/lit/ - Literature

>>22809538
This book is on my list for years now and I never pulled the trigger even though I'm intrigued. How complex is the prose?

>>22809570
If you browse /lit/ and are acquainted with postmodernists already it’s fine but most people would likely consider it borderline incomprehensible. The last five or so pages take it to the extreme by describing the process of death and rebirth in exacting Latin medical terms. Most of the book is composed of long run on sentences, some of which are intentionally using poor grammar. Here is a random excerpt I took from Goodreads

>While on the one hand," he said, "our most prominent scientists, the inexhaustible heroes of this perennial confusion, have finally and somewhat unfortunately extricated themselves from the metaphor of godhead, they have immediately fallen into the trap of regarding this oppressive history as some kind of triumphant march, a supernatural progress following, what they call, the victory of 'will and intellect', and though, as you know, I am no longer capable of being the least surprised by this, I must confess to you I still cannot understand why it should be the cause of such universal celebration for them that we have climbed out of the trees. Do they think it's good like this? I find nothing amusing in it. Furthermore it doesn't fit us properly: you only have to consider how long, even after thousands of years of practice, we can keep going on two legs. Half a day, my dear friend, and we shouldn't forget it.

i think it's pathetic that the bourgeois after all their revolutions are still falling back to the greeks for some form of lineage, or to eastern teachings when they crave for some exoticism.

>>22809581
sweet, thanks anon

>>22809587
Eszter’s interest in Plato and Pythagoras is mentioned only once off handedly but the idea I gathered overall was that his music obsession wasn’t merely a music obsession but an obsession with finding truth and meaning. To Platonists, music is tied to truth and meaning which is why I brought it up. He is seeking for an idealist world view which he can not concede. It is not a book about Plato in great depth though. I reiterate Plato is mentioned only once when introducing the Eszter character.

Thanks for this, never heard of the guy. Couldn't find a copy of this in german, so I'm going with "Baron Wenckheim's Return" instead.

>>22809538
Looks interesting

>>22809587
I feel like I oversold the Plato thing. The book is absolutely about seeking an idealist viewpoint in the face of materialists (Mrs Eszter and the rabble rouser townspeople) who seek to destroy it and impose their own worldviews. It is about seeking meaning in life. That is the main gist of it. Many see it as a nihilistic book from reviews I read but I saw it more as about nihilists rather than as pushing nihilism.

>>22809538
I read Sátántangó not too long ago and enjoyed it a lot. How does it compare to it? I've read that Melancholy is more difficult/complex compared to it. Would you agree?
Also, how similar is it to Werckmeister Harmoniak? I was a bit surprised how Sátántangó by Tarr is almost a one-to-one adaptation of the material.

>>22809538
>Incredibly experimental
In what way?

>>22810051
Most people would consider the long run on sentences, the philosophical excursus, revealing/ not revealing characters names or whose thoughts are being recorded until well into the chapter to all be very experimental. In comparison to most books it is a tricky read.

>>22810036
I have never read Satantango but I did have the Werckmeister Harmonies movie on in the background while I read yesterday and it was virtually one for one. Werckmeister Harmonoes is the middle chapter of the book (divided into three named chapters and several sub chapters).

>>22809570
If you've ever read William Faulkner's stream of consciousness stuff in The Sound and the Fury or Absalom, Absalom!, I'd say the prose is pretty similar to that. Very long sentences that you have to "get into the rhythm" of. It takes active reading but I don't think it's especially difficult past that.

>>22809538
>A masterpiece of postmodernist literature
Personally, I thought it was a masterpiece of modernist literature. Nothing about it yelled postmodernism to me.

>>22809538
>Incredibly experimental
would experimental imply that the author has a hypothesis in mind that he is testing against?

>>22810051
It's not. It's written in a idiosyncratic style, but it isn't really doing anything that wasn't done already half a century before it was published. If you like modernist literature you will like it though. It's truly great book.

>>22811345
you, sir, win the internet

>>22811344
There are enough trademarks of postmodernism in it imo. Discussions showcasing deep knowledge of scientific or religious topics, unexplainable and virtually mystical events, an underlying sense of humor. It's all there

>>22811459
The book even begins with a train disappearing though it’s never brought up again.

>>22809538
The cover looks like a mewithoutyou album

>>22811512
It's a small part of a gigantic painting I saw one time at the Getty in LA, pretty sure it's called Christ in Brussels

>>22811594
You are correct. It was likely chosen because the crowd of angry people looks like the circus people who tore up the town.

Bump. Not so sure about the Platonism stuff. The book seems more to me like a commentary on idealism than on Platonism to me.

>>22812131
Plato and Pythagoras are mentioned exactly once in the very early part of Wreckmeister when introducing the Eszter character. I agree the book is about idealism in general but the Platonist ideas about music are helpful to understanding Mr Eszter’s theories on music and why finding the absolute harmony is so necessary to finding his place in the world. If you don’t have the background info on how Platonists view music as a metaphysical truth then Mr E is just searching for some pretty tunes.

>>22812131
I worded that rather poorly. The book isn’t a discussion of the forms in-depth so people shouldn’t go in expecting that. Knowledge of the metaphysical notion that music is believed to exist as an independent substance alongside truth and god is a prerequisite for getting anything out of the book. It is essential to understanding Mr Eszter’s character that idealist metaphysics (especially that of Plato) revolves around an understanding that perfect harmony is a form. Without that background knowledge the entire Eszter character won’t make much sense which is why I personally didn’t understand any of that when I first read it as a teen. Without that knowledge it’s just some random music teacher searching for a pretty sound.


