/lit/ - Literature

>when the zoomer makes it to page 12 after five hours of painstaking reading

>>22680852
Give me books that glorify playing by the rules and fitting in then. They are always about le edgy outsiders that hold a mirror to the face of society and pay with their own happiness for it, IF the book is realistic but usually it ends with them finding what they seek not only despite being le edgy contrarian but because of it and whilst that is a nice fantasy, it is just that. A fantasy.

>>22680847
you're retarded bro
just lurk on /lit/ for 5 years and don't read any books. you'll come across enough material to think of yourself as /lit/ man. you'll develop enough intuition to find good posts.

that's what I did

>>22680865
I wonder who is the retarded one here.

>>22680862
There are books about literally anything and everything you could come up with. You're probably only coming across 'contrarian' lit because
1. you're finding books on /lit/ where being an outsider is a relatable thing
2. good books often need a reason to be written, and 'society is fine and I like following the rules' is an uninteresting concept to write about

>glorify playing by the rules and fitting in then
elaborate please. There is plenty of right-wing-leaning lit that glorifies and promotes conforming to tradition but is this what you mean? If you mean stories about normal people conforming to lifescript society and getting rewarded for it then admittedly I don't know what to suggest because that sounds incredibly boring. But again, I'm sure it's out there somewher.e

And if there really is a void in literature here then you should fill it with your ideas, especially if you think they are different from anything else that has been written already.

>>22680876
>you're finding books on /lit/ where being an outsider is a relatable thing
Mh, yes and no. I have read a fair share of books but most of them seem to be about glorifying or at least explaining why being a contrarian is a good thing. I get that that might be because only outsiders even feel a need to read as a stand in for real social connections.
>trad larp
Not really that. Its not about how everything was better back in the days. I mean, if it was that then mein kampf would be an example of glorifying being straight edge and condemning degeneracy. I mean more books that explore the complex nuances of navigating society but seeing it as inherently a good and worthy thing for your own happiness, even if it might mean cutting corners when it comes to moral integrity and authenticity. Most books i have come across that try to shine a light on social dynamics always do so from a point of shitting on it and thinking you are better for not playing along in a rigged game. I know there is books out there that do talk about how to successfully navigate social dynamics (Machiavelli comes to mind), but i am more upset about the fact that those that do are far and in between and that because of that what i used to read when i was young and malleable was all about not playing the game because that was the superior thing to do and thus i blame books for having fucked me over big time. Ofc that is just a joke, i know there is many other factors but one must admit that it surely does not help that most books are about glorifying being edgy, contrarian and an outsider, no?

>>22680897
>I get that that might be because only outsiders even feel a need to read as a stand in for real social connections.
That and you have to consider the kind of person who will sit down and write a whole novel. Generally, it's not people who are completely content and feel like they don't need to make a comment on society. Personally I like reading books because it gives me a different perspective and this will often come across as 'contrarian'

>not playing the game because that was the superior thing to do and thus i blame books for having fucked me over big time. Ofc that is just a joke
even if it is a joke I fully relate to what you are saying, I have made mistakes by having an outside point of view and not simply conforming. but if you're talking about specifically fiction then I'm not surprised you haven't found what you are looking for. Plenty of non-fiction (machiavelli, how to win friends, 48 laws of power [and those are just the mainstream names]) talk about the unspoken 'rules' and navigating them, but again, putting this into fiction is not so interesting and they are also slightly 'contrarian'.

This is an interesting discussion to me, I hope anons suggest some books for you, but I think the premise of your question is fundamentally flawed because I think it'd be incredibly difficult to write interesting fiction about somebody 'following the rules' and not running into problems due to this without it being a outright satire.

There is also the take that these contrarian characters and stories are the very thing that proves that 'following the rules' is the right thing to do by juxtaposing what a person is like when they do not follow the rules.

>>22680914
Yes, i think this is why i have ended up being unable to enjoy fiction anymore at all and resort to reading exactly the books you listed. What would be less mainstream ones with a similar tone to them?
Its true that it would be boring to just write books about how people play along smoothly. I guess i was wondering about books that have a character arch where the character is an outsider, a contrarian and then realizes the value of playing the social game and doing so successfully. There must be some books like this, no? Someone must have already experienced this and thought about putting it into a book? Or is it truly that only people that have never been part or existed the game write and read fiction? Do you think the catcher in the rye plays into that theme a bit?

>>22680868
kek
finish your book big guy

>>22680923
>catcher in the rye
That was actually the book I was thinking of - I can't think of many normal people that would read that and think 'I want to be Holden' even though his contrarian point of view is fascinating.

