/lit/ - Literature

>>22229975
>Theologians who don't have the bizarre insistence that unbaptized babies go to hell
Christianity isn't some suit you can get tailored to fit what makes you comfortable. Accept the doctrine and get in line or perish in the lake of fire.

>>22230376
Psychopathic Calvinist detected.

>>22229975
Unironically Joseph Smith, look up chapter 8 of Moroni in the Book of Mormon.

>>22229975
Delete your post and rewrite it

>>22229975
Begome Anababdisd.
In all seriousness, there's nothing in scripture which suggests unbaptized babies go to Hell. The thief on the cross was saved and he was never baptized.
>>22230403
A conman not worth listening to.
>>22230376
You are right that the faith isn't something with which you can cherrypick, but no fear mongering is necessary for a doctrine built on speculation and not scripture.

>>22230376
Mfs will say shit like this and then claim "Christianity is the most rational religion."

>>22230433
>not worth listening to
Karl Barth said it best: a faith that can't handle looking at opponents seriously is not even true faith. A good faith is strong enough that it has nothing to fear in looking into others.

>>22229975
How is it bizarre unless you find consistency to one's rules bizarre?

>>22230726
Strong faith, total conviction, means that you will have no interest in looking into opposing viewpoints. Why would you bother exposing yourself to evil except perhaps to refute it?

>>22230726
Bizarre post to make in defense of Mormonism of all things, considering the lengths the LDS church has gone to hide unsavory facts about its history and the lengths it goes to now to hide its declining membership.

>>22230758
That just shows lack of faith, that your faith is too weak to sustain itself. Such a timid faith. Best to go forth and refute everything.

>>22230788
You should be ready to give even Satan himself a proper defense in a trial against him, so that the case against him is fair and the jury can decide that, even on the basis of the strongest defense, Satan is still guilty. If you can't do this, your faith is too weak.

>>22230726
Karl Barth had questionable beliefs and there's nothing to fear about Mormonism. It really is that dumb of a cult, the arguments for which are easily refuted by the fact it claims to be another revelation from Christ (Galatians 1:8-9 is the smoking gun). At least Muslims don't pretend to be Christian.

>>22230797
Thanks but I have higher ideals than making sure all trials are fair, especially in a hypothetical situation where the defendant is ontologically evil, and I grew up Mormon to boot. I've heard every defense of Joseph Smith's space Jesus sex cult and then some and you know what? It's a bunch of ridiculous shit no matter how hard you defend it.

>>22230791
>Not caring about stuff you are 100% certain is wrong shows a lack of faith

>>22229975
I don't understand why Calvinists even care about religion. If it's already preordained than God can kiss my ass and I'll just ignore him. What's he gonna do? Change his mind? He already decided so he's irrelevant to me.
>>22230376
If fear and threats are all he has to offer to make me get in line he isn't worth worshipping. Just an astral thug.

>>22229975
David "fluffy socialist" Hart

>>22229975
Theology is gay

>>22230834
Dumbass Protestants

>>22230859
This is basically genesis lol but God made men his sons and not slaves and therefore gave then autonomy to take what they will, good or evil. But still, I just don't think abrahamists are correct about god's benevolence. It just seems to me that the creator spirit is merciless but not malicious.

>>22230878
That's not even true though, God never wanted Man to have the knowledge of Good and Evil, he explicitly told them NOT to attain that knowledge. It was only Satan who tempted Eve which allowed Man to comprehend Good and Evil and truly have Free Will. God would have kept Man an obedient, ignorant, serf.

>>22230897
Who cares what God wants? We have a right to be more than a mere toy to some entity. Fuck him this is our planet and we shall be the kings here until he throws a temper-tantrum and kills us like a child. Then he can try again and pretend he is more than a cosmic bully.

>>22230904
>Who cares what God wants?
Literally billions of brain dead religious people on the planet right now. The fact of the matter is the concept itself is ludicrous and makes zero sense which is why Theology is gay,

>>22230433
>In all seriousness, there's nothing in scripture which suggests unbaptized babies go to Hell.
John 3:3-6
Not straight up about damnation of unbaptized babies, but on this base it seems to me like a proper conclusion.

There is an idea of limbus peurorum/limbus infantium, which i find as kind of sweeten vision of excluding unbaptised but sinless (or nearly sinless) from heaven.

>The thief on the cross was saved and he was never baptized.
That is right that he was saved without being baptized - which adds a bit of nuances to the matter of link between salvation and batism - but haven't he convert? And babies are not really similar to this case because they cannot convert from one way of life to the other when they cannot even walk - mainly in nonliterally sense.

>>22230376
fpbp & based
There is only one True Faith; all others are heretical at best. True Christianity is not a buffet, where you can choose which and how much of each tenant to incorporate; it is not a "Build your own Sundae/(Sunday)."

While there is *only* One Truth, there are Six-Hundred & Sixty-Six Million Lies, and more.

Verification not required.

