/lit/ - Literature

Yes three dimensional characters seem to be something fantasy writers don't often grasp.

>>2693787
>implying Tyrion and Dany don't have the same level of plot-armor that Frodo and Aragorn had

I didn't feel Aragorn had plot armour. I mean, they were all heroes/champions, but they were all mortal. I was actually expecting at least a couple of them to die, maybe Legolas and Gimli in a rearguard action or something. Though Gandalf DID die, regardless of his return, and of course Ne-I mean Boromir..

I think they're just different sorts of books. Tolkien is sort of a grand tour of an ancient, mostly crumbling world, using the heroic epic plot as a vehicle. I guess ASOIAF has similar elements, but ultimately it feels more like a political/personal drama with a heroic epic setting as a backdrop. Sort of the reverse. It's easier for characters to be both prominent and vulnerable because the books are ABOUT the characters, and that's one of its strengths.

>>2695423

I don't think plot armour is necessarily the issue. Tyrion and Dany aren't the high-minded saviour types: Dany develops into a bitchy, vindictive autocrat and Tyrion, though he is sympathetic, is often willfully immoral and unscrupulous.

Yes, GRRM's strength is character's. Not writing, Jesus not writing.

Killing off everybody =/= good character development.

GRRM still has better character development than Tolkien, but that's not really saying much.

I don't think there is really a comparison here. Game of Thrones is meant to be realistic/medieval (with supernatural elements), and Lord of the Rings is more meant to me legendary/mythological. It doesn't fit mythology to have your heroes dying left and right. It also wouldn't fit a political cloak-and-dagger saga to be full of mythological heroes.

>>2695460
>Dany
>not the high-minded saviour type
she goes on a crusade to free slaves and thinks of all her subjects as her children and won't abandon them to go back to her homeland

>>2695467
..and that's exactly the reason behind the story of Gandalf's death and return.

I think of him as a kind of greek mythological character like Hercules or Ulysses and his fall with the Balrog kind of alludes to their opposing of Hades. He went to the doomed land and eventually defeated death.

It really brings out Tolkien's idea of traditional writing.

>>2695479
I agree, but my point was really that a comparison between Martin's characters and Tolkien's characters is fairly nonsensical, because they are aiming to do entirely different things with their stories, even if they both fall in to the broad genre of "fantasy."

>>2695473
She also shits in a river for an entire page.

>>2695484
Yes, she was on the verge of death from diarrhea and starvation. Your point?

>>2695479

I think of it as shite, why don't you read books for adults son?

>>2695482
GoT is certainly more modern in the way the characters are handled. While in LOTR the only real characters developing are Frodo and Sam, GoT tries to present many different character relationships and development but by that, really misses out on the whole "fantasy" part.

>>2695460

>Dany develops into a bitchy, vindictive autocrat
>autocrat

Its Game of Thrones, bro. Typically a throne has an autocrat sitting on it.

If you want to badmouth Daenerys Stormborn of the HouseTargaryen please do it elsewhere.

>>2695488
>>>/b/

>>2695510
why are you defending used goods anon? Her genitals are completely ruined, and she wouldn't fuck you even if you asked

>>2695536

Ah yes because you're showered with fresh virgins on the eve of each work week.

I like her not because I want to have sex with a fictional fantasy character (which I do) but because I relate to the character. I am also Stormborn and have blonde hair. I also have a collection of lizards. I also have no living family members.

>>2695551
lol @ you if you're not lovingly bathed by three delicious virgins from the furthest corners of the earth and the end of ecah day, who you then proceed to thoroughly violate and then execute so they can know the touch of no other man

i feel sad for you, btich

I think the only character that can be truly characterized as having "plot armor" is Dany, given that she is completely excluded from all the other characters for a long time and common sense dictates that her story has to lead to some meaningful conclusion before it's over.

