/lit/ - Literature

>>21721439
The books are all very beautiful if you understand what Tolkien was doing and why, but that's not necessarily what you'll get from them. His prose is of better quality than Harry Potter and the like, but if you're looking for beautiful prose, or psychological depth, or a number of other things, you should read something else. The Lord of the Rings is, I believe, genuine literature, but very, very different from practically everything else, especially what has been produced by the legions of people trying to copy him. He's primarily enjoyed through the intuition. For example, Tolkien became interesting in respelling orcs with a 'c' into orks with the 'k'. If this sounds like it could potentially make a difference in concerning the books in some way, I would definitely suggest reading LotR.

>>21721830
LOTR fan here. I read the first two and struggling to get through the third. What do you think might make me appreciate the third a bit more? Maybe something you like or something that I can look for thematically? I like your description is why I ask

>>21721439
>prose epic for Western/Celtic europe prehistory undertaken as an outgrowth of playing with languages he constructed
Yes. Picrel inspired both him and CS Lewis to undertake novel writing. It has the kind of grounding in real world history and cultures to 'feel real'.

>>21722055
I don't know anything to help you. Pic related would get you up to speed on things but I wouldn't seriously ask you to start reading another book if you're struggling with the real thing already.

I read the Hobbit and the trilogy as a teenager and got nothing out of it. For some people, Lord of the Rings means the world to them. But I'm not sure what type of person. Is it the same kind of guy who loves Star Wars? Or Elder Scrolls?

Obviously real world mythology has its fans, but it feels quite different from LotR. Namely, real myths have a message. You have the classic Greek warnings against hubris, but also the portrayal in Achilles of the ideal warrior, and Odysseus who symbolizes extreme persistenceand wit (mirrored in his wife Penelope who rejects the suitors - feminine virtue of chastity). Beowulf is all about wergild, paying back blood for blood and obtaining immortality among your peers through immense acts of strength and courage.

From what I read nothing in LotR has any message or moral background. They're the fun, flashy parts of myths without the meaningful parts. I guess there's a vague notion of "Bravery and strength are good". But it's weak. IIRC the books tried to focus on this a little with Aragorn, turn him into a more classic type of hero, but it didn't pan out much. It's been ages since I read, but the series doesn't live up to the idea of myth as I know it

>>21722176
I just struggling with how bored I am. The Two Towers was great! I just dont think Tolkien knows what to do with the third.

the books are often comfy.

>>21722055
all of frodo and sam's struggle through mordor is beautiful and kind of seems like tokiens idea of travelling through no mans land from his experience in ww1. This is a large section of the third book and you should look forward to it.

>>21722348
I love Lord of the Rings and I don't care for star wars or anything like it. It liked it as a kid, sure, but I grew out of it. Of all of my childhood interests, Tolkien is the only one to endure. It reads like mythology to me. The way he portrays brotherhood and love between Frodo and Sam (among others) is beautiful. He has interesting things to say about revenge, duty, self-sacrifice. There is a magic to Tolkien that I haven't found anywhere else. I think it is unfair to say that his prose isn't good, too. It is wonderful in places. Sam has a monologue that is quite brilliant, and Theoden's death-charge is perfect. A couple of his poems are very good too.

It is easy to criticise him because 99% of fantasy is trash and as the other anon said you associate Lotr fandom with star wars and other such shit. It is too good for that stuff but perhaps not good enough for literary fiction. This makes it really hard to categorise. It could well be nostalgia that makes me love it, but I do think there is real quality there.

>>21722348
>From what I read nothing in LotR has any message or moral background.
It's deeply Christian. He was a Catholic.

The hero is a little hobbit forced to suffer through trials. He's weak and surrounded by powerful allies and enemies, but only he can do it because humility and kindness are his true strength. He spares the life of gollum in an act of kindness. At Mount Doom, he fails; he can't let go of the ring. Gollum accidentally destroys the ring, showing it was his earlier act of forgiveness that allowed his success. It was secretly arranged by Eru Iluvatar -- the grace of god saves where mortal power fails.

