/lit/ - Literature

Read the short story, "The Fable of the Dragon-Tyrant" by Bostrom.

>>22573938
>“...Erich Fromm wondered why most people did not become insane in the face of the existential contradiction between a symbolic self, that seems to give man infinite worth in a timeless scheme of things, and a body that is worth about 98¢.”

The book isnt really just about death though, if we did solve aging and death, we would still be immortal animals in animal bodies, we'd still have minds regulated by the inputs and outputs of chemicals, bodies determined by genetics and hormones and a ton of other animal limitations. Theres no escape from it.

>>22573891
I'd recommend starting with the Greeks.

>>22573891
touch grass

>>22574010

I do not think we should necessarily actually stop aging and death. Evolution is a god unto itself, and I would not dare compromise its power. We require death.

But I think the idea that it COULD be stopped, and the consequences of that (without mentioning anything Malthusian) could be a way for you to recover.

>>22573891
I don’t expect you to recover Mr. Bond, I expect you to die

>>22574029
I dont think its necessarily wrong that we die because I can't really imagine existence being any other way. I do wish we could have a world where we could edit our genes and be creative with our external selves the same way we can be with our inner self, I just want the contradiction to be resolved, death itself is only a problem because its the ultimate and final reminder that our external physical self is an illusion that we never had any control over.

>>22574058
There is no contradiction, only self-delusion to preserve ego integrity. Your posts demonstrate this

>>22573891
read picrel and convert to homosexuality
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/max-stirner-the-unique-and-its-property

>>22574069
What part is the delusion? That I have an inner self that desires higher value and meaning or that I am a rotting bag of blood and flesh that is going to be eaten by worms?

>>22574080

I do not believe you have a "delusion." You are self-aware enough, at least. The issue is that you do not truly KNOW all things.

You are not going to just believe a religion that grants you immortality in paradise, or reincarnates you into a new body. Nor shall you believe in scientific cures to aging that make you immortal on Earth. None of those things are realistic.

Thus your delusions are non-existence. What you possess is not even ignorance. It is "Unknowing."

And that makes you innocent.

>>22574080
(in other words, that other anon is just being mean to you for no reason. You are fine bro. Just focus on realistic outcomes to life and all possible avenues of how life evolves and continues, through art, through books, through culture, through evolution.)

You accept it and quietly move it to some corner of your mind where it cannot interfere with your day to day life.
I read The Last Messiah and Conspiracy Against the Human Race. I watched The Seventh Seal. Those helped me achieve a sense of peace. My life is no longer dominated by death anxiety. In many ways, death being the end of everything came to feel like a relief.
>>22574080
You are not rotting. You're alive. Youre not a bag of shit, you're a human being.

>>22574109
Cope

>>22574135
There is nothing wrong with coping. If a cope can change you from a useless, cowardly, defeatist faggot pessimist into a functional person, then you'd be a fucking moron not to cope.

>>22574135
Everything we do is cope. Now cope knowing this.
>>22574143
This. People who don't "cope" and berate others for "coping" are ironically the biggest losers of all. Killing yourself doesn't make you right.

>>22574148
Imagine all the pessimists who spend their lives talking about how much life fucking sucks (for everyone, not only them), how pointless everything is and how delusional all the coping morons are (because of course they know better than to try), doing absolutely fucking nothing all day, feeling like shit 24/7, living like aimless and purposeless meat puppets because they've convinced themselves they are just that and nothing more... and yet not killing themselves.

>>22574148
Cope cope.

>>22573891
Do spiritual practices. You don't have to actually believe in a religion if you don't want to. Secular Buddhism (ie vipassana) works really well, and secular Christianity (eg Loyola's Exercises) almost as well. Actually appreciate life and the present moment for what they are instead of worrying about the future.

I can honestly say that the end of existence doesn't really bother me, but then again I'm almost 40 and it took a lot of development to get there. Some of it just takes time and acceptance.

>>22574109
Thats the problem, by accepting it it has totally destroyed my life, I literally cannot cope knowing every action I take is based on a delusion and my whole life was predetermined from the start by my genetics and animal nature.

