/lit/ - Literature

>>6324486

>He reads genre fiction

>>6324495
>he believes in the spook "genre"
>he thinks that the greek myths and the Iliad and the Odyssé isn't the very template that superheroes was hewn from

>>6324486
But he has

>>6324495
Not every book has to be profound to be good, anon. Some people like to read just for fun.

>>6324501
The division between genre and literary fictions is a perfectly valid one.

>>6324501
Spook is our word now whitey.

>>6324529
I'm surprised that no one made this joke sooner.

>>6324526
>he thinks that condescending is smart
Ok, faglord! Time to pozz up your neg ass. If you think that the quadrology of the new sun is I killed de savages gudly, you're wrong.

Here are some expositions:

www sjgames com/pyramid/sample.html?id=469

www sfsite.com/fsf/2007/gwng0704.htm

Severian polished Terminus Est.

>he hasn't read Alan Moore

>>6324486
What're you gonna do about it?

Im Devil in the Forest right now.

It is my nature, my joy and my curse, to forget nothing. Every rattling chain and whistling wind, every sight, smell, and taste, remains changeless in my mind, and though I know it is not so with everyone, I cannot imagine what it can mean to be otherwise, as if one had slept when in fact an experience is merely remote.

>>6324865
There are plot elements throughout the series that occur directly as a result of Severian forgetting stuff.

I could never tell if the photographic memory boasts were meant to just be that, boasts on the part of an unreliable narrator, or if Wolfe had just fucked up.

>>6324897
Come on, give the author SOME credit...

>>6324902
Usually I heavily lean in favour of the author, but it seems like a very odd blunder for the character to make.

If Severian is insecure enough to fabricate that element of his intelligence, surely he wouldn't suddenly forget this fact further on in his memoirs. That detail should be even more important to him than it is to Wolfe.

>>6324926

He's not forgetting shit, he's just using that as an excuse and counting on most of his audience not giving a shit. Severian is a fucking liar and deliberately misrepresents a lot of the things that happen to him.

>>6324926
I'm not sold on the merit of this literary device of his either, mind you, but it's still obvious that it's intentional.

>>6324926
I think he gets overly excited and let's stuff slip as he gets more and more enthused by his writing (severian not Wolfe) like when he says he was never physical with thecla, then he later admits they were
Also what was severian talking about when he refers to thecla clawing at his eyes

>>6324897
Severian forgets nothing. His problem is he remembers too much, and of other people at times. Including other hims.

>>6324936
Very central to the story is how eating the dead transfers their memories, and multiple timelines exist on top of each other. How dumb are you you couldn't put those two ideas together?

>>6324961

He raped her. Possibly a lot

>>6325044
Everyone talks about a 2nd severian, is this what he evolves into when he becomes autarch or is it something that went completely over my head?

>>6325061
Time travel makes multiple instances of Severian. The Severian who wrote the book is the second one. The first failed, walked back in time, and is setting up events so Severian won't fail again.

Alright /lit/,

DFW or GW?

I honestly can't pick, it's like when kids ask their mom who's the favorite. . .

>>6325091
Shit that's rad, is that from botns? I remember time travel was touched on and stuff but I don't recall anything like that

>>6325054
It's unlikely that he raped Thecla. Compare his descriptions (or lack thereof) of their relationship to what he did with Jolenta on the boat.

>>6325115
Yes, it is. It's made pretty explicit at the end, with Severian even talking about it pretty frankly after consulting the mandragora in the Matachin Tower.

>>6325115
Actually time travel is happening contently, but its always subtext. Like at the end of Claw, Severian travels back hundreds of thousands of years, and probably switches places with a Severian from the past.

>>6325137
I just re read the end of book 4, he talks of dr talos returning the coin "a long time after the close of my narrative" is that severian 1 who is now a eunuch?

>>6325254
I am not sure I understand what you mean. The first Severian isn't the writer of the Book of the New Sun, the second Severian is. Everything that happens along the course of the book happens to the second Severian (as a result of the first Severian, ur-Severian) traveling along the corridors of time and altering events so he didn't fail. So the Severian that's given the coin at the end of the narrative is the second Severian.

>>6324897
He remembers events perfectly, but that doesn't mean he's able to recall exactly where he saw a certain object or sometimes person out of context.

When he was fighting with the avern he recognized the strings behind Agilus's mask, but he couldn't recall where he'd seen them.

>>6325369
To put it another way, he can review the footage in his mind, but only if he knows where to start rolling the film.

>>6325369
>>6325373
I might be misremembering but doesn't he also say something to the effect of his having trouble divorcing dreams from reality after a certain point? I think he says it early on (possibly when he admits he might be insane) but this entire thing could just be a confabulation on my part.

>>6325288
Can you provide the most overt examples of these alterations?

>>6324486
I tried to read this entire series but I just couldn't get into it. The premise of Severian being an executioner and the world itself interested me at first but I found it really boring and absurd as time went on and it didn't feel like anything was grounded in a cohesive manner.