Although not preachy and didactic like Lewis's books, the story is fundamentally Christian.

>>21721439
Start with The Silmarilian

>>21721439
I’ve been listening the Robert Inglis narration and it’s been the most story bookish experience I’ve ever had. There are many songs that he sings in an old man next to the fire sort of way. Completely enchanting.

>>21722348
He wrote it in such a way that the readers fill the story with their own interpretations. He had a strong aversion to allegories because they essentially force the reader into a specific direction. After I learned that it helped me pinpoint why LOTR felt sort of ethereal like it didn’t have any bones. But it’s still draws me along and will be one of those books that sticks with me in a sort of dreamlike way forever. He writes it with the intent to get you into the scene as much as possible I think and is why he spends so much time on the scenery, as if the world is it’s own character

>>21721439
Can't say much about the LOTR(since I've yet to read those three books) but I do recommend the Silmarillion. It is certainly not for children, nor the faint of heart, and I believe you you may enjoy it.

>>21721830
>Tolkien became interesting in respelling orcs with a 'c' into orks with the 'k'.
wtf my copy says orcs with a c and the preface said they didn't correct anything like tolkien's unusual use of capital letters

>>21723179
Tolkien prefered spelling Orc with a 'k' in his later writtings; after the LotR was published.

>>21721439
You should read it just so to get out of your comfort zone and become less of a pretentious faggot

>>21722055
The fifth book, of the first half of the third, is by far the best part of everything Tolkien has ever written.
The best pleb-filter ever. If you think it is boring, or you think Frodo and Sam (or even Gollum) are homosexual you are a degen and you got filtered.

>>21723499
Frodo and Sam do not even appear in the fifth book. It's in the sixth book where they go through Mordor. The fifth book is the attack to Minas Tirith.

>>21723644
You sure? I thought it was the fifth.

>>21722055
>>21722480
Have you gotten to Pellenor Fields yet?

>>21723179
What use of capitals?

>>21721439
I don't love lotr but comparing it to Potter or Star Wars is like comparing Mozart to One Direction. It is absurd

>>21722810
To be fair to C.S. Lewis, nearly all mythical/religious stories are preachy and didactic. Most Christian lit too is preachy in this way, the first wave of English drama was all about moral plays with characters representing the virtues, etc. Usually people interpret this as: the writer lacks tact or subtlety, they're a bad writer since they have to be so blunt about the meaning. But I find it really significant that myths are so often morally explicit, black and white.

I had a friend who loved LotR as a kid -- but he idolized Aragorn, not Frodo. Aragorn is actually strong, he's like Achilles or Beowulf, he wins because he's the strongest. Frodo has all these time-tested Christian values of courage, justice, persistence, resisting temptation, and so on. Yet no one who reads LotR wants to emulate Frodo -- we feel instead that he somehow lucked into success. If it were not for some kind of supernatural entity backing him, he would just be crushed by Mordor's overwhelming force.

Here's my theory: Lord of the Rings proves that Christian literature is always so preachy because if you don't explain it, it doesn't feel Christian. There was no logical reason for Frodo to succeed, "humility and kindness" do not win fights. Maybe Tolkein set his universe up as a Christian one, but since he never explained it, no one got it. Millions of people have read LotR, how many of them did it convince to go to church? Or even to act more like Jesus? I think that is the crux here. Everyone wanted to be an Aragorn, a Gandalf, or Legolas. Who wanted to be Frodo?

>>21724192
That's a good point. As a kid, I fantasised about being strong enough to protect Frodo because I thought he was this special thing that would be certainly worth dying for. I never wanted to be him though, just die for him. I don't really know where that fits with what you said but I think it's interesting

>>21723673
Yep, http://lotrproject.com/statistics/books/chapters
The first chapter of the tfifth is "Minas Tirith", and the third chapter of the sixth book is "Mount doom"

>>21723886
he sometimes capitalizes things one wouldn't normally capitalize

>>21724858
Like what? I've just skimmed through both of my copies and the grammar is perfect.