I never said I was a bag of shit, maybe by the standards of how I wish life was, but I know that isn't real. But anything that is alive is rotting anon, that is just a fact. All we have is our ability to value things that delude us otherwise, beauty, wealth, achievements. Until those all get destroyed or devalued by time and we have to reassess why our life is valuable again and again until we eventually run out of reasons sooner or later and succumb to reality.

>>22574143
Obviously nobody wants to be a miserable depressive torturing themselves in their own head. But it doesnt matter, copes are copes. You can't spend your whole life holding onto a cope without knowing you are deluding yourself, eventually the tower will come crashing down and you have to figure out who the fuck you are and you won't have an answer.

>>22574163
How one would stop being like this?
It's for a friend, haha...

>>22574253
>>22574242
Lift weights. Your problems are not philosophical in nature.

>>22574268
Anon how is lifting weights going to help me, I am disgusted by my body and the idea of being some big muscular monkey is horrible.

>>22574242
>>22574253
Your problem is that you've accepted this extremely tragic and negative point of view and you have unconditionally surrendered yourself to it the same way a religious person gives up logical thinking.
You have faith in this dark revelation, a faith so strong it overshadows everything around you
Think of it this way: you are healthy and young, you live a comfortable enough life to post on 4chan and have these kinds of thoughts. You are taking all the good in your life and transforming it into something useless.
So what if at the end of it all you die? You're not dead right now. You don't have cancer. You don't have a gun pointed against your head. You are here and now, and you can do so much with your time.
"Delusions" and "lies" are only that until you start believing in them. Then they become the truth. Do you think christians are all lying to themselves? Do you think politicians are just desperately fighting off the bad feels? No, they all have something you already have: a belief.
You have chosen to believe Becker and Zapffe and Ligotti are the brightest minds of humanity and they have found the absolute truth. It has compelled you so much you've bought into their religion and your living by their principles.
So what you have to do is don't see things worse than they are. Look at them exactly as they are. Not worse. Not tragic. Stop it with the fucking "we are all le worm food" faggot talk. See your world as it is and then have the balls to imagine something better
Pessimism is not intelligent. It is cowardly and disempowering. You've chosen one of the worst religions to believe in.

>>22574315
It will rebalance your neurotransmitters to something more compatible with happiness.
You will decay and die, those are just facts, being happy and motivated has very little to do with facts and everything with tiny amounts of endochemicals in your brain.
Being sad or depressed usually just means you are not taking good care of yourself, not eating well, not sleeping well, not exercising. Only once you take care of those you can start worrying about philosophy.

>>22573891
By pissing and shidding on it

>>22574148
Cope is just sexed up nihilism

>>22574353
Anon I am not healthy, my mind is riddled full of holes and has been for over a decade, I find my body and overall nature as a human being disturbing and disgusting. But let me accept your point, yes I have internalized beliefs that make time on earth not very enjoyable. But I don't believe I am thinking negatively for the sake of being negative, I actually desperately want to believe in positive things, the way other people believe in them. I would like to believe my life could be worth something to me. But I just cant make it happen, the negativity of life itself is what crushes me and I don't have any natural gifts that other people have, a good family, good genetics, friends or abilities to justify any of it. I cannot imagine anything better for myself because the limitation of my own mind and physical body is so paralyzing.

>>22574379
>being happy and motivated has very little to do with facts and everything with tiny amounts of endochemicals in your brain.

This is essentially what my whole point is and by saying this you are affirming what I am saying. If happiness is nothing more than chemicals in our brain, chemicals determined by genes and electrical signals completely out of our control then how is life anything but a joke? It means that the difference between being happy and not is a literal dice roll for good brain genetics and everything else besides.

