/lit/ - Literature

Who?

>>22459597
>who
He published more than 90 volumes of fiction, essays, poems and plays in his lifetime,[1]:29 (I.A.92) with a modest amount of material published posthumously. He gained a name in the 1910s as a great writer in the English-speaking world. Best known today are the 1924 fantasy novel, The King of Elfland's Daughter, and his first book, The Gods of Pegāna, which depicts a fictional pantheon. Many critics feel his early work laid grounds for the fantasy genre.

>>22459542
I love what I have read by Lord Dunsany, but I've only read through about half of the collection In the Land of Time, and Other Fantasy Tales. I'd love to get more into his material though. I'm a pretty big fan of Algernon Blackwood, Clark Ashton Smith, and such as well, so I can absolutely appreciate what the guy has done for weird fiction.
While his influence is pretty large, but I'm not surprised that retards like >>22459597 exist who haven't heard of him because the average /lit/ user only knows modern pop shit and the 30 classics they can barely even prattle off about.

>>22459646
Great to hear. I read KED first and In the Land of Time (Penguin) was my second. Honestly, I'd say that Joshi's selection is fairly weak overall in that collection. A much better understanding of Dunsany's work can be obtained by looking at the Time and the Gods omnibus. The stories from A Dreamer's Tales and The Sword of Welleran are particularly good. But yes, I'm also a fan of Blackwood and CAS as well. CAS was my second favourite writer until I discovered Dunsany. As for the Weird fiction category, Dunsany is a strange blend of traditional archaic fantasy and Weird fiction. He's quite frankly sui generis and can't be put in any book. He wrote so much over his life, and all of it varies widely in tone and style. He even wrote sci-fi at the end of his career. In my thesis, I'm trying to align him more with the ideals and outlook of Tolkien in opposition to someone like Lovecraft. I'm liable to ramble here, but my entire argument in discussing the Pegana mythology is to suggest that this work isn't based in the same kind of nihilistic perspective that Lovecraft espouses. Throughout the study the goal has been to show that Dunsany had a strong and affirmative love of nature and life. Yes, he was cynical and even pessimistic, but he was no Lovecraft! As for his popularity, I sometimes forget that he's a relatively obscure author. I suppose that's what happens when you do doing a remote degree on a single author like this. Funnily enough, Dunsany was highly regarded in his day, mostly due to his plays. It's a shame that he's now practically unknown given that, as I suggest, he has so much in common with Tolkien.

>>22459672
CAS was my favourite writer*

>>22459672
can't be put in any box*
Typos galore here.

>>22459542
Which editions should I get for his short stories Time and the Gods by Gollancz or In the Land of Time by Penguin Classics or the Dover books?

>>22459672
Oh I literally just read this after posting my question.

For those interested in starting with Dunsany, here's how I'd approach it:
Read some of his short stories, which can easily be found online. I particularly recommend stories such as 'How One Came, As Was Foretold, to the City of Never, 'Poltarnees, Beholder of Ocean, 'The Wonderful Window', and 'The Field'. That shows Dunsany's range quite well, I think. The interesting thing about Dunsany is that he's primarily a short story writer. His work is almost entirely focused on blending fantasy and reality, especially in his twinned collections 'The Book of Wonder' and 'The Last Book of Wonder'. Next, if you're feeling up to it, you might try Dunsany's first ever fantasy writings, which took the form of the Pegana mythology. This is one of the first mythopoeic fantasy cosmologies. The first collection, 'The Gods of Pegana' is essentially a series of poetic vignettes and oracular sayings. The second collection, 'Time and the Gods', moves into a more developed narrative style. Both collections are extremely poetic and archaic, so it can be a challenge to read, especially as the world-building isn't consistent. Dunsany did have a strong vision related to nature here, but that's not my point in this post. After both the Pegana mythology and his miscellaneous fantasy-reality shorts, Dunsany turned to novel writing in the 1920s. Most people know him for The King of Elfland's Daughter. This novel is considered one of the first works of modern fantasy, and it largely took from the tales of Morris and MacDonald. There are many, many connections to be made here between KED and Tolkien's Lord of the Rings. The novel concerns the conflict between the prosaic settlment of Erl and the realm of faery or Elfland. Just the basics here, but I hope this was of interest.

>>22459672
I wish you much luck in your thesis, and I'm very grateful for the recommendations, I'll pick them up on my next book run. I like to build collections of everything written by the author, if I like their short stories enough. So, I'll probably end up looking like a complete nut case when I die and people look through my stuff.
>I'm trying to align him more with the ideals and outlook of Tolkien in opposition to someone like Lovecraft
I honestly did not align him with Lovecraft. When reading over it, I wasn't thinking Tolkien (or really anyone in particular), now when you just mention it, it makes a lot of sense to. I mean, we get mythos and everything. The guy zooms out and zooms in pretty well, for me. The world building was amazing, of what I did read, plus some of it really stuck with me. I mean I stopped reading the book about 3 years ago and I think about the words "made the the sign of Mung" and it made someone die... or about the sleeping God being played to sleep or existence will just blip right out? Damn, that stuff carried well into the 21st century.
I honestly thought that Lord Dunsany was a lot more popular originally, but we run into these issues where there must just not be enough time or memory for people to know who is important. Another example would be Bradbury (My wife's favorite author that we've been building a big collection of.) who impacted all forms of media. The only thing they know him for is 451, which is fine but is hardly his best work. (It's great. It really is. Dandelion Wine, however...) anyways, yeah, man. maybe you'll end up helping build a revival of Lord Dunsany interest.

>>22459747
Also, you might read this paragraph from Dunsany's autobiography, Patches of Sunlight. This will give you an idea of the type of stories Dunsany wrote, as well as his outlook on the world. Here he is writing about an experience in his childhood:

If ever I have written of Pan, out in the evening, as though I had really seen him, it is mostly a memory of that hare. If I thought that I was a gifted individual whose inspirations came sheer from outside earth and transcended common things, I should not write this book; but I believe that the wildest flights of the fancies of any of us have their homes with Mother Earth [...]. The source of all imagination is here in our fields, and Creation is beautiful enough for the furthest flights of the poets. What is called realism only falls far behind these flights because it is too meticulously concerned with the detail of material; mere inventories of rocks are not poetry; but all the memories of crags and hills and meadows and woods and sky that lie in a sensitive spirit are materials for poetry, only waiting to be taken out, and to be laid before the eyes of such as care to perceive them.

>>22459762
Thanks. I appreciate it. I also wrote out a little primer as well just for fun: >>22459747
When you say Dunsany "zooms out and zooms in", that's a good way of describing his transition from a cosmic register to an earthly register. That's how I frame it, anyway. Dunsany began with the Pegana mythology from a quite non-anthropocentric, cosmological perspective and eventually wrote stories set wholly in the real world. He covers a lot of ground! Oh, honestly, I could talk about the Pegana mythology all day here. You're write when you say that the mythology suits the 21st Century. His work is quite modern since it utilises contemporary philosophical and scientific ideas. But he's also interested in returning to the past, employing what Joshi calls 'aesthetic animism'. Anyway, I'm rambling now. Bradbury is a good example of an author who seems more well known than he actually is. People have read F451, indeed, but Dandelion Wine is another matter. In fact, I'm sure most people haven't even read Something Wicked! As for your last sentence about drumming up interest for Dunsany--well, I hope so. The funny part is that there is not only a limited number of Dunsany stories out there, but most of them don't cover his engagement with the natural world in any real detail. I hope that my thesis covers several new areas.

>>22459763
Would you have a recommendation for someone who wanted to get his hands on his entire written works? I know there is a lot, so if this question is way too difficult to answer due to things being scattered or it ends up taking too much time, feel free to ignore this, but I'd love to add him to my archive/family library.

>>22459803
Sadly, his most of his work is out of print. He wrote a staggering amount, and even when it comes to his novels, things become obscure and a bit dodgy quickly. There's a new book by Joshi and Schwietzer that essentially functions as one long bibliography. Most of Dunsany's work is basically unavailable. Definitely not in kind of 'Complete Works' book. Here's the description to give you an idea:

Over the course of a career that spanned more than five decades, Dunsany wrote thousands of stories, plays, novels, essays, poems, and reviews, and his work was translated into more than a dozen languages. Today, Dunsany’s work is experiencing a renaissance, as many of his earlier works have been reprinted and much attention has been paid to his place in the history of fantasy and supernatural literature. This bibliography is a revision of the landmark volume published in 1993, which first charted the full scope of Dunsany’s writing. This new edition not only brings the bibliography up to date, listing the dozens of new editions of Dunsany’s work that have appeared in the last two decades and the wealth of criticism that has been written about him, but also records many obscure publications in Dunsany’s lifetime that have not been previously known or identified. In all, the bibliography has been expanded by at least thirty percent. Among this new material are dozens of uncollected short stories, newspaper articles, and poems, and many books, essays, and reviews of Dunsany’s work published over the past century.

What books did Dunsany like to read (or books that influenced him)? Haggard?

Do you think this applies to Dunsany as well? Writing fantasy as a response to his experience in war like Shippey claims Tolkien did?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Great_War_and_Middle-earth#Responding_to_war_with_fantasy

>>22459800
Oh nice, I'll look through the primer and see what I can get my hands on. I have a hard time with screens because I spend so much time in front of them (I'm in academia too, but my area is mathematics/cryptography.) so I try to snag books when/where I can. At worst, I'll print them out and bind them. I really appreciate it, I'm excited about all of this new information I'm getting here.
>>22459822
That's depressing, I hope that we'll see a mighty effort in bringing a lot of these out of print works back in, especially with this renaissance. Not to go completely off topic here, but I think the fact that a lot of modern books aren't really good helps. Maybe it's a good thing, too. There's a lot of really great authors that existed in the 17th and 18th century that are just going completely under the radar, despite being big deals in literature.
I need to leave the thread and get back to work. I really appreciate this thread though, best thread on /lit/ in ages.

>>22459838
Dunsany read a lot since he inherited the Dunsany library, which I can attest is pretty impressive. He read the classics and put a lot of classical allusions into his work, especially in the Pegana mythology. There's a particular moment when one character shouts "Alatta! Alatta!" which is a reference to the Anabasis. Dunsany was far more heavily involved with Orientalism though. All his works are infused with Eastern influences, though it's most noticeable in Pegana. He was very much influenced by Swinburne. The title 'Time and the Gods' comes from a Swinburne poem. Being Irish, Celtic mythology is strong as well. He was a friend of Yeats, though, strangely, his plays didn't have a distinctly Irish cast until much later on. Tennyson is a major one as well. He references Tennyson in his autobiography and KED also mentions the 'horns of Elfland'. If this paragraph seems messy and haphazard, it's because all of these associations just sprung to mind. Dunsany was very eclectic and a bit of an odd character who went his own way. He drank from many springs. There are loads more, but I'm sure you get the idea.

>>22459852
Oh, very much so! Great link. My first two chapters make these kinds of connections between the Pegana mythology and The Silmarillion. Both narratives are essentially mythic expositions for the arrival of the human age, which brings with it the diminishment of nature. There are so many interesting thematic similarities that people don't seem to have picked up on. I mean, Dunsany and Tolkien both used the symbolism of iron representing war and industry, which is fairly obvious, but they approach it in a way that accords with Horkheimer and Adorno's critique of modernity. If you know anything about Tolkien's distinction between magic and enchantment, both authors understood this well. In the anthropocene, there is no room for plurality and incommensurability! Sorry, I realise I'm going off on one here, but it is entertaining to discuss my ideas with others for a change.

