/lit/ - Literature

(I should add, if you think you've taken some other path and our outside of these three, you're completely wrong an really still in one)

>>6175536
how do you see each one?

>Marxism

Marxism is for edgy college students who sincerely think they understand the world

>>6175536
Marxism took me very far in my studies, without it I'd certainly be an obamabot, but I don't identify as a Marxist anymore.

>>6175548
It's the journey, not the destination. Marxism creates intolerable college students but it gets them started on advanced political critique, and gives them the tools to seriously start analyzing politics.

>>6175548
It's hard not to be edgy when you've just learned how the world really works.

Marxism

Probably George F Gilder, but Engel's Origins mostly started me down that path. Bukharin was very helpful, as was Epicurus.

>>6175541

Marxism - self actualizing with regards to our species-being (gattungswesen) with collective action in the material world.

Aestheticism ~ should be self-explanatory

Zen - life = dukkha, neglecting the material world altogether, realizing emptiness ('reference' if you're derrida). killing all desire.

>>6175548
Understanding Marxism in the first place would be a great requirement to be called a Marxist.

Don't misunderstand, just because Marx said some feminist shit along the lines of "We can measure how socialism is by looking at the female social status", that doesn't mean he wanted everyone to be cucks with no individuality.

Marxism has some merits and is honestly a noble and admirable thought, even though it's incompatible with human nature. No need to disrespect it.

>>6175536
Aestheticism is the only true way to live life if you're an artist.

>>6175557
what do you read past Capital for advanced political critique btw?

>>6175574
What about egoism?

>>6175576
>that doesn't mean he wanted everyone to be cucks with no individuality.
>Thus when monogamous marriage first makes its appearance in history, it is not as the reconciliation of man and woman, still less as the highest form of such a reconciliation. Quite the contrary. Monogamous marriage comes on the scene as the subjugation of the one sex by the other; it announces a struggle between the sexes unknown throughout the whole previous prehistoric period. In an old unpublished manuscript, written by Marx and myself in 1846, I find the words: “The first division of labor is that between man and woman for the propagation of children.” And today I can add: The first class opposition that appears in history coincides with the development of the antagonism between man and woman in monogamous marriage, and the first class oppression coincides with that of the female sex by the male.
-Engels

>>6175586
...go on

Marxism
Voluntary egoism
Zen

There's nothing patrician about being purely an aesthete, that's like being one of the characters in American Psycho, it's extremely vapid.

>>6175544
This.

>>6175589
Extreme circumstances create extreme views.

Do you think Engels would have written such a thing had he been born today? True, he keeps babbling about how women are always the victim and all, but he leads a noble fight.

You can't change extreme oppression with little opposition, you need extreme opposition as well. Not only did Lenin give women a ton of women rights later on in the name of Marxism, but he also destroyed all social discrimination.

He made the Soviet Union the first country to allow gay marriage and he forbid racism against foreigners. While communism may has some bad ideas like forcing the collectivization of farm lands, stealing property and lands from owners, stripping a man of most of his rights and freedoms, etc. It has also sheds some positive light such as the equality of everybody in society. This means no discrimination between races, gender and social standing. This quality of Marxism certainly is a must for modern societies.

>>6175616
Oh fuck excuse for my typos. My near monitor screen is giving me a headache, too damn big.

>>6175581
Depends on the area. Generally just Keynes and post Keynesians for Macro-economics, which forms the basis of everything else.

>>6175616
>he also destroyed all social discrimination.
kek like fuck he did. He tried to, that doesn't mean he came even close. We have more female representatives in contemporary U.S. than the USSR had

>>6175616
>Do you think Engels would have written such a thing had he been born today
Yes? Even Veblen ("Virtually the whole range of industrial employments is an outgrowth of what is classed as woman's work in the primitive barbarian community.") says class struggle is an outgrowth of oppression of women.

>>6175674

Gender oppression is the first distinct instance of class society emerging, that doesn't make class struggle an outgrowth of gender oppression.

>>6175536

What a contrived, stupid question. You get +1 point for having three choices rather than the usual 'X vs Y' thread, but -100 for asking an unproductive question.


I strongly discourage other /lit/izens from responding to garbage-tier threads like this.

sage

>>6175716
so pick one of the three then. or are you special?

>>6175793
fine, I pick marxism only because the others are retarded

>>6175796
honestly u identifying with 'marxism' b/c you think the other two huge categories (with million of people in them) can be dismissed as 'retarded' is pretty interesting..... just saying

>>6175796
good troll (and not me)

>>6175793

my problem with these threads is that they do not EVER clarify a criteria. and nobody bothers too in subsequent posts. it's perfectly fine to say "what theory do you think has better ethical implications? Zen or Marxism?"

it's a waste of time to ask "pick one of these three obliquely related things."