Jon maybe has a bit of it too (not as much as Dany because there's another PoV in the Wall for a long time) but generally speaking, I think people say Jon and Tyrion have plot armor only in hindsight after they've seen where the characters are going. You might've guessed while reading book 2 for the first time that Jon and Tyrion are going to make it to the end but there was certainly no guarantee. Now it is pretty much a guarantee, this far into the story (although Old Jon won't be back, unless his complete personality is somehow stored in Ghost before he is resurrected, which I would be disappointed by, as the fact that there's a big cost to the resurrection (loss of identity and personality traits) is the only thing that makes me not dislike the whole resurrection deal )

I dunno about Dany and Tyrion plot armors, they simply have what any other normal main characters have in other novels.

GoT death ratios is definitely higher than most novel, it doesn't happen often that the mighty hero full of honor and one of the main pov falls into the oblivion and gets decapitated.

is it wrong that i pronounce him as 'grrim' in my head?

>>2695466

>Killing off everybody

That's such bullshit and a misrepresentation of the series.

>>2695610

as long as you do it like it's motorcycle noises

>>2695604
I'd say Tyrion has plot armor. He has no formal training in combat yet he's survived several battles. He also gets whisked away he should have been executed (I'm talking the mountain versus martell fight).
Now he's on the verge of the biggest fight the free cities have seen and he's ingratiating himself with those mercenary guys like it's all no big deal.

Love the character but I've never felt like he was in any danger whatsoever.

>>2695610

I always imagine him as the "Gurm"

>>2695623
There is such thing as luck. And given the amount of characters who have *bad* luck, I'd say it's reasonable to let one character slip through the cracks.

>>2695623

>He has no formal training in combat yet he's survived several battles.

Good point, I feel Tyrion's battle scenes are among the most unrealistic stuff in the series and I cringe every time I read that shit.

>but I've never felt like he was in any danger whatsoever.

Oh I certainly don't feel he's in any danger now or was in any danger especially after the conclusion of book 3, I'm just saying that to a new reader who reading books 1-3, Tyrion might seem more expendable than Dany simply because he's one among many in a familiar place, while Dany is the only PoV far away and her story is clearly not over yet at any point in the first books, especially after the dragons are born.

Do you think Lady Stark, once the war got going, ever looked back to her actions at the Crossroad Inn and realize THAT is where she fucked over the seven kingdoms?

>>2695640
>Good point, I feel Tyrion's battle scenes are among the most unrealistic stuff in the series and I cringe every time I read that shit.

Yeah, i agree with this. I'm ok with him bullshit people around, because frankly, when you are a draft it makes sense you are going to put some skill in diplomacy, but when he started to kill people in the battle, ugh.

I'm glad the tv series skip that.

>>2695627
ITP: GRRM casting the Summer Isles

>>2695634

Absolutely, it's just the constant stream of luck, not just some luck, that annoyed me. First he survives a trek through the forest that many stronger men die on. Then he is saved from an Other by happening to have a magic weapon on him. Then he is again saved at the last minute from wights by Coldhands and his murder of crows. 3 life-saving occurrences in a short span on time.

If there's one thing I hate about the series, its the fucking SPIES excuse...

>How did you learn about this thing when you were underwatch 24/7?
Spies

>How did you learn about this thing that happened last night when you were half-way across the country?
Spies

>How did you learn this secret that only one person knows and said person has never told anyone?
Motherfucking Spies

A civilized ASOIAF thread. What the fuck.

>>2695645

Even if she did, she shouldn't have to regret her actions, they were understandable at the time. She couldn't know Lysa was literally insane.

>>2695662

It's not that unplausible after you learn the walls of the Red Keep are filled with tunnels where children can crawl in.

>>2695662

Is my lord flustered?

Oh, by the way, I knew you were going to post this thanks to my little birds.