>>22230904
Did you feel like you were your parents' toy, or your parent's child?
>that's a trick question, because your salty atheism reveals that you were raised by a single mother and you probably got molested by her boyfriends or your stepfather

>>22231492
But you're just assuming the interpretation of Christianity that babies are evil is correct. And it all goes back to Augustine who was influenced by Manicheaism and Plotinus.

>>22231439
Baptism is spiritual; you don't actually need to be dunked/immersed/sprinkled in physical water... "baptism" can be a completely metaphysical event, occurring in a purely spiritual, non-physical sense. Physical baptism is just a ceremony; being wetted with blessed holy water is not necessary (and neither is circumcision).

>>22231503
Not evil but rather not worthy.

>>22231503
>interpretation... that babies are evil
Correct! Everyone born into this world is born in sin; fortunately, the souls of every baby in Hell were either freed during the Harrowing of Hell by Jesus Christ, or will be freed in accordance with the prophecies of the Rapture.

In the mean time... well, those babies are gonna be born again HARD!

>>22231533
Internet sadist who celebrates the cosmic torture of infant babies. Christianity is truly a religion of sociopaths.

>>22231548
Not celebrating; just stating interpretations of scripture. Is it fucked up? Arguably. Is that the way it is? That's the way it (likely) is.

I'll bet you feel bad for every criminal who's ever been punished for their crimes.

>>22231574
You believe infants being tortured is cosmic justice. I don't. Christianity is for sociopaths.

>>22231591
You believe that the young of a predatory, parasitical, pollutive species of hybridized demon-apes are, somehow, innocent. Anyway, it's not "cosmic justice," just "cosmic order." Yeah, it's pretty fucked up... but then again, so are we! Have you read the news. Many insane parents are forcing their children to eat hormone inhibitors/enhancers and making them undergo elective "gender reassignment" surgery, not to mention injecting them with experimental mRNA juice, not to mention a billion other wrong things. It's fucked all the way around.

I'll bet you believe in abortion, the inalienable right of women to fatally evict unwanted tenants from their whorish wombs. Tell me the truth: do you support abortion?

>>22231607
Anon thinks torturing infants for thousands of years is justice, then believes he has any moral standing to pontificate on ethics.

>>22230897
If men hadn't free will in the first place, Satan's temptation would be futile. I believe you haven't thought about this before, right?

>jumping through all these silly hoops to justify worshiping jews
kek christcucks

>>22231615
Ours is not to question the morality or ethics of God; ours is only to obey His commandments, praise Him, appreciate His works, and help others to find Him. If you wish to rebel against the single most powerful being in this and all other worlds, then I admire your tenacity, but lament your immaturity; once you've outgrown your limited perspective, He'll be waiting to welcome you home.

>>22231847
It's a sticky wicket, the whole predestination versus free will; having had many accurate prophetic dreams & visions as a child, experiencing existential crises in kindergarten due to my 100% accurate views of things before they happened (regardless of whatever I did), I grew to adopt a sane perspective between PREDESTINATION & FREE WILL:

>why not both?

This universe is far beyond human comprehension, and it is laughably simple compared to God; both free will & predestination exist, and we are in a constant state of potentiality.

To be clear, humanistic ethics and anthropocentric morality are complete & utter bullshit. I'll happily eat red meat, as will many others, despite knowing how much suffering this causes (protip: onions cultivation creates more suffering, as far more individual animals and entire environments are destroyed for Monsanto's monocrops).

If you're so moral, why aren't you out there, feeding, clothing & sheltering the homeless with your own money? Why aren't you giving the shoes off your feet and the clothes off your back to these starving degenerates? Why aren't you doing everything in your power to reduce suffering?

You also never answered my earlier question to you:

DO YOU SUPPORT ABORTION?
>the answer is almost certainly yes, because your a godless atheist

>>>22229975
>>>22231503
>>>22231548

These posters support a woman's right to abortion (murder) of their unborn babies, but get all butt-hurt about scriptural interpretations regarding the salvation of unbaptized babies.

If you abort a fetus, you deny it the opportunity to learn about and be saved by Jesus Christ; abortionists, their clients & supporters essential damn innocent souls to Hell.

Come down off your high horses and kneel before Jesus Christ.

>>22231880
Read Perelandra.

The infernalist larp is already getting btfo on the DBH thread, maybe two is a bit much.

>>22231921
Why?

>>22231502
I honestly don't care what they want either. Not everyone needs a master.

>>22231847
The real question is, How was Eve supposed to know it was wrong to disobey God and accept the temptation if she didn't yet have the knowledge of Good and Evil? How is it Just to hold someone accountable for their action when they were mentally incapable of assessing whether it was Good or Evil at the time of the action? It is incoherent to expect someone who does not know Good from Evil or Right from Wrong to make moral or free decisions. In short, the whole Garden of Eden story makes zero sense if you examine it for more than two seconds.

>>22231615
>>22232007

It doesn't matter if you "need" a master or not; God simply is the master, and that's a natural fact. You might not need uncountable trillions of stars (other than our sun), but they're out there, regardless.

