/lit/ - Literature

>Life is up to you and there are no obejctive values
>NO YOU CAN'T BECOME A NATIONAL SOCIALIST AND PROTECT YOUR PEOPLE FROM SUBVERSOION YOU JUST CAN'T

>>22381470
You realize you're reacting in bad faith, right?

>>22381475

Explain

>>22381470
What do David Cronenberg and Humphrey Bogart have to do with existentialism?

>>22381472
Kek exactly.

>>22381470
i still dont get what exactly makes you an existentialist
i look at lists of famous people considered to be existentialist and you have guys like camus, sartre, nietzsche, heidegger, kirkegaard, dostoyevsky, kafka and cioran, what the fuck do they all have in common? they have completely different beliefs

>>22381483
Rejecting existentialism and your radical freedom is embracing fascism, which is bad faith.

>>22381510
Yeah its a stupid fucking word. It was only invented by school board retards who know nothing about philosophy to sell nihilism to teens.

>>22381519
Shut the fuck up retard OP’s post didnt suggest anything youre trying to shill about so just shut the fuck up and finish your The Stranger summer reading project

>>22381519

You don't know what any of those words mean. I hope you're trolling.

By the way, worshipping your own freedom is cowardly and selfish and evil.

>>22381470
Personalism pretty much solved existenialism

>>22381572
elaborate

>>22381519
Not him, but labeling someone a "fascist" and thus acting in bad faith (which you still haven't explained, just reiterated) just because they disagree with your philosophy and the philosophical concepts connected to it, seems to me to be ironically in bad faith.

>>22381470
They are imbeciles, especially that bug eyed embryo JPS, they make a big show of their "existentialism" but ultimately arrive at sentimental tripe or some asinine political philosophy...many people arrive at such conclusions without these pseudo-intellectual pretensions of existentialism...for all their fussing about, they all seem to end up as deluded left wing imbeciles...have you ever met a self proclaimed existentialist who wasn't a liberal humanist...?

>>22381472
Lol so many

>>22381472
existentialism was invented by a national socialist

>>22381775
Kierkegaard was NSDAP?

>>22381777
>Kierkegaard
not existentialist

>>22381762
>sentimental tripe
Why you call it sentimental tripe? You realize you don't need a God to be a good person, right? That's the breakthrough that existentialism made.

>I'm getting old and becoming more social conservative
WOOOOOOOOOOOOOW!

>>22381788
This is the type of nonsense I am talking about...the stoics had a saying like this..."do not argue about what a good man is, be one"...this sounds all well and good, wonderfully liberating and humane...however, these admirable sentiments are deployed to gloss over the rather insoluble issue of what exactly a so called "good person" really is...and if this issue isn't resolved by God, it is left to the ad hoc deliberations of fallible humans...also, the existentialists were hardly the first to probe these ideas, Epicurus for instance preceded them by over 2000 years...they merely formulated these ideas in such a manner that concluded that you did not need God to agree with them, or the particular ideologies of their time...and that once liberated from dogma you are free to become something between a Maoist and liberal humanist, but no further than that

>>22381853
>and that once liberated from dogma you are free to become something between a Maoist and liberal humanist
But isn't that just common sense? Why would a good person want to be a fascist? It' would be a contradiction.

>>22381865
If Germany had won the war, the "common sense" would be that fascism was good and you wouldn't notice the difference...it isn't wise to put to much stock in what is common...anyway, fascism is a stupid phrase...it has departed its meaning as a political ideology and has come to mean "evil" or anything that is too harsh or nasty...

>>22381788

>You realize you don't need a God to be a good person, right?

There is no "good" without God.

>>22381897
I hope you aren't OP, because if you had actually read Sartre you would know that without God you can still have good and bad faith.

>>22381882
>If Germany had won the war, the "common sense" would be that fascism was good
In Spain fascism won the civil war and most people still could realize fascism was bad.

>>22381931

There is no "good" or "bad" without God.

>>22381997
It's really ironic you say that, because you're literally acting in bad faith.

>>22382027

Explain. You honestly come off like a college kid who just read Sartre and is repeating whatever you read. Use your own words and explain what you mean. And also explain how anything can be good or bad without an objective truth (God).