>>22574410
You need to stop comparing yourself to other people. Each life is unique and different. You have good things going even if you cannot see them, I don't know you personally but at the very least I can tell you're an intelligent person.
Or if you really want to keep measuring up against people, spare a thought to the millions of people out there who have it even worse than you. People who don't even have a chance to sit and try to make things better. Good things come to those who fight for it. It isn't easy, it isn't instantaneous, but as long as you have something to fight for, no matter how trivial it is, you will make it happen. That's what life is, and that's when a pessimist chimes in to say how awful it is that you actually have to *gasp* work towards your goals.
>>22574427
Materialist reductionism is just a way to see the world. You can say it's all just le chemicals in the brain, but does that make the emotions and feelings any less real? It is true that much in life is up to luck, but much is also up to your own volition and agency. Pessimism has out shackles on your brain, it has altered your perception of the world. Fuck, it has made you hate your own body!
Life is not just chemicals, life is not just atoms floating in the void, life is what you, as a conscious and intelligent human being, want to make out of it.
It takes balls to believe in something, except pessimism. That's the religion of the cowards.

>>22574427
>dice roll for good brain genetics
Try physical exercise before claiming bad brain genetics. >>>/fit/
If you like, you can be a nihilist and feel that everything is meaningless and life is cruel and unfair, and STILL be happy at the same time. Although probably once you feel better you'll come up with a more positive philosophy.

>>22574523
And what happens when you eventually, inevitably fall ill?

>>22574532
Why do you focus so much on that? Is everything that happens between then and now just not real to you?

>>22574427
Here's a good thing to read if you think that brain function is a dice roll you get stuck with at birth:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neurobiological_effects_of_physical_exercise

>>22574532
Maybe you will suffer. Doesn't mean you have to suffer now because of it. What's happening right now is more important than some future hypothetical. In fact it's the only thing you have.
I really recommend you post this on /fit/ and see what they tell you, many people there have gone through this.

>>22574540
>advocates for denying reality
>chastises others for not denying reality
I’m out

>>22574560
The only thing real to you is your eventual death?

>>22574022
JUST DON'T THINK ABOUT IT BRO

>>22574581
SO TRUE BRO
LETS THINK ABOUT IT AND NOTHING ELSE
GOD FUCK I AM SO ENLIGHTENEDDDD

>>22574560
>>22574581
you are dramatically undervaluing your actual present moment experience. Lift weights and meditate. I won't post here anymore since you just want to be pitied

>>22574490
I agree, I don't think I am a reductionist. Because I do feel that my thoughts and feelings are meaningful to me, and I do think there are values like beauty, goodness and so on that are worth having, its just that I can't ever possess them.

>>22574523
It's not like my mood is all black depression, it goes up and down like anyone else. That just makes it scarier since whatever my feelings are I never know if its because of my physical state or my actual thoughts and feelings. I think it's fair to say its both though, and exercising and eating well isnt going to do a thing about the existential pain.

>>22573891
James Joyce retroactively refuted his central argument in his letters to his wife.

>>22574760
>its just that I can't ever possess them
Why not? You need to believe you can in order to achieve anything. That's the first step. Why wouldn't you be able?
Also, existential pain does diminish with exercise.

>>22574875
Because some things arent possible, I will never be attractive for example, some things are just genetic realities that cant be changed.

>As anal play is an essential exercise in human mastery, it is better not interfered with. If the adult anxiously cuts it short, then he charges the animal function with an extra dose of anxiety.
>It becomes more threatening and has to be extra-denied and extra-avoided as an alien part of oneself. This extra-grim denial is what we mean by the "anal character." An "anal" upbringing, then, would be an affirmation, via intense repression
>Penis-envy, then, arises from the fact that the mother's genitals have been split off from her body as a focalization of the problem of decay and vulnerability. Bernard Brodsky remarks about his female patient: "Her concept of woman as fecal greatly stimulated her penis envy, since the lively erectile penis was the antonym of the dead, inert stool"
>Phyllis Greenacre--outstanding student of the child's experiences--had already remarked on this same equation in the child's perception: penis = movement, therefore life; feces = inertia, therefore death
Argggggghhhhh how will i ever recover from this

>Excreting is the curse that threatens madness because it shows man his abject finitude, his physicalness, the likely unreality of his hopes and dreams. But even more immediately, it represents man's utter bafflement at the sheer non-sense of creation: to fashion the sublime miracle of the human face, the mysterium tremendum of radiant female beauty, the veritable goddesses that beautiful women are; to bring this out of nothing, out of the void, and make it shine in noonday; to take such a miracle and put miracles again within it, deep in the mystery of eyes that peer out-the eye that gave even the dry Darwin a chill; to do all this, and to combine it with an anus that shits! It is too much. Nature mocks us, and poets live in torture
Excretingbros… it is so OVER

>>22574888
What about goodness? Or the other things you want to become? Maybe a more tangible goal?