Also, answer the question: what are your personal beliefs regarding abortion?

You seem to care a lot about the prevention of suffering; do you know how badly a fetus (which is an unborn baby human, fully capable of feeling much keener pain & fear than any normal adult, at a rate of time-to-experience which makes seconds feel like years, so an abortion feels like an eternity of the most agonizing torture imaginable, followed by a literal eternity in Hell).

You and all other shills in this thread are assumed to be jewish until you declare your stance on abortion (at which point we won't suspect; we'll know).

>read pic related cover to cover with the proper attitude & perspective

>>22232185
so sick of your type. anti intellectual anti human cowardice, yes that is who you are. there is not a jot of virtue in you.

>>22231920
A miscarried baby goes to hell? (or the eternal limbo cope).

It just doesn't make sense and it goes back to Augustine coping against ways to refute Plotinus and Manichaeism that he loved a bit too much. You don't see any of this baby-hating in the Cappadocians.

>>22229975
I don't think Origen believed in infant damnation. Don't recall it in Justin Martyr, Gregory of Nyssia, Eckhart, Bonaventure, Boethius, or Pseudo Dionysus. Nor is it in Boheme for a Protestant example.

Or even with Catholicism, Aquinas has babies going to Limbo, but that's some weird reach shit.

>>22232282
Oh, or Pleagius, whose independent works don't survive, but he seems too often maligned for a guy who was just into offering self help advice and Logos theology. Not really the arch heretic he is made out to be.

Origen is also too maligned, but people seem to have come around more that condemning him was more political, coming centuries after his death

>>22232185
I never mentioned abortion. I think you have me confused with someone else. Personally I don't like it but recognize that at least early stage abortion is an unavoidable fact at this point. Sad but we don't live in a kind world.

>>22229975
Lotta of sperg coping in this thread as if Augustine = Christianity.

This is Chrysostom on infant baptism:
"It is on this account that we baptize even infants, although they are sinless, that they may be given the further gifts of sanctification, justice, filial adoption, and inheritance."

>>22232380
>although they are sinless
NNOOOOOOOOOOO

WE MUST HAVE BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!!!!

>>22230847
Maybe they are preordained to care

>>22233235
That's retarded. It's just a worthless horse and pony show at that point. I honestly can't believe Calvin convinced anyone. Much less the there being over 100 million people dumb enough to still follow this.

>>22229975
Try the Bible. This isn't Augustine's "invention", it's Scripture. Read Romans for instance:

>Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned (Rom. 5:12)

How do you guys reconcile being racist and Christian?

>>22233740
Let's have some context. Nowhere in Romans 5 is "babies go to Hell," explicit or even, to my mind, suggested. I think the Orthodox were correct to reject original sin as a doctrine; the consequences of the fall are cosmic, not within the "seed" of man.

9. Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11 Not only is this so, but we also boast in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Death Through Adam, Life Through Christ
12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned—

13 To be sure, sin was in the world before the law was given, but sin is not charged against anyone’s account where there is no law. 14 Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who is a pattern of the one to come.

15 But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God’s grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16 Nor can the gift of God be compared with the result of one man’s sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.

>>22234276
>the consequences of the fall are cosmic, not within the "seed" of man.
Isn't man created, a part of the cosmos? If we aren't born in sin, then why do we die? Why do children die? Why do the Eastern Orthodox baptize their children if isn't really necessary? Why not wait? Why do we even have an inclination to sin in the first place, if our nature isn't fallen?

We can only hope that unbaptized children are saved by the Grace of God, but we cannot know this.

>>22234553
>We can only hope that unbaptized children are saved by the Grace of God, but we cannot know this.

We can only hope that the baptized are saved by grace as well. Or is the supposition that men can magically cleanse sins with created water like some sort of sorcerer? Clearly not, to think this way is to make the mistake of the Seven Sons of Sceva.

Thus, all are saved or not saved according to God's grace alone. Belief in God is not merely belief that God exists. "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder." (James 2). The Greek often translated as "belief," is pisti— loyalty, trust, faith. An essential element of faith is that God is righteous. What is righteous about torturing countless numbers of unborn infants and unbaptized ones? To present God as a horrific demon to others is itself a sin. It is to blaspheme the Holy Spirit.

>Why does man die?
Why indeed. Look at Gen 3:
"And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”

Man is condemned to death through banishment from paradise. The "genetic/seed," based original sin is Augustine's invention, maybe with some help from non-cannonical sourced like The Life of Adam and Eve.

The Bible is full of references of people who it claims "were found righteous," by God. But how? Where was their original sin? Why didn't Enoch and Elijah plummet from heaven because of their genetic disease?

The reductio ad absurdum of this is that it seems as though it should hold that Mary too should have this sin. And if it comes soleu through being human, then Christ too.

>>22231920
If unbaptized babies don't go to Hell, abortion is a moral good because it prevents them from damning themselves, which would be the most probable outcome of their lives.