>>21723708
I'm actually past that. On The Last Debate. Even the battle was boring. I don't think he knows how to write Aragorn as he basically walks off stage until the end of the battle (some leader). He doesn't even try to include Gimli and Legolas in the battle. The female empowerment shit with Eowyn is as disappointing as it was in the movie. I'm sure it gets interesting when it gets back to Sam, Frodo & Golem because those are the only characters he knows how to write. Oh and Denethor, he knows how to write his cowardliness really well.

>>21722810
>He was a Catholic
means nothing. that could mean he's religious or a completely amoral satanist.

>>21723499
>or you think Frodo and Sam (or even Gollum) are homosexual
wtf who even comes up with something like that

>>21725125
Theoden's speech and final charge is incredible. I can't believe that did nothing for you

>>21725125
> the female empowerment shit with Eowyn is as disappointing as it was in the movie
The dialogue is much better in the book than in the film. Eowyn is inspired by the Norse shield maidens. Having a woman kill Angmar fulfills Glorfindel's prophecy, and if you read the Appendices and the Silmarillion, you'll realize that it might be Illuvatar (God) working in mysterious ways.
>Oh and Denethor, he knows how to write his cowardliness really well.
Denethor isn't a coward in the book. He's a good man who was driven mad by using the Palantir.

>>21725166
What page?

>>21725268
no no no it was written WAY better in the movie! I'm not even trolling. I just read that part in the book and it's not concise at all. At least it was a bad ass single moment, written in one line, in the movie. The audience cheers. It's great. "Brevity is the soul of wit" - Shakespeare

>>21725158
Homosexuals

>>21725145
Always when someone brings up a good point some moron feels the need to chime in with their little irrelevant 'quips'

>>21725311
quips are pretty cool. They remind me of Aaron Sorkin or Rick and Morty

if I was going to read this would I just pick up a box set or would I start with the hobbit?

>>21725338
start with the Hobbit

Since I'm a patrician, I'm more of a fan of Tolkien's translations and works on mythology and philology. For some reason though, I cannot get into LOTR, which is weird because it seems like something I would like.

>>21725305
in movie it was kind of cringe

>>21725268
"But no living man am I. You look upon a woman. Eowyn I am. Eomund's daughter. You stand between me and my lord and my kin. Begone if you be not deathless! For living or dark undead, I will smite you, if you touch him."

Compare that to:

"I am no man"

The movie is way better. Concise. More impactful.

It's still a retarded female empowerment moment in both the movie and the books because if you remember in the book Tolkien still included those yearning-for-battle moments between Eowyn and Aragorn. Where she's talking about wanting to be more than an ordinary woman and fight with the men.... which is post war female empowerment bullshit. call a spade a spade.

>>21725268
You can say it was the Palantir or you could say it was alcoholism. Whatever the reason, Denethor was acting cowardly.

This is why I have an innate disgust for fantasy fans, because they can hide all their personal issues and faults behind endless silly names.

>>21725385
no it's the cringiest scene in all movies

>>21725415
I agree it's cringy. My point is that it's just as cringy in the book.

But if you had to compare the two, the movie is even better than the book's version.

>>21725415
Tolkien wrote a cringy female empowerment character with Eowyn and fans of Tolkien cant come to terms with that.

>>21725423
my problem with it is that it's the classical hollywood bullshit where the bad guy just stares and lets other to kill him, thanks god she at least didn't say all that she did in the book

>>21725442

Could a tranny kill him?

>>21725465
idk we'll see

>>21725465
Trannies (eunuchs) take down Chinese/Persian empires every once and a while so it's possible

>>21725471

>>21725471
i..is it going to be rewritten and mtf tranny will kill him to prove it's a real woman?

