/lit/ - Literature

>>22100015
It's literally the second best literary work after the Iliad so you're getting filtered hard.

>>22100019
>provides literally no defense

>>22100015
>Just Odysseus’s pussy son being passive,
From the beginning Telemachus is still a child and needs to become a man. What he achieves in terms of visiting Sparta and Pylos will allow him to increase his kleos (something like honor/glory). Also, what started as being what you call "being passive" is developing into two characteristics most associated with his father: the ability to endure trials/pains, and "cunning", which the greek word itself carries the connotation of letting things play out, instead of letting emotions control you taking a short term victory (but possibly losing in the end) waiting and watching until the time is right to "be active"

>a bunch of boomer-tier rants about freeloaders,
all of this is to show you how utterly depraved these suitors are (or how they would have been to the Greeks) for completely disregarding the concept of xenia: the guest/host relationship. If you read the iliad you know how important that is. Remember when Glaucus and Dimoedes stop in the middle of fighting and exchange armor and stuff? That's from xenia--Diomedes' grandfather was a friend of Glaucus' grandfather. That's how important xenia was to the ancient greeks.

>and Athena puppeteering a crying Odysseus around islands populated by NPCs.
I'm not sure what criticism is meant by NPC so I can't comment on that. But in terms of Athena helping, that shows you how great Odysseus is. In ancient greek culture the greater you are, the more help from the gods you received.

>Oh, and a lengthy reappearance of the worst character from the Iliad: Ol’ “Back in My Day” Nestor.
This situates Telemachus within the same sphere as his father. When Nestor, one who has returned from Troy, and was a companion of Odysseus, receives Telemachus as son of Odysseus then that increases Telemachus' kleos. Also, you can compare the way Nestor receives Telemachus, by following the proper ways of xenia, with those of the suitors. Also, everything I just said goes for when Menelaus receives Telemachus as well. At some point Odysseus will ask Athena about his son and learn from her Telemachus is also journeying. This causes him to worry if she is doing the same thing to his son as himself, but she tells him not to worry: he is earning himself a great reputation.

>>22100301
Thanks based anon, you have shown me the way

>>22100019
Nobody thinks that. In fact many scholars doubt they were composed by the same author.

>>22100537
How are those two things related?

I hate Nestors dusty old ass too anon.

>>22100015
Filtered

Maybe literature isn’t your thing

Where was the whole trojan horse and death of Achilles?

>>22100770
So it’s impossible for someone to genuinely appreciate literature outside the Odyssey?

>>22100773
Menalaus discusses the Trojan Horse

>>22100621
People expect the Odyssey to be in the same league as the Iliad, because they're told it's by the same author. It isn't, probably because it isn't.

what is it with redditors like >>22101335 and their obsession with ranking things? i think part of it has to do with their obsession with marvel movies and always wanting them to be number one at the box office therefore validating what they like (or that's their logic), but that's just my going theory. if anyone else knows any better i'd love to hear it.

>>22101335
Why is it that the consensus in this thread is that Iliad is better? Isn’t Odyssey popularly believed to be the better?

>>22100537
>many scholars doubt
Go back braindead redditor

>>22101616
Literally how new are you faggot? Lurk more or fuck off

>>22101662
> Literally how new are you faggot? Lurk more or fuck off

>>22101616
throughout almost all of history the Iliad was (rightly) viewed as the superior poem. When people wrote about Homer, 90% of the time it was the Iliad.

With the rise in popularity of the novel in the 19th century, the Odyssey gained more recognition as it is closer in form to the novel and more of a classic adventure. So today the Odyssey is more widely read especially by lay readers.

>>22101824
Using memes doesn't mean you fit in newfag

>>22101908
>When people wrote about Homer, 90% of the time it was the Iliad.
That's really interesting. What was their cut off point for historical writing? And how did they weight it? Per line? Per document?

Actually, could you just link me the study so I can check their methodology for myself.

>>22101945
Kill yourself

>>22101955
Sorry, I'm not sure what's the anger about. You stated a quantitative value as a fact. I'd like to see it for myself. If you can't, that's fine, I'll just move on.

>>22101656
You haven't read them, have you?
Even Chapman's poetic talent couldn't redeem the Odyssey. And Lawrence deprecates it in the preface to his own translation. He is one of the scholars I mentioned.

>Sorry, I'm not sure what's the anger about. You stated a quantitative value as a fact. I'd like to see it for myself. If you can't, that's fine, I'll just move on.

>>22101965
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22101964
>Chapman
>Lawrence
Kill yourself along with the tranny from above

>>22101973
nice one, mr. redditor

>>22101964
maybe for tasteless, backwater country hicks such as yourself lawrence is considered a "scholar" of classics (he read history--his thesis was related to the crusades, produced nothing of value in terms of classical research, and became an archaeologist), but in real classics departments he's not even worth a mention.

But it's fine by me, honestly, I love when the masses can even get just a drop of Homer, so please, by all means continue with whatever your community college is doing.

>>22102015
>real classics departments

>>22101932
> Using memes doesn't mean you fit in newfag

>>22100301
>the ability to endure trials/pains, and "cunning", which the greek word itself carries the connotation of letting things play out, instead of letting emotions control you taking a short term victory (but possibly losing in the end) waiting and watching until the time is right to "be active"
kek what a backhanded way to call someone a loser

>>22102617
gen z would call this “simping”

saving a blessed thread from death

>>22100019
The GOAT is the Comedy. Homer is not even epic. Name (1) truly epic moment in the Iliad

>>22104782
there's nothing blessed here. just anons accusing each other of not understanding and hurling insults at each other.

>>22102617
I am kind of glad that vulgar and cynical people like you exist. The fact that you can't even recognise power unless it's constantly making a vulgar, ostentatious display of itself, like some kind of MMA wrestler desperately trying to impress an audience, makes things easier for people who actually want to get shit done.

>>22104793
Diomedes being a war god posessed by Athena in book V is pretty epic ngl

>>22105598
how does it make things easier for people who actually want to get shit done? the people making a vulgar display will sooner or later convince everyone that they are the ones in control and given how much public opinion etc matters they will end up being in control so why are you glad
so to recognize a quieter sort of cunning isn't it first important to quite down the louder more vulgar clever person unless he drowns everything in his noise

>>22104795
so ... /lit/?

>>22104793
>Name (1) truly epic moment in the Iliad

Patroclus soloing the entire trojan army using Achilles armor since he was bitching and crying around in a tent for a women

>>22106406
Power isn't acquired through a popularity contest you fucking zoomer.

>>22100015
How could you not enjoy it?
>>22100019
Honestly, I believe it's better. Though I enjoyed the narrative of the Iliad, the world building of the odyssey is unbeatable

>>22100019
received reddit opinion

>>22100301
Fantastic reply.

>>22100019
go back to plebbit

It sounds like you are upset ancient greek heros don't live up to your ideas of masculinity.

>Ol’ “Back in My Day” Nestor.
That's the joke.

>>22107777
>Sure, Nestor is annoying as hell, but, no, you don't understand, the ancient Greeks thought Nestor was a joke too
The absolute cope