/lit/ - Literature

my thoughts are that you need to read more

>>22054639
So, you didn't read those. Okay. Next!

>>22054633
It's hilarious how like 90% of the fanbase of these books don't realize it's a criticism of toxic masculinity.

>>22054633
they're literally me

>>22054633
I read both.
American Psycho is well, psychotic description of what happened in the story and main character's honest thoughts about almost everything.

Fight Club is more human and philosophical, a little crass, yes, because it's Chuck Palahniuk's.

>>22054633
they were both written by homosexual men
that's all you need to know

>>22054669
Are you a feminist? Askin for a friend

>>22054633
I loved when Patrick Bateman sees Bono as a jesus figure telling him to kill people. It was probably one of the funniest things I’ve ever read. Both are filled with huge amounts of padding. I guess it makes sense within the context of the story, but it seems lazy too.

>>22054669
Kys cuck

>>22054669
But I DO realize they are jabs at toxic masculinity. Doesn't make me stop empathizing with the characters.

>>22054688
That roastie probably is. One is about 1980s excess and the need to fit in, the other is about the pain of being a mindless consumer with no purpose.

>>22054696
>the boys
>nightcrawler

God women are dumb.

>>22054696
this, I want see the world burn. I crave for destruction. ik it sounds edgy and stupid but it is what it is

>>22054693
>... Bono has now moved across the stage, following me to my seat, and he’s staring into my eyes, kneeling at the edge of the stage, wearing black jeans (maybe Gitano), sandals, a leather vest with no shirt beneath it. His body is white, covered with sweat, and it’s not worked out enough, there’s no muscle tone and what definition there might be is covered beneath a paltry amount of chest hair. He has a cowboy hat on and his hair is pulled back into a ponytail and he’s moaning some dirge—I catch the lyric “A hero is an insect in this world” — and he has a faint, barely noticeable but nonetheless intense smirk on his face and it grows, spreading across it confidently, and while his eyes blaze, the backdrop of the stage turns red and suddenly I get this tremendous surge of feeling, this rush of knowledge and my own heart beats faster because of this and it’s not impossible to believe that an invisible cord attached to Bono has now encircled me and now the audience disappears and the music slows down, gets softer, and it’s just Bono onstage … I hear it, can actually feel, can even make out the letters of the message hovering above Bono’s head in orange letters: “I… am… the devil… and I am… just like you…” And then everyone, the audience, the band, reappears and the music slowly swells up and Bono, sensing that I’ve received the message ...

>>22054669
Then I'm the 10%. But Patrick's character is great for the story. It sucks IRL.

>>22054688
What if I am?

>>22054770
Well... It depends. What is Feminism to you?

>>22054773
>What is Feminism to you?
Equality among genders and dismantling the patriarchal system.

>>22054790
What do you mean by 'equality among genders' exactly?

>>22054803
Equal access to opportunities and rights.

>>22054810
>rights
What about pregnancy?

>>22054758
I am now going to reread this. It’s been at least a decade. The only thing that bugged me was the padding. It’s akin to GRRM writing almost full pages about feasts and house crests.

>>22054814
My body, my choice.

>>22054835
I was thinking about the right to not work and still get the money while pregnant.

>>22054818
Read something that will make you grow as a human being instead.

>>22054838
If society doesn't want to pay for it then we just won't have babies then and you will have to bring more immigrants. Work for me either way. Also in plenty of countries they have paternity leave.

>>22054842
I’ve been reading White Noise, but my thriftbooks list is long. Confederacy of Dunces is at the top for the next read. I usually just jump around.

>>22054842
Recommendations?

>>22054848
hows white noise? I've got it on my shelf but I've got other things to read before it. Is it worth bumping up the queue?

>>22054633
I loved both movies but haven't gotten around to reading ether book.

>>22054652
I read both the books and saw both the movies twenty years ago. Doesn't change the fact you need to read more

>>22054696
Well, that's because aesthetics > morality.

>>22054633
I read both of them, probably in the same period (about 15 years ago, I'd say)
I didn't read other works from Ellis, I've read some other from Palahniuk, some were nice, some not so much.
The style is different but both satisfy the same need, in a sense

>>22054669
Obviously it is.

American Psycho is mostly a catalogue of brand names and consumer products - really turns you into a sociopath while reading - and then there is misogynist banter and some truly gruesome murders.

I don't know. The novel is very flat, which makes it so disturbing. I prefer Less Than Zero still, which is overall a better novel, I think.

Ellis is one of the most overrated authors, which is usually the case with pop authors. However, American Psycho reflected a virulent and certainly toxic mindset in the culture at the time when it came out and it certainly speaks very much to our present day. I wouldn't reread it though.