>>2695683

Well here, how about this situation:

>>2695645

HOW THE FUCK DID JAMIE LEARN SO FUCKING FAST THAT TYRION WAS KIDNAPPED BY LADY STARK? Worse, why the FUCK did he BELIEVE the story? If I was him I would of been like "You're telling me a woman of noble birth, who is supposed to be a hundred of miles to the north of where you say she was, was travelling ALONE, save for an old knight, AND she's captured my brother for crimes against the king? Yeah, fucking right"

>>2695662

>I HATE PLOT ADVANCEMENT

Sure, let's wait around for three months before anything fucking happens.

Poll:

Who is the most interesting character? Which character do you like so much that when you turn the page and see their name in big letters at the top of the next chapter you say "THIS GONNA GET GOOD"

>>2695709
varys

>>2695709

Arya

Once shit hits the fan and she grows a pair, things get real interesting.

I also like how she's the window to the lower classes in the books.

>>2695709

Sandor "The Hound" Clegane

>>2695709
Theon, Davos, Jon, Jaime, Sansa, sometimes Arya

>>2695709

Jaime. I liked his transformation, and his chapters were the only good ones in Feast.

>>2695694

>HOW THE FUCK DID JAMIE LEARN SO FUCKING FAST THAT TYRION WAS KIDNAPPED BY LADY STARK?

Okay I don't know the exact time line of AGoT, but it's plausible that a long time actually passes between that Catelyn chapter and that Ned chapter, considering the whole of AGoT takes about a year and there's six chapters between them (and remember there's no limit to how long a time can pass in a chapter, and all chapters aren't in strict chronological order)

>>2695709

>Which character do you like so much that when you turn the page and see their name in big letters at the top of the next chapter you say "THIS GONNA GET GOOD"

I can't just name one, there's at least four: Jaime, Cersei, Arya and Victarion.

>>2695460
Just found this thread. What's wrong with the writing? Explain?

>>2695740
It's a generic medieval fantasy rapefest that's stretched out because the author knows that fans will buy an infinite number of books out of a feeling of obligation to finish the series.

>>2695738
I don't understand why people liked Victarion so much. He has like 3 chapters and nothing interesting happens in them.

>"Oh noes Euron is king, that sucks!"
>"Asha is hitting me, sounds legit, let me get a boner instantly."
>"Man, Damphair sure is weird."


Also, Jaime and Jon are the best characters. Jaime for his growth and personality, Jon for being interesting the entire time (also >Dat Ygritte).

>>2695758

>rapefest

Rape is barely depicted at all in the series, especially in relation to it's breadth.

>that's stretched out because the author knows that fans will buy an infinite number of books out of a feeling of obligation to finish the series

Baseless conjecture.

>>2695761

>He has like 3 chapters and nothing interesting happens in them.

That's not how I judge a character at all.

Victarion is fun to read because he's a dumb brute and funny as hell (without realizing it). His chapters are filled with dark comedy. Like when he throws those male prostitutes overboard because they're "unnatural creatures".

I'm glad Ned and Robert died like the bitches they were. I hope Cat gets raped and killed too.
Fucking bitch.

I, for once, welcome Cersei as our new Queen and right heir.

>>2695785

No opinion on Robert, but I feel terrible for Ned.

He wasn't a character he was a plot device.

He was only in the story for Martin to kill and show everyone that honor and justice ain't the rules of the game in his world.

>>2695783
Meh. Different strokes for different folks. I hated reading his chapters despite the bits of humor in them. His character was also really static and one dimensional to me. I would have preferred something to move the plot in some direction (something the series started to lack by the time Victarion was introduced). Brienne was same as him but at least her storyline was going somewhere.

>>2695791

But you only see that in hindsight.

>>2695791

Robert: Fat, ugly retard who just fucks bitches all day, turned Cersei int the women she is and fucked the kingdom all over. Also, partially responsible for Joffrey uprising.

Ned: HURR HURR Honor. GOTA GIVE THE KINGDOM TO STANNIS EVEN THOUGH IT WILL FUCK THE KINGDOM OVER. Oh, btw Cersei, i know about your incest babies! Bye, gotta leave you.