>>22459854
Thanks. I really appreciate your comments. It's just great to discuss my project and ideas with people. I've only done this with my supervisors for the past year, and only one of them is an expert on fantasy (CS Lewis). As for modern books, I've always felt this as well. There are so many older authors who deserve our attention. That's why I read books from the 19th century almost exclusively for a year at one point!

>>22459890
Don't be sorry. Mythopoeia is something I'm definitely interested in and trying to learn more about.
This article has been a big influence on me personally:
https://gwern.net/doc/fiction/science-fiction/2015-mirante-thesubcreationtheoryofjrrtolkien.html
Also, what about medievalism? Was that not as influential on Dunsany as Tolkien?

>>22459944
Sub-creation is a major part of my thesis, especially in chapter two. The theory of sub-creation ties everything together for Tolkien and his understanding of nature, wonder and the critique of power. I also talk about Tolkien's metaphysics as well, particularly how the Ainulindale is based upon Plotinian conceptions, which helps Tolkien avoid world-denying Gnostic dualism. As for medievalism, the influence of this on Dunsany is definitely clearest in KED. As I said somewhere else, he was very much influenced by Morris, who was, of course, one of the primary medieval revivalists. Erl is very much an idealised Morrisean medieval community. Dunsany, like Morris, was definitely critiquing the Victorian industrialist ethos.

I'm somewhat tempted to post my YouTube channel, in which I review books and discuss Dunsany at length. The videos on Dunsany are quite old and predate the start of my thesis writing, sadly, although they might still be of value. Good idea? Maybe not.

>>22459944
>gwern

>>22460036
Gwern didn't write the article, he just archived it.

>>22460030
I'd like to see it.

>>22460078
OP here. I'm not sure exactly what Gwern is, but it is clear that the article is quite out of place for the website as a whole. It's a strong article. Wholeheartedly approve.

>>22460084
Well, at the risk of derailing the thread and inviting mean-spirited people: https://www.youtube.com/@thitherword/videos

>>22460095
For the record, I plan to do an in-depth discussion on Dunsany in the next few weeks.

>>22460089
He's someone from LessWrong.
>>22460095
I subscribed.

>>22460124
Ah, much appreciated, mate. The video frequency has gone down recently, but I'll have all the time in the world in about 10 days when I, hopefully, submit my thesis. Also, I can apologise for the very low quality videos in the beginning. You might check out my first very first video though, which just so happens to be about The King of Elfland's Daughter. I get emotional just thinking about that book.

>>22460127
can only apologise*

>>22459542
Fun fact: The current Lord Dunsany is a metalhead who is conserving the manor's lands from illegal hunters. He gives tours around his land and possibly around the manor as well where Lord Dunsansy (the writer) used to compose his works if you ask

>>22460127
I watched it. The excerpts made me feel Sehnsucht. That's something I look for in art.

>>22460198
Indeed. I've met him, as I said in the OP. You can see a video on my channel of one of his tours.

>>22460214
Excellent. Thanks. His prose is very lyrical and based in Romantic desire. The novel is also less plot-oriented and based entirely on contemplating life, rediscovering wonder and exploring how different intermediate characters experience the two realms of Erl and Elfland.

>>22460127
I'm the CAS dork back for a few, just having lunch and wanted to bump the thread. I subscribe too and I just glanced over about me on your site. I'm pretty happy you exist, man.

>>22460219
Oh sorry. I have the habit to skim through long posts. How is he in person? I would like to hang out with him since I'm fascinated by a metalhead aristocrat who's also into conserving the ecosystem. Does he you show you around the manor as well?

>>22460226
I hope it's a good lunch. It's late at night where I am. Thanks for the kind words. You know, I'm always hesitant to post my channel, which naturally has links to my site and whatnot, but it's always worth connecting with new people. Funnily enough, this is the first time I've been on 4chan in three years. It's a toxic place most of the time, but it has its moments.

>>22459639
never heard of him. should have written your school essay about a real author like GRRM kiddo, hope you get an F

>>22460236
He was very likeable. Not your typical aristocrat by any stretch of the imagination, as you've already hinted at yourself. He knows his ecology as well despite not coming from that background. I was very impressed, I have to say. As for the castle tour, that was led by another person, an expert in the history of the castle itself. I found the actual castle tour to be a bit lacking if I'm being honest, but it was nice seeing Dunsany's library. The rewilding tour was a whopping three and a half hours long. Very much worth the money.

>>22460241
>I'm always hesitant to post my channel
I understand, I hope there are no ramifications for it, because I'm glad you did because I'd like to see things progress.
>this is the first time I've been on 4chan in three years
"You can never leave" lol. Honestly, I check here every now and here, but I started coming back more because someone posted my shelves that I had posted on an imageboard that I run and another person linked me to it, then I just started coming on every now and then to see if I can find a cool thread. It's rare but it happens.

>>22460243
I do often feel bad that I didn't choose to write about GRRM instead. The grim darkness of his grimy dark stories would surely show that I'm a deep and serious intellectual. All the references to shitting and pissing and war and sex would also give me that edge to impress my supervisors. In all seriousness though, I would like to post this critique of GRRM from Dr Patrick Curry, who is one of my favourite thinkers. Disclaimer: I also wrote for him.

"Martin’s stories concentrate relentlessly on the opposite of enchantment in all respects: violence, cruelty, misogyny and power (political, ethnic, sexual). It fascinates some of us and can even enchant as skillful narrative. However, we are apparently also supposed to respect it more ‘real’. But are wonder, delight and kindness any less real than squalid power-ploys? And why is nihilism truer than Tolkien’s qualified affirmation of life?" from Art and Enchantment: How Wonder Works.

>>22460243
>GRRM
literally who? I hope you walk in on someone wearing your mother's skin like a costume and they ground you for two weeks, faggot. Don't look under your bed.

>>22460252
Oh, I would prefer if he himself guided you but that's understandable.
Does he like his great-grandfather's works?

>>22460279
I throw cum rags under my bed, enjoy the smell fag

>>22460285
>implying I'm not the dreaded mushroom
Dumb degenerate nig

>>22460282
To be clear, he does guide you through the rewilding tour. So, that's one of the main things I wanted to ask. I only had a brief chance to speak to him--I regret not being more upfront and asking him more questions--but it seems that he has read the elder Lord Dunsany's work, although not the very old stories. I think he said he wasn't able to get into the Pegana mythology. He has read Don Rodriguez though, which I haven't done yet. Sadly, I wasn't quite able to tease out whether his interest in nature derived from reading LD's fiction or not. Still, it was nice meeting him.

>>22460279
>>22460285
>>22460290
Ah, 4chan. I'm reminded why I left three years ago. Funny how the first mention of GRRM results in these kinds of posts. In all seriousness, can we refrain from this? It is tedious and childish.

>>22460296
You had a brief opportunity to talk to him despite that he guides you through the whole rewilding tour which is nearly 4 hours? Does he only guide you to an extent? Or perhaps you don't have many chances to talk to him personally since there were more people on the tour? I try to remember to ask what is the reason behind his interest in nature I ever meet him.

>>22460277
Tom Shippey said Tuf Voyaging was good.

>>22460332
*if I ever meet him

>>22460332
The rewilding tour was undertaken with a group of about fifteen or more people, so it wasn't really the time to ask questions about Dunsany's fiction. Also, Randal had to get round the entire estate, which is extensive, and was trying to get as much information out there for people as possible. At the end of the tour it was late in the afternoon as well, so I didn't want to hold the man up at all. Anyway, are you interested in going to Ireland, then? This was my first time in Ireland. It's definitely worthwhile, especially as Dunsany Castle is in the ancient county of Meath.

>>22460343
I went to Dublin for a concert last year (first time in Ireland as well) and I might visit Cork soon which is out of the way. I would like to read the works of Dunsany first anyway and then eventually visit the castle to appreciate it more. I will subscribe to your channel for when I read Dunsany.

>>22460405
Sounds like a nice time. I might go back to Ireland myself one day, probably to see more of the mountainous regions as well as Bru Na Boinne, which I missed out on. And thanks for subscribing. I got three just from posting my channel today, which tells you I should maybe do more to promote it.

>>22460429
I will definitely go back. I really liked the Irish. I assumed they were similar to the English in terms of being more reserved but they turned out to be more open. It feels like you can chat up any stranger whereas in England, I have been ignored for trying to strike a convo.
Dublin was disappointing and incredibly expensive (a beer pint was €6, come on) but the university was nice. I hope Cork is prettier, also I want to explore more of its nature and compare it to Scotland and England.
Also you could advertise your channel here if you pay for adverts but it could attract unwarranted attention since 4chan is full of trolls. You seem to have a decent following already.

>>22460490
I'm not much of a city person, so I didn't really seem much of Dublin myself. Sounds like I didn't miss much. I'm from Scotland myself, but I'll have been living in England for a decade by the end of this year. You're right, I could advertise here, although the quality of viewer may not be as high. 4chan is a place I consider a last resort when it comes to reaching out. It's just an easy way to make discussions without creating a formal thread elsewhere.

If this thread is still up tomorrow, I'll probably continue talking about Dunsany, fantasy literature and nature.

bump

Hello, OP here. I've compiled a list of some of my favourite Dunsany short stories. These aren't in any particular order save for the two Pegana collections.

'Of the Making of the Worlds' (Gods of Pegana) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8395/pg8395-images.html

Of the Calamity That Befel Yun-Ilara by the Sea, and of the Ending of Days (Gods of Pegana) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8395/pg8395-images.html

The River (Gods of Pegana) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/8395/pg8395-images.html

A Legend of the Dawn (Time and the Gods) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8183/8183-h/8183-h.htm#chap03

The Cave of Kai (Time and the Gods) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8183/8183-h/8183-h.htm#chap03

The Sorrow of Search (Time and the Gods) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8183/8183-h/8183-h.htm#chap03

In the Land of Time (Time and the Gods) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8183/8183-h/8183-h.htm#chap03

The Relenting of Sarnidac (Time and the Gods) (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/files/8183/8183-h/8183-h.htm#chap03

Poltarnees, Beholder of Ocean
https://sacred-texts.com/neu/dun/adta/adta03.htm

How One Came, As Was Foretold, to the City of Never
https://victorianweb.org/authors/dunsany/wonder/11.html#:~:text=Even%20so%20he%20came%2C%20as,were%20its%20streets%20a%20glory.

The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save For Sacnoth
https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/The_Sword_of_Welleran_and_Other_Stories/The_Fortress_Unvanquishable,_Save_for_Sacnoth

The Wonderful Window
https://victorianweb.org/authors/dunsany/wonder/14.html

The Beggars
https://sacred-texts.com/neu/dun/adta/adta13.htm

The Lord of Cities (find in collection)
https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/10806/pg10806.html

The Field
https://www.inkroci.com/culture_movie/the-stories/classics/the-field-lord-dunsany-short-story.html

>>22461995
There are, of course, a lot more than this, but I'll come provide more in an update if the thread remains open.

>>22461995
Also, here's a snippet from Dunsany's extended essay Nowadays. It's worth reading in full.

bump

>>22463153
Thanks for the bump. I'm still around. Not entirely sure what to discuss regarding Dunsany that I haven't already covered, but I'd love to hear any more thoughts about him or even about adjacent authors.

