/lit/ - Literature

t.

>>22874692
would you prefer the #2e012d coloured sea

>>22874692
Why do people actually think this line means the greeks couldn't perceive colors? it's literally a fucking analogy, only someone who has never written poetry before could come up with this bullshit theory of language controlling color perception.

He's not saying the water was purple you dumb ape.

Someone post the greek

>>22874860
>Why do people actually think this line means the greeks couldn't perceive colors? it's literally a fucking analogy, only someone who has never written poetry before could come up with this bullshit theory of language controlling color perception.
This. "Coisas prateadas espocam".

>>22874880
>Someone post the greek
I wanna see it.

>>22874692
You don't get ancient wisdom from poets, you get it from philosophers.

"Wine-faced" [Drake expressing disapproval]
"Twisted-voiced" [Drake expressing approval]

>>22874751
But he also mentions it was foggy. And what about the fighting at midnight? And what about the rivers that change direction seasonally? And why does Troy open up into a wife open Bay but wouldn't of it were the Schliemann site?

>>22874692
>wine-dark sea
wine-DARK sea, OP.
He's not saying wine-colored, he's saying it's dark and rich like wine. Anyway, it's poetic language, so there is a certain license with logic and similitude taken. That's it. Problem solved.

>>22875316
>he's saying it's dark and rich like wine
... In color. We all know he's talking about the Baltic.

>>22874692
Probably red wine anon, not white.

>>22874692
Don't worry about it, woman. That book is for men.

>>22875323
Yeah, dark and rich in color like wine is dark and rich in color. He's not saying wine-colored.

>>22875294
idk most of that but shliemann is kind of patently a hack. my theory is that classicists don't call him out because most of us resent having to produce novel conclusions and we respect those who do.

>>22875340
He obviously is using color descriptors. You are insane.

>>22874692
'wine-dark', not 'wine-coloured'

>>22875346
>You are insane
Resorting to ridiculous ad-hominems over a disagreement this petty and subjective, OK man. Take care.

He means dark as in "dark like wine", by the way, if it wasn't obvious that this is a perfectly reasonable interpretation of the wording (which it is).

>>22875351
I tried to tell him, anon.

>>22874692
what is basic reading comprehension

>>22875294
>>22875323
If Troy was in the baltic we'd know because of the stone walls.
We haven't found any big stone walls from before the time the Illiad was written, ergo, Troy is not in the baltic.

>>22875384
What makes you think it had stone for walls? It's never stated and at one point the Achaeans break them. Troy had to be held by lines of troops. Also, why a horse? A symbol relevant to Alani, Ariamaspi, Aorsi, etc?

>>22874692
>ancient wisdom
>from a 30 year old translation
Nothing captures the essence of the source material as well it’s original Greek.

>>22874692
He was blind, cut him some slack

>>22875364
tint and shade vs. hue

>>22874860
>the greeks couldn't perceive colors
That's not the point. People here will talk about the wisdom of the ancient Greeks that modern man has supposedly lost when they had not yet been able to think of a word for "blue." This if nothing else suggests a primitiveness of mind.

>>22875346
You are actually autistic

>>22874692
Have you not seen the ocean during a storm? It is the color of a dark burgundy, almost black. That description is meant to evoke this image, of a terrible, storming ocean. Open your imagination some and the image will be clear.

>Fagles

Good scholar, bad translator. The only acceptable English language translation is Cowper's.

>>22874910
>Homer greatly inspired the philosophic thought of Socrates, Plato, Epictetus, and Xenophon and is quoted often by them

What did these philosophers mean by this?

>>22874910
HAH! Getta load of this pleb! Have you even read Plato?

>>22876598
I roasted him at nearly the same moment as you...poetic, lol.

>>22876610
based Plato enjoyer

>>22876601
Plato would agree that you don’t get wisdom from poets (Poleitia).

>>22876598
Homer inspired Socrates in that he spent most of his time refuting him.

>>22876623
This is true. In book III of the Republic Socrates refuted parts of Homers poetics like Zeus lusting after women, that good and evil come from God (whereas only good does irl), etc, that's true, but he also praises him in the same breath as a poetic genius despite his faults in guiding youth towards virtue, and quotes certain parts of him as being highly admirable and comendable towards virtue, such as the honor of his hero's, their love of brotherhood and care for one another, sacrificing your life for your country, God, and sacred institutions, etc.