Cat: Stupid cunt that started this shit. How could she not foresee the consequences of her actions?

Seriously, i feel more sorry for all the villages that were burned and all the people who where killed by the Lannister initial strike.

>The thing I like about Martin's characters, as opposed to Tolkien's, is that they are all human and mortal.
Sure, and it's why GRRM's brand of fantasy is better in the long run than Tolkien's.

>I mean that they are all flawed characters and capable of dying
Okay, that's only a very small, negative part. The reason why GRRM's fantasy is superior to Tolkien's, in the long run, is because he presents us a world that celebrates and glorifies the one we already live in, a very real one with lots of violence and so on which is the same one that writers like Chaucer celebrate, in contrast to Tolkien's, which celebrates and glorifies an essentially christian one with christian notions of "good" and "evil".

>>2695810

>Cat: Stupid cunt that started this shit. How could she not foresee the consequences of her actions?

How the fuck was she supposed to do that?

And why wouldn't she detain Tyrion if she was given the rare chance to do so (as Tyrion would be safe if he got to KL) and she had good reason to believe Tyrion had something to do with Bran's assassination attempt?

>>2695818

>Good Reason
>A single weapon that SUPPOSEDLY belonged to the guy

She was a stupid cunt

>>2695818
>And why wouldn't she detain Tyrion if she was given the rare chance to do so

Because the Lannister would start a fucking war over the news.

WHICH IS WHAT THEY FUCKING DID

>>2695818
>Circumstantial evidence based on the word of a known liar and manipulator
>Justification to essentially kidnap someone without letting them give a defense of any sort.

Catelyn was in the wrong.

>>2695821
i think it was more an issue of blaming "the lannisters" and assuming tyrion was implicit

which kinda makes sense if you consider that tyrion is only obviously "the sympathetic character who plays all angles and isn't as bad as jaime et al" if you're a modern reader and not some fictional medieval broad who is used to decades of kinstrife and warfare and shit

>>2695821
>>2695825
>>2695826

A mother concerned for her child

Stupid cunt, yes, but then again, you know how mothers are....

How much is Ned wisdom stat ?

>>2695832
WISDOM - 0
HONOR - 1,000,000

>>2695825

So? Even if she did know that why should that stop her from detaining Tyrion?

You DO realize that the real thing that perpetuated the war was imprisoning Ned, right? Taking Tyrion into custody just got Tywin rustled and moving, that's all.

>>2695826

>Circumstantial evidence based on the word of a known liar and manipulator

Why would she not trust Petyr? She knows he's loved her since she was a kid. Sounds like hindsight thinking, the "liar and manipulator" part. Catelyn didn't know such things.

>Justification to essentially kidnap someone without letting them give a defense of any sort.

He was to present his defense at a just trial.

>>2695846

Fine, IN HINDSIGHT, she's a stupid cunt.

>>2695851

That's like saying that someone who makes a mathematically smart investment, but loses his money because something catastrophic happens, is a retard in hindsight.

It doesn't work like that retard, the smartness of an act can only be judged from the information and thought processes present at the moment the act is made.

>>2695846

"Oh hey, that boy who I scorned as a girl is giving me some information that could cause me to do something rash, I better believe in him!"

"Oh hey, there's the guy that the other guy told me was the owner of a weapon used to attack my son! HE WAS THE CRIMINAL! ARREST HIM! Forget that his family is full of dicks and assholes who'll for certain take this as a insult to their honor!"

Breaking News: The Starks are idiots

Up now is Ned with the weather.

You can't compare Martin with Tolkien.

What pulls me in with Martin isn't his writing style (he's really bad with writing good English; I don't think many would disagree), but his three-dimensional characters and the ultimate deviation away from fantasy's plague of Tolkien fanwank for over four decades.