I don't even think I finished the first book, but I remember some bits and pieces I found stupid:

* eating Thecla
* magic azelbo shit
* a gladiator style fight using a plant's leaves (?)

... that's actually all I really remember. It was not my cup of tea.

>Mur Lafferty, author of The Afterlife Series and Playing For Keeps, has kicked off an interesting discussion on reading classic SF and Fantasy on her blog:

>I’m not quite sure how to read classic SF. You know the stuff that was groundbreaking with its expanse of ideas that hadn’t even been considered yet? But it was also the stuff that was very likely sexist, had cardboard characters, was completely lacking women or POC, used what we consider now to be hack tools (eg “looking in a mirror to describe the protag”), and may have protags that are total jerks.

>I couldn’t finish The Stars My Destination, The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever or the Book of the New Sun. I can’t root for a rapist protagonist. And I really wanted to read Stars and New Sun.

Severian is a torturer and executioner. That's his whole thing. And the problem is that this vile bastard who fucking tortures people with a complete sense of detachment AS HIS OCCUPATION raped someone through an unreliable narrator recollection

The problem is rape. Not the torture, the murder, etc, that shit is okay.

>>6327334
I bet this ho never read Lolita.

>>6327334
The problem is that it reads like the wank fantasies of some edgy adolescent neckbeard.

>>6327296
you found them stupid because they havent been put into the context of the rest of the book yet

>>6327296
also
>didnt finish the first book

>>6327353
Try reading the book first.

If you'd read even the first 10 pages you would have known that it's the furthest from 'wank fantasies' -- Severian is a sad, abused child with problems and issues. This point is driven into your skull in like the very first chapter of the novel.

>>6327334
This woman is a fucking idiot if she can't handle an unsavory protagonist. It makes me wonder how she's ever managed to read fiction at all. It's not like there are a TON of books about perfect choir boys.

>>6327208
That is the single greatest image I've ever seen.

>>6327334
Anyone that uses the term "POC" without irony should just be ignored.

>>6328139
The term "POC" sounds racist as hell to me. If I referred to my token black friend as a POC he would be all "Ay yo bix nood what da fuck you call me?"

>>6327978
>It's not like there are a TON of books about perfect choir boys.

There are in YA trash

>>6328139
>POC
>pots
>putz

more like meme wolf

>>6328173
It is racist. Anti-racists are more racist than racists.

>>6327334

>>6328128
It's all yours, friend

Is knowledge of New Sun required for Long Sun and Short Sun? I mean, I've read New Sun (not Urth, though), but it's been over a decade and I remember little of the details. Instead of re-reading, I'd like to go read Long Sun, and possibly Short Sun from there.

I'm currently reading Shadow of The Torturer.

>>6328341
I will be shoot into space dead with it. Mahalo.

>>6328360
Not required but if you remember Typhon you'll get some extra value out of Long Sun.

Short Sun is very weird and it actually does tie into New Sun slightly near the end but it's still not a requirement to have read it.

>>6328360
Long Sun no, Short Sun yes. You can understand Short Sun quite well without rereading New Sun, if anything just a few little details will be missed.

The most I think about it, Long Sun is almost better than New Sun. New Sun is about one dude, while Long Sun is about a whole culture.

>>6328387
It's my first effort, not sure who to do next though
>>6328397
New Sun has a much more interesting culture though, and Severian's a pretty complicated dude. Also I prefer the writing style of New Sun

>>6327208
Saved.

>>6328397
>>6328405
Severian's not much of a people person. Silk is a god-tier politician without even trying.

>>6328416
And do you enjoy the company of people-persons? I find them amongst the most boring, at least in terms of what they actually have to say

>>6328405
>not sure who to do next though

>>6328422
I would absolutely play space basketball with Silk.

Silk for Caldé.

>>6328416
Severian is generally a good guy, he's likeable once you understand his context. Silk is a guy on a downward non-stop spiral towards evil and douchbaggery.

>>6328429
>Severian is generally a good guy

my sides have left Urth and are traveling through the corridors of time.

>>6328396
>>6328397
Thanks guys. I don't remember Typhon, but if it's about the small(ish) details, I'm not too bothered if I don't have New Sun fresh in my mind.

>>6328424
I'll consider it - will probably end up doing Typhon though, somehow
>>6328425
> Not carrying Terminus Est in exchange for time with Severian's harem of women
>>6328435
The two headed man that he meets in the mountains, book three
>>6328431
kek

How's his book "There are Doors"?

>>6328429
> Silk is a guy on a downward non-stop spiral towards evil and douchbaggery.

Did we read the same book?

>>6328458
Fucking awful. His only dud. I think it was his attempt at a romance novel, or something.