>>6175805
if you've put serious study into all three, or one of the three, they are extremely clear categories with very specific leaders, authors, and ideas. it is a way of diviing people in a more interesting way than gender or class etc tbh

>>6175812
>you've put serious study into all three

Nobody on this board

>or one of the three,

Nobody on this board

> they are extremely clear categories with very specific leaders, authors, and ideas

This should be obvious to any given child

>it is a way of diviing people in a more interesting way than gender or class etc tbh

No, it's a way of facilitating meaningless 4chan-tier discussion (like we're having now) about nothing in particular.

>>6175816
Well okay fine, what do you wanna spend time doing on 4chan?

>>6175827

I'm just here for the feels, bro. They're the only redeeming feature of this god-forsaken web community.

>>6175536
I choose Epicureanism, OP.

In which of your categories does that fit?

My god this board is utter diarrhea.

>>6175589
Is there something wrong here?

>>6175576
You dont know anything about marxism if your still perpetuating the human nature bs. Youre worse than the people who blatantly attack it with hate.

>>6175576
>Being an anti-feminist Marxist

What's the fucking point?

>>6175844
>how to spot someone under 4 years
Learn to browse and post threads newfaggot

>>6175589

That's it folks, show's over. /lit/ has become /pol/ and we're all fucked.

>>>/pol/41796812


It was fun while it lasted.

>>6175862
I'm a Left Communist with a deep seated hatred of Feminism and the people that subscribe to it in every form after 1960.

Get at me nerd.

>>6175884

What are the bets you've conflated the people you hate with a concept you probably don't?

>>6175574
>Zen
>neglecting the material world altogether,

As Wenyi and his companions were ready to travel on, Master Dizang accompanied them to the gate. Addressing Wenyi, the master said, “I've heard you say several times that the three realms are only mind and the myriad phenomena are only consciousness.” The master then pointed to a large rock by the gate and said, “So is that rock inside or outside of your mind?”
Wenyi said, “Inside.'
The master said, “It's going to be a difficult journey carrying such a large rock in your head.”

>>6175536

>>6175901
Except Feminism has had nothing useful to say for an eternity. Things like dissecting the origins of the family and trying to emancipate women from things like housework were and are very interesting social experiments that plenty of early Bolsheviks theorists and Engels addressed already.

So, again, low, everything interesting was said a century ago, and I don't concern myself with people who value the primacy of things like social issues over economic ones. I've read de Beauvoir and the like and my primary problem with them comes from the fact that they attach themselves to left wing movements when they clear have different goals and motives.

>>6175710
Yeah it does, it's just that female as a class has been expanded considerably, and there are a number of women who can get into positions previously considered strictly for men, such a war, clergy, and political power.

>>6175941

>Butler
>Nothing interesting to say

Nah bruv.

>>6175974

>>6175960

So women were oppressed just because they were women?

Why did the 'female role' develop? Reproduction of labour. Women became the oppressed class due to their relation to the reproduction of the social unit. The class unburdened by this necessity assumed the exploitative position, and as the means of production developed, and societies became more complex, as you say, more men were forced into the previously female role. We see that in late capitalist societies in which the female role has been made obsolete, and the sexes are mutually proletarianised, the reproductive role recedes into the background. I'm of the opinion that the burden of childbirth and the reproduction of labour has been the bulk of gender ideology's material basis.

The point is that women did not become oppressed through some essential characteristic of their nature, but rather as a part of the process of reproducing society, the ideology of masculinity and femininity developing as a consequence. Gender is class, but class is not necessarily gender.

>>6175983

Frames of war is a bloody good, important, interesting book.

>>6175574
As a practicing Zen Buddhist, that's not what Zen is.

>>6175589
>tfw reproductive organs are literally ideology

>>6175616
>gay marriage is good but redistribution of wealth at the expense of the land owners is bad

you're disgustingly liberal.

>>6176021

Get lost. 4chan is no place for Zen Buddhists.

>>6176049
Very well.

>>6176061
how zen of you, on second thought please stay

Don't they all lead to socialism in the end though? Marxism is obvious, and Zen involves renouncing all worldly goods. Renouncing earthly gain leads to a collectivist society. And aestheticism will bring about socialism because "art for art's sake" requires artists who don't have to sell their art for money (see Wilde's The Soul of Man under Socialism)

Being Patrician is ignoring chucklefucks like OP and creating your own path.

>>6175536
Is that you Rei?

>>6176101
Glad we can agree that communism is inevitable :^)

>>6175589
Are you literally retarded?

>>6175536

>Marxism

No thanks, I don't want to join the global proletariat, they are stupid and mostly a fiction of Marx's imagination.

>Aestheticism

I fooled around with this a bit but really it turns out being really wishy washy and reductionist

> Zen

Great, kill the Buddha, destroy all the idols, but I would rather be full of life than empty and disassociated with everything.

>>6176148
他们很不好