>>22381470
Existentialism is by far the weakest cope for life concocted since the death of theistic virtues.

>>22381596
The entire of project of existentialism posits that people need to make sense of thrownness but personalists know the problem and solutions begin and end with you.

>>22381510
>what do they all have in common
"Sentient life as a human is always shit [insert cope here] is the solution."

>>22381865
Well the thing is about that is that a person of good moral character will want to appear as heroic and elite as possible and would expect the same of others.

>christcucks seething because they're too dull to imagine themselves being good people without God
>/pol/tards seething because the existentialists disagreed with the ideology that industrialized murder within the lifetimes

>>22382089

>midwits still don't understand that one cannot even have a concept of "good" without God

>>22381997
There is. Just because these are mankind's inventions doesn't mean that the concept is non-existent. If your point is: "if it isn't truly objective than it isn't truly real" then you would be incorrect; pretty much everything from our daily lives is made up nonsense looking from a distance.

>>22382128
>sociopath needs a father figure to tell him the rules

>>22382136

You are a clown. Nothing you just said makes any sense. Nothing in your life has any meaning. You are a vapid shell of egotism.

Good cannot exist without God. You can dance around it all you want, but without God there is nothing. Deep down you know it but don't want to accept it. Your ego is raging out of pride. Your ego cannot accept that you are not the center of your universe.

But there is another way. Humble yourself. Find humility. Search your soul to realize to realize that you are, deep down, a good person, and then figure out what that means. No, it is not some artificial construction of society. You are a good person but you are afraid to admit it because it will require responsibility and it will require subordinating yourself.

>>22382143
there are no rules of the game. just "bee" yourself!

>>22382146
this effortpost will be lost on shitposters

>>22382143

See >>22382146

You do not understand God. You have a child's view of God. God is existence. God is goodness. You do not understand that goodness and sin are not "rules." To sin is to turn away from reality itself. God does not arbitrarily set rules for heaven. God is infinite goodness, so to be in God's presence you must also be perfectly good. It is the same as 2+2=4. It is not a rule. It just is. Sin is separation from God. We call that "bad" because it is the lack of goodness.

>>22382136
Something I've noticed is that right wingers have a really hard time understanding that fascism is still bad even if morality is subjective. Just thinking about it short circuits their little brains.

>>22382156

btw, that's why man is mortal and must die. Because to be eternal is to be in the presence of God, and one cannot be eternal with any sin, because God is perfection and sin is the lack of goodness. Adam and Eve doomed humanity with their original sin. Luckily for us, though, God is ultimate mercy and forgiveness, so he gives us another chance. But it's up to you. God will not force you to join Him because without free will there can be no love. Sin is the consequence of free will, which is necessary for love.

>>22382156
lol this reads like a schizopost.

There is no god. If I were somehow able to convince you of that, would you immediately start murdering people? If that's the case, maybe you, specifically, should continue to believe.

>>22382161
This is too real. Every time I've tried to explain existentialism to them the conversation goes like this:
>Existentialist: Okay, so God is dead and it's up to us to be good people and create our own sense of morality
>Right winger: Hurr durr so nazis are good then?
>Existentialist: Uhh, no?
>Right winger: But you said it's up to us to create our own sense of morality
>Existentialist: Yes. God is dead and it's up to us to be good people and create our own sense of morality
>Right winger: Hurr durr so nazis are good then?
They just don't get it.

>>22382190

You read it as schizo because you do not even have an inkling of understanding the depth of humanity. Once again, humble yourself. Be open to learning. What I am telling you has been taught for 2000 years and yet you are clueless about it.

There is a God. Have you personally delved into each argument for the existence of God and satisfied yourself that they are false? Have you worked through Aquinas's Five Ways? Anselm's ontological argument? The cosmological argument?

>If I were somehow able to convince you of that, would you immediately start murdering people?

No. That's what you don't understand. People don't not murder people because they are simply following the rules. They don't murder people because they are intrinsically good. That goodness in your heart that makes you not want to murder, that makes you feel remorse when you do something bad, that is your conscience. That is divine. That is God. Meditate on that. Explore that. Forget all the philosophers and books, forget the Bible, forget everything outside yourself, and really focus on who and what you are. You will find God inside of you. I promise.