>>6327208
Alterations? Like what separates the second Severian from the first? All that we're told is found in chapter 38 (titled Resurrection) in the Citadel of the Autarch. All we really know for sure is the first Severian failed, was emasculated, and then traveled the corridors of time to alter some events. The only event I recall at the moment that's mentioned pretty explicitly is the absence of the Claw of the Conciliator.

>>6327296
You definitely finished the first book if you know about Thecla being eaten. You really need to have finished the other three though to have any semblance of an educated opinion on the many strange events that occur.

>>6328360
Nah man Long Sun and Short Sun are pretty divorced from New Sun despite taking place in the same universe. Also don't read Urth of the New Sun, it's largely useless and a waste of time.

>>6328429
He's not generally a good guy. We're given an objective view of his personality from Eata in the short story The Map and he's mostly a douche, even five years into his reign as Autarch. I'll admit he paints himself as a fairly decent guy, but who wouldn't in his case?

>>6328458
It's a book about how it's good to be a neckbeard shut in and avoid women. That might sound fun but it's really awful and not worth reading. Likewise, Pandora by Holly Hollander and Castleview are also pretty mediocre.

>>6328546
Its not that There Are Doors dude is a neckbeard, just below average person. Neckbeards think they are above average.

>>6328586
You're right. I didn't want to get into too long of a description of Green so I generalized and compared him to something we'd all know.

>>6328435
He's the one generally referred to as Frieza around here.

>>6328653
And that's another things, its super lame he was named at all. And it was so late in the book. Should have just let him nameless.

>>6328659
I agree. It's such a meaningless name, too, like I don't know what Wolfe was trying to do with giving him it. It is nice not having to refer to him as the main character of There Are Doors or something equally distant, though.

>>6328435
he's a former ruler of urth, has two heads, was pretty much super hitler satan from space
overall fairly minor in new sun and not much bigger in long sun

>>6325288
>All we really know for sure is the first Severian failed, was emasculated, and then traveled the corridors of time to alter some events.

Is there something that says it for sure? Because my understand has always been that the Severian who traveled the corridors of time was just the Severian who wrote the BoNS in the future, after he met Tzadkiel and was sent back on Urth on a different time.

>>6328731
We know for sure (as sure as we can be with Severian, anyway) that there was a Severian, without the Claw, who after journeying to Yesod was returned to a time not his own and became a walker of the corridors of time. That is what he says in the final chapter of Citadel of the Autarch.
I'm merely concluding that he failed because he didn't have the Claw at that time, which was basically the symbol of his office as New Sun, despite it most likely being nothing more than a thorn in a gem.
That all being as it is, Severian also says that he's not the only one who fiddled with his own timeline. He says as much in the same chapter, that others went back to the beginning of his life and changed things.

>tfw I read Book of the New Sun twice, and half of Urth of the New Sun, and the series still makes 0 sense

>>6328786
Why does it make zero sense?
Have you finished Urth of the New Sun at least once? The third act is really the only redeeming part of it.

>>6328801

Urth was boring as fuck

>>6328805

I disagree. I think it provided a much needed closure, although it sure took its sweet time getting there.

So I have read BOTNS plus Urth and I have The Fifth Head Of Cerberus waiting on my kobo.

Any other Wolfe works worth reading?

>>6328805
I agree. Except the third act, that part's great.

>>6328816
I also agree with this. Even if I know what happens and roughly how it happens, I still always finish the Book of the New Sun thinking it lacks a certain element of closure, always wanting more. And the third part of Urth works really well for that.

>>6328821
The first two Latro books, the Book of the Long Sun and the Book of the Short Sun, his many short story collections (particularly Endangered Species and the Island of Doctor Death and Other Stories and Other Stories), Peace, The Wizard-Knight.

>>6328821
The Electric Kool-Aid Acid Test and Look Homeward, Angel

>>6328816

Now I wish I finished it. I have a whole love hate relationship with the whole series

>>6328838
>The first two Latro books
Is Sidon shit?

>>6328935
Eh, not really. It just doesn't live up to the first two and it's not much of a concluding volume. I wish he had wrote the third and presumably final book immediately after the second but for whatever reason was unable to do so. I think it had something to do with the first two not selling well and his publisher pretty much demanding Urth of the New Sun be written.

>>6328951
Its sorta sad that Wolfe is a genre writer. He should be treated with more respect. No one cares how Pynchon's books sell. The man should have written just want he wanted to write, and publishers should have been happy for the privilege to print the work of such a great author.

>>6328972
>Its sorta sad that Wolfe is a genre writer.

No, the sad thing is that this artificial distinction is still widely followed and accepted. "Genre" and "literary", spare me. There are only good books and bad books.

>>6328979

but Wolfe isn't that good

>>6328980
He is, he bloody amazing.

>>6328972
I'm fine with him being labelled as a genre writer and with him actually being one. I'm annoyed that people write him off based on that classification, though.

>>6328816
I don't think it was much needed, in fact I almost perfer that it wasn't there, not because it isn't good, but because the open ending of TNS was simply wonderful.