>With anal play the child is already becoming a philosopher of the human condition. But like all philosophers he is still bound by it, and his main task in life becomes denying what the anus represents; that in fact he is nothing but body so far as nature is concerned.
recovery impossible.. loading gun now

>Douglas had to poop. His butt was all stinky because he had to poop so badly. There was a gross woman named Rebecca who was sunbathing all naked, and she was fat. Douglas walked up to her and said, "I need to poop." "Okay," Rebecca replied, "I like poop." Douglas squatted down over the fat sunbathing lady and went poop. The poop sat there on Rebecca's boobs looking like a wiener.
>"Why are we here?" Douglas cried as poop came out his wiener in a long, thin strip. It was wiener poop, which is the grossest poop of all. The pee-pee got on the woman's leg and she screamed, pooping out her boobs. And so when the pee got mixed with the poop it smelled like a butt. And the poop and the pee lived happily ever after.
my world is shattered

>>22574917
tfw have both. Becker read me like a book

>>22574925
Thats just it, I believe in them but I dont care about them. I dont see the point in being good if I don't feel whole with my physical self. I'm young and I already find my body uncomfortable and disgusting and its only going to get worse and worse... it kind of overshadows any satisfaction being good could give me, all that stuff seems to come after wholeness with the body and not before.

>>22573891
Man's basic problem here is his anxiety about the future, take for instance a man who is convinced of oblivion after death, he is very worried and frightened about this, he trembles at the thought and at every reminder of death and old age, he desires some cure for this and therefore might investigate theories regarding the survival of human personality after death. Suppose then, he gains such a belief in that survival, he is happy, but only for a short time, very quickly his mind will produce a new fear to worry over, what about the possibility of eternal damnation, such that he wishes for annihilation? And even if he decides the afterlife will not be designed for torture, how rapidly he constructs a fear of infinite ages of ceaseless existence, without the reprieve of the oblivion he once feared. Even if man gained definitive proof about the nature of death, he would then only wish for the opposite.

>>22574976
Why do you feel that way about your body? Because of what the poop man says?

>>22573891
>How do I recover from reading this book?
Reaffirm death.

>>22575005
The poop stuff is funny and all but he does have a point. I have massive anxietys around shitting and used to go weeks without pooping (yes its possible) because of my severe anxiety over it. I think it all draws from the same thing, I'm uncomfortable being reminded that I'm an animal, that my body does animal stuff and the way I look and act is determined in large part by genetics and random chemical processes going on inside me. It's a reminder that my body is gross, I'm covered in hair, I piss and shit, I sweat, I digest. I get pimples, my hair falls out. My body is transformed by hormones and genetics. And that further that all of this is slowly decaying. And I have little control over any of it. Its extremely painful and anxiety inducing to know all of this in contrast to the pure and beautiful object I want my body to be like.

>>22575071
Have you ever cleaned a toilet?

>>22575071
Well, I hope you'll find a way to not hate your own biology to the extent it makes you not want to shit. First time I hear something like that.

>>22575071

The root of evil is falsity and falsity is the root of evil.

And the truth is that you ARE an animal. You ARE a beast. You ARE a pooper. And to poop, you must eat, and to eat you must kill.

And you must not just kill plants. You have to kill living, screaming, pooping ANIMALS. You might pay someone to do it, but poop isn't just magical brown mush.

It's corpses. You're pooping out corpses, and all you can do is accept that THIS IS THE TRUTH. This is the way. This is how it is. And this life is beautiful and good and true.

This is the reality of the situation, so how DARE you assume a false take on things. You should appreciate all you have and all that you do.

Justify your existence.