>>22382210

Once again missing the point. Without God, you have no objective basis to say that Nazis (or anyone else) are bad. Yet you still believe they are bad. You still have a sense of right and wrong. See >>22382213

>>22382170
so going to heaven is completely alien to any human experience?

seems alien and spooky to me desu

>>22382213
Different anon. Aquinas’s Five Ways and Anselm’s Ontological Argument were completely btfo’d by Kant. They also have nothing to do with the real meat of Christianity, which is the fact that you think a super-Jew rabbi created the universe and died so his dad who is just him wouldn’t punish us. Your whole ideology is literally fucking retarded. You think it sounds reasonable because a lot of idiots and sometimes smart people bought into it because the whole of society promoted it, and it has a sense of mystery and awe and “goodness!” Saying “god is existence” or “god is love” is meaningless.

>>22382215
Nobody is right or wrong it is all just animals striving to propogate and influence their environment. God does not solve this issue, his moral standards are abritrary and “God said so!” doesn’t make it morally correct. If God said “thou shall rape!”, most humans would universally regard it as immoral.

>>22382213
>If I were somehow able to convince you of that, would you immediately start murdering people?
>No.

That's all I needed to hear.

>>22382190
>If I were somehow able to convince you of that, would you immediately start murdering people?
If I could get away with it, yes. Anyone who wouldn't, is brainwashed by society and religion.

>>22382237
Half of the people in this world think stoning faggots to death is normal because of Allah, it would be the same with Rape. But that doesn't happen because God is good.

>>22382259
I genuinely think there's nothing wrong with raping a woman who is asking for it. Whoring is consent.

>>22382272
Right on

>>22382231
Go to bed, Timmy

>>22382210
Good people and nazism are wholly dependent on subjective interpretation, since we make our own morality, the two can either be connected or disconnected depending on whom you ask. Since existentialists don't actually believed in objectivity or a unified consensus of knowledge their entire thesis falls apart at any mention of what actually defines "good"

>>22382272
What is a woman asking to be raped? Being raped is against your will, there's no rape if one wants it, otherwise is purely agressive fetish. Real rape is bad not only in a moral perception, but the amount of trauma is prejudicial for society.

>>22382297
Tell me you haven't read Sartre without telling me you haven't read Sartre. You can act either in good or bad faith. Being a nazi is acting in bad faith.

>>22382297
Yes, without objective morality, you can try to argue that Nazism is good — you probably won’t succeed, though, because you’ll need some iron-clad logic and extraordinary evidence to convince everyone else that it’s okay to shoot people in the street and gas children. The argument itself isn’t enough. Most people aren’t missing the parts of their brain required to feel empathy or think their way through a debate (and those who are total sociopaths would probably be doing horrible things whether morality is objective or not).

>>22382341
>convince everyone else that it’s okay to shoot people in the street and gas children
What if those people and children are MAGA or russians?

>>22382346
Okay, let me rephrase it. You’ll need some iron-clad logic and extraordinary evidence to convince everyone else that it’s okay to shoot INNOCENT people in the street and gas children

>>22381572
>>22382068
But Existentialism is Personalist, Buber is the most obvious example of it.

>>22382231

>Aquinas’s Five Ways and Anselm’s Ontological Argument were completely btfo’d by Kant

Yeah, no. But feel free to quote and cite.

>>22382356
>you can try to argue that Nazism is good — you probably won’t succeed, though, because you’ll need some iron-clad logic and extraordinary evidence to convince everyone else that it’s okay to shoot people in the street and gas children

Social acceptance is different than it being a positive good

DO YOU EVEN READ

>>22382346
I’m against the industrialized murder of any group. Also, I like all my MAGA and Russian bros.

(the other guy who replied wasn’t me)

>>22382341

Why is it wrong to murder?

>>22382374
Yeah, you can fuck off. I'm as much of a bleeding heart as it gets, but I feel no pity for russians dying in Ukraine.

>>22382316
MORE LIKE SHARTRE AMIRITE

>>22382364
It’s minor error to conflate the two

>>22382356
Who decides they’re innocent?

>>22382716
Existentialism adds to personalism, and is therefore an improved form of it.