>>6329022

You like when key plot elements are not explained?

>>6329029
All key plot elements were explained, you just needed to pay close attention.

>>6329029
Give some examples of key plot elements that were not explained.

>>6324526
>The division between genre and literary fictions is a perfectly valid one.
But its not

>>6329064
Yeah, I don't really understand it. All literature can be placed into a genre (realism, romanticism, sf, fantasy). Good/bad book is on the other hand a valid division.

>>6324897
Its an unreliable narrator
>or if wolfe had just fuckedup
Tautological impossibility

>>6329070
Wolfe is the kind of writer that makes it clear he knows what he is doing, at least that's what I see in him.

>>6325091
Also there are mirror image reactions because he died in the lake as a child

>>6329075
He did? Really? I know that he died in Urth a few times, but as a child? Every GW thread reveals a few new details.

>>6329036
>>6329039

>Why did he have powers?
>Why did they work sometimes and other times they didn't?
>The claw was established as a very important stone then when he gave it to the pelerines nobody cared.

There are probably others but it has been a while since I read it.

>>6324897

There is a passage where Severian says he forgot something, so I always took the "Perfect Memory" as meaning that because he took the memory of the Autarchs that he had a perfect memory

>>6329079

Most people think he drowned at the beginning of the book when he goes to the river, or whatever that was. BotNS is more fun to talk about than it is to read

>>6329073
He makes mistakes now and again. I'm not sure there are too many within the Book of the New Sun itself but there's certainly a few continuity errors concerning the short story The Map and the Urth of the New Sun.

>>6329075
I've seen this said before but I'm not sure I believe it. The only evidence for his death in the river (surely you mean Gyoll and not the Lake of Birds) is the skull at the bottom. Juturna tells him she pushed him upwards before he died.

>>6327334
Thomas covenant is shit tier

Stars My Destination is absolute grade-a prime quality SF to not read it is a crime

Just because a character does a bad thing does not mean it is endorsed, gee I dunno maybe part of them being a bad person?

>>6328360
Not for long sun
Not really for short sun

In long sun it allows you to figure out quicker who the god they all worship
In short sun they travel to Urth towards the end and meet a certain child apprentice briefly

>>6329070
In Castle of Days Gene defines a bunch of words that appear in New Sun, and gets to this one:
>ARTELLOS I suspect that this is a typographical error, and the word should be martellos. If that is incorrect, I do not know what Severian meant.
I laughed.

>>6328951
>Its not much of a concluding volume
Because wolfe has said he might write a forth, in which Latro goes to South America with Phonecians

>>6329081
>Why did he have powers?
There's a lot of misdirection about this topic in the book. If it's explained in the text why he's the New Sun (aside from being chosen for his perfect memory), I've long forgotten where. I'll look through the closing pages of Citadel again pretty soon and answer in more detail if (when?) I find something.
>Why did they work sometimes and other times they didn't.
He explains this in the final book, when speaking with Ava while in the lazaret. He says that people who aren't wholly human cannot be healed. See Jonas and Jolenta.
>The claw was established as a very important stone then when he gave it to the pelerines nobody cared
When he gave it to them it was broken, leaving only the Claw within. They had been in possession of it for so long that they forgot there was an actual claw/thorn within, thinking it merely a flaw in the gem.

>BotNS is more fun to talk about than it is to read
I do not agree.

>>6329121
Well then he better get on it, he looks like an ancient walrus

> BotNS is more fun to talk about than it is to read
Certainly not, I've read it twice and there is no book that I found so engaging and interesting to read.

>>6329070

>muh unreliable narrator?

People always spout this off as it automatically makes it a great piece of literature, but what does it add to the story? In Lolita is makes us sympathise with a monster. In Pale Fire it completely changes everything we just read and gives us insight into the mindset of the narrator.


In Book of the New Sun Severin just lies sometimes. Doesn't give much insight into his character. Doesn't change our perspective on the world. Having an unreliable narrator isn't inherently good so what does it add to Book of the New Sun?


I have brought this up in a number of threads, but have never gotten a response.

>>6329155
>In Lolita is makes us sympathise with a monster.
The exact same thing can be said for the New Sun lol.
But Lolita is so soulless and empty, it's not near The New Sun in terms of how good it is.
It brings an element of mistery, it brings Severian as a more real character. So that's two things. And it gives plenty of insight and does change the perspective.

>>6329146
>>6329132

I think the last 2 books were pretty weak With the exception being the Alazebo in the mountains, which is one of the most memorable scenes I have ever read. It is just 400 ish pages of him wandering with no focus. There were a few highlights, like the one I mentioned above, but for the most part it is pretty dull.

First half of the series is god-tier
Second half of the series is shit-tier

>>6329155
I can't speak for new sun but have you read Peace? It added a lot there.

>>6329177
>But Lolita is so soulless and empty, it's not near The New Sun in terms of how good it is.

