/lit/ - Literature

DESSERT WARFAIR

>>22234488
>you can't write fiction
>you just can't ok
Seriously, what were you expecting out of it?

>>22234488
You really focus on the unimportant stuff in Dune

Read Messiah and you'll discover that the portrayal of the Fremen actually resonates with your right-wing perception of Islam.

>>22234488
Wait until you find out that Fraud Hackbert stole all the actually good parts from another book called The Sabres of Paradise (even copy pasting whole paragraphs).

>>22234488
I liked it when the bad guys were depicted as fat, gluttonous, degenerate, incestuous, gay, treacherous rapist cheaters. My favourites actually

>the sauerkraut warriors are tough because their planet sucks ass and culls the weak
>the fremen are even tougher because their planet sucks harder than anyplace
Makes sense to me.

>>22234488
>movie comes out
>extremely popular
>contrarian retards come out in droves
>complain about a book that filtered them
>you can tell them by the fact they're plotfags

>>22236648
The Fremen also have the advantage that the Sadukar are used to fighting with shields but can't use them in the desert.

>>22234488

It was a suicide bombing. Did you even read the book?

>>22234488
The Fremen will literally rape and pillage their way across the universe. What's Mary Sue about that/

>>22234488
That is true, but it's also irrelevant.

>>22236849
>What's Mary Sue about that
Never read fanfic or LN, have you? A lot of writers admire rabid dog protagonists.

>>22234488
>also there are millions of them, somehow, and they are always in the right place at the right time
Well yeah, they're an economic powerhouse paying incomprehensibly huge bribes in spice to the Spacing Guild to prevent recon satellites being put in orbit over Arrakis. There's that one foreign stronghold in Arrakeen and then the whole rest of the planet is Fremen sietches going about their business. The Harkonnens thought they had subjugated the planet when in reality they were just harassing a tiny fraction of the population and harvesting a spice crop that was small potatoes compared to the real trade going on between the Fremen and the Guild.
If you're going to speedread, you should actually be able to.

>>22234488
>>whoa dude these desert sand tribespeople are actually le BADASS warriors and can effortlessly oneshot Sardaukar "heh..we lost 2 men to their 100..an even fight.."
>>yeah they also have crazy technology and magic and are basically better in every way to every other factions mkay..also there are millions of them, somehow, and they are always in the right place at the right time...nothing personal, harkonnens"
Whats wrong with this? It'd be like if China decided to fuck up Africa with their more advanced technology against the negros spears and rocks.

>>22234488
One of the themes of the book is that while humans desire peace, they need strife
Both Arrakis and Salusa Secundus are horrible and incomprehensibly deadly planets, therefore they breed people that need to hone their abilities to the very limit
Over time this made the people of these planets near superhuman when compared to the rest of the galaxy
But between Dune and Salusa, the former is far more hostile to human life, this forced the Fremen to develop a far harsher way of life - Paul and Jessica truly realise this fact, when they notice that the Fremen were shocked that Paul was crying (ie, wasting water) for someone that insulted him (and they were also surprised Paul didn't want to kill a man just for that, showing just how little they think of human life), meaning the Fremen have a completely warped sense of "humanity" (the individual doesn't matter, only the collective, the sietch)
Plus Arrakis has something else Salusa lacks - Spice - and this Dune has in such abundance, that outside of cities the very air is filled with it, making it impossible for anyone living here not to have their consciousness expanded by it

There's also the spiritual themes
The Sardaukar, despite being an elite force, have with the centuries of complacency degenerated greatly
No Longer are they the Emperor's fanatic warriors, now they are merely thugs - just better equiped and conditioned than your average house soldier
The Fremen however not only have their spiritual warrior traditions very much alive, Paul's ascension to Messiah inflamed their spirits to suicidal zealotry, they truly fight for something greater than themselves

Finally the Fremen have been on Dune for millenia and have conquered its dangers
It's natural they've found a way to safely inhabit the desert and multiply their numbers

>>22234488
And then a teenage boy and bg witch can overpower any of them including their leader who is supposed to be the strongest among them. But I guess Atreides family is just on a whole different power level completely from every other else. Not even harsh and rigorous Sardukar training could surpass their super secret unique technique.