>>22382146
>Humble yourself.
Seems like you could use some of that advice too.

>>22382341
>you probably won’t succeed
they convinced 70 million germans to that once

>>22383085
*forced

>>22382356
Read the Posen speeches. Himmler makes it very clear why the children cannot be regarded as innocent, and why gassing them is indeed a moral act

>>22381788
were any of them good people?

>>22381939
>most people
>communist scum artist

>>22382089
How many covid shots did you get

>>22383087
So what? As the last few years in America have shown most people will go along with whatever the powers tell them to. That is how people have always been.

>>22383087
sure thing herman

>>22382147
kek

>>22381472
Bit of a strawman but yeah, that's the main problem i have with it.
>Yeah dude you are radically free
>But if you dont do what i think you should do, you are actually acting in bad faith, or we'll spend 1000 pages deconstructing you with Freudian psychoanalysis on how you're actually acting out of repressed sexual urges.
It's funny that Sartre hated and admired Céline so much, because Céline actually put existentialism into practice by trying to be as unsavory and offensive as possible.

>>22381470
Read Spinoza(PBUH), especially part 3-5 of the Ethic and all the political works

>>22381519
Okay, and?

>>22384691
Fascism is not tolerable, even if morality isn't objective. I don't get why that's so hard to understand for right wingers.

>>22385549
Morality is subjective but in terms of humans a general consensus can be reached on many of the major issues. Fascism directly clashes with basic, widely accepted moral principles like “murder is bad”, and “treat others how you want to be treated”. I believe these principles stem from the nature of our species as a communal animal. Maybe we’d have more fascists if we were highly evolved ants instead.

>>22385579
>widely accepted moral principles like “murder is bad”, and “treat others how you want to be treated”.
You're wrong if you think those principles have been widely accepted through every society in history. But more important than that, the Third Reich did follow those principles for the in-group, which were the vast majority of the country. Killing or imprisoning the out-group isn't seen as immoral anywhere, including the liberal world. Even the crazy leftists who think black criminals are victims of the system and should be released, even they have their own version of an out-group, and they won't be so charitable to them. Very few things are universal to the human experience. The friend-enemy distinction is one of them. The main difference between the Third Reich and the liberal world is who they decided to befriend. But morally, they are equivalent.

>>22385579
>Fascism directly clashes with basic, widely accepted moral principles like “murder is bad”
Is this not also the case with other accepted systems of governance, such as with liberal democracies? Or is judicially sanctioned killing not murder in your opinion?
>I believe these principles stem from the nature of our species as a communal animal
How does literally every ancient culture throughout human history figure into your vision of man? Unless you contend that killing in war does not constitute murder? But then again maybe you'll say it depends on the circumstances, or whether perhaps the war is justifiable. Either way this leads us to the conclusion that the definite requirements of a murder depend on subjective assessments which exist outside of killing in and of itself. Furthermore, if you appeal to the justification that your conclusion may not be 'objective,' but predicated on wide consensus which represents a kind of truth, first consider that you did claim to objectivity when you claimed your conclusions were predicated on human evolutionary psychology, i.e. your particular conception of murder is an inherent feature of human psychology which fascist ideology distinctly denies. Second consider that consensus is also subject to time and place, such as I suggested, mentioning earlier human cultures. Not a fascist, but sit and think your positions through more thoroughly, please.

>>22382392
NTA but you're not much of a bleeding heart then if you can't empathize with cogs in a machine doing a politician's bidding

>>22383066
No, adding Thomism to personalism is what improves it but nice attempt.

>>22385830
Ok prove it. What does the Thomist do that compares to the I-Thou in Buber, or the Look in Sartre?

>>22385579
>Fascism directly clashes with basic, widely accepted moral principles like “murder is bad”, and “treat others how you want to be treated”
Every state ever has violated those principles. Your understanding of the world and government is reddit tier.

>>22381472
>PROTECT YOUR PEOPLE
He gets a star for trying.

>>22381470
I ordered Sartre’s book on Baudelaire a few hours ago. Anyone read it? I love Baudelaire but never read Sartre so I’m going in blind

>>22382170
Death cult justifications, your argument to the absurd would be dying by way of accident asap.
Christianity given in its historic context needed this to justify martyrdom, sadly it became one of their core tenants and now became their Achilles heel. It is unable to cope with the modern assessment and value of life.