>>21725471
50thpbp

>>21725482
I mean we're only on our first season of Rings of Power

Ohhh I cannot wait for The Return of the Queen

>>21725465
>>21725471
>>21725482
>>21725490
it could very well happen in the near future

>>21725507
oy vey

>>21725482

>>21725507
if Jews want to do shit like this they should be given New York and sealed in with a wall of electronic jamming devices and their own intranet, let them wear eachother out with constant destructions and degradations of goy culture and their puerile sex obsession due to their repressed yenta mothers, but WITHOUT any gentiles being able to see it. They'll have a cultural breakdown within 5 years since they really aren't doing this degenerate shit for other Jews, but because they like to be seen and hated/admired by the goyim. When all they have is eachother, maybe they'll break down, have a good think, and become normal citizens.

I wish they had their own state they could go to instead of giving them New York but there is no legitimate state on earth that is primarily Jewish.

>>21725540
>blah blah blah muh jews
It's the economic system itself m8. Everything is for sale

>>21725540
This is unironically probably the idea behind Israel

>>21725549
>Blah blah blah read my Jacobin article about carceral transphobia did I mention I have a PhD in Anthropology
Blow it out your ass New Leftist, I'm trying to save the Jewish people here

>>21725554
It's what decent Jews like Scholem wanted, but it's also why schemer phenotypes like Strauss and secret chauvinists like the Frankfurters were ambivalent about it, because they knew it would naturalize Jewish blood to a soil and create a normal nomos, taking away their exceptional itinerant merchant-revolutionary essence

>>21725549
No not "blah blah blah" they are legitimately a pain in the ass. Especially since we are at war with China and Russia, they are a legitimate liability and everyone knows it.

>>21725540
That defeats the purpose since it's supposed to be weaponized.
>>21725549
It's both.

>>21725565
Can you say that in Layman's terms?

>>21725586
When the Jews finally got a state, a bunch of deep-souled Jews concerned with the essence and identity of the Jewish people were happy because now they could go live on a kibbutz slowly build a real state of their own and stop being a wandering people. They were a bit naive about how this would go over with the local Arabs but they also couldn't anticipate how crazy the second half of the twentieth century would go and assumed European colonialism would basically be the stable state of things for a long time, the "third world" being volatile by default and playing off two superpowers against each other was not yet really a thing. But still, the basic intent was to create a relatively normal Jewish state through gumption and more or less nationalism. There were even Jewish "fascists" like the Lehi, who by the way have one of the best anthems ever:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1u5Z0GZ1WsE
But Jews had been the nature and utility of Zionism since the mid to late 19th century, when it became a real issue, and especially since the early 20th when it became one of the main "things" a young Jewish man had to decide on - am I a Zionist or a liberal or a radical communist or some sort of neo-religious Jew or what? Because Jews are so cerebral and so many of them were effectively secular Enlightenment deists following Moses Mendelssohn or fully secular humanists following Hermann Cohen, there were few "just some Jewish guy"'s since every young guy was probably reading tons of contemporary philosophy and had to actively choose what "kind" of Jew he was going to be, which meant making a stance on what he thinks Jews are or should be as a whole. Some Jews chose neo-Orthodoxy or extreme conservatism, some saw the Jews as the first and best completers of the Enlightenment project because naturally atheistic and then saw themselves as the natural leaders of communism as the completion of the Enlightenment project, others were more moderate but still socialist and still saw themselves as sort of the "brain/heart" of Europe (ancient and universal Jewish chauvinism, now secularized - this is the standard American Jew one meets today), but others were Zionists to the point of being nationalistic and fascist, and some were indistinguishable from romantic fascists, like Oskar Goldberg.

>>21725650
Then there are hybrid forms like Strauss - Strauss' natural Jewish chauvinism made him love Zionism, he was an ardent Zionist since his teens when he had that "decision moment," and a follower of Heidegger, and most followers of Heidegger are nationalists because it's the logical conclusion of his philosophy (until after WW2 when it was slowly rebranded as French postmodernism with a German veneer). But intellectually Strauss rejected nationalism because he saw that it led to the persecution of "the minority of enlightened people in any society who will always be cosmopolitans, atheists, and liberal" - this is why Straussians like him but it is also just an obvious transposition of his Jewish chauvinism again, the same chauvinism that makes commies and aggressively secular-liberalizing Jews think that they are natural leaders and the brain/heart of Europe and humanity.