>>22232379
This puts you in a category of lazy and wrong. Until you plead, "I don't know" then you are lazy and wrong, simple as.

>>22234936
More along the lines of not having a child's understanding of the world and realizing that things don't work as you want it. Grow up.

>>22234929
Right, babies have to go to Hell or we could save them all by killing them.

Likewise, the logical argument against those Protestants who claim that:

>"People who never had a chance to learn of Christ in their lifetimes won't be confirmed for not becoming Christian."

Is to point out that this entails that by burning every Bible, tearing down every church, and erasing all memory of the Christian faith from the world, Christians could save the human race from the threat of damnation. To be sure, the Christians who did this would go to Hell, but they would be "taking one for the team," saving all future people from the possibility of damnation, since, if one can't learn of Christ, one cannot be held accountable. Through this self sacrifice, Christians would be making a greater sacrifice than Christ, undergoing eternal torment instead of one day's worth, to achieve an even greater good, universal salvation.

But anyone reading either argument has good reason to question if maybe we have gone wrong somewhere. God HAS to consign most human souls (Christians have always been a minority of humans) to infinite torment otherwise... some humans could somehow save them from that torment? Gasp! What horror!

And it's not like Catholic theology isn't open to the same sort of argument. Why not fire off all our nukes and spread small pox around in an effort to extinguish the human race. After all, if we truly believe most people will suffer everlasting torment if they are conceived then we will be saving billions upon billions from this fate. We will be doing what apparently Christ could not, ending damnation.

The counter that: "God wouldn't let that happen. If you ended the human race God would restart it anyhow, and thus more would still go to Hell," doesn't put God in a better light. God can't throw "Jesus is the only way to salvation," across the sky written in stars as a miracle to get people to believe but God will do obvious miracles to ensure a continued supply of fresh souls, most of whom a destined for endless torture?

This God seems very different from the Word made flesh, Christ, who in John 17 prays:

>Father, the hour has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him...

>Father, I want those you have given me to be with me where I am, and to see my glory, the glory you have given me because you loved me before the creation of the world.

>“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Meanwhile, Protestants will claim Catholics slander Christ by saying that works are required for salvation. "What Christ's sacrifice not enough?" And yet they also say that Christ's sacrifice could only save a minority.

>>22234929
So what, you baptize the baby and then immediately slit their throats, ensuring their salvation?

This is a terrible argument. If abortion is wrong because it lets you "cheat God of souls to torment and lets man save souls," then the same is true if you just wait until the child is baptised before killing it by your same logic.

This is a sick way to view God. Sin is an illness Christ came to heal.

>>22235154
>you baptize the baby and then immediately slit their throats
This is unironically the rational and selfless thing to do in the context of Christianity. In Christianity, this is a fallen world, a trial, a challenge, something to be endured until one is reunited with God. Therefore, to ensure a soul gets to skip this life and be instantly reunited with God is the logical best case scenario in the Christian world view. It's only by borrowing from secular humanism that you would view this as abhorrent.

>>22235257
This argument only holds water against an Augustinian view.

>>22230379
Calvin did nothing wrong.

Calvin is the student of the ghost of Augustine

Calvin is just being honest of God's Behavior

>>22231871
I fucking hate Cathcucks and Orthocucks


Fucking garbage egoistical people

>>22233654
Shut up faggot


You never ever read Calvin's Writings in french

>>22235122
The consensus is among most Christians for most of history is that the doctrine of massa damnata is accurate, and furthermore, most *Christians* go to Hell, to say nothing of the rest of humanity. Therefore, why not eliminate mankind to prevent as many future humans from being damned as possible? Life has an infinite downside risk with a high probability of said risk being realized.

>>22235154
Sure, just go to Confession afterward. Fear of punishment merits imperfect contrition in Catholicism iirc, and fear of punishment would absolutely be merited.

Orthos and Baptists are right. Reject Augustinianism.

>>22234046
>Christianity was created in the 1960s, everyone before then was doing it wrong.
We have a glorious past that we're proud of and infidels are so afraid of it that they'll insist it was "not true Christianity," lol.

>>22232226
You are clearly pro-abortion, and either a jew or one of their useful idiots.
>sick of your type
Typical.
>anti intellectual anti human
Fuck intellectuals and fuck humans.
>cowardice
>not a jot of virtue
You've completely mistaken me for someone else on this anonymous forum. Hundreds of good people recognize my virtue.

Also, ffs, this entire conversation is just spitballing. Don't you ever, for the sake of argument, adopt & entrench a position, in order to explore & develop a deeper understanding? You sound like a butthurt pawn of the jews.

>>22232249
>miscarried babies' souls go to hell
Hey, I'm just interpreting the scriptures here; I'm not necessarily saying whether or not they're "evil" or whatever, just that that is the way they are. Far be it for any of us to understand God's infinitely wise reasoning.