>>22459959
Damn that's really interesting. My own personal hobby horse is the fantasy lands created by the Brontë sisters. Emily Brontë especially loved nature and the landscape plays a key role in most of her fantasy poems. She had a keen sense of both the beauty and cruelty in nature, with the undercurrent that the latter was caused by man's rebellion in Eden.

I'd love to write some proper articles on it at some point, but a job and post-grad in a different field eat up too much time to do it properly. I've had two lit professors say I might get a mention in their books because they found my correspondence interesting, though.

>>22463283
Thanks. Coincidentally, the example thesis I've been looking at to help with the structuring of my own is based on Enlightenment feminism in the Brontës. Very much a postgrad topic and essentially the opposite of what I'm writing about, but it got a very high grade. I've never read any of the Brontës, sadly, but I reckon I'd find a lot to offer in the more Gothic works, e.g. Wuthering Heights. Frankenstein is in my top five works of fiction, so there's a high chance I'd like the Brontës' darker stories. You should definitely write articles on them!

Bump for the best thread on the board!
A little off-topic, though I did mention him earlier and he was heavily influenced by Lord Dunsany, here's a CAS haul I got a few weeks ago. I haven't been able to read them yet, thanks to academia + life nonsense, but it's good stuff. I was able to look them over, and if you can get them cheap: I would highly recommend it. They're in written order, and written as CAS wanted them rather than how they were released after editors tried to touch them.

>>22463910
Hello. Thanks for the compliment. I might create another Dunsany thread at some point when this one dies. Sadly, I find those covers to be extremely poorly designed. I get that they have pulp appeal, but the aesthetic isn't for me. It's a shame as CAS's less well known stories aren't really accessible outside of these books. I just have the Penguin Classics collection thus far.

>>22463944
Also, what's your favourite CAS story? My favourite is The City of the Singing Flame. I briefly wrote about this for a creative essay in the journal RELIQUIAE.

>>22463944
I don't care for them myself, but it's all I could do to get everything. I archive a lot of stuff, one of which is CAS' writings and I plan to do pick up some nicer paper and make a sort of Complete Works. I picked up bookbinding a few months ago, so it worked out nice.
>>22463951
>The City of the Singing Flame
Hell yeah, I loved that one. It was genuinely great. Interesting fact, he actually wrote a sequel (Beyond the Singing Flame), it wasn't well received but CAS himself liked it. I haven't gotten to it yet, but I imagine I'll like it.
My favorite... Well, so far, I'm a big fan of The Vaults of Yoh-Vombis (which is also in the same penguin classics collection.) I can imagine that Bradbury actually likely enjoyed that one as well, but I was pretty fond of the horror elements that came into play here. I can imagine that it was likely a pretty terrifying story when it came out.
>RELIQUIAE
I haven't heard of this, but I'll check this out. It looks like they don't have anything for sale at the moment, but I'm an evil pirate so I'm sure I can find something.

>>22463967
I archive a lot of stuff digitally*
I do both, but my digital book collection is pushing 4-5TB.

>>22463967
>>22463967
Ah, fair enough. I guess I'm too much influenced by covers. I shouldn't let them stop me from reading more CAS. And indeed, there was a sequel to Singing Flame, which I'd vaguely read about, but I've not read it in full myself. I distinctly remember the atmosphere of Yoh-Vombis. Very well written story. Another CAS story I love is the Dark Eidolon. The scene describing the sorcerer's beard is just incredibly dark and evocative. As I'm writing this, I just remembered The Last Incantation
By the way, I have a CAS reading on my channel, Thitherword. RELIQUIAE is an obscure but well respected journal on nature, mythology and spirituality. The volumes are usually packed with incredibly esoteric essays , excerpts from ancient texts, translations, etc. I managed to get into the last volume before they closed.

>>22464037
>By the way, I have a CAS reading on my channel, Thitherword
Aye, I subscribed yesterday. I don't really like being read to or really watching videos, but I'll try to help bump the numbers where I can.
>RELIQUIAE is an obscure but well respected journal on nature, mythology and spirituality
Sounds like it's right up my alley. I'll try to get my hands on this if/when I can.

>>22464060
That did make me chuckle. Being on YouTube, but not a fan of watching videos. I appreciate it though. I'll need to head off now, but I'll be around tomorrow.

>>22464082
Cheers

There's a YouTuber who I think is decent and recently released a video on Dunsany.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AJKfoLUN47M

>>22459542
Do you think faery is real? I'm trying to get there and need advice.

>>22464114
I know Faery is real, but it's out of reach for the plebian soul. You won't find it in Life, you won't find it in Death. Don't worry about something like this unless you can glean the eternal Truths in this Bardo.

>>22464114
>>22464545
Read Leaf by Niggle. Tolkien answers this.

>>22464577
I don't need the information, anon. False or otherwise.

Last bump from me 'til tomorrow.

>>22464114
>>22464545
Op here. To me, faery represents the more-than-human world that surrounds us. Faery stands for everything that is necessary for humans to thrive but that also exceeds us. Tolkien wrote about the connection of faery and nature in his letters and in OFS. Scholars like Patrick Curry have also made this connection. Robert Bringhurst has also written about faery as a place that is, as he says, not a playground but a perilous realm that surrounds us, feeds and sometimes tolerates us all. Faery is in fact a central concept of my thesis since both Dunsany and Tolkien had a similar understanding of faery, wonder, and enchantment. All these things are related, of course. I'd like to post passages from my thesis, but I'm not sure if that's a good idea. Suffice it to say, faery, in this world, is entirely non-Platonic. It's in no sense otherworldly.

>>22465154
I'm not discounting that there may be some after life in which the satisfaction of ancient desires comes true. Personally, I'm not a Christian, although I do respect a lot of what Christianity has to teach, particularly when it comes to ethics. For me, all that matters is trying to cultivate a "pluralist, perspectival, sensuous" (Curry) attitude to life and other beings. All that has meaning for us is this world. Earth-centred sacrality, essentially.

>>22464108
Thanks. I'll have a look at this, although admittedly I do get a bit deflated when I see videos on Dunsany that have many more views than my own. I'm not an expert on much outside of my background in ecology, but I'd like to think I know a thing or two about Dunsany by now! Hopefully my major upcoming video will attract more viewers. I'm going to approach it like this video instead of my regular reviews or video essays.

>>22465207
Looks like that video did really well for him compared to most of his others. But the other video that did well is titled "This Fantasy Author Deserves More Recognition and Acclaim." I think his titles helped because of their mystery with the question of "who?" which gets people to want the answer.

DUNSANY IS KING
BAKKER IS HIS PRINCE

>>22465250
R. Scott Bakker? I've not heard of him, and I'm not seeing the connection. Can you enlighten me here? Thanks.

Don't think I'll be replying to such lowly bait.

>>22464108
I like Thitherword. He has a few reviews of Dunsany omnibuses, as well as King of Elfland's Daughter.

>>22465270
Referring to my post about Bakker? This is what frustrates me about 4chan. It's often like speaking to children. I genuinely have no idea who Bakker is and what his connection is to Dunsany, but apparently this is bait and doesn't deserve an answer.

>>22465272
I'm probably stating the obvious here, especially as I've mentioned it in this thread already, but I run Thitherword. This is OP speaking. Thanks for the kind words anyway.

>>22465277
I was reading the thread in reverse as I am phoneposting on a train to Brussels, so I'd not seen the channel mentioned before I recommended it. Your book reviews are fantastic.
>>22459542
>I'd like to try my hand at answering questions about Dunsany too.
I've a question that is sort of Dunsany adjacent. I find Dunsany's more esoteric stuff pretty challenging. The King of Elfland's Daughter had the perfect balance of readable narrative and higher allegorical musings for simples such as myself. Are there other authors (either modern or contemporaries of Dunsany) that capture that same wistful, melancholy tone as he did in The King of Elfland's Daughter? That sort of feeling of being on the edge of a vast, dark forest at the day's twilight.

>>22465301
Ah, no problem at all. That makes sense. Thanks again for the kind words. I'm very much aware of how inactive my channel has been lately. Reviews has essentially stopped, but if you're a long-time viewer, you'll now why I struggle with uploading reviews. It mostly comes down to the fact that my reviews are mostly 'revisits', and it's difficult to review books that I've not read in a while. I hope to dedicate a lot of time in the coming weeks to making more videos.

As for the Dunsany question, I do know what you mean. One can only take so much of his archaic, lyrical style. The Pegana mythology is difficult to read a times, especially the longer stories in Time and the Gods. The tale 'Journey of the King' is essentially a novella based entirely around exploring different ideas about the afterlife. It's just a series of vignettes that runs on for far too long. There are so many names and images that it just becomes bewildering. Thankfully, a lot of Dunsany's later stories are simple to read. Their beauty comes from their simplicity. Other authors like Dunsany? I'd have to say that the closest I've ever read is Hope Mirlees. Her book Lud-in-the-Mist from the 1920s centres around a borderland that leads to Faery. The two are very similar in tone, although Hope's book is less rooted in medieval fantasy. It's like modernist fantasy, which makes sense given the time period and that she was connected to the modernists. I wanted to review this, but it's been years since I read it, sadly. I can't really think of anything else that's very similar to KED right now, but there are all kinds of associations that could be made between Dunsany and authors like Blackwood (his nature stories), Holdstock (Mythago Wood), MacDonald (Phantastes). I'll have a think later on.

>>22465154
Yes, its connection to nature is one of the clearest elements. Fairies themselves are evidently ideal of two things, one being nature, the other beauty - embodied typically in beautiful women, this manifestation being named after the plane itself. However it seems as though all the other creatures of folklore, like goblins and trolls, dwarfs, satyrs (I'm mixing IE mythologies together) are part of the same ecosystem and could also be called, in a broader sense of the term, fairies as well. So it encompasses the beauty and also the violence and other dark aspects of nature, but not within the same creatures.
My conception of it is inspired by some strange sources, but I envision it as a sort of superimposition on our level of reality, and these sources also lead me to believe that time passes differently there in that it's drastically slower relative to how we experience time. Maybe it's the same thing as what people call the 'astral' world, I don't know, it's a question that has been rolling around the back of my mind for over a year now.

Another bump for the best thread on /lit/.

Best genre-fiction thread in some time. Have nothing to contribute presently, just bumpin'.

>>22465317
>Lud-in-the-Mist
It's been on my radar for sometime. As far as I'm aware, she wasn't really a fantasist aside from that work?
>MacDonald's Phantases
Found things a little too allegorical - as I said, I'm not a smart man and usually need something with more discernible narrative structure. I did love all the faerie songs though - they were slightly more merciful than other stuff I can recall. Vance's depiction of faerie in Lyonesse springs to mind, where if you join in the little peoples' songs or dances you are cursed to sing and dance with them infinitely. That is probably taken from another older piece of mythology that I am not aware of off-hand).
>Mythago Wood
Always a little put off by this as it seems like a 5 or 6 book series. I should really get around to reading the first book, at least.

>>22465786
OP here. Faery is an ambivelant place, representing beauty and grace, as well as danger and strife. In faery, all things are ominous and significant. However, I maintain that faery has no connection to any transcendent plane. There's nothing supernatural about faery. Faery is, like moments of enchantment, something that reveals the wondrousness of the world while simultaneously lowering and reunifying humanity with nature. The fourth chapter of my thesis is all about enchantment and faery in KED and LOTR. I talk about how in faery time slows down as well, but for me this is just like Sam's experience in Lothlorien. Time slows because he's enchanted by the wonder of the more-than-human world. The etymology of enchantment actually means "to be in a song". Anyway, I could write about this for hours, but I've just spent the past day reading, so I'm a bit fatigued. Thanks for the contribution.