Scholem was a pretty consistent nationalist-religious Jew, he didn't want dogmatic rabbis dominating things but wanted a kind of baseline patriotic Jewishness with a homeland it can set down roots in, with a sincere faith provided by Jewish mysticism which is more spiritually rich than rationalistic Enlightenment philosophy/deism while being more open than a return to mere dogmatic Talmudism. But Scholem Jews are few and far between and are mostly drowned out by liberalizers, secularizers, communists, and Straussians who literally do think they are just "Europeans but better" or some kind of natural aristocratic caste of Europe or the human race. The latter are going to get all Jews killed eventually, because their natural chauvinism makes them feel both endlessly persecuted by their host societies and frankly whiny about it like a spoiled child, and entitled to tell those host societies how to live, because the inferior pleb goy should listen to the cultured wise deep and special Jew. But the Scholem Jews could have saved everyone if they had a chance to develop and just farm and read Torah for a few generations, if tons of secular rich American and European Ashkenazi and communist Russian Jews hadn't flooded Israel, or fled to America to work for the Israel lobby or secularize America so it can't defend itself against the Israel lobby (look up "the New York Intellectuals"), and if the deep state hadn't also decided around the '70s that Israel was an ideal aircraft carrier and in a region it wanted to control colonially and an ideal way to do extremely scandalous illegal shit without it being traced back to you because you can always say "those god damn crazy Israelis!" In exchange you send them constant money and let them brutalize the local Muslim peasants, which over a few more generations turns the secular demons who run Israeli even more schizo since all they live for is to suck money and kill Arabs and think about how good they are and how everybody else is scum

>>21725650
ugly russian music

>>21725657
Well then whats the deal with all the anti-white propaganda, and flooding European countries with 3rd world immigrants? How does that fit into your people's story?

>>21725657
Look my thing is: you don't have to read the endless words of Ayn Rand to realize that she's an insane fanatical cunt. Words can only hide your crimes for so long. And I'm not saying all Jews are criminals. I am with you. I want the best for the normal ones who just want to live life. The Scholem guys if you say. But people who break the law, murder innocent people and hide behind a bunch of words is very simply a bad thing.

>>21725657
Or trying to subvert European culture and telling children that breeding is bad, their skin is bad, etc. is evil. Plain and simple. All the lore and fan fiction in the world doesnt change this.

>>21721439
>>21721830
You're ready for the redpill about Tolkien? It's actualy a real story according to the words
https://www.vertigo22.com/2019/12/decemystery-2019-26-is-lord-of-rings.html

>>21725799
>You're ready for the redpill about Tolkien?
it's pretty common knowledge

>>21721439
Just fucking read it and find out. If you've read 100's of books, then reading 3-4 more isn't going to kill you.

once again simple conversation about books turns into a /pol/tard worthy stream of shit whining about women and (((them)))

>>21721439
They read less like a fantasy fairy tale and more like a research paper on old european historical epics.

>>21721439
There is something here. Tolkien created a world, complete with vivid imagery, history, myths, and even languages. Tolkiens book reflect that he was a linguist and poet, as well as story teller. For those interested in expanding their literary knowledge, it is a must read.

>>21721439
Good for you Anon.

>>21725507
>Star Wars-like franchise
I'm just....soooo fucking tired bros. Any future authors that write for sci-fi and fantasy need to be forewarned never to allow adaptations of your work for any given reason whatsoever.
Even tell your children not to sell out to Hollywood. America is a fucking demon from hell.

Besides, has anyone even seen the state of Star Wars? It's an absolute mess on every level, both the actual lore and the people who make those garbage movies.

Don't sweat them as a big investment of your time, but watch the movies so you know the story then just pick up a book and start reading any chapter you feel like. The Council of Elrond is a great chapter that gives plenty of background through charaters recalling their journeys, but just pick anything. It's like a painting. Note I'm not recommending this for just anybody but for someone who can't get into Tolkien or finds it daunting to slog through The Hobbit, 20 pages of prologue about Hobbit races and year reckoning and pipe smoking, and then another 70 pages of puttering around before anything happens. Skip all that shit and start on page 295 or wherever you feel like.