>>22232379
>early stage abortion is an unavoidable fact
Sounds like you've allowed your Overton window to be slid in the direction of damnation. Unfortunate. It truly is sad that we lack the conviction to exterminate evil and make this world the kind of kind world we were taught as children. Thank you for your reply; perhaps the person whom I challenged to reveal their stance on abortion shall come forward, but I doubt that a jew would do that, or that a jew would ever deal honorably with anything.

>>22234046
>is racism christian?
YES.

https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/UhWOU6qm/thou-shalt-not-commit-adultery-actually-means-do-not-race-mix-not-do-not-cheat

Let me break it down thusly:

God commands the Israelites never to plant two different types of crops together, never to weave a garment from two different types of fabric, et cetera.

God commanded the Israelites to utterly annihilate certain "unworthy" tribes, to completely exterminate them, and NOT to take their women as wives, because the children of such unions would be racemixed inheritors of their mothers' peoples' evil.

The Ten Commandments... there is already a Commandment against "commiting adultery" in the contemporary sense: "Thou shalt not covet... they neighbor's wife...." That covers coveting everything, especially another's wife. The Commandment "Thou shalt not commit adultery," is *not* a redundant retread of "Thou shalt not covet..." in the original language, "adultery" more accurately translates to "miscegenate" in this case.

God hates when you combine things which He meant to be separate. He does not want the earth swarming with racially ambiguous mutts. He wants pure Whites, pure Blacks (which are referred to in the Old Testament as "Beasts of the Field," btw), pure Asians, et cetera. He'd probably utterly hate the Latin Americans, as they are racemixed to Hell & back (ironic, considering their slavish devotion to Catholic dogma). God despises racemixers. One of the only exceptions was Moses' Midian wife... that's a bit of an odd story there, involving his High Priest brother Aaron & Aaron's wife calling out Moses for coalburning. ;^P

>>22234046
https://alt.usage.english.narkive.com/UhWOU6qm/thou-shalt-not-commit-adultery-actually-means-do-not-race-mix-not-do-not-cheat
>from the link:
Everybody thinks the seventh commadment 'You shall not commit
adultery.' has something to do with cheating on your spouse.

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT. There is another commandment that covers that:

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's wife.' So what does adultery
mean? Let's look in the dictionary:

Adulterate - debase, make impure by adding a foreign substance.

Have you heard the phrase "pure, unadulterated"?

There you have it. Race mixing is outlawed in the Ten Commadments, but
even the Ten Commandments have been twisted in the zionist cultural
cesspool we have been born into..

>>22230897
>God has omnipotence
>God has omniscience
>God created everything, everything comes from him
>God has foreknowledge of all events, because he designed them
>Therefore God both knew of and intended mankind's eating of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil

Rectify this plot hole, bitch

>>22235591
>Hey, I'm just interpreting the scriptures here;

That's not what scripture says. Anything can 'interpret' scripture.

>>22234046
>>22235591
>>22235622

https://www.hope-of-israel.org/7thcommandment.html

The Synagogue of Satan -- international jewry -- strives to miscegenate all of the goyim races into a singular, amorphous, racially impure slave caste, over whom the goddamned kikes wish to rule.

They intentionally misinterpret the Bible to the goyim (but not to themselves). They tell the goyim: "the 7th Commandment forbids you from cheating on your wife!" This is a lie.

A husband is free to engage in sexual intercourse with other women outside of his marriage, and to marry additional wives. A wife is forbidden from engaging in extramarital sexual intercourse, however, for reasons obvious to any truly enlightened man.

Both men & women, however, are forbidden from sexual intercourse with anyone outside of their RACE -- especially reproductive sex.

>God DESPISES illicit combinations of things which do not belong together. For example: in the Old Testament, anyone with a non-Israelite ancestor -- even unto the 10th gen -- shall not be allowed to enter into the congregation, upon pain of death:

"A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD." ~Deuteronomy 23:2

>tl;dr: miscegenation & racemixing are SINS according the Holy Bible.

Thanks for reading.

>>22235682
>That's not what scripture says. Anything can 'interpret' scripture.
Then, pray, tell us: what *does* the scripture actually say? (Or would *that* also be an interpretation?)

>>22235672
Then punishment is nonsensical. God made Adam and Eve knowing they would fall, and then punished them because of the fall that God knew would happen when he made them. This turns God into a psychopath who inflicts pain and suffering in the name of justice even though He is the architect of the whole situation to begin with. This is like if you had a child and then beat the child because they were born. It makes zero sense and is just cruel for the sake of being cruel.

>>22235672
It's not a plot hole at all. It was all part of the plan. Just because there is suffering does not mean that everything is not working out perfectly according to plan. Your problem is that you have the perspective of a plaintive mortal and the morality of a self-entitled monkey, which is the natural state of mankind before achieving grace through Jesus Christ. Your inquisitiveness is laudable, however; earnestly pursue your lines of inquiry & research without any sort of prejudice, and your path shall lead you to God.