>>22466381
>>22466382
Why thank you!

>>22466426
Mirlees wasn't a fantasist, you're right. You know, if Dunsany is obscure, she is very much so. So, while I did suggest MacDonald, I can't say it was a wholehearted recommendation. I, too, struggled with Phantastes. I would recommend MacDonald's fairy stories though. The ones in the Penguin Classics collection. Those are excellent. Vance was probably drawing on the old notion of 'fairy rings'. I've never read Vance, but I've always considered it. Mythago Wood is phenomenal, but I have mixed opinions about Lavondyss. I actually haven't read the others, and I'm not sure I will. Lavondyss put me off the series as it gets incredibly, incredibly convoluted. It engages too much with the modern "magic system" fad. Holdstock's intent was mythopoeic, but he does a disservice to his own work by adding in all of these different masks, talismans, etc. It's too much.

Back to the front with you, thread!

>>22467088
I'm still around. Thanks for bumping. Having a nice glass of red wine. I'd love to chat more, although I can't think of a Dunsany-specific issue to tackle right now.

Good thread. I discovered Dunsany a little over a month ago, although I feel rather ashamed to admit the manner in which I did. It was a thread on here asking about the Dark Souls of literature and someone recommended The Fortress Unvanquishable, Save For Sacnoth.. I have since read The Sword of Welleran (the collection) and A Dreamer's Tales. I haven't been this enthralled by fantasy in a long while, the Sword of Welleran (the short story itself in this case) being my favorite so far. I even decided to order the Time and the Gods omnibus due to this thread. However, I heard it has quite a few typos, and only includes six of his eight short story collections. Alas, the perfect omnibus does not yet grace us.

>>22467352
Glad you were able to get into Dunsany, not matter the way. Sadly, yes, the Gollancz omnibus has typos and the order of the Pegana mythology frankly makes no sense. The omnibus starts with Time and the Gods, the second instalment of the Pegana mythology, and it ends with The Gods of Pegana, the first instalment. Not great for giving a sense of how the Pegana mythology plays out overall. I'm referring to the Gollancz 2000 edition though. Maybe the newer omnibus is better, but I don't own it. The Sword of Welleran is such an uplifting story. I remember loving this passage:
"“Thou are in great danger, Merimna, because thou art so beautiful. Must thou perish to-night because we no more defend thee, because we cry out and none hear us, as the bruised lilies cry out and none have known their voices?”
Thus spake those strong-voiced battle-ordering captains, calling to their dear city, and their voices came no louder than the whispers of little bats that drift across the twilight in the evening."

I've neglected to speak about Dunsany's Fifty-One Tales. This a collection of prose-poems that are very much unknown even to fans of Dunsany. They're like little crafted jewels. A lot of them play on pastoral ideas and they can even get quite repetitive, but there are some highly unique and more fantastical stories here. One of my favourite Dunsany stories not just from this collection but all of Dunsany is How the Enemy Came to Thlunrana.

https://www.gutenberg.org/cache/epub/7838/pg7838.html

The thing about Dunsany is that it's difficult to put him into a box in any sense. While one can trace large changes in tone and style as his work becomes less fantastic and succumbs to what Joshi calls 'desupernaturalisation', he wrote stories that aren't prototypically fantastic even in his first post-Pegana collection. So, something like In the Twilight from The Sword of Welleran will be quite like The Policeman's Prophecy, a late story from the 1930s. Both aren't standard fantasy. It's much more beneficial to look at Dunsany in terms of themes rather than in terms of genre or literary movement.

>>22467463
There are so many Dunsany stories that it's easy to forget those that I count among my absolute favourites. Please read Charon from Fifty-One Tales.

'Then one man came alone. And the little shade sat shivering on a lonely bench and the great boat pushed off. Only one passenger: the gods knew best.

Bump + Off-topic: "Weird Tales: 100 Years of Weird" is coming out in October. It is only 200 pages long, unfortunately. I'm not entirely sure if I want to bother getting it. I was excited, at first, that they were releasing everything printed, in order. I wouldn't mind something like that.

I'm going to read some of his books just because of this picture. Anyone who treats their pets this well is okay in my book.

>>22466534
Yes, it's the fascinating motif that appears constantly in stories where a person enters the fairy world by accident. They take a wrong turn in the forest, get lost, now they're in a different place that necessarily flouts the strict rules of space and time but is seamless and contiguous with the natural world.
I've been meaning to read faerie romances from the Victorians to get a better idea of how it works (from the collective unconscious), but as you allude to in another post, many of those stories are unfortunately not extremely stimulating as other fictions are. I started Phantastes but haven't touched Dunsany, Morris, etc., neither Hope Mirrllees although I love her poetry.
I also have this book on my list called The Secret Commonwealth, have you read that? It's a compilation of Scottish fairy lore recorded through interviews with local people.

>>22467876
Are the stories new? Or is it a Best Of type issue? Shamefully, I didn't even know it was still in circulation
>>22467952
Start with The King of Elfland's Daughter.

>>22467952
Dunsany loved dogs. He campaigned against the docking of their tails. He was also the president of his local RSPCA group. He's a bit of a contradictory figure, however, as he was also fond of shooting game around the world. He used to shoot on his estate as well, although at least this was for food.

>>22468551
I have no idea if they're new. I think they're just randomly selected.

>>22468651
>He's a bit of a contradictory figure, however, as he was also fond of shooting game around the world.
Interestingly, this isn't as contradictory as one may believe. A lot of information has been condensed over time about this subject, which ended up holding the idea that if you like animals, you wouldn't kill them, but that isn't true and I don't just mean mercy killing. The main concept here is to be against cruelty and there isn't anything particularly cruel with hunting for food. Infact, we have even found that hunting is actually good for maintaining populations, which brings up, on a wider scale, the massive debate about "conservativation" vs "preservation".. but that's way out of the scope here. If anyone is interested in this kind of subject matter, Aldo Leopold is a good starting point. Sand County Almanac.

>>22470037
>Sand County Almanac
Check out Sand County Almanac*

Bump

>>22467952
Big repose energy

How would you compare Lovecraft’s fantasy works to Dunsany? By that, I mean his Dream cycle. Personally, I believe it to be one of the best existing fantasy cycles, and it’s bewildering to me that Lovecraft is better known for his horror stories when he was such a marvelous fantasy writer.

I know that Lovecraft was a massive fan of Dunsany, and was greatlt inspired by him, but I’m curious to hear your opinion on the matter.

bump

>>22471305
Hello, OP here. Admittedly, I have a somewhat of a love-hate relationship with Lovecraft. I think most people do. Unfortunately, do the angle of my work and the limited space I have, I haven't been able to go into Lovecraft's relationship with Dunsany as much as I probably should. In my view, Dunsany's Dream Cycle is a strong emulation of Dunsany's Pegana and his early stories. Like you, I think his horror stories are given far too much time. They're very tedious to me. As it relates to my thesis, Lovecraft is responsible for influencing critics' opinions on the Pegana mythology, who almost always view these texts in a pessimistic/nihilistic/cynical bent. In a letter, Lovecraft wrote about how the Pegana mythology emphasises "chaotic nullity", and he suggests that Dunsany wanted to portray the "petty relations" of humanity, etc. My chapter one Pegana is a rebuttal of this kind of attitude. I don't find the Pegana mythology to fit into the cosmic horror model at all. People like Joshi will characterise Dunsany's writing as "frigid cosmicism" and Anna Vaninskaya will talk about "a mood of universal pessimism". These are ridiculous notions. I'm trying to do something different here.

>>22470037
OP here. Nice to see a mention of Aldo Leopold here. I learned a lot about him on my ecology degree, and, rather pleasingly, I've managed to put him into my thesis. I write a little about the land ethic in connection with one of Dunsany's Pegana stories. You know, while I do love Dunsany and fantasy literature generally, I almost wish I'd chosen an environmental philosophy course as this is what I really want to be talking about. I couldn't find one, sadly.

bump

bump for real fantasy hours

How much did Tolkien take from Dunsany? The Silmarillion is kind of his riff on The Gods of Pegāna. There's also a little god named 'Hobith'.

>>22459542
What am I in for?

>Dunsany appears as a playable character in the 1999 PlayStation game Koudelka.

>>22475660
wtf? I played through the whole thing explain

>>22475512
This is, of course, a major concern of mine. Sadly, the connections between Dunsany and Tolkien aren't anywhere as strong as I'd like. Tolkien referenced some of Dunsany's stories in his letters, but mostly the ones from The Book of Wonder, which are considered to be lesser. On that point, Tolkien even wrote a scathing review of Distressing Tale of Thangobrind the Jeweler, calling it 'Dunsany at his worst'. The issue with Dunsany's stories is that, for various reasons, he employed irony and humour a lot, which undermines his fantasies. Tolkien most certainly did not agree with that approach, and I agree with Tolkien. Dunsany is better when he remains true to the sincerity of fantasy. Some critics say that irony and humour are a natural part of his experimental fantasy-reality style, but I disagree. Knowing nods and winks don't necessarily go together with the other themes, techniques and motifs Dunsany used. For example, How One Came, as Was Foretold, to the City of Never, is written in a sincere story despite the fact that it's fantasy-reality. Sadly, Dunsany began to increasingly parody his stories until he eventually abandoned fantasy altogether. He ends up transitioning from an ontological distinction between fantasy and reality to one of reality versus delusion. His stories became less supernatural and, as it relates to my work, less engaged in speaking about the natural world in a significant way. The Jorkens club tales are a good example of stories that are mostly just misses.

Anyway, I rambled for too long about the short stories. What baffles me is that there are no studies comparing the Pegana mythology to the Silmarillion. These two accounts have so much in common, ranging from the cosmic perspective to the theme of the acceptance of limitations/promotion of humility. Both are mythic expositions for the arrival of a human age and they also use the same kind of symbolism, notably iron, to represent war, industry and the domineering drive of modernity. Despite all this, I've not been able to find anything comparing the two mythologies, and it's too late now if I did. It's so strange that the only references we have regarding Dunsany's connection to Tolkien are Tolkien's letters about three or four short stories.

>>22476103
I forgot to say that there is the potential that Tolkien's poem 'The Mewlips' may have been inspired by Dunsany's 'The Hoard of the Gibbellins'. Both are about creatures who dwell far away and lure humans with gold. These two stories point to Dunsany's and Tolkien's dislike of avarice. Very slight though. Connections like this do little to help.

Thoughts on pic rel? Apparently it features a case study per author and how they dealt with the themes of Time and Death.

>>22476103
Yes, there's this collection of books that inspired Tolkien (the source is the letters) and the Dunsany choice is The Book of Wonders & the Last Book of Wonders (http://www.professorsbookshelf.com/books/wonder/wonder.html).). Another influence is Eddison's Worm Ouroboros, I was wondering what you think about him.

>>22476165
Was the Eye of Sauron taken from Dunsany like the book description says btw? I haven't read Book of Wonder

>127 replies in a Dunsany thread
>A lot of effort posting from OP
Comfy thread. Will read through later then go read some of his short stories.