The brain-amputated Wolfe fanboys on this board are getting ridiculous

>>6329177

>The exact same thing can be said for the New Sun lol.
He tortures and kills people for a living.

>And it gives plenty of insight and does change the perspective
Then explain

>But Lolita is so soulless and empty, it's not near The New Sun in terms of how good it is.
If you are trying to troll it is working

>>6329183
I think the focus was on Severian himself, which is one of thie things that made it such a thing to read. Also shit tier? Seriously?

>>6329194
Brain amputatred Nabokov fanboys on this board are getting ridiculous.

>>6329199

I thought Severian was boring. The world was the best part of the series. The first half at least had a semblance of a plot to make things interesting (Not that books need to be plot driven)

>>6329155
Where does he lie with intent to mislead? People throw around that accusation a lot but it seems pretty baseless, except for maybe one or two instances. Severian (not Severin) omits things, yes. He avoids talking about things, yes. He admits to having difficulty discerning certain memories from dreams. He confused details (like who Vodalus hands the pistol to in the cemetery). He even admits to being possibly insane.

His omissions (because that's what most them are) also serve a purpose in the setting up of the narrative. If he told us straight out that Baldanders left him after the commotion at the Piteous Gate to go converse with the undines we'd already know that he's an evil mad scientist giant that wants to become a fish god.

His confusing of details adds to the level of uncertainty in the text. Wolfe's use of sometimes archaic words to describe and approximate the strangeness of Severian's world is where this is important. Words like exultant and barbican are used differently than we use them. As such, we don't really know what they are for certain and Severian's muddling of details works alongside this.

Also, his unreliability grounds him as a character. It shows him as an insecure and amoral adolescent.

>>6329067
It's just another ultimately arbitrary effort at descriptive division. It's not always accurate but most people know what you mean and, at least until recently, most people who approach literature 'seriously' (i.e. looking for something beyound entertainment) find it convenient enough to keep alive. It has a functional value in certain communities and that's all you can and should expect of sweeping generalizations.

>>6329198
>Then explain
Severain has more layers as a character. It for example means he is ashamed of his actions.
>He tortures and kills people for a living.
Humbert lusts for 14 year old girls.
>If you are trying to troll it is working
I think that Lolita is a book that has nothing to offer outside of the language.

>>6329207
Each to his own I guess. Severian was distant, but I can't see him as boring. And the plot was stronger in the 3th and 4th book imo.

>>6329183
>>6329207
I enjoyed the two final books quite a lot. In fact, the fourth volume was my favorite of them all (tied maybe with Claw). The third book is centered around his traveling north to join the army and get killed. The fourth is his time in the army and then his return, after having backed into the throne. Those story lines seem to me as fleshed out as the story lines of the first two volumes. Why did you think Severian was boring?

>>6329232
[Spoiler?]I loved the stories told when he was in the hospital, they are great on themselves, but they also add so much depth to the world[Spoiler?]

>>6329243
I loved them too. All of the stories told over the course of the book are great.

>>6329209

>Where does he lie with intent to mislead?

I think he exaggerates his relationship with women. I don't think his and Theclas relationship was as romantic as he implied and I remember one scene in particular where it is implied he raped Jolenta(Not exactly sure if it was her or one of the other girls).

>His omissions (because that's what most them are) also serve a purpose in the setting up of the narrative. If he told us straight out that Baldanders left him after the commotion at the Piteous Gate to go converse with the undines we'd already know that he's an evil mad scientist giant that wants to become a fish god.

Well isn't that just story telling 101? It would be starting a joke with the punchline.

>Also, his unreliability grounds him as a character. It shows him as an insecure and amoral adolescent.

I guess it gives us insight into the character, but I just don't see it as that important. Most people around here act like it completely changes everything.

>>6329220

>He tortures and kills people for a living.
>Humbert lusts for 14 year old girls.

You got me there. I just think Severian is a boring character, where as Humbert has some more depth.

>>6329232
He just seems dull. To me he seems more of an empty character so the reader can insert himself into the world

>>6329112
>Several [of these stories] are humorous, and I have been told often enough that I have a sense of humor that makes strong men faint and women reach for weapons; I should have known better than to include those, but now it is too late.

>>6329258
Thecla at one point (after she's been swimming in the head of Severian for some time) refers to him as her boy lover. That's the only detail I recall that confirms their relationship though surely she saw him as such because she was a prisoner slowly descending into madness. At least that's my take on it. He milks the details over the course of the work, omitting them for whatever reason, but they're eventually all there. Including that strange bit about her attempting to claw his eyes out. He does rape Jolenta and it's pretty clearly rape though it is true he doesn't call it as such. Most of his sexual encounters are colored with violence, like Jolenta or the khaibit of Thecla.

It is indeed storytelling 101, I just wanted to make sure we were both on the same ground with some of the details needing to be omitted to tell a good story.