>>21727783
Star Wars works nicely if you ignore everything except the original trilogy, the first prequel, Solo, and Rogue One. Experienced as just these six movies, you have a compelling story about redemption wrapped in a good fantasy, balanced by three stories about how it all came together and the crucial events almost didn't happen. Note the prequel movie and Solo aren't great movies. The other four legitimately are. Don't let fandom spook you.

>>21727823
The show Andor is excellent.

>>21728105
Andor is just a juvenile Battlestar Galactica

>>21728565
Latino Battlestar Galactica*

>>21727807
How is the ADHD treating you?

>>21727807
legitimately good advice for well-adjusted normal people (who aren't deformed sinful nerds) who want to look into Tolkien but don't really give a shit. Tolkien is genuinely a waste of time. The characters are bad role models and this is part of the appeal to the nerds who read it. Because nerds are deeply flawed people and find company with Tolkiens characters. and they get to feel smart because of all the juicy foreign new terms they can endlessly memorize, further alienating themselves from reality

>>21725158
homosexuals who confuse fraternity and platonic love with romance because they have never been able to experience it (other males exclude them from it because they are gay and its awkward and sexuality has social consequences)

>>21725385
I'll be completely honest, I never found it all that cringey. You'll have to forgive me, I've only just started reading the Fellowship, but I grew up on the movies.

Am a guy but I always rooted for her. As a child I sympathized with Merry he was told he was a burden, too small to fight for his home. Eowyn's story seemed to run pretty parallel. As far as I see it, she is just the female counterpart to Merry's story. Both characters are seen as "burdens" to be protected but are disgusted by that perception and yearn to be more. That's admirable as shit. Plus, in the movies, Merry and Eowyn kinda have this weird gentle mommy gf thing going on that is undeniable

I think its done with as little cheese as possible while still being epic and satisfying. At least its not the fucking she-elf from The Hobbit.

>>21728646
not that anon but ever since i got my medication adjusted i can actually sit down and read for longer than 20 minutes, feels good man

>>21722771
This. Genuinely the best part in all three books. Return of the King is the best and most engaging of the whole trilogy because of this.

>>21724192
Frodo's decision at the council to volunteer for the quest was one of the most memorable parts of Fellowship for me and serves as a recurring source of inspiration. He chose duty over safety and comfort and for all he knew was walking into certain doom.

>>21728663

>>21727807
watching the movies before reading it was definetly a mistake. Now instead of going in with a clean slate and imagining the unique Tolkien settings and characters i cannot help but see Orlando Bloom and ratface Marty Freeman, or simply the typial orc from the movies.
Worst part is the scenery also being botched and tainted by what i saw in the films..

This is trash tier advice in my opinion, it kinda kills the magic of the books.

>>21721439
The prose is more beautiful than a lot of fantasy novels like Harry Potter by a long shot. It's simple but occasionally blossoms into what I've come to see as some of the best instances prose poetry in English at emotional points.
I guess your enjoyment of any particular book depends on your personality. If you enjoy old mythology and adventure novels from the 1800s (like me) I would say LotR is probably up your ally
>>21723151
My nigger. The folkloric writing style here is unexpected but striking

>>21724261
>As a kid, I fantasised about being strong enough to protect Frodo because I thought he was this special thing that would be certainly worth dying for. I never wanted to be him though, just die for him. I don't really know where that fits with what you said but I think it's interesting
It kind of goes against what he is trying to prove. Frodo becomes a Christlike figure of sorts, though a deeper one than Aslan in that he also represents the British soldiers of WWI that Tolkien fought with (one of the few allegories that Tolkien seemed to not hate). No one really wants to live out his ideals of self-sacrifice as a power fantasy because they are painful, yet they are kind of inspired to self-sacrifice for him just because he is so kind
Fits with the relationship Christians have for Christ on the cross, they want to be kind and self-sacrificing FOR him not like him since they can never truly be the guy

>>21721439
>just another fantasy world for children like harry potter
Yes. Except Silmallirion I guess.
People praise it because it was first and read because it is famous.
You can safely ignore it.