>All the gods were sitting in Pegana, and Their slave Time lay idle at Pegana’s gate with nothing to destroy, when They thought of worlds … Then (who knoweth when?), as the gods raised Their hands making the sign of the gods, the thoughts of the gods became worlds and silver moons. … Then upon earth the gods played out the game of the gods, the game of life and death … At last They mocked no more at life and laughed at death no more, and cried aloud in Pegana: ‘Will no new thing be? Must those four march for ever round the world till our eyes are wearied with the treading of the feet of the Seasons that will not cease, while Night and Day and Life and Death drearily rise and fall?’ … It may be that the worlds shall pass and we would fain forget them.’Then the gods slept.
kino

>>22476103
There's a book I've been reading that seems decent called Fantasies of Time and Death: Dunsany, Eddison, Tolkien; and apparently it won the 2021 Mythopoeic Scholarship Award, so you might find it worth reading.

>>22476159
Oh I didn't expect someone to post the book. I've been reading it a bit, skimming through, and it seems interesting to me.

>>22476167
Thanks. I've really enjoyed contributing to the thread. I didn't expect it to stay up this long. Honestly, I've been a fan of Dunsany for years, and I've just been working by myself for since September of last year, so I really wanted to share what I'd learned and to engage with other fans of Dunsanian fantasy. For a primer, see >>22459747

>>22476159
I've used Vaninskaya's book a decent amount. I said somewhere earlier that I disagree with her overall conception of the Pegana writings as nihilistic and pessimistic. She has come up with some original ideas relating to Dunsany's later short stories, particularly her idea of 'point and counterpoint' being a major aspect of Dunsany's artistic approach. Dunsany is all about contrasts.

>>22476175
Hello. Please see >>22476179. I'd write more on my opinion of this book and the study of The Silmarillion and Pegana, but I need to get back to work.

>>22476165
I enjoyed TWO very much. The archaic language gives me goosebumps due to its sense of nobility. It has the same "high style" that Tolkien invested in The Silmarillion. Eddison definitely had much more of an impact on Tolkien than Dunsany did. Eddison is deeply rooted in the Norse myths, of course. His work is very much based on pagan heroism and it has that Norse fatalism running through it. I read the book a while ago now, but I remember becoming quite invested in the geopolitical movements of the narrative. I did a review of the book ages ago: https://youtu.be/1wmm1u-50DI?si=4XKOYWXQQVgB7S4n

>>22476262
*did a review of the book ages ago, when I had no concern for video quality.

>>22476178
I've always been a fan of Lovecraft, Tolkien, Clark Ashton Smith, etc. and knew Dunsany was an influence but never got around to reading him, but this thread has given me the impetus to start. Thanks OP!

>>22476175
NTA, but thanks for that recommendation.

>>22476175
>check eBay for book
>$274AUD

>>22459542

Pic rel is one of my favorite excerpts from KED <3

>>22478307

His complete works are $2.99 on Delphi Classics for those unaware.

>>22459597
He always stated the obvious and coined the phrase "You dunsay." It's something you say to someone who states the obvious.

>>22478307
>And at that moment a wind came out of the northwest, and entered the woods and bared the golden branches, and danced over the downs, and led a company of scarlet and golden leaves, that had dreaded this day but danced now it had come; and away with a riot of dancing and glory of colour, high in the light of the sun that had set from the sight of the fields, went wind and leaves together.

bump

>>22470037
>>22472304
>Leopold

Nice. On that topic, if anyone ITT wants to read Leopold from a more ecological and philosophical perspective as opposed to a prose or nature writing perspective I would highly recommend The River of the Mother of God: and Other Essays. It's a curated cross-section of Leopold's writing throughout his life, starting as a young man and extending posthumously. I'd read some Leopold before but this volume was excellent because it shows the development of his philosophy from viewing the natural world as resources to be extracted as a young man to borderline eco-fascism at the time of his death. A Sand County Almanac is great already but when you have a better understanding of the underpinnings of that work it becomes that much more significant.

https://annas-archive.org/md5/ba63eb86fbae98d3ceb59e1410c6ef1d

Dear OP, I'm glad someone of your expertise and passion made a thread about Lord Dunsany. From time to time I recommend him because he comes from a time when people didn't mindlessly steal superficially from Tolkien.
I see you don't like Lovecraft's take on Dunsany, but I recommend to give his sort story "The White Ship" a chance, because in my opinion it is masterfully composed and owes everything to Lord Dunsany:
>But more wonderful than the lore of old men and the lore of books is the secret lore of ocean. Blue, green, grey, white, or black; smooth, ruffled, or mountainous; that ocean is not silent. All my days have I watched it and listened to it, and I know it well. At first it told to me only the plain little tales of calm beaches and near ports, but with the years it grew more friendly and spoke of other things; of things more strange and more distant in space and in time. Sometimes at twilight the grey vapours of the horizon have parted to grant me glimpses of the ways beyond; and sometimes at night the deep waters of the sea have grown clear and phosphorescent, to grant me glimpses of the ways beneath. And these glimpses have been as often of the ways that were and the ways that might be, as of the ways that are; for ocean is more ancient than the mountains, and freighted with the memories and the dreams of Time.
https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/fiction/ws.aspx
He learnt from Dunsany how to infuse his writings with nostalgia and respect of time.

Now that you are here, I'd like to ask you a couple of things:
- Why are you so interested in ecology? Why did you start browsing lit? You used to look like a druid. I think you should eat more and lift weights.
- Is Dunsany in any way related to Traditionalism? (Guenon and friends)
- What was his source of inspiration? The authors that inspired him to write the way he did?
- When did everything go so wrong?

Btw, my favorite from what I read from him is 'Carcassonne'.

>>22481225
>- Is Dunsany in any way related to Traditionalism? (Guenon and friends)
I am so tired of the Guenon autism on this board.

>>22481225
Not OP but I'm curious too. I'm really into Traditionalism, ecology, and third position.
>>22481310
What you have to understand is that these things have a very strong overlap between these things. Also, I'm not going to knock Guenon, but I do prefer Julius Evola myself, likely due to just having read more Evola.

>>22459542
Alzabo Soup, a podcast about Gene Wolfe did an episode on Dunsany OP, you might enjoy listening to it.

>>22481225
Hello, OP here. I'd taken a break from the thread as I'm submitting my work within the next couple of days. Thanks for writing this message. My gripe with Lovecraft largely centres on his perception of the Pegana mythology. I find a lot of affirmative meaning and beauty in Pegana, whereas he seems to see only scorn and mockery towards humanity. I don't go in for his kind of absurdist/existentialist ideas that form the basis of his brand of 'cosmic horror'. I used to when I was younger. Lovecraft's "Dunsany pieces" have their charm, and I appreciate what he was trying to do. But he speaks more of his own worldview and fiction when referring to the Pegana mythology in his letters. See >>22472297 for clarification, if you haven't already. But you're right, I probably should read more Lovecraft. Admittedly, I've only read one short story collection and the novella At the Mountains of Madness.
My background is in ecology and countryside management. I became interested in nature in an odd way. I'd always loved ancient history, but then I became more engaged by prehistory, especially the Mesolithic. Researching the spread of the native Caledonian pine forest was the sort of thing the gradually made me more interested in ecology. I then started volunteering before doing 5 years of ecology/countryside management. Now I've moved to the humanities. I was always more interested in the interface between literature and environmental ethics anyway.

I'm afraid I'm not up to scratch on Guenon. Some critics like to recruit Dunsany into the symbolist art movement, but I'm sure this is different from what Guenon was writing about. I can see the connection between him and Dunsany though since Dunsany was very much inspired by Orientalism. In terms of philosophy, I'm more interested in aligning Dunsany with the philosophy and ethical stance of wonder/enchantment. I can't go into all the details here, but I find that his work is rooted in an understanding of the Earthly and circumstantial over the abstract and transcendent.

As for Dunsany's influences and inspirations. See my post here: >>22459869. Honestly, Dunsany's Wikipedia page is surprisingly good when it comes to information about the author. The influences section is strong.

By your last question, I assume you mean with Dunsany's work and his waning popularity? For me, it largely comes down to his increasing desire to parody his use of the fantastic, particularly in The Last Book of Wonder and Tales of Three Hemispheres. Also, the gradual desupernaturalisation of his work and the jump he made from fantasy-reality to reality-delusion. Stories such as the Jorkens club tales are almost entirely based around the humour of the improbable, and they often dwell on characters' delusions. They don't really have the sense of wondrousness inherent in fantasy. This is particularly significant for me since Dunsany began to treat the diminishment of nature in a sincere way.

>>22482031
Thanks, I'll look into this.

>>22481225
>>22481310
>>22481605

I'd like to elaborate a little on my stance and beliefs regarding nature and spirituality. As said in the OP, I'm looking at Dunsany's and Tolkien's appreciation of nature through the lens of wonder and disenchantment. I employ the ideas of Max Weber, Theodor Adorno and Max Horkheimer, who critiqued the Enlightenment doctrine of mastery, which results in the “disenchantment of the world”. Experiences of wonder or “enchantment” stand in radical opposition to this desire for control of other beings and the denial of human limitations because, by definition, wonder values what is other and pluralistic (see R.W. Hepburn's essay on wonder). Patrick Curry views both religious supernaturalism and secular notions of progress as the two “disenchanting monisms” since they don’t permit a variety of ways of engaging with nature and faith and both are driven by a desire to control. Wonder is in this sense a third path. As for sacrality, I prefer to think in terms of immanence rather than transcendence, i.e., that whatever we value has its ultimate root on Earth and a secondary supernatural source doesn’t need to be added. As Hepburn said: ‘To be evocative of wonder, an object need not be seen as filtering the perfections of deity’. In my view, we live on a mysterious, unmasterable more-than-human world that we share with many other different persons or agencies and that this Earth doesn’t require a god or gods in order to be wondrous. In short, the discourse surrounding wonder and enchantment is fundamentally based in the language of relationality and plurality. For me, this way is much more valuable than looking toward notions of self-actualization and Romantic, individualistic empowerment, which only gets one so far. I’m not a fan of so-called "New Age spiritualities" as they’re overly concerned with instrumentalism, too. I most certainly don't agree with Platonic conceptions of a higher plane that is superior to Earth.

>>22482709
>Also, the gradual desupernaturalisation of his work and the jump he made from fantasy-reality to reality-delusion.
Fitting, with how myth and fantasy gradually gave way to rationalism and utility in history and culture. Hell, that's basically Tolkien's thesis in a nutshell. Sad that it happened to Dunsany himself.

>>22482750
>In my view, we live on a mysterious, unmasterable more-than-human world that we share with many other different persons or agencies and that this Earth doesn’t require a god or gods in order to be wondrous.
Doesn't this make us strangers of this worlds? Other forms of religiosity with or without gods at least allow the possibility of experiencing unity with the universe. As you put it, we can only aspire to witness it from afar.

>>22482915
By "mysterious" I mean that there may be the potential for some kind of transcendent teleological purpose, but we simply can't know. We also don't need to know or care about some greater plan for us to feel at home in the Earth. We are part of the Earth since we're embodied and embedded natural beings. Thus, we shouldn't strive for mastery and we certainly shouldn't feel superior to other animals. For me, there's no sense whereby anything I said means that we can only "witness [the universe] from afar". We're already of nature. In my view, all we can do is look toward that which already exists and find peace and attainment in the simplicity and wonder of nature. This can be facilitated by engaging with the natural world in a perspectival and sensuous manner.