If there's one thing GRRM's legacy will leave it's that he and his works weren't Tolkien. No, Asoiaf isn't a perfect piece, but neither was LotR. However, GRRM has done more to progress fantasy forward than any other modern author has. People like Goodkind and Jordan gave it a great effort, but they both fell short.

I'm curious to see if we'll see an increase in political intrigue themed fantasy plots in the next 20 years. Maybe Asoiaf is the next source of fanwank for future titles.

>>2695867

>"Oh hey, that boy who I scorned as a girl is giving me some information that could cause me to do something rash, I better believe in him!"

"Scorned"? She friendzoned him, that's all.

>>2695877

>Hey, you know the guy about to beat you up? Yeah, I just gave him a token of my love.
>So really, its actually ME beating you up littlefinger!

>>2695877

EVEN WORSE

EVEN FUCKING WORSE

>>2695876
>Maybe Asoiaf is the next source of fanwank for future titles.

you know it, it's getting more popular with each passing day

>>2695878

What?

>>2695881

Again, what? Petyr challenged Brandon and got his ass kicked, Catelyn hated the fact that he did and felt bad for him. Nothing Catelyn did was bad or out of line.

>>2695882
And these sorts of conclusions are what makes me disheartened with the fantasy genre. Because you're right.

Like fuck, I wish fantasy would either have less writers or more original premises. It really doesn't seem that hard to create an interesting, unique premise.

Hey guys what do you think of pic related?

Aren't they supposed to be beautiful ice elves or something?

>>2695953

I was annoyed.

Especially because there's no budgetary reason for not making them look as they were described in the books. They're just changing shit because they can.

>>2695953
i was confused as to which is more accurate. lighting perhaps?

>>2695958
yup lighting

>>2695955
dunno man I think that evil wrinkly ice cavemen are cooler than evil icy ice elves

>>2695967
.... they look like undead ice elves to me.

Long hair, mostly blonde

>>2695953
Only part I disliked was them having Sam just stand there like a fool. People say it's the Obsidian dagger that kept them away, but that actually gives them more incentive to kill him.

>>2695970
Blonde? That's white hair. And since when are Elves bearded or so wrinkly?

Honestly anything that looks nothing like this is a great design for the Others as far as I'm concerned.

>>2695977
I never knew Sephiroth was part of the ASOIAF universe.

>>2695977

But that's closer to the book description than the ones in the show...

>>2695983
Yeah but it sucks.

Like I said, wrinkly evil ice cavemen > beautiful evil ice elves.

>>2695997
It's certainly a lot scarier at a visceral level

Also, the show's design for the Others really fits them better, doesn't it?

They don't feel cold so they don't need clothes, and they can't be hurt by steel so they don't need armor.

Their armor can't even stop obsidian, can it?

It really is much more sensible to have them wearing nothing but loincloths.

And the dry wrinkly skin fits because in cold, dry weather skin becomes dry and wrinkly.

>>2696026

>and they can't be hurt by steel so they don't need armor.

We don't know that.

>It really is much more sensible to have them wearing nothing but loincloths.

In the last shot of season 2 there's an Other who IS wearing armor.

>>2695645
SHe specifically does that in the books.

>>2695723
This.
Sucks that he's a monk now.

>>2696013
Blond elves are scarier than how they depicted them in the show?
No.
They're wrong, they did an excellent job.
I feel like they spent all the budget that they could have used on the Sack of Winterfell on the depictions of the Others and the (somewhat garbled, but fine) portrayal of Dany's ordeal in the warlock's tower in Qarth.

>>2696117
Who even gives a fuck about battling? It was a wise decision to spend the money developing other plot points that were less generic than hurr durr battle lots of people die ooo explosions

>>2696132
The funny part about that is there's going to be a shitload of action next season.

>>2696117

Just chiming in to say yes, I do think pale human looking things would be scarier than the thing in the show, for the same reason I would find a sociopathic killer with a charming, nice face more horrifying on screen than some brute, rough looking guy as the killer.