>>22055973
I need to clarify though that it reflects very much the mindset of a specific type of male person. Not saying that everyone working on Wall Street is like that but there are certain tendencies, which are magnified and highlighted in the character of Patrick Bateman. Yes it is about white upper middle class men, wealthy men, working in finance, and their misogyny and psychopathic mindset.
It would not have required such a lengthy novel to bring that point across but it is an important book even though it is not a good novel and even though Ellis is not a really good writer but he is very perceptive.

>>22055997
What makes the novel so disturbing and what makes people empathize with Bateman is that the satirical tone is not really explicit. There is no narratorial voice that would deliver any kind of critique of Bateman. It is the flatness of tone - as flat as the superficiality of Bateman's brand-obsesvsedness -; it is the overall deathlessness that is unsettling but revealing at the same time.

>>22056013
Auto-correction: It should have depthlessness.

And I wanted to write "identify" instead of empathize.

>>22054669
>toxic masculinity.

newspeak

>>22056029
I took a "toxic masculinity test" and I got this
kinda funny desu

>>22056029
You're completely stupid.

Toxic masculinity is real and men are often shit.

Patrick Bateman is not only a misogynist but a murderer.

That some bros consider him to be an aesthetic role model and want to emulate him really shows how depraved our current age is and pretty much highlights the disturbing symptoms the novel's portraying. It is a very symptomatic novel.

One could even argue that it isn't even a satire in a traditional sense because of the overall depthlessness, the flatness, the complete lack of psychology etc., the lack of any narratorial voice voicing critique. One enters a completely amoral and superficial world, and accepts the absence of moral valuation while reading the novel. This experience is crucial to the novel and probably the best way to represent what the novel tries to represent. In that sense, the novel is in fact highly accomplished - I should revise my judgement of Ellis maybe a little bit - because it shows and Mailer is right in his enthusiasm.

>>22056066
>Toxic masculinity is real and men are often shit.

so does women, the fact that they hold more social power than men and often abused that power with no consequences

how about we called it toxic people?, oh wait, that doesn't work because it doesnt suit the establishment, with their pretentiousness thinking that they´re the underdogs for some reason

>>22056059
KNEEL.

>>22056081
In what way do women hold more social power?

Look at people in positions of power and you have still more men than women throughout the world. There has never been a female President of the United States for instance and Trump - who is Patrick Bateman's role model - was the former president.

>>22056102
>In what way do women hold more social power?

they hold power in social interactions, and that's not a small thing

Look at people in positions of power and you have still more men than women throughout the world

because men are naturally more competitive than women, most women are submissive creatures, now you can blame that to evolutionary psychology and not some vague evil villain

>>22056090
?
Kneel to what?

>>22056114
You're damn right about the social interactions.

>>22054633
American psycho is the better book of course. More detail and stuff happening and deeper characters. Also it's a shame Fight Club is Palahniuk's most famous novel because it's really far from his best.

>>22056247
What's his best?

>>22054704
Don't worry, the feeling will eventually dissipate after you turn 16

>>22054688
>>22054695
>>22056029
>immediate cope recoil
kek

>>22056512
yeah shill, just trust the government! nothing will go wrong!

Read fight club, it's 1:1 with the movie except for the ending.

>>22054669
It's not really a critic on toxic masculinity. Listen to the author's (Chuck) interview on Rogan. It's a critic on consumerism and the loss of male communities. I.e. bowling alone (go read that). Chuck says something about the loss of 'rough play' in male culture, and rogan agrees that that's why sports like MMA were not only influenced by fight club but succeeded because it spotlight a part of society that was discarded.


I'm playing devil's advocate here. I think chuck, rogan, and Jordan Peterson (who they referenced several times) are all sort of in the same camp. Which is the 'gen x' masculine revivalists. American culture was rather male dominated and oriented through to the early 2010s, albeit with a noticeable transfer from male communities to male individual consumers. However, in the 2010s American culture began to reject male oriented culture which was when terms like toxic masculinity appeared.

So a zoomer like you and others on here might think fight club is ironic, and trying to poke at toxic masc., it really wasn't.

>>22056551
You honestly think that retard gives a shit? He just wants those (You)'s so he can get high on his dopamine fix. He's no better than a heroin addict.