>>22482940
Also, for anyone interested in the philosophy/ethics of wonder, I would highly suggest reading the work of Dr Patrick Curry. He's the primary author I use in my work, and I wrote for his journal The Ecological Citizen. Here's a rundown in his own words:

"What are the signs that might help us to recognize genuine contemporary
re-Enchantment? It seems to me that they are these:
(1) Wonder in and at the natural world, its places and its non-human people, but actual ones, and not merely in the abstract (even as 'Gaia')—accompanied with a recognition and appreciation of their integrity and variety, independently of any use they may have to human beings. (This is the central insight of deep ecology, usually termed 'ecocentrism'.)
(2) As against the monism and rationalism of modernist Magic, a consistent
pluralism in at least three respects: epistemologically as relativism, axiologically as value-pluralism, and politically as a project of radical and plural democracy.
(3) An end to humanist/modernist (and postmodernist) secularism and its
war on wonder, with the frank admission of a spiritual dimension of human
experience that is not exhausted by institutionalised religion. In terms of
(re-)Enchantment, its closest affinities are with popular animism, even more than with other sympathetic approaches: polytheism, pantheism or panentheism, and Buddhist non-theism. (It has to be said—and I am speaking here of discourses, not of individuals—that in this context, monotheism starts with some severe handicaps.)
Actually, Enchantment is a result of right relationship with the Earth just as
much as the reverse; more so, indeed, in the sense that we need the Earth,
whereas it does not need us."
-‘Magic vs. Enchantment’, Journal of Contemporary Religion, 14.3 (1999)

>>22481168
This is the collected works. FYI Delphi also has one they are calling his complete works that have a bit more.

>>22481168
>>22483008
The problem I have with this is that it's an ebook-only. I really wish there was a physical release. I know there is a lot of material, but I wouldn't mind getting several volumes.

>Comparing Tolkien with Lord Dunsany?
That's faggot shit. Tolkien wrote bullshite for kids. There's no comparison. Grow up.

>>22483643
OP here. I feel your pain. I first read KED on kindle, and I regret it. Kindle got me into reading, but for the past several years I've been reading in physical. Real books are just so much better, aren't they? I wish I had the books I'd read on Kindle on my shelf today. As for Dunsany, I wish I could find a cheap version of his autobiography 'Patches of Sunlight'. I've only needed to include a handful of passages for my work, but I'd love to read it in full.

>>22483691
You're probably trolling, but I'll ask a genuine question in case you're not. Are you aware of The Silmarillion? Also, you wouldn't believe just how similar Dunsany and Tolkien really are.

>>22483698
Speaking of Dunsany's life, I forgot to mention in this thread that the definitive book is S.T. Joshi's 'Creator of Gods and Men: Lord Dunsany and Fantasy Fiction'. This covers absolutely everything.

>>22483712
>S.T. Joshi's 'Creator of Gods and Men: Lord Dunsany and Fantasy Fiction'
Isn't he a Lovecraft scholar? Won't this affect how he approaches Dunsany?

>>22484002
Definitely. He's one of the founders of Weird criticism, and he's known for writing a lot about HPL. However, Dunsany is another of his major areas. Funnily enough, of all the secondary critics I've used, Joshi is the one that often comes closest to engaging with the natural world. He often writes about Dunsany's desire to 'unification with nature', and his section on Pegana talks about things such as 'the revival of an aesthetic form of animism'. But you're right, his closer alignment with HPL definitely influences how he sees Dunsany.

>>22482831
Tolkien equates fantasy with rationalism. You have to know what is real in order to deviate from it in the first place. He was against irrationality and inconsistency.

>>22484246
Way to miss the point faggot.
>“The Lord of the Rings’ is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out practically all references to anything like ‘religion,’ to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and symbolism.”
https://quillette.com/2023/09/02/misreading-middle-earth/

>>22484246
>>22484402
OP here. You're both right. Tolkien suggested that reason is crucial to fantasy. He also said that Christianity was subsumed into the story and symbolism because he detested the idea of making overt references to his religion. You're not really responded to each other as these are quite different areas.

>>22484425
responding*

>>22484425
Rationalism is more than reason, and he is reacting to a post in which the anon states that myth died to give way to rationalism. Probably that other anon thinks that LotR is too detailed to be considered in the same tradition as chivalry or mythology, and for that reason is "rational", as in Tolkien is concerned with the scientific method and trying to reestablish the irrationalism of myths into a more positivistic light.

>>22468651
>He's a bit of a contradictory figure, however, as he was also fond of shooting game around the world.
Hunting is generally (especially in the past) a gateway drug to conservation, to greater or lesser degrees. At the shallowest the hunter-conservationist has some interest in "preserving game numbers" but it often goes far beyond that into a much more nuanced appreciation of nature. You notice birds or the lack thereof, different kinds of plants and how and where they grow, the eating habits of animals, etc. When you spend more time in the field with a mind turned towards observation you gain a first-hand appreciation for the interactions of natural systems and this often turns into reverence for nature as a holistic entity as opposed to discrete entities or systems of varying worth. Even specifically game-focused advocacy groups like Ducks Unlimited and the Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation arguably conserve more of everything else than their nominal target species because they have a strong focus on habitat preservation and that has immense trickle-down effects. Preventing marshes from being drained not only preserves duck populations but also everything else in the marsh - native grasses, fishes, invertebrates, amphibians, etc.

bump

>>22482915
>Other forms of religiosity with or without gods at least allow the possibility of experiencing unity with the universe
We're not only part of the universe but aware that we are. That's as unified as it gets. Everything else is just perception and ego.

>>22483707
>Also, you wouldn't believe just how similar Dunsany and Tolkien really are.
That's because Tolkien mooched Dunsany. Grow up.

>>22486416
You're telling me this, someone who has just dedicated the past year to proving that Dunsany was deeply influential in establishing Tolkienian fantasy. Not only that but their understanding of wonder/disenchantment is highly similar. Then again, you keep adding "grow up" to your posts, so I can only assume that you're just trolling.

>>22486406
OP here. I couldn't agree more. Yes, we don't have the "answers" to why we exist, but that doesn't mean we're not unified with Earth and the cosmos. Is a woodlouse not a woodlouse because it doesn't understand the cosmos?

>>22486431
No I am just sick and tried of Tolkien manchilds going around pretending like that faggot is the father of fantasy. He wrote slop for kids. Fuck that christcuck.

>>22486440
Okay, then. I'm not suggesting that it's the father of fantasy. That's my entire point. If I was, I wouldn't have written a thesis about Dunsany, which also includes MacDonald, Morris, Lindsay, Lovecraft and many others...

>>22486459
he's the father of fantasy*
Also, forgive my sloppy writing in this thread. I've done a lot of writing recently, so I'm a bit fatigued!

>>22486431
>>22486440
And milking Dunsany's worth by saying how much he was influential for that slop writer is a disrespect.

>>22486459
Thanks for your effort.

>>22486462
That makes no sense. Your two messages are contradictory. Either you appreciate my effort of you think I'm disrespecting Dunsany by trying to align him with Tolkien. You're talking about the same person/project.

>>22486440
He didn't write slop for kids, he wrote the most influential fantasy book in the 20th century. On top of that he is a christian which makes you seethe. He is a giant and you are worse than goblin. I think you are the only child here who refuses to grow up. You life an empty life and cannot comprehend why a person the size of Tolkien managed to create a universe while also being a great medievalist. Now, go back to GRR Martin and hist farts.

>>22486592
>he wrote the most influential fantasy book in the 20th century.
Only a drooling fucking retard would say this.

I'll stick with Dunsany, MR James, Machen, Blackwood, Lovecraft, CAS and Poe. The actual titans of fantasy. Keep reading slop written for church kids you dumb fucking christcuck.

>>22486610
I will, say hello to you wife's boyfriend!

>>22486619
Shiet son. Now you finally know that your mother is a whore

>>22486610
>>22486619
>>22486675
Tedious.

In a time when fairy tales were being heavily questioned, fantasy writers such as Tolkien and Lord Dunsany chose to focus their attention on them. Tolkien even wrote an issue on the subject https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_Fairy-Stories, Lord Dunsany was influenced too https://victorianweb.org/authors/dunsany/polm3.html
I think this is something OP should answer for, because fairy tales have always being focused on nature and supernatural encounters too, and the basis for many fantasy authors. Maybe he has something to say about it.

>>22486440
Like it or not (and a lot of people didn't), Tolkien has become the model for all fantasy works written after him, whether as a model to be imitated or a model to be controverted. There's no use denying it. All fantasy after him has been significantly influenced by his work, in one way or another.

>>22486694
We've talked about OFS and the concept of faery quite often in this thread.

>>22486610
>Dunsany, MR James, Machen, Blackwood, Lovecraft, CAS and Poe
I'm a big fan of all of these guys, CAS especially so. But Tolkien isn't bad. Yes, he wrote for kids, but there is nothing wrong with writing for children. His worldbuilding is monolithic. So much so that even adults were able to enjoy it. That means that he surpassed age, in terms of his writing.
>inb4 but he just rotated europe
I see this a lot, but that's just the landmass and seems to misunderstand that worldbuilding is more than physical. He really did build an expansive universe. Of course, his entire goal was to give the Brits mythos. He knew the Brits were a soulless people who didn't have any mythos of their own.
>Only a drooling fucking retard would say this
I think someone who sticks to the mainstream would say this. That doesn't make them retarded. A lot of people aren't aware of the absolute master-class writers in my greentext at the beginning of this response. You should have responded in a kinder way, anon. We don't need to act like niggers here.

>>22486610
>you dumb fucking christcuck.
So that's it? That's the crux of the issue? Man, you're such a pathetic tranny.

Dunsany's works have always left me a longing for days that never truly existed. To roam with old gods and spirits, and walk distant shores. I can never explain the feeling in full, it is overwhelming.

>>22487489
I get it, anon. That wistful, longing feeling. That's how KED made me feel. The Pegana stuff made me feel small and insignificant, felt like reading the Bible at times.

>>22487489
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sehnsucht

>>22487518
The Germans have words for everything, man.

In one of his latest videos Steve says Tolkien in LOTR borrows lines from KED without changing them on at least two different occasions. Is that true?

>>22487396
>n---ers
>>22487406
>Christcuck/tranny

OP here. This is why I left 4chan for years. Honestly, I've lost all motivation to continue this thread. Well done.

>>22487551
No

>>22487594
I'm over here bringing balance between two groups that suddenly appeared, effectively moderating your thread, and you're latching on to a single word? How sad. c'est la vie. I've been the guy bumping your thread since you made it, but I'll fuck off if you like. Just keep in mind that decent discussion is able to happen, provided no one gets worked up over something no one really cares about and that this is one of the few places you can have a genuine discussion about a given subject matter while knowing it's not just social posturing/fake.

>>22487594
It's been days since your last effort post anyway. You just have protagonist syndrome but this cements you as a wuss offended by mere meme words like 'tranny'. Well done but thread lost its magic already.

>>22487626
I suspect it may just be an optics thing and he may just be worried about it coming back to him or something, but I don't think anyone is going to really care as much as he thinks.

>>22487508
It makes one long for golden sands in some foreign land that man has never trodden. Or mystical groves where the Great God Pan still dwells. This song encapsulates the feeling rather well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZp-ManlJik
>>22487518
Precisely the word I was looking for.

>>22487594
Alright,

I've got a bit of a pickle, mate. Seems someone's been having a laugh by impersonating me on this platform, and I have to say, it's really starting to get on my wick.

I get that the internet can be a bit of a daft place, and there's room for a bit of banter, but this is taking the biscuit. I'd be chuffed if you could knock it off with the whole pretending-to-be-me gig. It's not just me being a bit miffed; it can cause all sorts of misunderstandings, and it's not cricket.