If I saw some pale human looking thing mercilessly chopping up people and showcasing superhuman strength that would be far more terrifying than some monster looking thing doing the same, because there's no dissonance with the monster, it makes sense that a monster would do that.

>>2696140
I would agree, but I don't think the Others appear as "rough, brute looking" characters, or that their portrayal differs greatly from the books.
You seem to be touting some kind of vampire Legolas, which is entirely incongruous with Martin's vision.

>>2696132
No, I completely agree. I just think that they need to introduce Ramsay Bolton. He was fairly integral to the books.

hey whatever dudes caveman others are tops

Hey here's a question for you /lit/.

Lots of people believe that Jon Snow isn't actually Ned's bastard, instead he's Rhaegar Targaryen's and Lyanna Stark's love child.

How would that impact the story?

>>2696310

>Lots of people believe that Jon Snow isn't actually Ned's bastard

Well that's a done deal

>instead he's Rhaegar Targaryen's and Lyanna Stark's love child.

Almost certainly.

>How would that impact the story?

I personally hope it wouldn't affect it in any way.. But it probably will, given the whole "song of ice and fire" and "prince that was promised" thing.

Unless Rhaegar divorced his wife and eloped with Lyanna, which I find unlikely, it won't legally mean much anything though. So unless it fits into a prophecy it shouldn't have significance.

>>2696379
>Unless Rhaegar divorced his wife and eloped with Lyanna, which I find unlikely, it won't legally mean much anything though.

Right. He wouldn't be the rightful heir to the throne even if he were Rhaegar's son because he'd still be a bastard.

Oh and if John is the "prince that was promised," what's Melissandre going to do with Stannis?

>>2696388

>what's Melissandre going to do with Stannis?

Well it's been painfully obvious since the beginning that Stannis isn't Azor Ahai.

GRRM even draws special attention into the fact that his sword only shimmers light, but there's no warmth emanating from it, which is what Lightbringer should do. The shimmer is one of Melisandre's tricks.

>>2696379
Why would Jon have dark hair if he was Rhaegar's son? Lyanna had light hair, Rickon has light hair.

DETECTIVE NED IS ON THE CASE

>>2696392
Bud does Mel actually think that Stannis is Azor Ahai, and how would her character react knowing that she was wrong?

>>2696397

Nope.

>Lyanna is described as beautiful, with the dark hair that characterizes the Stark appearance.

>>2696403
Along with that, Targaryen genetics are weak compared to most. And Jon has been said to look more like a Stark than his trueborn siblings.

>>2696401

From reading her PoV I do think she still thinks Stannis is AA, which I found weird.

If she starts thinking Jon is Azor Ahai then I believe she'll just start concentrating on Jon and stop giving a shit about Stannis.

>>2696388

The Targs kept harems in parts of their history and slept around a lot in all of it. As the Targ maester on the wall's story indicates, their succession methods were also eccentric. I wouldn't assume that they would care if the son was a bastard, or not.

Spoiler: Dany wins the throne.

You know it's gonna happen. It just is.

>>2696419

Also, if Jon was not a legitimate candidate for heir, hiding his parentage from Robert would not have been an issue. Besides, in the real world, bastards and stepsons have inherited more than once. They could even create a legal fiction that Rhaegar had a standing order to legitimize his son with Lyanna.

>>2696420
spoiler: All the throne shit doesn't matter when there's Ice Zombies with Undead Bears kicking down the door

>>2696425
Fucking massive dragons breathing fire versus monsters made out of ice

can you see where this is going?

>>2696420
I dunno anon some people are pretty convinced that she's not.

Given that she's somewhat of a Mary Sue GRRM may have intended her to be the winner when he devised the whole story but he's changed a lot since then.

>>2696449

GRRM has said the end for all the major characters has been clear from the start.

>Mary Sue

No, she's awfully incompetent. A Mary Sue would be good at everything she does.

She has plot armor, that's for sure though.

>>2696461
>GRRM has said the end for all the major characters has been clear from the start.