>>22236681
>trained to fight with the shield
>in a setting where shield is basically useless because of blasters
Genius

>>22234488
Yeah but it's relatable

>>22234488
the sardaukar had grown complacent and were in their decline, so they could not put up as great a fight. additionally, they were only used to fighting with shields as some other anon pointed out. without shields they were fucked. fremen on the other hand had spent generations on the most inhospitable planet in the universe, were extremely hardy, and undoubtedly had the home advantage. they were also united under a single cause rather than just being a hired militia like the sardaukar were, further strengthening their conviction. anyway, when they lose this cause and the planet becomes more hospitable, the fremen completely fall off, as shown in messiah and children. this mirrors exactly what would the sardaukar went through, just later than them.

>>22237521
paul and jessica were only able to do that because the bene gesserit had propagated the legend of a lisan al gaib within fremen culture untold years before the story began.

>>22234681
Lol this shit again
Go on and post the paragraphs.
Hell, I'll settle for a sentence

>>22237524
if you fire against a shield you also die in the explosion
besides using weapons against shield is forbiden since it's pretty much a death sentence to break landsraad treaties

>>22237575
"To kill with the point lacked artistry."

>>22237643
What's stopping anyone from using kamikaze type troops? I can't believe they just didn't bother to account for the situations where shields would be useless.
>>22237552
Nope, they straight up wrecked freemen shit before all those bg stuff were even brought up. Not to mention Paul's duel which he easily won.

>>22234488
herbert WAS a hack but not because the fremen were overpowered

>>22236857
>fanfic
>writers

>>22234488
>yeah they also have crazy technology and magic
>he doesn't know about their arrangement with the Guild or the legacy of the Bene Gesserit
Try actually reading the book, you ignorant oaf.

>>22235379
you could have stopped at "fat" and the rest would have been understood

>>22234488
Herbert had some based ideas, but fuck me he ruins the experience of reading fiction by being an irredeemably poor writer.

Every paragraphs reads like this:
>"Why, Prince Juildam Williamson Chang III, I didn't expect you at the gala this evening, have troubles on Binelli Primus resolved themselves?"
>The Prince studied the representative of the Jelqing Guild - the guild which maintained an iron grip on all jelqing in the known universe by Imperial mandate no less - and arrived at many uneasy conclusions. He had implied that the troubles 'resolved themselves', but surely a man of his standing would know that the troubles to which he referred - those involving the rebels unhappy with the latest hahmilya tax - could not possibly have resolved themselves, what was he implying? Could it be that he wanted the Prince to rebuke him and cause a public scene, thus weakening his social standing with the other Great Houses, or perhaps it could mean that..."

And on and on and on, the exposition and plain text 'this is what the character is literally thinking right now' never fucking ends.

>>22238334
When your setting is especially weird and original, exposition becomes necessary.
And when your characters all have ulterior motives, internal monologues become necessary.

>>22234488
I thought it was fine because those people had been constantly exposed to the most OP substance in the universe. Also, they were guerilla fighters in their own homeland. When has that ever gone badly in history? Once or twice? Without Paul, they probably would've been slowly chipped at with huge weapons and ships. If anything Paul's the real Mary Sue. For the second half of the first book anyway

>>22238497
>When has that ever gone badly in history? Once or twice?
lots of times. did you entirely forget about imperialism? it is only contemporary military strategy that "cannot" handle guerilla fighters.

>>22238513
Topography has a lot to do with it. Regions with a lot of natural cover (e.g. Afghanistan, Vietnam) are hard to conquer. Places like India and Egypt are much easier.

>>22238334
Bruh that was some good shit was that improvised?

>>22238622
I second that. For a jest post it has some fine prose.