Let's keep things above board and have some proper authentic interactions instead of all this impersonation malarkey. Being genuine and giving each other a fair shake is the way we should be doing things.

So, could you do us a favour and put an end to this impersonation?

Cheers,
OP.

>>22487626
I posted several times today. Not much, I admit, but I've been busy.
>>22487625
While I appreciate you bumping the thread and contributing a lot, I just can't tolerate the juvenile name calling, edgy racism and meme buzzwords. Even if the 4chan is more open and honest, there's no excuse to act like this. I don't care how good the quality of conversation is if people start using disgusting and/or childish language. That's what's wrong with anonymity, it shows how people really are. I can understand if certain things are said in the heat of an argument, but using actual racist words and stupid meme phrases like "Christcuck" is just needless and disrespectful. It makes me want to avoid conversing with people with whom I might otherwise have a lot in common.

>>22487654
Alright, I'll take this as a legitimate one. It seemed unnatural in the first place, but I'm still waking up.
So, cheers, I'll keep bumping the thread when I notice it hitting page 8+. I don't usually want people to namefag but you may end up having to.

>>22487654
You're doing this are you? Genuinely not sure what the point is. Alright, well, have fun.

>>22487659
The general phrase "Do Not Feed or Engage the Trolls" comes to mind in this thread. If someone insults you using such terminology, simply wish them well and move on. They are caught up in the throes of suffering and longing, as we all are.

>>22487663
That's not me (OP). No idea why he's trying to impersonate me, especially as his message isn't even negative. Anyway, my real response is >>22487659

>>22487594
Mods are to blame for this. Racism and off topic garbage get a pass recently. I'm sure not sure why since it's against the rules. Pls don't go. It's the only quality thread :(

>>22487659
Look, I'm not going to bother assuming anyone is OP, regardless of them making a claim to be, but I'll still talk to you, regardless. Frankly, the OP would probably just ignore these posts and move on because that is generally the best PR move when you don't have admin rights.
>It makes me want to avoid conversing with people with whom I might otherwise have a lot in common.
I feel the same way, but I like to let people know upfront so no time is wasted. I'm in academia, I run several communities, and I have a family, but I'm also a racialist who is sympathetic to third positionist ideas, eco-fascist efforts, and really, really into Traditionalism. I don't often go around cursing and such, but I also have found that this a good way to curb shitposting and help mitigate a lot of problems, if you cannot ban/delete a post (or just don't want to.)

>>22487695
>would probably
should probably* Sorry, I don't proof read my posts.

>'tranny' is mentioned
>good thread immediately derailed
Every single fucking time.

>>22487709
Classic "religion + hot button derailment". It's probably just your gangstalkers, "anon". Are you sleepy? I'm really *yawns* tired right now...

>>22487695
Not OP, but what works do you read? I would describe myself as a left wing, but nevertheless feel a longing for tradition and order in a world which has very little of that left. I believe in hierarchy to a certain extent, perhaps even Autarchy, but still wish for a strong social safety net for the less fortunate in society, as well as the curbing of capitalistic excess that plagues the wealthy in my country.

NEW THREAD
>>22487775
>>22487775
>>22487775

You're cordially invited to my new thread
>>22487813
>>22487813
>>22487813

>>22487775
I read a wide array of political works. There isn't one specific ideology that speaks to me, frankly, and I've been drifting away from the political for awhile now. I originally just read up about these things so I could "know my enemy", but I learned that there isn't really an enemy, except people who subvert these ideas for their own goals. Then I checked out marxism and its derivatives, and found that they have really, really weak protection against abuse of powers. I was actually surprised because even national socialism and fascism had protection against abuse of powers,. Now that's a whole different, off-topic subject, but my point here is that I read pretty much anything. But specifically, for the last two years, I've really been into Irish third position. It's pretty hard to find information on this, but I've been slowly working my way through important people who participated in 1916 in the rising and all that. Anyways, I want to respond to some of what you said. Right now I'm slowly working through a journal called "On Another Mans Wounds" by Ernie O'Malley, which is about a politically apathetic doctor who found himself a patriot after the public executions after the Easter Rising, if you wanted a specific book/author.
>I would describe myself as a left wing, but nevertheless feel a longing for tradition and order in a world which has very little of that left.
There's nothing inherently wrong with this. A lot of people who generally align themselves with me think "left = bad" but that's the little false dichotomy taking over.
>I believe in hierarchy to a certain extent, perhaps even Autarchy
I'm a big fan of the pre-hollywood understanding of the aristocracy-plebian relationship. There was a form of mutual respect there and I think it worked a lot better than what we have going today. Of course, it's complicated, but I am genuinely fond of hierarchy. I don't like monarchism though, interestingly enough.
>but still wish for a strong social safety net for the less fortunate in society
I agree. This is exactly why I call my worldview "third position" rather than a "far-right". It's not that the so-called "far-right" doesn't care, but there is an idea and I don't want to spend precious time wasting making a futile explanation about how it's not actually anti-poor. The only genuine anti-poor ideology is actually "capitalism."
>as well as the curbing of capitalistic excess that plagues the wealthy in my country
Capitalism is a scourge, I agree. I find the left wing understanding of capitalism is very one dimensional, but generally correct. The third positionist hates international finance capitalists and my entire basis of rejecting capitalism is usury. A capitalist nation will always fall to plutocracy and we see this today in the USA and Europe.

>>22487887
Are you Irish like OP?

>>22488273
Yes.

>>22488273
OP here. I'm Scottish.

>>22488316
My bad. You mentioned visiting Dunsany's castle so I incorrectly assumed you were Irish. If you don't mind speaking about Scottish writers, what are your thoughts on R L Stevenson?

>>22487887
Sorry for the late reply. I'm generally bereft of much Third Positionist literature, largely because of it's often racist undertones. I generally believe racial divisions are caused by many factors, largely influenced by those in power to divide a nation and make it easier to influence with outrage. My Germanic ancestors had a lot more in common with a West African culture than anything the modern day has produced. Similarly, I have more in common with the average subaltern African American than I do with a wealthy businessman. I wonder what the solution is to this predicament? There has to be a way between left and right.

>>22488516
No problem at all. It's understandable. Sadly, I've only read Jekyll & Hyde from Stevenson. You know, I've always found it odd that I've not been able to get into Scottish authors. George MacDonald is the exception. I've thought about reading David Lindsay, but his major work sounds a bit too metaphysical for me right now. Need a break from heavy texts. Also, his work is founded on Gnosticism, which I don't exactly agree with. Do you know of any good Scottish fantasy authors? I'm sure I'm missing obvious ones.

>>22488790
That's the problem Tolkien was trying to solve with his mythology, a native English/Anglo-Saxon ethnic identity. Nobody thinks there's anything wrong with Japanese and their strong ethnic identity, but you can't be like that but English even in Tolkien's day. There's nothing morally wrong with ethnic identity anymore than a national identity. Of course attacking other nations is wrong as is attacking other ethnicities, but that's not inherent in identity.

>>22488961
>That's the problem Tolkien was trying to solve with his mythology, a native English/Anglo-Saxon ethnic identity.
Not true. He wanted an English epic, that is all. Then racists and /pol/ pagans started reading his work through ethno-nationalist lenses to reaffirm and justify their agenda.

>>22488790
>late reply
It's alright. I work in academia so I'm only randomly available all hours of the day/night.
>often racist undertones
There are definitely those. One of the most imporant features is to understand and respect biological differences as well as natural order/hierarchy. With respect to 3P, it would be odd to see anti-racism. Apathy towards racism, sure, but that's the closest I have found. There is a lot of interest in retaining biodiversity in all aspects of nature.
>There has to be a way between left and right.
There are several answers to this question, but I'm not interested in having a discussion about racialism and such. I don't want to try to "convert" anyone either, I think that is profane. We find our own ways, you know?
>>22488973
Aren't there a lot of discussions about how he was against racemixing, Jewish influence, etc? I'm not a scholar on this, I've only seen these remarks in passing and they have lined up with what I have read... Although, on second though, I did mention his desire to create mythos for the anglo-saxons/english/british earlier, and usually, in most (all?) mythos, there are identifiable themes that involve morality and such.
I respect Tolkien too much to assume he has a one dimensional goal like this, I could be overly zealous with that respect and have missed that entirely.

>>22489024
>Aren't there a lot of discussions about how he was against racemixing, Jewish influence, etc?
People can discuss anything they want, sure. Doesn't make it true. Forcing your interpretation onto a fictional work is entirely postmodern. Tolkien had no issues with the Jews, he respected them and even defended them in a letter to the Nazis. I'm unsure why /pol/ people want him to be one of your own so bad. Then there's the pagans on another level of delusion. God Almighty.

>>22489041
>People can discuss anything they want
I'm referring to academic discussions... Keep up.
>Tolkien had no issues with the Jews, he respected them and even defended them in a letter to the Nazis.
This is why I'm asking. Although, you mentioned modern perspectives... Anti-semitism wasn't just wanting to kill them and, in fact, a lot of people felt this was distasteful (See: Karl-Otto Koch for a radical example of this.) but you can see that he held a very uneducated view on race (confusing Aryan to mean indo-iranian, which is just a subgroup of the so called "root-race" known as "aryan"...If you understand, but I'm sure not because you'd be less aggressive towards what I'm asking.)
>him to be one of your own so bad
There's no reason to accuse me of something I'm not. I'm just asking a question, I'm so tired of dealing with midwits here who cannot comprehend this nuance. Not everything is for rhetoric sake. Some one brought it up and I'm responding with questions that contain assertions due to what I do know. For example, I do know that mythos is for origin myths which contain structures on how one is supposed to aim to be like. This is not always the case, sometimes they are examples of what not to do. I reduced this to saying they contain morals.
>Pagans
I don't even want to know.

>>22489120
>I'm referring to academic discussions... Keep up.
Ah, quite right. Modern academic discussion on Tolkien, like the trans identity of hobbits and such. Massively legitimate, mate.
>This is why I'm asking
You seem to already know the answers to your questions. This is just sealioning.
>he held a very uneducated view on race (confusing Aryan to mean indo-iranian, which is just a subgroup of the so called "root-race" known as "aryan"
No, he had the right idea. It's a linguistic term. There's no such human group as "Aryan". That's a Nazi invention.
>If you understand, but I'm sure not because you'd be less aggressive towards what I'm asking.)
Oh, I know your kind very well. The "intellectual fascist" who acts like his views are innocent.
>I don't even want to know.
Good.

>>22487709
This site (and the internet in general) would be a much better place if all trace of /pol/ and its influences were utterly obliterated. Both left-wing and right-wing. All wokeism and anti-wokeism. Just get rid of it all.