>>22874692
lmao fucking retard holy shit

>>22876636
In most dialogues, Homer is cited to make a point about something (Charmides) through an appeal to popular reasoning because Homer was popular in society at the time or else he is cited to make a point about language semantics (Cratylus) or literary criticism (Hippias Minor). He is almost always mentioned just to tear him down.

>>22874692
he's not referring to the color, you moron

>>22876646
People at that time would make an appeal to Homer's poetics to justify their actions, sure. But it isn't any different than today, where I could site some violent action in LotR movie to justify my behaviour, even though those movies are filled with several displays of behaviour that would tend towards honor and virtue.

Here's a quote from Socrates in Plato's Apology, where he evokes Hector and Achilles in the Iliad:

>"Fate," as she said, "waits upon you next after Hector"; he, hearing this, utterly despised danger and death, and instead of fearing them, feared rather to live in dishonor, and not to avenge his friend. "Let me die next," he replies, "and be avenged of my enemy, rather than abide here by the beaked ships, a scorn and a burden of the earth." Had Achilles any thought of death and danger? For wherever a man's place is, whether the place which he has chosen or that in which he has been placed by a commander, there he ought to remain in the hour of danger; he should not think of death or of anything, but of disgrace. And this, O men of Athens, is a true saying.
>a true saying

A true saying, from Homer. This is just one example of him quoting Homer in a positive light. I also believe Socrates evokes a quote from Achilles in his dying breath. It isn't as black and white as you're making it out to be, sorry anon.

>>22874692
I know this is bait but I reached more or less the same conclusion after reading through some of the classic Greek plays. It's all just barbaric fairy tales trying to square hedonism with death.

>>22875394
>What makes you think it had stone for walls?
You mean, like every ancient fortification?
>It's never stated and at one point the Achaeans break them.
And?
>Troy had to be held by lines of troops.
And?
>Also, why a horse? A symbol relevant to Alani, Ariamaspi, Aorsi, etc?
Yes, it's not like horses were relevant in greek mythology. Your point?

Nobody was able to post the greek

>>22876532
>UM EKSSCHUSE ME YOU DON'T KNOW THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN CYAN AND CERULEAN?! HOW CAN I TRUST ANYTHING YOU SAY?

>>22876699
>how dare the ancients have fun and not be murderous proto-nazis 24/7 to fit in with my /pol/-tard fantasies

>>22876759
>murderous proto-nazis 24/7
That's more or less what they are though and what I was objecting to.

>>22876748
Cope. Homer did not have a word for the color of the sky. It did not exist in his language in his time.

>>22876722
it's οἶνοψ or more commonly in the accusative οἴνοπα (πόντον) which gives the poet a nice final dactyl + spondee
literally wine-looking sea

>>22876978
Naw, it obviously has to do with sea sickness being compared with drunkenness, what are your thoughts on Ethiopian and cyclops

are you literally autistic OP? I don't mean the funny 4chan. There's no other reason why wou wouldn't be able to comprehend language that goes beyond the conventionalities of the vernacular

>>22877044
this guy gets it

>>22877050
Thanks, you get it to bro

So wine dark is not what it says at all, look at all these pseuds who couldn't read greek

>>22877044
(i'm >>22877047)
What do you think about γλαυκοψ tho? like, iirc LSJ gives it as "silver" by analogy to the color of an owl's literal eye, and not, as it is sometimes translated "owl-eyed Athena". I think both would cohere the translations of cyclops and oinops as they refer to literal eye balls in skulls. But I've always thought of Ethiops as "burnt-looking", just bc it's hard to imagine that their eyeballs in particular looked burnt, and that translation of Ethiops would be an argument for the "wine-dark" translation.