>>21722805
I don't want more t-shirts and coffee mugs with Orlando Bloom. As a very old fan, I really hate how LotR got associated with the big nerd franchises like Star Wars since I always loved it as a piece of literature rather than a series of films with commercial products attached. It's a little unfair of me because the original Jackson trilogy was a real labour of love but the (((producers))) trying to turn it into a cash cow keep associating it with the same soulless drivel as Star Wars and the Harry Potter series.
I don't want their black Buffy the Vampire slayer with pointy ears taking the place of Arwen and Galadriel in the public consciousness, they were legit good portrayals of femininity
>>21725427
I am not a feminist by far, but man, this is a simplistic take on Eowyn. The point is that she swallows the propaganda that women are worse than men because they can't participate in warfare, but then found out that war is hell.
It's just that we are all informed by empowerment propaganda now

>>21727783
>Any future authors that write for sci-fi and fantasy need to be forewarned never to allow adaptations of your work for any given reason whatsoever.
If someone wants to adapt your work into a film, never let it be Hollywood or you will be raped. I could trust an Eastern European or French director to do it well but Americans will strip it down to its basics, replace your Asians with Jews and your Nordics with blacks, and then sell it till everyone's bored

>>21731231
>No one really wants to live out his ideals of self-sacrifice as a power fantasy because they are painful

Speak for yourself.

>>21731389
Yeah, maybe I should not have generalized with "nobody" but typical power fantasies are about power without pain
That's why they are power fantasies and hence why they are often immature or "cringey" for lack of a better word. Think capeshit or Harry Potter finding out that he is a rich wizard without having done anything to achieve it like the vastly superior Ged from Wizard of Earthsea. Tolkien avoids this feeling that he is tempting you to self-insert, even though a lot of film adaptations of Tolkien lose this aspect
I think that's what separates him from best-selling fantasy novels that are typically popular in the end aside from better prose; his characters pay the price for their hero status and never enjoy it. It's a fairy tale by a Catholic veteran

>>21730892
I never imagined ice cold Orlando "Wooden Acting" bloom as Legolas the immortal boy from the books who runs so light he never leaves footsteps and clings to Gimli for comfort
It's like they removed everything that was otherworldly from the character and turned him into a superhero
Good lord, I hate America for failing to understand old world faeries and thinking of them as sexy people

>>21729959
Eowyn is just Hervor. She's from a very different time before feminism became pushy. She's also still feminine and settles down to have kids

>>21728646
I have really bad ADHD but for some reason it never hits me with books, because I can control how quickly I read
When it's passive media like youtube I often need some other form of stimulus

>>21731526
I don't have ADHD but I have trouble watching long videos too.
With books I can get absorbed into it. I can't really relate to anons saying they have trouble reading longer texts like LotR and various Victorian novels, I just breeze through the chapters
I wonder why it is that I can't get the same feeling with Youtub

>>21731554
Different types of people IMO.
With language learning you can split people between those who are naturally stronger at listening comprehension, and those who are naturally stronger at reading comprehension
I'm way better at reading comprehension, and I can easily read a book for 2-3 hours without a break. Probably a correlation there

>>21721439
It's just a bible for christians larping as atheists and atheists larping as christians

>>21731526
Tried watching on 2x speed? Some stuff I watch on 2.5x via Newpipe. Videos drive me insane because it's usually some babbling fucking normie repeating himself 10 times to make one point, or using tons of filler to "situate" himself as speaker (a sign of Ongian orality).

>>21731641
>>21733017
It may be that filler in books is enjoyable (comfy imagery and poetic prose) while video filler is a normalfag kidding

>>21733017
Definitely a good idea for videos you expect to learn from. Many people say watching a lecture at 2x speed allows you to grasp the whole of it a lot easier.
>>21734316
I should add a caveat: A lot of books actually are boring. But mainly those produced post World War I, from an institution of higher learning in Western Europe or North America. The worst prose I have ever read in my life comes from professors.