>>22234488
SCI-FI is garbage, what's new.

>>22237661
People didn't break the rules like the using blasters against shields or butlerian laws because whichever army did it would be cut off from choam. Paul got away with it because he had the spice for leverage and could do whatever he wanted.

>>22238968
Even so, the whole "shield feedback blows up the lasgun" idea was retarded, and not even necessary.

>>22238978
It's a plot device so they could have muh honorabu hand to hand light saber tier fights.

>>22237661
>before all those bg stuff were even brought up.
What the fuck are you talking about? Using the myth to their advantage is set up from the beginning of the book.

>>22238989
But you don't even need the feedback effect. Just make shields impervious to lasguns, so you need to get up close and stab people. Bingo, cool knife fights.

>>22239013
I was talking about their first encounter with the freemen in that cave where they had to fight them first.

>>22239013
I would assume that anon also means the scene where Jessica catches Stilgar by surprise using misleading body language and completely manhandles him.

>>22237521
>But I guess Atreides family is just on a whole different power level completely from every other else. Not even harsh and rigorous Sardukar training could surpass their super secret unique technique.
The big deal with the Sardaukar (and Fremen by extension) is that they're a LARGE fighting force all at an exceptional level of skill compared to other armies. Extraordinary individuals can and do outmatch them- see Duncan Idaho, Feyd, Gurney, etc. Jessica has Bene Gesserit psychohax which she taught Paul, who was additionally trained from birth by some of the best available tutors and swordsmen in the known universe AND has literal prescience.
Members of the noble houses are definitely and explicitly not normal human beings. They have the resources of multiple planetary systems at their disposal in addition to all being unwitting participants in a multi-millennium eugenics program.

>>22239719
>Feyd
I don't remember him outmatching anyone btw, even that slave in the arena gave him hard time so he had to resort to cheating.

>>22237521
>who is supposed to be the strongest among them
In the Dune universe, DEX > STR, every time.

>>22239738
That's because the Harkonnen slavemaster was working for Thufir Hawat. He pitted a highly-motivated Atreides prisoner against him.
He also tried to assassinate the Baron using a slave with a poisoned skin blemish. After which, the Baron had the slavemaster strangled and spolied Thufir's fun.

>>22239738
Feyd (ostensibly) presented a threat to Paul

>>22238334
The stream of consciousness is very engaging to read and becomes especially so when Paul unlocks his ancestral memories

>>22238334
This lmao

>>22238334
And did he really have to spell out all "Ah"s and "Oh"s as A-h-h-h, this becomes really annoying when Count Fenring is introduced

>>22238513
>Imperialism
A bunch of small tribes fighting with weapons 500 years behind the invaders isn't guerilla warfare. It's your country getting raped like a 14th century English woman

>some movie/TV show/livestreamer/youtuber video essayist adapts/mentions some classic book
>for two months /lit/ is inundated with "THIS BOOK'S MC PROTAG'S MAGIC SYSTEM DIDN'T SUSPEND MY DISBELIEF, THE WAIFU HAREM WAS TOO TSUNDERE, I DON'T LIKE WHEN AUTHORS EXPLAIN THINGS, SHOW DON'T TELL, THE MC'S HERO'S JOURNEY HAD TOO MUCH DIALOGUE, IS THIS AN ISEKAI OR A MARY STU, THIS BOOK WASN'T AT ALL LIKE THE MOVIE AND THAT'S WEIRD AND FRIGHTENING FOR ME, WHERE ARE THE PICTURES?" threads from literal curly-haired half-niggers, who have never read a book in their lives and just tried reading 20~ pages on their cellular phone

>>22239877
That's because of his superior Harkonnen genes. Paul's genetic memory was fighting back against his bodily movements in the fight. Rather than resist the genetics closer to the patriarch, his ancestral blood wanted nothing more than to submit and worship him. That's the only reason the fight was close.