>>22381470
So you're a Christian edgelord?

>>22385630
>is judicially sanctioned killing not murder in your opinion?
It can be.

>this leads us to the conclusion that the definite requirements of a murder depend on subjective assessments which exist outside of killing in and of itself.
Yes, obviously.

>you did claim to objectivity when you claimed your conclusions were predicated on human evolutionary psychology
I did not. My claim that morality is a product of evolution is not a claim to objectivity, any more than saying that “bipedalism is a product of evolution” is a claim to objectivity. Bipedalism is not objectively good, and neither is human morality. It just is.

>i.e. your particular conception of murder is an inherent feature of human psychology which fascist ideology distinctly denies.
Murder is an unjustified killing. To the fascist, extermination of the other is justified, i.e. not murder. The problem lies in the mass justification/“otherization” of the persecuted group. It is simply difficult to convince people that those they interact with on a daily basis should be killed. It can be done, of course, but it is hard, especially on any significant timescale.
With external enemies, as in war, it is far easier. Not only do you have no particular bias towards complete strangers, you will be shielded from the consequences of your actions in a way that is impossible in genocide. When the war is over you can go home.
The nature of fascism almost necessitates an internal enemy, which is why I believe it is inherently unstable.

>Second consider that consensus is also subject to time and place
Obviously.

>Not a fascist, but sit and think your positions through more thoroughly, please.
I’ve thought it through plenty, bud.

>>22386233
>NNNNOOOOOOO MURDER IS GOOD OR YOU’RE REDDIT

>>22381470
Sartre is the only philosopher i have ever dismissed on physiognomy alone.

>>22382231
> you think a super-Jew rabbi created the universe and died so his dad who is just him wouldn’t punish us
Reddit’s understanding of Christianity lmao

>>22381470
Modern existentialists were all mindbroken by based Kierk and their writings are how they attempted to cope.

>>22381472
Liberalism really never recovered from the challenge of fascism and with the collapse of communism as a counter weight it (for both better and worse) is returning to power across the west

>>22384691
This

>>22385549
Because under a framework where everything is truly meaningless EVERYTHING is truly meaningless
There can be no exception coherently

>>22388863
Fascism is in the process of getting neutered like communism. Meloni is the first experiment in that direction.

>>22388878
Fascism is the definition of acting in bad faith. You obviously haven't read Sartre.

>>22388878
I could se that case made
But it’s going to rise fully before it falls anon.
In particular I could se it basically taking over the EU as the US undergoes it’s next reorganization of the dollar (past cases of this for Econ nerds was between the late 1970s and early 80s and before that between the late 1910s and and early 1930s and before that in the years after the civil war)
Europe depends heavily on US finances and NATO at the moment and as America turns inward (as it has in every past currency crisis/reorganization) I could se fascists taking the opportunity to provide basically functional solutions to problems international liberals fundamentally can’t.
I give the idea login at the least a decade of prominence on the continent with majorities in the EU parliament, policies actually enacted ect

>>22388873
Fascism is the definition of acting in bad faith. You obviously haven't read Sartre.

>>22388963
Explain what you think provides a meaningful refutation anon

>>22388987
Fascism denies other people their radical freedom.

>>22389004
Yeah I get you from a first principles perspective
But by sartres own admission those principles are subjective
From a tribe existentialist perspective it’s all (fundamentally) jerking off in the wind
You aren’t required to support fascism
But to pretend like there is an othological critique cuts against the heart of existentialism

>>22389004
Isn't the point of radical freedom that it cannot be denied?

>>22382392
NTA but you're a massive hypocrite, you make people on the left look like massive retards

>>22382297
Yes. God is dead and it's up to us to be good people and create our own sense of morality

>>22382381
Murder disrupts the bonds that hold society together, and causes pain and injustice. To recognize the sanctity of life is to promote virtue over violence. No mention of God required.

>>22382062
Good is the absence of suffering. No mention of God required.

>>22389718
>injustice
>sanctity of life
>virtue
>No mention of God required

>>22389724
Virtue arises from Natural law