>>22489163
>Massively legitimate, mate.
I never said it was legitimate. I just said they were happening in academia. Hence why I was asking. Although, this rejection of all general discussion about the subject matter is a bit odd... on a literature board.
>You seem to already know the answers to your questions
I just said I'm not a scholar and I've only read/heard this stuff in passing.
>sealioning
Oh. So, you're one of those kinds of people that arbitrary decide that someone is just wasting time asking things because you have some perceived disagreement with them. That's not just depressing, man, that's delusional. Asking for clarification or elaboration is the basis of communciation.
>It's a linguistic term... That's a Nazi invention.
Dude what? No. It's a mid to late 1800's term. When people talk about "aryan" they are referencing the "root races". You know the ones. The lemurians, aryans, hyperboreans, atlanteans, etc? For some reason, after the 1930's the english started making dubious claims about how iranians coined the term or something, but this is straight up a term borrowed from some precursor to research in civilizations. If I had to make a guess, it probably is in relation to the ancient egyptian craze.
>The "intellectual fascist" who acts like his views are innocent
I like how I've made people completely paranoid about me. You talk like someone I knew in IRC. First, I'm not a fascist. I'm only really vocal about my anti-usury stance, other than that, I don't care about politics. But yeah, if I actively engaged in things...? Yes, my worldview would be an absolute a threat to liberalism and marxism. I clarified earlier: Racialist, third positionist, sympathetic to eco-fascist views/actions, and really into Traditionalism (Guenon, Evola, etc. You know the lads.)
>Good
It just doesn't make sense for a protestant christian to be sympathetic to anything pagan.

>>22489234
Wrong about "aryan" (See pic rel). And "third positionist" is just another word for neo fascism. You're fooling no one, kid.

Also Protestantism is anti-Traditionalist (read: anti-perennialism)

>>22489189
Yes.
>>22489268
>see pic rel
Yes. Your picture is what I was referring to.
>third positionist is just another word for neo fascism
No. It's the umbrella term for anything that doesn't fit under the blanket of communism/marxism or capitalism/liberalism.
>kid
I'm laffin'
>Also Protestantism is anti-Traditionalist
You're trying too hard to hurt me between this and saying "kid". Not only is Protestantism a profane branch of Christianity, but I don't really like Christianity.
I'm done with the off-topic conversation though.

>>22489289
>Yes. Your picture is what I was referring to.
I'm sorry you don't like the truth, bucko. Aryan means Iranian and Tolkien correctly replied he wasn't that.
>No. It's the umbrella term for anything that doesn't fit under the blanket of communism/marxism or capitalism/liberalism.
Fascism. What else. All your views pretty much are fascism.
>You're trying too hard to hurt me between this and saying "kid"
I think I succeeded without even trying. Why even mention this? "Too hard" lol come on
>but I don't really like Christianity.
You mean you're not a Protestant? Wait, so then you were talking about Tolkien being a Protestant here: "It just doesn't make sense for a protestant christian to be sympathetic to anything pagan."? Because that statement doesn't make any sense given he was a Catholic and now you're saying you're not a Protestant. Weird.

>>22489319
>Fascism. What else. All your views pretty much are fascism.
But enough about Marxism.

>>22489319
Well, you asked questions and it would be rude to ignore them. I'll lean more into the discussion about Tolkien though, because at least it's on topic.
>I'm sorry you don't like the truth, bucko
No, I just don't like dishonesty. You are using presentism and I am talking about the definition, as it was widely understood, from that specific time period. I already said this, but I am talking about the root races, which were one of two major baseline theories of race. The second one involved creationism.
Now why does any of this matter? Because it shows that his understandings of race are exclusively second hand. He probably picked up this idea that Aryan means Iranian from some professor and thought it was a cutting edge theory, which is fairly understandable given the reverence of academia. I bring it up because an intellectual getting precompiled information like this third-hand is fairly normal today, but back in the early 1900's, that's a little weird.
>All your views pretty much are fascism
No. I have not shared an explicit view except that I am racialist (which is inherently not in line with either of the three main fascist groups: British Union of Fascists, Italian Fascism, and Spanish Fascism) and that I'm anti-usury, which is something Marxists would agree with me on if they weren't scared of the word for some reason. Those are not the only factors that make me "not a fascist", those are just the two I gave that can be associated with anything political, and no ideology has a claim to ecology. And while I did say I'm sympathetic to eco-fascism, this is really just clearly support for radical measures to protect our environment, something I don't think is en vogue to go against yet.
>I think I succeeded ... Why even mention this?
No, I brought it up because you're using the same rhetoric people use when they're lashing out. People who lose arguments write like that. I mention it to call you out for being a dick, just don't be a dick, it's free to not be shitty to people. I'm tired of a situation where it's like "Oh yeah, we're trying to have a good discussion and, oh, here come the marxist being shitty to people as usual." -- Just be a human.
>You mean you're not a Protestant?
No, I am not. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.
>he was a Catholic
Oh yeah? I didn't know that. This might be a good time to bring up that all my questions I were actually genuine again. Because I meant it. I don't know much about him. Frankly, it's an easy assumption that a Brit is a protestant because they generally are. I may have heard that he was catholic in passing, but where I am, people say that to imply they are a "good person" for reasons that should be obvious. So, can we now get back on topic? Or is the thread ruined? Because I really feel bad for the Scot here who reached out to talk to people about something he was interested in, found some good company, and then it got shit up because of idealogues. Ironically, I'm apolitical, just curious.

>>22491021
>No, I just don't like dishonesty.
Aryan meant Persian/Iranian until retarded Germans tried to change it in the 1800s in an attempt to appropriate the word and was changed then again in the early 20th century by Nazis, then later in the century the term became obsolete in academia and that's its current status. Tolkien is 100% right. There's no dishonesty here except by those Germans.

>Oh yeah? I didn't know that.
You didn't know Tolkien was Catholic? I find that hard to believe. Even the most ignorant /lit/bros on this board can tell you that.

>So, can we now get back on topic? Or is the thread ruined?
It's ruined since some autist decided to bring up Guenon and Traditionalism. /pol/ is the poison of this board.

>>22491071
Well, I had a big and nice response for you, but I hit escape and my focus was in the wrong window lol. Oh well, I will try to sum up what I can recall
>I find that hard to believe.
I'm fairly new to talking to people about books. I used to just read them. A friend of mine linked me to /lit/ and said I'd probably enjoy it because I have "a fuck tonne of books" in my family library, he was wrong, because I've only seen two or three decent threads in the last few months.
To put things into perspective, I've mentioned I'm in academia, it's mathematics. I had my BA, which had the liberal arts class, but if we don't include those two english/literature classes, I haven't had a teacher throw a book at me to read and discuss in more than 15 years. While I am somewhat well read, I have found that my pronounciation has been wrong before due to my lack of talking to people about these things. More than that, I only recently started to learn about the authors themselves. Most of my "analysis" for books has just been from a historic lens and I haven't had much in the way an education on the matter.
The only authors I really know about were Irish writers from the early 1900s and a few american authors. (Ezra Pound, who was a trip because I thought he was just a socialist that hated usury but he was an outright fascist; Flannery O'Connor, a very perceptive misunderstood american southern woman; and Aldo Leopold, who repaired depleted soil in his life time and I rarely expect writers to have any praxis so that is wild.) and I have recently started to learn about Lovecraft, Robert E. Howard, and Clark Ashton Smith because my wife said I would probably like cosmic horror, but it's relatively slow because the last few years have really ramped up in activity.
>Guenon and Traditionalism
I'm fond of this subject, but I do hate that people like to bring up modern politics with it. This is why I just assume that everyone who brings up the two everyone knows about (Guenon and Evola) are just pretending to care or even to have read anything by them. The act of engaging in politics, in the manner that they do at least, is inherently against the doctrines. Both Evolians and Guenonians would know that interacting with politics, in many degrees, is bad form. I can at least understand where an Evolian is coming from because Evola did write a few books on the matter, but his later material is about simply surviving in the collapsing world, not trying to repair it. Anyways, that doesn't really matter, I just see a lot of absurd
>/pol/ is the poison of this board
I see this messaging a lot and I disagree. I think the disproportionate reaction is what the real poison is. The common "/pol/tard" appears to just seek attention. If everyone ignored them, they would likely stop being as much of a problem. I say this and I do interact, but my goal is mostly corrective rather than to participate. All I ask is that people just know their foundations, and they rarely do.

>>22491201
Look, I don't mind what you guys believe in but when you try to shoehorn it into every literary discussion it gets annoying. This was meant to be a thread about fantasy but it was doomed the moment some guy mentioned Guenon. Most threads devolve into /pol/ shit or have a /pol/ troll and that's keeping the board from being better. Jannies and mods don't do a good enough job at keeping the trash out unfortunately.

>>22491225
>you guys
I know that I'm being peculiar here, but I really do not agree with being put into that group.
>when you try to shoehorn it into every literary discussion it gets annoying
This is where the problem really lines up. I didn't bring it up. I had only, exclusively, asked for some elaboration and explanations, with some reasoning behind my initial thinking on the matter. After I had seen two people disagree, I wanted to know more. So, I recalled a few things someone had brought up I had read in the past, and was asking about it, because I don't like to just take people at their word and we're just doing a little thinking about real world influences.
>Jannies not doing their job
Maybe they're just really busy. My imageboard has been being spammed with c. pizza pretty hard and it looks like a new campaign from several new sites that have popped up. They're pretty brutal, too.
I have to get some work done, but maybe someone can revive the thread.

>>22459542
>Do you regret his renunciation of fantasy in later years?
This is an interesting topic. I cannot find anything on it either. What would cause a man to renounce the thing he contributed to in such a great capacity? Does he fear his work becoming the basis of a religion in the distant future? Does he feel that we spend too much time dreaming and not enough time doing? Did he wish he spent his time on a different calling entirely? I'd love to know more about this.

why do you dislike Jorkens, OP?

>>22491071
>Aryan meant Persian/Iranian until retarded Germans tried to change it in the 1800s in an attempt to
No, it always referred to the Sintashta peoples. Iranians have like 16% Sintashta ancestry. Yaghnobis 40%, NW Euros 45-50, etc.

>>22491866
>In the Avesta scriptures, ancient Iranian peoples similarly used the term airya to designate themselves as an ethnic group, and in reference to their mythical homeland, Airyanǝm Vaēǰō ('expanse of the Aryas' or 'stretch of the Aryas'). The stem also forms the etymological source of place names such as Iran (*Aryānām) and Alania (*Aryāna-).

>Although the stem *arya may be of Proto-Indo-European (PIE) origin, its use as an ethnocultural self-designation is only attested among Indo-Iranian peoples, and it is not known if PIE speakers had a term to designate themselves as 'Proto-Indo-Europeans'. In any case, scholars point out that, even in ancient times, the idea of being an Aryan was religious, cultural, and linguistic, not racial

>>22491866
>>22491889
Lads, please stop engaging. This stuff doesn't matter, no one is going to have their minds changed. I just want to talk about good fantasy writers from the 18th and 19th century.

>>22459542
I'm a big fan of his book The King of Elfland's Daughter. A really wonderful book. Scenes from it recur to me at random moments very often.

bump

>>22486610
look at the fucking faggot

>>22459542
I've only read Elfland's Daughter and The Sword of Welleran. The latter cucked so hard on the ending after such an unbelievably masterful build up I started seething, shitting, and malding.

Watch this lecture if you're interested in wonder.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=efZbsnT0Q7w

OP here. Back to the thread now after the "/pol/tard" takeover.

>>22491857
Some of the stories are highly enjoyable, but I just can't fully get on board with this phase of Dunsany's writing as they stories are largely based on improbably events, characters delusions and they're all based in a kind of sardonic humour that isn't my cup of tea. This is the one thing I don't like much about Dunsany.

>>22492795
Do you mean the ending of KED? I actually agree with you on this. I feel that the denouement undoes a lot of what he was doing throughout the novel. The characters don't really impact how the novel finishes at all. I could go to into the metaphysical implications, symbolism and structural failings of the climax, but I'm a bit fatigued at the moment. I may write about this later.

bump

>>22493364
What about the claim you made about his renounciation of fantasy?