker.org/2013/01/31/marxism-feminism-and-womens-liberation

>>6787100
In the actual world these people are just concerned with getting more money and power, which is extremely evident. Why do you think George Soros appears to be funding them.

Okay, I like you guys idea that "identity studies", are movements that break apart society into more distinct individuals and that might weaken them to act as one.

However, saying that this is bad is hopefully implying that capitalism is inferior to some other particular idea. What is that system?

>>6787197
is that zizek?

>>6782567
Sex is gender there is no difference.

>>6782600
fallacy man pls go

>>6782782
do women not even into liberalism?

>>6783180
You have it completely backwards. You remove gender antagonism and capitalism falls apart.

Capitalism without class antagonism is fascism. This is what will occur if third-wave feminists succeed. For example, the Third Reich (coincidence?).
>The world is run by Jews.
>The Jews have all the power in the world.
>#killalljews lmao y u mad its just a joke dinkleberg
>Germans must replace Jews in order for the world to be just.
You can replace Germans with women and Jews with men.

Thankfully for us all, women are inferior to men in everything they do. This includes being fascists and totalitarians.

SIEG HEIL

>>6787278
It's the after the credits scene from the movie containing this scene.
https://youtu.be/9DocwBZyESU

From the context, I'd say the "idea" in the pic here is supposedly Marxism.

>>6787349
ah damnit, the video cut off before he makes his point

>>6787345
>You can replace Germans with women and Jews with men.
And women with "proletariat" and men with "bourgeoisie".

>>6787369
Nothing wrong with that tbh :^)

>>6782626
>not understanding Scorates' irony

>>6782567
triggered

>>6782766
how is 'patriarchy' a lie?
are lies necessarily bad?