I think it gives insight to him but I also agree it's not too important as far as his personality goes. He' defined by other, much more apparent things, like his slow shedding of his torturer history and the reconciliation of his history of destruction with his future of rebirth. I think it changes quite a lot (like how we can't be certain of just what things are) but I am also tired of people saying it as if it suddenly elevates the book, as if all of the other details that make it great are somehow left to linger in the shadow of his supposed lies.

>>6329258
I keep forgetting to mention this but I want to before the thread dies.

At times, Severian is incredibly stupid. He has a religious epiphany on a beach directly after he's been told how the hierodules have been manipulating him this entire time. He has trouble connecting the dots between the vast amount of information rattling around in his head. He thinks the people in the Bear Tower marry their animals (maybe they do, though I doubt it) probably because of the phrase animal husbandry. He mistakes an astronaut for a warrior in armor. He doesn't understand what Jonas means when he says he's a sailor. I'm forgetting a few things.

>>6328979
That is what I meant. Wolfe writes whatever he wants, and its literature because Wolfe wrote it.

>>6329104
If anything Long and Short Sun explain New Sun. And some random stuff in the Whorl is explained by New Sun. Like Mucor's powers are certainly accessing the Corridors of Time.

>>6329144
Scientists are already working on putting his head onto Shaquille O'Neal's body.

I tried to read it when I was a kid but it bored me so I went back to read Lord of the Rings.

Only tangentially related, but is there any good fanart or just art of BotNS besides the covers?

>>6329468
You should read it again. But don't read anything more in this thread because there's spoilers everywhere.

>>6329469
No most art for the Book of the New Sun is shit.

>>6329469
Only good art I found.

>>6329454
The thing that surprised me is that a LOT of Short Sun is seemingly connected to 5th Head of Cerberus. Blue and Green and St. Ann and St. Croix, the Abos and the Inhumi, clones, and other stuff.

>>6329469
Well, there's this...

>>6329490
>>6329512
>>6329520

Got this, I quite like it

I remember seeing a very impressionist picture of Severian sitting against a gravestone, but never saved it. Anyone have it?

>>6329261
Wolfe's got such a silly, pugnacious attitude. I love it!

>>6329340
>tfw you found the religious epiphany incredibly moving

I get that it was meant to show how Severian misses the point a lot, but it was also beautiful.

>>6329537
I like that picture a lot. If I recall, it's based on a passage in the text. The picture you're describing is on deviantart somewhere I think, at least that's where I saw it linked from a while ago. I'll see if I can find it.

>>6329699
Oh I found it moving as fuck too. It's probably my favorite passage from the entire work.

>>6329537
>>6329711
This is the picture I think.
And this is the passage that I think the picture you posted is based on:
"Time itself is a thing, so it seems to me, that stands solidly like a fence of iron palings with its endless row of years; and we flow past like Gyoll, on our way to a sea from which we shall return only as rain."

>>6329724
Huh, I'm working through the Confessions at the moment and that line (which I definitely remember reading) strikes me as very Augustinian. Augustine, after all, teaches that 'past' and 'future' are merely observational qualities in the human mind, and that time in reality is one great present.

>>6329752
That's really interesting. Whenever I'm at the book store I always eye the many copies of the Confessions. I've planned on reading it for a while and I'll probably start soon now because of that.

>>6329724
Yep, exactly the one one I was thinking of, thanks.

Innovation Publishing began to adapt The Shadow of the Torturer in the early 90s but it closed down before it was finished

>>6329782

>>6329787

>>6329782
It's a shame it went unfinished. The art was really amazing and captured the broken beauty of Urth really well.

The only thing I didn't like, and it's a very minor quibble, was that they changed Thecla's hair color.

I'm forgetting where it ended. Was it just before they entered the Botanic Gardens?

I suppose I'll soon find out.

>>6329794

>>6329801

>>6329806

>>6329809

>>6329840

>>6329872
Love how that art style makes everyone look like a corpse.

>>6329872
>that portrait was suppose to be of an astronaut

oh fuck

>>6329872

>>6329890
>a knight in white armor with a gold helmet standing on the moon
its not hard

>>6329890
severian pls

>>6329900
>>6329908

Shit man I dunno. That part was early enough in the book where the setting/time period still wasn't quite clear, and I just thought it was supposed to be a portrait of a soldier on a distant world that was an early clue of the story taking place in the far future.

>>6329957
It's okay friend, the fact that Vodalus fired a pistol in the graveyard during the very first chapter flew completely over my head, as his shot did Severian's. Likewise, it wasn't until the first reread where I discovered that the Matachin Tower was a rocket ship despite it being abundantly clear.

>>6330003
"former structures propulsion chamber"

>>6330166
Yeah. I started it thinking it was fantasy. I finished it knowing otherwise of course but I had already forgotten most of the minutiae of the beginning chapters by that point.

>>6328139
Absolutely! And what about the people who are neither white nor black? Such as asians? And hasn't race mixing occured to her? And what if a person is black but doesn't behave "black"?