>>22235708
The author of a novel creates characters to suffer & die for the sake of the novel; the novel is not written to be a comfortable place for the characters to safely dwell happy within.

The farmer of a field does not plant & tend the crops for the sake of the crops themselves, but for the harvest of them.

God both reaps & sows; man merely weeps & woes.

>>22230897
>>22235712
>God never wanted Man to have the knowledge of Good and Evil
But also
>It was all part of the plan

>>22235708
Correct

>>22235712
>God's plan include punishing people for things that God planned to happen
This is where the logic of the story breaks down completely. What is the purpose of punishment if the origin of the condemned act was in the hand of God the whole time? It's like making a puppet do something bad and then punishing the puppet, and not the puppeteer.

>>22235721
>The author of a novel creates characters to suffer & die for the sake of the novel; the novel is not written to be a comfortable place for the characters to safely dwell happy within.
If you put on a play where you purposely tortured the actors for real, you would and should be morally condemned as a sick freak.

>>22235722
The author never wanted the characters to suffer, but the character had to suffer in order for the story to move forward. Think of God as the author of this novel (the world) filled with characters (us); we suffer & die... but those of us whom He saw fit to find salvation through Jesus Christ are written into the *next* novel (Heaven).

Or something like that. Look, you just have shake the whole bullshit Barney the Dinosaur attitude on everything, okay? It's jewish bullshit designed to trick you into expecting everyone & everything in this world to play fair with you (it won't). The world is evil. The world belongs to the devil. This is like some sort of fucked up testing ground for souls. If you pass or fail, it doesn't really matter to me. Heck, if *I* pass or fail, it doesn't really matter to me, either; I'm just calling it like I see it.

This is food for thoughts.

>>22235725
>morality breakdown
You're mistaking WHOM this is all for; it's not necessarily for US in the way that you imagine.

>>22235729
>torture the actors
But we're not torturing the actors. God's not torturing the actors -- the SOULS -- just the toys/vehicles/puppets/bodies/minds which we temporarily play the roles of here in this clownworld.

Believe me, the suffering our bodies/minds/persons endure is nothing compared to what our souls would suffer in damnation were we not saved by Jesus Christ.

After death, you'll realize that all of your bellyaching & fistshaking were laughably childish.

>>22235748
>You're mistaking WHOM this is all for; it's not necessarily for US in the way that you imagine.
>You should just accept being tortured because it's God's will
This is the ultimate endpoint of theistic thinking. The ultimate abdication of moral thinking. The ultimate surrender of the slave to the will of the master. It is a severe sickness, thank you for demonstrating this.

>>22235748
>but the character had to suffer in order for the story to move forward
You undermine the power of God by saying "the story" couldn't be moved forward without suffering. Is it beyond the power of God to advance "the story" without suffering? It's an incoherent justification for a proliferation of unnecessary suffering.

>>22235591
> fuck humans.
4chan ““christians”” really are beyond saving.

>>22234888
>We can only hope that the baptized are saved by grace as well. Or is the supposition that men can magically cleanse sins with created water like some sort of sorcerer?
Fair enough, we're all saved by grace alone. The point is that there is a promise that baptism saves.

>The "genetic/seed," based original sin is Augustine's invention, maybe with some help from non-cannonical sourced
And definitely canonical sources, like St. Paul.

Enoch and Elijah (and maybe Moses) are extraordinary cases, but I don't think they were free from original sin.

>it should hold that Mary too should have this sin.
And she probably did. Christ was born, not created.

>>22235763
>abdicative slave morality
No; pragmatism. The world exists. It did not simply come into being out of nothing on it's own accord. The world, and everything else, both within & without, were made by God. What power hath anyone created by God over God Himself? None! Is it honorable to categorically deny & frustrate an oppressor at every turn? Arguably... but, in this case, it is foolish. Even if you could win, it would be poor form to wage war against God, and, besides, you would be far less well equipped than He to deal with all that's involved in the operation of the universe.

>just accept being tortured
No, that's where you show your kike colors; there's an alternative to being tortured eternally: accept salvation in Jesus Christ, our Lord.

>he thinks that the universe must've come into existence either in order to provide a comfortable home for short-lived monkeys, or as an accident which happened to result in us having this conversation now
There are other possibilities.

>slave mentality
More like child-to-parent mentality than master-to-slave mentality.

>thank you for demonstrating
You're welcome; thank you for your continued contributions to this lively debate.

ALSO... depending on your, uh, interpretations, Hell is supposed to be emptied some time around the Rapture, meaning *everyone* who was damned to Hell gets released, and goes to Heaven for infinite eternities, or something like that... so, ultimately, there is absolute clemency for all.

>>22235774
>undermine power of god
No; God *chose* to advance the story this way through suffering. Why? God only knows!

>>22235810
>4chan ""christians""
>beyond saving
Actually, I'm quite confident that we *are* saved; the non-denominational purely online Church of 4chan is arguably the closest thing we've got to the True Christianity of old.