That was what I was attempting to convey. I would say its overall message is pro-idealism or is at least hopeful regarding it. He talks about nihilism but much like Dosto and Nietzsche I wouldn’t say he is a nihilist or pessimist. His Callicles Esque characters are definitely the main villains. The bad guy Machiavellian is literally named “the Prince.”

>>22809581
I like the way you think and approach things OP. I think we have similar taste. you should check out these other surreal, experimental, post-modern works I've enjoyed. if you'd like my Goodreads I can give you that too

My Tired Father by Gellu Naum (autobiography by a Romanian surrealist written by doing cut-ups of American magazines, starts out seemingly random but eventually you see the outline by)
The Lime Twig by John Hawkes
The Passion According to G.H. by Lispector
> below - less surreal, more meta fictional
The Museum of Eterna's Novel by Macedonio Fernandez
The Conductor and Other Tales by Jean Ferry
Conversations by Cesar Aira

poetry - Double Dream of Spring by John Ashbery or Tennis Court Oath, specifically "They Only Dream of America (sp?)"

>>22811296
Didn't know that the movie covers only part of the book unlike Sátántangó where it's all of it. I'll check it out after I finish the book I'm currently reading.

>>22812987
The two sections it is missing are as follows:

Introduction- Mrs Plauf (mother of Valuska) gets on a train filled with vagrants and ruffians. She spots one eye banging her so she runs to the restroom. She escapes from him when the train stops and runs home but Mrs Eszter interrupts her while she is watching the Merry Widow on tv.

Epilogue- Mrs Plauf was killed during the riots so Mrs Eszter gives a half hearted eulogy at her funeral. Mrs Eszter is so happy to finally be in charge of everything that she fumbles a bit while delivering it

These bits are purely expository so they were likely cut for time and because they don’t really fit with the main story. They stand alone by themseves to introduce the characters and to give epilogue.

>>22809607
Baron Wenckheim is great. Probably his least-esoteric, and a lot of dark comedy.

I've also got to shill War & War in this thread, it rarely gets brought up compared to his other major works but I think it's on the same level of Melancholy.

>>22812780
Retard

>>22812780
Qrd on Lime Twig cuz I like the cover

>>22812780
I would enjoy seeing your recs on Goodreads.
>>22813852
Don’t pretend to be me, fuckface.

>>22813914
here you go - goodreads.com/Toran61
I will add that I try to keep my Goodreads eclectic for lack of a better word. Ive read a lot of bestsellers but don't have them on there because it doesn't do anyone any good to know I've read the Da Vinci Code lol. I'll reply again about The Lime Twig

>>22813908
The Lime Twig is one honestly one of the most difficult books I've ever read. 99% of people would drop it and say it's incomprehensible (but it's not nonsense, just very hard to follow). there are Surrealist, with a capital S, books that are often written in the style of Breton's automatic writing and then there are truly "surreal" books that are written in such a masterful way that when you comprehend them it warps your mind to near psychedelic levels of weirdness. The Lime Twig is the latter. John Hawkes tries his best to dismantle all convention of not just writing but everyday thought. for example there are numerous scenes written from the perspective of inanimate objects, others he dismisses chronology and instead writes the scene in groupings of like events. like he will write everything in scene regarding what the characters do, and then write everything about how the environment looks and then write everything about the characters internal monologue, it's hard to explain.
The story is about a guy getting caught up with gangsters in like 1930s England I think so there are some very violent scenes but they're written so beautifully you can't help but love them. a particular favorite of mine is a second person scene about someone being raped and murdered so it's written as though YOU are being raped and murdered.
fun stuff

>>22814023
>myaninelist
Fucking loser

>>22813908
I will also recommend Travesty by him which is loosely based on the life and more specifically the death of Albert Camus who died in a single car crash driving around the foothills of France. It's kind of a parody of The Fall by Camus but probably better than it, but I've never read The Fall. The book is a "recit" work (Google that term for a qrd from Wikipedia, it's a French style of narration). It's about this guy driving around his wife, his friend and his daughter? I think it's his daughter, around the French countryside and eventually he speeds up and never slows down before proceeding to explain (recite) the reasons why he is driving so dangerously fast and eventually driving them all to their doom. it's a super fun and to me, funny, story about why this guy plans to murder all his closest friends and family and as the book unfolds you just have this story getting wilder and wilder before the inevitable crash at the end.

>>22814058
Cool wikipedia summary, bro

>>22814052
I'm so happy I have that on there to make people like you seethe. pic related

>>22814060
there is no wikipage for Travesty.

>>22814060
Dude, what’s your fucking problem? You’ve been acting like a dick in this thread. That guy didn’t do anything.

>>22814284
some people get really mad when you don't conform to their very specific idea of normal, as far as it pertains to wherever they are. it's like autism for normies.

>>22812780
Good recommendations and very based for posting Hawkes. I recently read Passion Artist and Innocence In Extremis and going to read The Beetle Leg soon

>>22809538
I’ve wanted to read this and other stuff from Kr… for some time. I’ve almost pulled the trigger a few times. Next up is either this or one of Flaubert’s historical novels or letters

>>22814039
I don’t wanna be raped and murdered :(

>>22815608
Yeah, rape is hilarious till you the one that’s been raped.

>>22815952
lol, I was not expecting such a relevant scene from ATHF of all places.

>first chapter mentions boobs and rape
im in