>>22054633
Fight club is okay, nothing amazing. I think the movie is better
American Psycho is genuinely psychotic, the movie has a much more conventional structure which makes it lose the all over the place kind of feel the book has
>J&B I am thinking. Glass of J&B in my right hand I am thinking. Hand I am thinking. Charivari. Shirt from Charivari. Fusilli I am thinking. Jami Gertz I am thinking. I would like to fuck Jami Gertz I am thinking. Porsche 911. A sharpei I am thinking. I would like to own a sharpei. I am twenty-six years old I am thinking. I will be twenty-seven next year. A Valium. I would like a Valium. No, two Valium I am thinking. Cellular phone I am thinking.

>>22056504
just like female "bisexuality" suddenly drops off after 24

>>22054835
that applies to the baby too tho. your choice does not supersede hers

>>22056090

reaction formation

>>22056090
holy based

>>22054669
Maybe im a smooth brwin, but i thought they were commentary on boredom in modern society where we have too much information and and easy living, but no real outlet.

>>22054669
It is not a criticism, it is an illustration of their experience of life and what they desire.

It is important to realise that men who are called "toxic" have been neglected and shamed by society on being a man, which causes them to retreat into narcissistic and cultlike fantasies. The solution is not to further shame them by calling them toxic, but understanding their predicament and suffering, which is what these books do.

>>22056114
What ways do they hold power in social interactions? The power to allure men into asking them on dates ? The power to say things and not be taken seriously ?

>>22057758
>What ways do they hold power in social interactions?

in every sense of the word

>women tend to have more friends than men
>women can get away accusing of someone with defamation
>they can invert every social interaction as (sexual) harrasment against them
>women tend to receive more empathy than men
>women basically control the finance of whom they marry (if they have kids)
>women can be part of multiple social groups
>women tell everything to each other

etc....

>>22057758
>woman says "i'm sad :("
>literal flood of attention "omg bby u ok?"
>man says "i'm sad"
>eww lol ick, get away you creep, red flag much?

>>22054669
Toxic masculinity is just an effort of feminisation. When men act like women it's bad because women are lesser than men and should not be imitated. But because women are deluded into thinking they aren't lesser (or are coping with the fact) they want men to act more like them even though they rwady know will not like those men for it.
Why? Envy of masculinity and female brain. Men acting like men should is not toxic, in fact it's the opposite.
What is toxic masculinity? Not liking homsexuality? Not liking weakness? 'Toxic masculinity' is simply being averse to feminism which all men should be. You shouldn't fight or play like a girl. Girls suck at fighting and sports compared to men. You should be acting like a man, men built all the good things in this world after all. Men fought the wars, plowed the fields, built the homes.

>>22058225
And 'talking about problems' like a woman (men are just letting them catharise) only reinforces the toxic feminity of that thinking and behaviour. Men are meant to be able to take it. And if you do need to talk stuff out, never let it be with a woman. You keep your baser nature of whining away from women and only show them good things from you while putting priority on your judgenent in the relationship. Be stoic unless you are loving.

>>22056147
His dick and balls, obviously.

>>22056059

>>22057766
The only one of those examples
That have any leverage to proving your point are
> women receive more empthathy
Men and women hold different powers and abilities in social interactions is what makes the most sense

>>22058624
we have physical force in our side
they have social power on their side

which is best suited in a contemporary society? exactly....my point

>>22058685
Yeah but all your green text earlier wasnt very sound. I see men obtaining all but the empathy that women can obtain and even that only holds some truth
You said only women can have multiple friend circles... really bro?
Im aggreeing that women can have some social power but still hoping you can go into detail with good reasoning

And OP i did read both and Pat bateman and Tyler Durden are both kind of crazy/insane but they are very interesting, driven, smart and hilarious men that inspire me to become a become more driven and interesting myself

>>22058827
>You said only women can have multiple friend circles... really bro?

it´s easier for women to have multiple people on their side because they know the social game far better than us men, of course men can have that too but it´s not the same thing because we tend to discuss things and not people (unless you´re some feminized eunuch)

>>22054790

>Equality among genders
Nice fucking politician spach. Its fem, an "equally" from "fem" perspective. I'm pretty sure if you want to peddle for aLl eQuaLiTy, there is an appropriate lable. So wtf are you trying to play here bitch.

> dismantling the patriarchal system.
Yeye faggot, to install your own, we know that, you can fuck right off. Besides, again, from the "fem" perspective if feminism is concerned, so it can change, and then some since ""I fEel vIoLeTed"".

It doesn't fucking matter what YOU consider those definitions to be, it takes literally a fluke from you being "uhuh I'm for all rights uhuh" to "burn those niggers on other side", since you already subscribed to latter idea which is the essence of any -ism , however you want to delude your self out of it.

>>22054669
Fight Club is a criticism on male identities on XX century, both the emasculated, isolated archetype, but also the super cranked up masculine type that comes up as a response to that

>>22054633
Good airport read