>>6324486
didnt this gene wolf fellow just die a couple weeks ago

>>6330645
Nope! He's alive.

You guys should be aware that the actual real life mental condition that give a perfect memory also makes it extremely difficult to connect the dots and Understand what theyve seen, since they have no filter. In fact im pretty sure I read this aspect of Severian was based on a character from another author, Borges I think?

>>6330645
Youre thinking of Terry Pratchett who used to be /lit/s other pet fantasy author until /mu/ invaded, so Its understandable that youd confuse the two.

>>6330778
Pratchett was never loved here.

>>6329079
I can't remember exactly but I'm pretty sure there's an idea that severian is actually a simulation, like the sort created by the hirodules in their spaceships

>>6330655
NOT FOR LONG

Gene Wolfe threads are always so good, always much higher quAlity with less shit posting than the rest of /lit/, I just read the whole thread, good job guys

>>6331185
This time we got the best feels img on /lit/

>>6331035
>being this a pleb

>>6331035
Been here since fall 2010 dont try your revisionist history with me shitposter

>>6330763
Borges had written a story about a man with an eidictic memory, so that seems likely

The book of new sun is boring.

It is written in boring prose. The characters do not come to life. It fails to captivate.

As a piece of storytelling it is worthless. Garbage.

People only like it because they feel that by saying that they like it they are showing that they are clever.

A song of Ice and Fire or Dune are worth much , much more as pieces of fiction.

>>6331903
filtered.

>>6331903
Your attempts at rusing literally made me fall asleep from boredom.

>>6331907
I change my tripcode regularly so good going, retard

>>6331903
>tfw having mostly the same opinion as an obvious troll

>>6331903
>captivate
>come to life
>prose
What are you, a high school art teacher? Come on. At least base your criticism on something substantial instead od using the most vague and subjective phrases possible thats pathetic dude. The rest of your post is pure bait too. Practice your trolling on a retarded board like /v/ or /a/ then come back when you have some actual skill. Dropping the trip would also help because it would make it less blatantly obvious.

>>6329340
>He mistakes an astronaut for a warrior in armor.

This isn't unreasonable at all for a guy in Severian's position though, he has never before seen an astronaut or even had any cause to think about why there might once have been astronauts. And his description isn't technically wrong either, a space suit is a form of highly specialized armor and most astronauts are military officers at least in name.

>>6328546
I assumed that we would be able to see the first Severian in the narrative, even just a little bit. Seems like a Wolfish thing to do

>>6324495
>he thinks something other than good and bad "literature" exists
Look at this blue pill cuckfag and laugh!

>>6331903
>ASOIAF
Thanks for the laugh.

>>6332099
i havent really got a point with this but maybe the child severian is of significance? also whos severians sister? and was dorcas his grandmother?

Why also did he act like he'd already written much about Valeria in Urth? That evidence of more time fuckery?

>>6332450
... Fuck, I bet it is. That's why Valeria barely shows up in New Sun but we're meant to believe we already know so much about her. Severian wrote about her in another timeline already.

It's like how Borges loved to write about books that don't exist. Severian is referring to writing that doesn't exist in this timeline.

>>6332312
I believe little Severian was just there to show that Severian had a twin somewhere. Michael Andre Driussi wrote an essay talking about all of the thresholds Severian crosses in the course of the narrative, so there's the fatherhood threshold angle too.

They were also both adopted by torturers. Didn't think of that until now.

Severian's sister is Merryn. If I recall, it is confirmed in The Book of the Short Sun and Gene Wolfe has mentioned it in an interview before.

And yes, Dorcas was his grandmother.

>>6332450
Someone (Robert Borski I think, author of quite a few nebulous claims concerning the book) believes the Atrium of Time to be frozen in time. He also claims Valeria is related to Severian by blood, like his great grandmother or something, I forget. So if there is time fuckery related to Valeria, it probably has to do with that.

That being said, I don't think there are many clues about Valeria in either the Book of the New Sun or Urth. She's just kind of a blank slate and I've thought that Gene Wolfe meant to do more with her but never did.

>>6332484
its been a while since i read the book, who was merryn?

>>6332711
A woman in the Witches Tower. She is attending the Cumaean in the ruins of the stone town as they attempt to wrestle down Apu Punchau with Hildegrin.

>>6332803
oh yeah, i dont think i fully understood the significance of that scene, can anyone explain to me briefly what its purpose was

also what was all the shit with abaia and stuff, i read these books a while ago and all the different plot points and concepts have become clouded in my memory

Has anyone here read any of the 'companion' books, like Solar Labyrinth, Lexicon Urthus, Castle of Days, or Plan(e)t engineering?