They're all raped and murdered?

>>2696449

She will fail because her goal is not to rule Westeros, but to have revenge on it, to burn it. GRRM is depicting her more and more as petty and insane (the second being a common Targ trait), which actually makes sense. Really, to fulfill the role GRRM meant for Dany, she only needed 1-3 chapters a book, but then he couldn't get off on 13 year old sex, teenage lesbian sex, and then even more teenage sex. Why his editors didn't tell him to publish his fap–fic outside the novels is a mystery.

Jon Snow, as the prince that is promised, will slay his natural wife (by Targ standards), tempering the sword in her blood. As the descendent of Stark and Targ, as a man between the old gods and the new, as the man who will face both Others and Dragons, his is the Song of Ice & Fire.

>>2696487

>Jon Snow, as the prince that is promised, will slay his natural wife (by Targ standards), tempering the sword in her blood. As the descendent of Stark and Targ, as a man between the old gods and the new, as the man who will face both Others and Dragons, his is the Song of Ice & Fire.

I fucking hope not. So cliche.

Does anyone else get the feeling that Lightbringer is actually not a sword but a dragon?

It makes sense, the sword is supposed to give off heat and light. Hence dragon fire, Azor Ahai was supposed to have quenched the sword in the heart of Nissa Nissa. I see parallels between this and Dany's sacrifice of Drogo.

>>2696487

It's funny to see you all assuming your theories as facts and creating other theories based on that.

I hope Martin screws your dreams and makes you disapointed.

>>2695460

Bullshit. You are talking about them all character being able to die. Well, Daenerys and Tyrion can't die and are both mouthpieces for Martin's morale. On top of that they get into crazy situations and always get out of them on top. Take Tyrions duel in the Vale. Guy gets doomed to die, then talks his way out as if everyone around him is dumber than Watson.

>>2696536

> Implying I give a shit.

I read the first two books and enjoyed them, the third book started to show ugly signs of Robert Jordan syndrome, the fourth was definitely so, and the fifth was a pile of shit that I shouldn't have bothered to finish.

I won't read the rest, but I will read synopses to sate my curiosity, which is the only reason most people read stories like this. (Pro–tip: If you're only reading for the plot, you shouldn't be reading.) Reading a synopsis for ADwD would have saved me reading the damned thing, which had only about seventy–five interesting pages in its whole bulk.

>>2696547

>reading ASoIaF for the plot

LOL

Also,

AFFC = ASoS > ADWD > AGoT > ACoK

>>2696557

Then what do you read it for? Martin's crappy prose? Lame fapping material? Masochism? Because the fat chick you like reads them?

>>2696563

I enjoy the characters.

>>2696569

OK, let's think about this: What gives you the information about the characters that creates your affection…

>captcha: ser isopod

>>2696586

"Reading for the plot" implies one cares about what happens in the story. I only care insofar that it makes sense, as long as the events that happen make logical sense I don't care beyond that and I just enjoy the characters.

>>2696601

You don't mean "logical sense" you mean "in a fashion that agrees with how the plot has depicted the characters so far". Your love of the characters is an epiphenomenon on your apprehension of the plot; you read for the plot, whether or not you want to admit it.

Also, I now find it very funny that you believed I would be butthurt by the plot, when you are the one concerned that it will be "logical".

>>2696619

>You don't mean "logical sense" you mean "in a fashion that agrees with how the plot has depicted the characters so far".

Well sure actions have to make logical sense too but I was also talking about logistics and such. And physical stuff. Like Tyrion fighting was awful unrealistic garbage, made no sense that he could kill several people like that.

>Your love of the characters is an epiphenomenon on your apprehension of the plot; you read for the plot, whether or not you want to admit it.

But "the plot" doesn't have to advance one bit for me to enjoy reading, all it takes is a character doing SOMETHING, it doesn't need to be related to "the plot" in anyway, hence I read for the characters.