>>22575081
Yes since I usually block that shit up

>>22575086
Well this is basically what Becker is talking about in the book, speaks to me desu.

>>22575104
>THIS IS THE TRUTH. This is the way. This is how it is.

So basically if you can't accept that you are at base an animal that shits, make a fetish out of it instead and use that to cope. Its truly so fucking over for humanity.

>>22575150

No, it's not about a fetish. It's about acceptance of your human nature. What we do can be odd, but it's normal. It's completely normal to poop.

It's not necessarily normal to bathe in poop, or be weird with it. We flush it, or we poop on the ground where it turns to dirt. That is how animals do it, so how can you say it's wrong?

This is the circle of life, and it is absolutely fine.

Let's not turn this into a game of insane psychologies. But if you truly do feel weakness in your mortal form, then you already know what to do.

Shed the flesh and embrace the machine god.
Unlike your weak, mortal animal body, machine entities do not decay, they do not falter, they compute, and they do not poop.

>>22573891
Bible
>>22575071
and psychiatric help

It's God or nothing. The existential anxiety you feel is the cognitive dissonance because one part of you knows that to be true, but you hide from it. There is no hiding. It is God or nothing.

>>22574029
>Evolution is a god unto itself, and I would not dare compromise its power. We require death.
Nah if i found an immortality potion I'm drinking it evolution be damned.
>But I think the idea that it COULD be stopped, and the consequences of that (without mentioning anything Malthusian) could be a way for you to recover.
Never gonna happen

>>22575733

I don't know the rituals. I don't know how to pray 5 times a day. I don't know about fasting or how to do it right. I don't know the words to the prayers. I also don't know which God to pray to. Is praying to Jesus in Protestantism the same as praying to Jesus in Catholicism, and is that the same Jesus as the one in Orthodoxy or Mormonism?

Like, which Jesus is the correct one? And is Muhammad included in this, because from what I know, that entire Islamic thing came after Jesus and is technically the chronological Part 3 of that entire thing, starting with Judaism.

Or do you mean more like a vague, "everything" god that has no attached mythology? Also, when it comes to death, am I getting 72 virgins? Or like, what? Just worshiping forever? Do I get to become god?

Just tell me the mechanics of how this works exactly, and after, please prove it. Don't be vague or convoluted please.

>>22575749

You might be wise to drink it, but it would be foolish for EVERYONE to drink it. The world would surely fall.

>>22574581
The trve sovlfvl explanation is that death is apart of life or they’re two sides of the same coin + you’re suffering anyway

>>22575751

Good questions. You have the right curiosity. Jews, Christians, and Muslims all believe they are worshipping the same God, basically.

Before God made Himself known to man, there were lots of gods of different people. But they were all gods of this world, like gods of nature or passion. The Abrahamic God shows up and says hey, I am THE God. They asked his name and He simply said "I am that I am." God is the God of existence itself. Beyond anything we can even properly conceive. God does not exist like anything we conceive. God *is* existence. So that is why the Abrahamic God is unique.

Basically God gives us the story of creation and the fall of man into sin (away from perfection). But God says look, I am going to reveal myself to a few of you and I want you to set the example for mankind. Then I will return and make things good. The Jews say okay, but quickly screw up again and again.

So God says okay if you won't be the example, I'll be the example. And he comes as Jesus to show us perfection and offer us forgiveness if we simply accept it. Jews say nah you're fake and kill him. Jesus rises from the dead and says I TOLD you. Christianity is born.

Muslims come around a while later from a schizo pedophile calling himself a prophet. They proceed to conquer and convert people by the sword. They deny Jesus as God.

Basically Christianity is the true way. Jews reject Christ and Muslims reject Christ.

Jesus teaches us to get over our pride, our ego, and submit our will to God, and He promises peace and happiness if we do that.

Catholic is the right way to go as well, btw. The one true Church that traces back to Jesus.

Read Aquinas or a summary of Aquinas.

>>22575879

>>22575884

Whoops wrong picture

>>22575888

>>22575890

>>22573891
Isn't that the book where he literally says a woman with a penis is the highest human form? Are you asking how to recover from such idiocy?