But yeah, fiction (or well written non-fiction) is really never boring.

>>21734590
I am not a fan of Steven Pinker but he has a nice quote on this, /lit/ professors insisting "Write what you know" only produce books about /lit/ professors yearning to cheat on their wives. It's hilarious. One of the other reasons I respect Tolkien. The other professors were reeing at him for writing a fairy tale and insisting he write something "serious" but he ended up being more successful than them by a lot

>>21721439
Shoud I buy this set? How is the story?

>>21734643
I loved the poem in Beren and Luthien so much when I was a teen, it helped inspire me to read other romantic era poetry. Still ranks among my favs along with Rime of the Ancient Mariner

"Thou fool: a phantom thou didst see
that I, I Sauron, made to snare
thy lovesick wits. Naught else was there.
Cold ’tis with Sauron’s wraiths to wed!"

-JRR Tolkien's Lay of Leithian

>>21734643
Children of Hurin is better than the Hobbit. Definitely a must-read.

Beren and Luthien and Fall of Gondolin are more like academic analytic works in that they present multiple versions of the story with commentary by Christopher Tolkien.

Wheel of Time is based

>>21722055
Knowing the lore

>>21723499
put your finger in my ring frodo, nobody can see you if you wear my ring ha ha ha ha ha

>>21721830
whole load of overrated shit. This guy took folklore and cartoonified it; all of the creatures were stolen and rebranded as non-allegorical like some deranged procrustean nightmare. This is also my feeling on the Odyssey.

May Tolkeins bones one day be smashed to dust with a hammer.

>>21738075
Fuck you, Homer-hater

>>21738080
shut up Martial!
Zoilus

>>21738122
>Zolius
Get crucified by Chad

>>21738075
>This is also my feeling on the Odyssey.
It was at this point you turned regular bait into bad bait.

>>21722810
>It's deeply Christian. He was a Catholic.
That directly contradicts Tolkien's own statement on his books.

>>21740537
He said that it was profoundly Catholic but not allegorical; Gandalf the Grey is a Christlike figure but not literally Jesus such as Aslan

>>21725799
Fun fact; the Indigenous Natives of New Zealand believed in tall beautiful nature spirits with white skin. Galadriel lives

>>21724192
>There was no logical reason for Frodo to succeed, "humility and kindness" do not win fights
All the strength of men and elves in Middle Earth would have lost against Sauron but for Bilbo and Frodo's compassion towards Gollum. There's a providence at work - Gandalf says as much - the hand of God is at work through the small virtues of ordinary people and can turn the tide in ways the great and powerful cannot. You can argue about whether or not that's actually true IRL, but it's pretty clear in the books.

Saruman is particularly on-point; he is "wise" but blind to anything he doesn't see as great and powerful. He dismisses Radagast out of hand as a fool, but Radagast sent the eagle that rescued Gandalf from Orthanc. He can't even conceive of the notion that mere hobbits could be relevant in any way at all. But all these meaningless people doing things below his notice combine to destroy his grand plans.

>>21738075
>This guy took folklore and cartoonified it; all of the creatures were stolen and rebranded as non-allegorical like some deranged procrustean nightmare. This is also my feeling on the Odyssey.
You do know that folklore derives from ordinary people telling fun stories around the fire at night? It was never transcendent except in the imaginations of literary types. It was mutable, human, and wildly inconsistent.

>>21740612
He is baiting; Homer is based and Tolkien was the closest thing to a modern English Homer

>>21740588
It's definitely a Christian universe in conception. The masses just failed to notice because "the hero always wins" is such a mainstay at this point

>>21725296
What edition?

>>21729959
>as a child I sympathized with Merry
Zoomers in a nutshell

>>21721439
>is just another fantasy world for children
You mean like Hesiod and Homer, or Faerie Tales of the Jews? Maybe stick to non-fiction, like How To Use Your Brain

>>21740655
> Tolkien was the closest thing to a modern English Homer

Maybe textually true but conceptually equivalent to saying The Lion King is the closest thing to a modern cartoon Hamlet