>What would be less mainstream ones with a similar tone to them?
Unironically read some philosophy. If you want people who are laser-focused on figuring out the 'right' rules for society and following them you might enjoy Kant or Rousseau. Philosophy has always scratched that 'orderly' itch for me. Be warned that it can be dry, though, and philosophers may also give you the 'contrarian' vibe. I don't read a lot of self-help stuff but it might also be worth exploring for what you are looking for. Biographies of people who represent the values you are seeking might also be a suggestion. But for fiction I am drawing a blank.

>I guess i was wondering about books that have a character arch where the character is an outsider, a contrarian and then realizes the value of playing the social game and doing so successfully. There must be some books like this, no? Someone must have already experienced this and thought about putting it into a book? Or is it truly that only people that have never been part or existed the game write and read fiction?
No, I think you're correct. There is definitely a book like this out there, but I am not sure of any. I'll hang about in this thread because I am also interested, and I'm sure some other anons may have suggestions.

>>22680847
Books are fine but they are indeed another form of reactive being along with being a critic. It’s not our fault, I mean it is but it’s just another symptom of the times.

>OP thinks being a normie and part of the herd is the solution
>he thinks the masses will save him
Not sure what your ultimate goal is here but I don’t think you’re going to find much of a solution here

>>22680939
The thing is that the contrarians are usually right. But being right does not actually pay off in the end. It‘s doing the right thing but paying with your own status and thus success and in the end happiness.
Yes, i have been reading only philosophy and self help books the last decade or so because of this. But it boggles my mind that there is not a bigger range of fiction on the topic to chose from. How can we be so one sided as humans? Actually, it made me think, what if literature written by women is more about this? Because i think the female power IS about seeing trough the social games and playing them well for your own benefit even if it means abandoning moral and the right thing sometimes. Is this why female written fiction is usually seem as shitty? Because it goes agains the outsider narrative and is about the experiences of being borderline immoral for the sake of belonging? Which is the opposite of what the outsider values. And thus he would wave it off as bad and pointless. Because his whole back bone is founded on not playing the rigged game.

>>22680951
The masses will not save anyone. But not belonging wont either. Everyone has to save themselves. And you are not doing yourself a favor by kicking yourself out on purpose. When has authenticity ever truly paid off for you in the long run?

>>22680947
The times being telling people to value doing the right thing and being authentic over their own success? How is that working out for us?

>>22680959
Authenticity and having original thoughts always pays off because I respect myself more and carry myself proudly. The people who see similarly are the ones I care for attracting, nobody else. And by the way nothing could ever change that about me because it’s the way I’m built.
Again I’m not sure what your specific issue is because you didn’t state a scenario or what you want (‘money, love, friendship, etc.) but I think we just live in unfortunate times.
>>22680963
You have to get up and actually do something. Whether you’re a more refined individual or following the herd doesn’t matter if you’re not active. Your solution to reading books seems to be..read different books. I enjoy books too but it seems to an extent we are burying our faces searching for an exit. Everyone is looking for a solution to the times it seems, and as a result they try all these different remedies but it seems like nothing really works.

>>22680982
It only pays off if you do that once you already have gained status. Being authentic and it being beneficial for the person is reserved for those at the top.
I agree that books are not the solution. I just like to read books to keep me on track, as i also actually so things. Kind of like a background soundtrack to my life. But it has to match the mood and so i dont need any of that contrarian self fellating edge babble most fiction is if i actually want to make it some day. Books are like elaborate shitposts from friends and if you do not have the right friends yet to support you in making it, i was hoping there might be books to keep mw company until i do. But yes, maybe that would just be a crutch that would keep me back. Maybe it is time to leave reading fiction behind for good.

>>22680847
pls tell me this qt is real and not AI

>>22681005
Sorry anon, she is my own creation.

>>22680999
I fear I might be projecting a little bit in my previous post so I’m going to try to bring it back to what you originally said. I think that being a contrarian can actually pay off in some situations, for instance the person who has a different way to do business, create, or view the world. Often times it’s the masses who are caught lacking because they don’t take the effort to get a Birds Eye view of things. Anyway just be conscious, don’t dull yourself down too much to fit in. You can get a job anywhere, learn expertise anytime and progress in your idea of success. If you’re young definitely don’t be so jaded that you don’t go out and have some fun with your peers.

>>22681017
Oh yes, i absolutely agree with that. Using novelty as a strategy is a good idea and can pay off. I am just saying that adhering to honesty and authenticity no matter what because it is the moral and right thing to do will cost you socially. And big time.

>>22681010
Man, AI just can't figure out canine teeth

>>22681025
True. They always look off. And the eyes. Oh well, close enough.

>>22681005
can you seriously not tell that it's AI?

>>22680862
yep. you're retarded

>>22681048
A man can dream

No, anon. You just live in a deeply sick civilization.