>>6332907
Hildegrin traveled to the stone town while working for the rebel Vodalus, who is against the coming of the New Sun. The Cumaean is an ancient witch who lives in the Botanic Gardens of Nessus. Hildegrin and the Cumaean go to the stone town is summon Apu Punchau. Hildegrin is there to kill this figure, whose name Severian translates as the Head of Day, because Apu Punchau is actually Severian after he becomes the New Sun and travels around time. Apu Punchau explodes after grappling with Severian, as a result of two versions of the same person at different points in history coming into contact. Hildegrin is killed, Jolenta (who was sick and already dying at the time) finally expires, and the Cumaean and Merryn are no where to be seen.

Abaia, Erebus, Juturna, Ouroboros, and all the rest of the megatherians are great creature-things from beyond Urth. We know this because of a throw away remark from Juturna while she speaks with Severian and says they used to swim among the stars. They do not want the coming of the New Sun because it will kill them. They seduce Vodalus with delusions of grandeur, bringing back the glory of Urth's previous space-faring days, and convince him to combat the Commonwealth, whose autarch is the candidate for the New Sun.

>>6332962
I've those all except the last one.

>>6332995
Which ones would you reccomend? I'm probably going to read Castle of Days once I finish Sword and Citadel, but are Lexicon Urthus and Solar Labyrinth worth the read?

>>6333011
Castle of Days and Lexicon Urthus are the best of the lot, I think.

Castle of Days is full of information pertaining to the creation of the first two volumes of the Book of the New Sun. The short stories in it are good too and some of them are otherwise difficult to find. Plus some of the essays paint a pretty clear view of Wolfe himself.

Lexicon Urthus is pretty invaluable. There are parts I don't agree with in it, there are parts where Michael Andre Driussi is wrong, but it's largely a very informative book for anyone wanting to learn about the Book of the New Sun.

I'd say stay clear of Solar Labyrinth but it's worth reading for a laugh I guess. Some of Borski's ideas are just so ridiculous. There are a few gems here and there but they're largely buried in a miasma of mental gymnastics.

>>6332995
fuck dude, thats wild, i might read this again pretty soon, honestly the more you know about wolfes work the more incredible it becomes

>>6329155
All the places that he is unreliable tells us a lot of his character, and hints at the truth of the story. It is both fleshing out the character and making the story engaging and multi daceted

>>6333056
Alright, I'll definitely read those. Might read the essays in Castle before I start Sword. Thanks

>>6333140
Yeah he's definitely an author worth rereading. There are so many little things he adds that make it all so great.

>>6333241
You could do that too. The essays came out before Sword did, so Wolfe doesn't talk about anything in the concluding two volumes.

>>6324486
The Shadow of the Torturer is hands down, the worst fantasy book i read in last 2 years, and i read some crappy stuff

I have never saw a book that has no purpose no point, no structure, no overarching plot no nothing, but here, here i saw an author shit out a, incoherent narrative as he went along.

Shit happens: the book

Fuck who ever told me to check it out.
If rest of Wolfe books are just as bad i will be a happy man if i never have any contact with anything done by him again.

>>6333864
The first book isn't a complete novel... How droolingly stupid are you?

>>6333864
why do you think you can have an educated opinion of a work when you haven't finished the entirety of it?

tBoNS is split into four volumes, how dense do you have to be to expect the understand everything about the first without having read the remaining three?

>>6333864
Perfect entry for the next 1 star reviews thread

>>6333864

>>6333905
>>6333919
Jesus, now that some delusion
>duur, the fourth book will completely make up for the 30 hours or more you waste so far
Even if the second one would be some fucking mind blowing masterpiece that will change my life for ever it still wouldnt change the fact Shadow of the torturer was so bad it made me wonder why do i even come here.

I dotn care about the entirety.
I care about how badly written the introduction to this series is, helps put some perspective into why so many people hate fantasy books.

>>6333984
>that sperging rage
did we hurt your feelings?
it's clear you're too stupid to understand the book of the new sun in the first place
go cry somewhere else about your shitty attention span

>>6333984
Your first bait was pretty good but this doesn't hold, unfortunately. You're not leaving any room for your character to be credible, see:
>why so many people hate fantasy books.
With this you're setting yourself away from the fantasy reader archetype; on the other hand, gen fic readers are stereotypically all over books in which nothing happens - not that you could pretend to be one with that faux-illiterate lingo. Thriller readers don't come on 4chan, so your persona doesn't make sense. More roleplaying practice is what you need.

>>6334039
My bad, seems someone bit anyway. Oh well, lit always was a dumb one

>>6334051
>hurr /lit/ made me feel stupid
>i know, i'll just say i was kidding

>>6334039
Cant tell if ironic or a tumblr poster,

>>6334113
Didn't say I was kidding, I said I was wrong. (I did, however, say YOU were stupid - to which I could now more specifically add something about reading comprehension, but I'm not going to since you might take it as a compliment)

>>6334051
>>6334113
>>6334039
You better be samefagging since i stand by what i wrote in
>>6333984

Anyway, yeah, fuck this author.