>>22877076
fuck! i meant i'm >>22877050

>>22877044
not what the root literally says though, oinos + op(like op-tic)
>>22877076
the final οψ meaning -looking appears in other adjectives of such kind it's hardly worth doubting, e.g αἶθοψ as adjective of wine itself i.e frizzy/fiery from αἴθομαι or νῶροψ for bronze
I was reading Cicero recently and the interpretation of γλαυκοψ for grey eyed is transmitted in the Latin as caesios oculos Minervae
cyclops makes sense as "op" ultimately refers to eyes, so -looking but in their case also the literal presence of a single eye which is explained by Hesiod himself right after introducing them

>>22877076
Brown eyed with yellow white of the eye is common for Ethiopians, they also have facial structure different from nogs so they are similar, Odysseus had a friend who was dark with black curly hair, I would like to look at his description again, and I think owl eyed is not quite right as doe/cow eyed is used so often and doe eyed is in my opinion big full gentle eyes, bright eye would be how I would put it as the Greeks used color in terms of brightness and also texture and sound in terms of soft and hard, but I'm not sure and would like to talk more about it and look closely at this text

>>22877125
wouldn't αιθοψ be the same etymology as the name for the Ethiopians, so that that's really not a new example from what I said? νωροψ I didn't know about, but I think it's worth pointing out that flashing and fiery (as in bright) are both things that eyes would be as well if they were looking at that type of thing. Also, the thing I said about γλαυκοψ, this is afaik the only word for silver in Greek and, like I said, I believe it's by analogy to the literal eye of the owl

We should also look at darkness veiled his eyes

>>22877161
>wouldn't αιθοψ be the same etymology as the name for the Ethiopians, so that that's really not a new example from what I said?
it's the traditional interpretation but it's also challenged more recently IIRC due to that kinda unexplained iota before omicron, whereas I'm getting αιθοψ as an adjective which I remember from memory from book 6 of the Iliad(χερσὶ δ’ ἀνίπτοισιν Διὶ λείβειν αἴθοπα οἶνον ἅζομαι)
>both things that eyes would be as well if they were looking at that type of thing
well that's pushing it especially since they are used as adjectives of various things
>Also, the thing I said about γλαυκοψ, this is afaik the only word for silver in Greek
nah ἀργύρεος would be the main one, if anything maybe it's the opposite, the owl getting a name ultimately from the color γλαυκός, IIRC the etymologies here are somewhat obscure

>>22876970
>They have the wrong word I don't like but they also didn't have a word
lol

>>22877196
as regards γλαυκος, γλαυξ is the word for owl and i'm generally inclined to say etymologies go shorter/simpler -> longer, but it'll be impossible to prove since γλαυκος is in Homer and it's not like there's an older text we could look to for uses of γλαυξ alone. for αιθιοψ, the iota towards the end of the word formulaically means "thing related to adj/noun" such as σιδηριον from σιδηρον, though it may not apply here it seems reasonable to me.

>>22877161
This got me thinking. βοοψ is an epithet that i'm 99% sure means "her eyes were like those of a cow" and not "she looked like a cow" (though, maybe!). Again, another point in the column of the -οψ suffix referring to literal eyeballs. I did not know the thing about Ethiopian eye balls.

>>22877266
>>22877149
agh! this

>>22877266
Thanks for responding, my writing is crude but I'm not retarded

> Gracques didn't know the names of their colours
Libshit revisionism bias

>>22877279
same. all the greek melted my verbal iq

This is doe eyed

This is γλαυκοψ

found οινοψ

What is the "best" english translation of the iliad and the odessey to buy. Older translations are fine.

>>22874860
The current popular theory is that their color words were different in meaning from modern languages, not that they couldn't perceive color.

This article argues the Greeks put more emphasis on the brightness of a color for classifying it rather than its hue like we do.
https://aeon.co/essays/can-we-hope-to-understand-how-the-greeks-saw-their-world

>>22877578
Was already mentioned and also we don't need you as middle man between Google faggot

>>22877578
Learned men have been expressing their own thoughts in this thread we don't need you or your regurgitated Google shit popular opinions

>>22877555
Alexander Pope's by far.

An entire sea of wine

mmm

>>22876598
Socrates explains how artists showcase a divinity in their writing without knowing it

>>22874692
wine can be white (green)

>>22874692
>another post about this shit
just shut the fuck up

Everyone ITT is a fucking retard.
It's a well known fact that Ancient Greeks diluted wine with water, as drinking wine bare was barbarian.

>>22880193
Hippocrates includes different levels of dilution as treatment based on the symptoms present. It is quite good.

Over the Chud-dark sea

>>22880193
I tried this with baking soda and it tasted shit

It's "twisted voice".