Why do people talk so much about whether or not God is evil, when we should be talking about how there are certainly evil people ruining the world right now, and should be stopped? Is it possible that these conversations serve to distract us from the more immediate (and arguably important) task of putting an end to wicked monsters?

>>22235896
>the non-denominational purely online Church of 4chan is arguably the closest thing we've got to the True Christianity of old.
>anons are the real jews!
jesus wept
>Why do people talk so much about whether or not God is evil
because he is
>when we should be talking about how there are certainly evil people ruining the world right now, and should be stopped?
I made the career choices that I did so that I could fight evil people, even in as limited a capacity as that may be. What do you do besides suck off a jewish demon on the internet?

>>22236179
>wdyd?
I kill jews in the name of Jesus Christ.

Remind us: are you for or against abortion? Make a simple, binary declaration; if you say something like "in certain circumstances," then you are in favor of abortion.

Furthermore, this is hardly fellating a "jewish demon;" the fact of the matter is that these "jews" rejected the selfsame God who brought them out of Egypt, et al, again & again & again, going even so far as to have Him murdered when he walked the world as Jesus Christ, after He called them out for their bullshit. "Demon" or not, the very same evil people who are responsible for all of our present troubles certainly follow Him... but, rather, another "demon" entirely.

Y'know what? This thread's become more /pol/ than /lit/; let's get back to the original thrust:

>plz recommend theologians, philosophers, authors, and especially *books* which *don't* insist that babies who die unbaptized go to hell

>>22230788
>it goes to now to hide its declining membership.
"2 more weeks bros and Mormonism's a goner" - someone in New York, 1830

>>22229975
Babies are born innocent. You're a sinner and under God's wrath because you chose to sin. Sin is transgression of God's law. Being born isn't a sin. Stop listening to the catholic cult.

>>22236274
Mormons spent over 70 million dollars to buy land from the state because they hate free speech and couldn't stand being rebuked by real Christians. They're also never fully honest with their beliefs when trying to convert people because their beliefs are all retarded.

>>22230376
Explain different denominations

>>22236306
Meds

>>22235305
I've read enough to know he doesn't offer anything I'm interested in. But hey by his own teachings it doesn't matter anyway.

>>22236324
I accept your concession.

>>22236274
I'm surprised that faith didn't take a massive hit when genetic tests proved the lost tribe was African the whole time. Ethiopian Jews are the last tribe of Jews thus exposing the Mormons as larpers and Smith as a fraud.

>>22236263
>I kill jews in the name of Jesus Christ.
your schizophrenic fantasies don't count

>>22236333
No one knows what your even referring to with your comment. At least post an article of whatever you're talking about.
>>22236340
Israelis don't accept Ethiopians as actually genetic Jews though I thought.

>>22236389
It really doesn't matter what they accept if testing has proven what the truth is. Fact is their lost tribe was found and over the centuries they became black in the same way a bunch of Jews went from brown to white. If they don't accept them their God will make them suffer. I'd get over their bias if I were them Yawah doesn't fuck around.

After deep research, I have determined that, to be "born in sin," one must first be born; therefore: it is reasonable to assume that babies who die or are aborted before birth are *not* "born in sin," and, therefore, possibly exempt from damnation. I'm not exactly sure if they're "saved" or not, but, assuming a loving God, it's likely that they are.

That said, I just got a trolltastic idea...

>bring bible and holy water to abortion clinic
>hang around outside
>meet women
>don't judge
>offer to baptize their unborn babies
>so they don't go to hell after getting aborted
>no big deal
>just going to say some prayers first
>then use this turkey baster
>to squirt holy water up inside your womb
>to baptize your soon-to-be-murdered child
>in the womb
>collect tears
>possibly even prevent several abortions
>videorecord the entire thing
>upload to youtube
>go viral
>get followers and copycats
>found a new church
>new church's main mission:
>prenatal/preabortion in-eutero baptism
How do you like me now?

>>22236347
>he's trying to bait me into revealing the names of my victims and the locations of their murders because he's a federal glownigger

Nice try, but I'll keep my secrets, thank you very much. Oh, by the way... how's Pam?

>>22236519
>>bring bible and holy water to abortion clinic
>>hang around outside
>get trespassed and possibly handed an order of protection if you keep showing up
FTFY

>>22235896
>The world exists. It did not simply come into being out of nothing on it's own accord.
Yet you allow that God exists and does exist of His own accord? Why are you not content to admit the universe exists without a creator, yet you are okay with the idea that a creator exists without the need for a creator? Again, no consistency.
>accept salvation
Those under this delusion still suffer, the only difference is you are under the illusion it is justified when, as we have already established, it can't be justified if it's all going according to how God planned it; it comes back to cruelty for the sake of cruelty.
>Child to parent
You wish to infantilize yourself. It amounts to the same thing, but thank you for admitting this. You never want to throw off the mantle of a child and become a responsible man no longer under the thumb of a tyrannical Father who bestows punishment on you when the problem was of his own design. Again, logically incoherent.
>God chooses to torture you. And only he knows why!
If you can accept this, you are literally a braindead cult follower. There is no help for you, if you can accept this, you can accept anything at all. Might as well go full Scientology, at least that one is creative in it's delusional beliefs.