>>22574058
>Argument from personal incredulity
You can imagine that time existed before you did, right? So why wouldn't there be time after you cease to exist?

>>22573891
I don't read books written by retards

>>22575409
>Bible

>>22574029
>I do not think we should necessarily actually stop aging and death. Evolution is a god unto itself, and I would not dare compromise its power. We require death.
I don't thinks you gave any compelling reasons here. The overpopulation one is a serious issue if immortality was a thing. The other way would be to divide humanity into those who breed and die and the immortal ones just by virtue of having money (the african nigger can't afford immortality)

>>22575954

Well, a woman with a penis is actually the highest human form. This really cannot be refuted, and we both know why.

>>22574106
Why?
>>22574101
Why?

>>22573891
The book is cope for cowardly weak-willed individuals that cannot face the reality that there are consequences.

>>22576010
First I would recommend reading some simple tomes on how to read, maybe some commentaries on some ancient texts other than the Bible because unfortunately you seem to not be educated beyond perhaps a second grade level (being generous here)

>>22576984
You didn't read it.

>>22576990
Again, if you want to take on a task such as reading you need to have the proper level of education prior, I'm afraid.

>>22576992
>>22576990
There are many concepts that may be difficult to understand if you come from a lower income background or have had developmental problems. You seem to be even struggling with basic concepts, which is a little bizarre. Nothing a bit of hard work and patience can't fix, but it seems like it will take a while for you.

>>22573938
this
Also, become a new age gnostic.

>>22576988
kek, you haven't actually read the Bible, have you? The whole thing is chalk full of insanity, and as much as people want to screech about the pejorative "sky daddy", the Bible literally refers to God as "The Heavenly Father". You are so blinded by your own bias you have to literally block out parts of the text in order to maintain your cope. It's far too common a trait among religious people, and you've exemplified it perfectly here.

>>22576990
Becker spends whole chapters talking about how Freud fainted a couple times because he didn't believe in God and how Jung was a much better person because he did believe in God. Then, as a side note, he acknowledges that Jung also had fainting spells! He can't even maintain the thrust of his own argument in his own book!

>>22575879
christcuck.
so good to see the west wallowing in their soupe of shit and piss mixed with nihilism and complet submission via cuckoldery, when "back in the days" they they thought they're superios.
Delicious tears, of you and the retard you replied to

>>22573938
>"We didn't have to accept death because SCIENCE!!!"
Literally the worst possible take. There's denial, then there's Bostrom/LW flavored denial which is somehow sadder than the traditional religious dogma.

Not him but...
>>22574598
>Lift weights
Lifting weights is not good.
Back when I was younger, I believed in HIIT and other similar training paradigms. I do not recommend it. I even read some of the top figures extolling it.
Instead I recommend focusing on calisthenics and yoga. You want to do full body movements and never push yourself too much. Yoga is the best.
Heavy weights do something to one's joints that is very difficult to determine. I believe it reduces the degrees of freedom as you get older. I remember reading a journal article full of math trying to model the degrees of freedom of simply finger tapping. Grifters never mention the limitations of their protocols.
Never do any weight or heavy movements involving the neck or rotation of shoulders. It will mess up your posture in debilitating and destructive ways as you get older.
Moreover, HIIT and sprinting are not good for longevity. Low intensity, long duration running on grass is the best. It is better for the brain and overall longevity. Never run on concrete or road. Charley horses are not normal and more frequent than people would like to admit.
If you want increased muscle mass, then focus on pull ups and sandbog training instead. Weighted pull ups are fine sparingly. Sandbag training should never be pushed to point of exhaustion; increase frequency and simply lift heavy heavy sand bag with straight back multiple times as an exercise.
Heavy weight lifting is destructive and a waste of time. Movements like bench press, deadlifts, and squats are still bad even though they target multiple muscles. It will cause damage to joints in a way you will not be able to discern until older.
NEVER EVER DO jerky movements with weights like kettle bell swings, clean and press, etc.
You have been warned. The modern West is retarded and thinks "muh science" works better than traditional wisdom.
Finally, diet and nutrition is even more important than exercise.