>>22238497
>>22238513
The British were constantly involving themselves into the Caucasus to spite Russia, with Fremen rebellion being also inspired by the Shamil's rebellion. A common trope of a British agent going native like Lawrence of Arabia to fuck shit up to another world power - except in the Dune, the Empire is Britain itself - a colonial joint stock venture of aristocratic houses selling opium to China while leeching off India, slightly rebranded with Oriental tones. So it would be like Lawrence of Arabia being double crossed by his own employers so he raises a jihad and ships space ayyrabs to scour space London and Toronto and shit.
Hence random Russian or Cossack (sietch, a Cossack settlement) terms sprinkled here and there, or Fremen speaking in Chakobsa, supposedly a Caucasian secret tongue of hunters and princes, to spice things up.

Except the Russians had conquered the Caucasus alright and are still there. The local mountain folk have a reputation of being physically and morally strong and unruly, if uncultured and generally stupid due to iodine deficiency and lack of activities different from sheep herding.
Funny enough they are common criminal and mercenary stock, and basically the Putin's guards, and as such have turned into the degenerate Sardaukar trope, as their performance in the Ukraine War is meh and totally underwhelming compared to their PR image of le superwarriors, and during the Prigozhin's mutiny they were literally afraid to confront them during their march on Moscow - the common Russian airborne held the road and prepped for battle while le Putin's finest were busily digging up like 50 kilometers to the side, lest Wagner mercs maul them all and move on.

Which Herbert is aware of and develops further in books 4 and 5, the Fremen going the same cycle the other militant and strong remote warrior people did after getting into state politics. Even like with Cossacks being a warrior people/caste trained in warfare from birth and some le ultimate cavalry regiments turning into LARPers, written 50 years before said LARPers appeared.

>>22238497
Another factor for overestimating guerilla warfare efficiency could be the legends of the American War of Independence, where mostly militia troops using irregular tactics on hometurf broke le scary British Empire's hold on them.
Except said empire was not yet the top G of century XIX, that was France which was actively at war with Britain, with allied Spain and the Netherlands no less. The British had to import German mercenaries because proper British troops and fleet were too busy handling a superpower and two powerhouses simultaneously in both North America, the Caribbean, India and the Mediterranean.

American freedom fighters would have been squashed if not for, you know, half the Western Europe tying Britain's hands over half the globe at that time.

>>22234681
Having read Sabres even within the opening chapter there are a considerable number of borrowings.

>>22238334
Kek, I don't agree with you 100% but this was a good laugh and a decent parody
>jelqing guild
dead

>>22238334
I read this in Simon Vance's voice.

>DUDE HARD PLANET MAKE STRONG MEN AND WEAK PLANET MAKE WEAK MEN
why was herbert such a chud?

>>22241194
I'm honestly surprised Herbert never named any of his Fremen characters Mohammed Chang-Gupta

The first set of dune books is boring. The only reason you should read it is so you can get to God Emperor through Chapterhouse.

>>22234488
>read dune
>ignore the reasons why Dune is great
> post on /lit/ about something contrarian for dopamine rush

Filtered.

>>22240592
You should read about the Ethiopian resistance against the Italians. It was literally spears versus tanks.

>>22241894
Dumbass. Colonial powers intentionally recruited troops from the most uninhabitable regions of their empires, because they knew a hard life breeds good soldiers.

>>22237416
>China, a hyperindustrialized despotic dystopia, not being the Harkonnens
It would be like if China invaded Africa, but the Africans were all badass jungle warriors who honed their skills from fighting lions and elephants constantly, destroyed the entire PLA and killed all the CPC leaders, and then went on to conquer the world while being led by some European guy.

>>22238622
Chatgpt

>>22243706
I didn't realize the gurkhas were so mongolic/sinitic. I just naively assumed they looked like other indians/pakis

>>22238402
>>22238622
>>22239936
>>22239994
>>22241592
>>22241700
Didn't expect my stupid little parody to get so many (you)s, thanks lads.