>>22236565
Possibly, if care is not taken, but it would be worth the risk, at the very least for the lulz.

>>22236638
>existance sans creation
God is unlimited, but the universe He created is limited (although spatially and possibly temporally infinite in dimension, its set of dimensions and other attributes is limited, unlike God); therefore, the eternal God created the universe, but Himself did not require a creator... although now we're getting into the whole HOLYSPIRIT -> FATHER -> SON thing, where it can be assumed that the transcendentally infinite Holy Spirit gives rise to the Father, who creates this universe and the people within it, and then creates the Son to provide salvation for us... and all three members of the Trinity are one. Consider the Trinity a way to almost grasp the transcendentally infinite Godhead.
It is not nonsense to assume that the very describable universe was created by God, and also assume that the indescribable God requires no source beyond Himself.

>suffer despite accepting salvation
Salvation can serve as a salve to the soul in search of succor, the "why me" kind of whiners who find solace in knowing that everything goes according to God's plan, and that they are saved. I don't need that kind of a wubbie, but it is a comfort to many.
Besides, salvation was never about escaping salvation in this life; far from it: to be "saved" is to be a target of extra suffering by the ruler of this particular little world -- Satan -- who tempts & tests (either for his own sadistic purposes, or because his job is to test the worthiness of God's people). Yes: salvation can actually increase the suffering you experience in this life.

>infantilization fantasy
I am responsible. I've been a man longer than you've been alive. I am not punished by some Father figure, but I own my mistakes and my pain. Tell me: did you have a good relation with your (step) father? Often this whole "rebel" angle comes from an unhappy upbringing.

>cult follower
Again, you mistake what I'm about. Listen: you & I don't *know* anything, really... but I have *faith* in the ineffable, unknowable Truth of the Word of God. This entire conversation has been an educational thought experiment -- perhaps you're playing your role, too -- with aims including entertainment and outing Satanists. Tell me: what (if any) religion(s) do you feel embody a realer, truer, more accurate *essence* than what we're talking about here?
Scientology is not a real religion. THAT is a cult. If I were to "join a cult," I'd much rather just start my own. It's not that difficult. One must merely possess charisma & wit. I've managed to keep you and others engaged in this discussion thusfar. You may not be turned, but I have your attention, and the attention of many readers. If it weren't already bedtime, I'd go on....

>>22235257
Then why didn't God tell us to exterminate ourselves? Why does Christ peach helping people live?

All this seems to show is that the theology of salvation has become deeply twisted.

Sin is a separation we journey to be healed from. It is not binary; Origen had the right of it in that at least, but a continual struggle, a road of stages like the 40 places the Israelites pass through in Numbers. It's is a journey out of slavery; Romans 7 is obviously not talking about a physical death in sin but rather a personal one, a loss of autonomy, that is restored in Christ, the Logos. We are on a journey towards a fuller love, Grace, and a fuller knowledge, Gnosis, that ends in a fuller being, the "Life Eternal," of God.

Father = object/ground
Son = symbol
Spirit = interpretable

Augustine basically sums up Pierce's firstness, secondness, and thirdness in the triad of: the Father who loves, the son who is the beloved, and the Spirit who is the love between them Itself, the hypostatic abstraction, as Pierce understood thirdness.

We are made in the image of God, the essential tripartite self-relations of the Trinity and of semiosis, the generation of meaning itself. Augustine's great achievement is his semiotics and how that ties to the economics of salvation. His great mistake is legalism re: salvation and believing in magic that violated Logos. "The actual is the rational and the rational is the actual," Hegel gets the Logos better than Augustine, but overemphasizes the role of Absolute Knowing (Gnosis), the role of Logos/symbol, in salvation while ignoring the role of the interpretant, the Spirit.

Augustine was right to reject simplistic pro-Roman conceptions of historical progress (e.g. Eusebius, who brought along the Cappadocians, Jerome, etc.). But Augustine was wrong to think God isn't working through history or to denigrate the importance of this world (the influence of Plotinus run wild). Most of the Bible is history, God at work through individuals, families, people's, states. God's relationship with man matures in the Bible. Christ didn't come to bring a rule book, but an example of praxis. Theosis is the ultimate goal of this world and it is a process occuring across history as much as across lifetimes. The goal is a transformation of self, not some sort of binary legalistic device to avoid wrath, a wrath that somehow falls in innocent children and displays nothing of love. It is telling they theology has had to come up with so many very different stories for why God "has" to punish in this way: none are obvious in the Bible.

>>22235725
Exactly. But this is not the story of all Christianity but rather a certain fear based take one it.

You're supposed to "wrestle with God." Looking for a simple answer that leaves you unchanged is the wrong way to go about it.