/lit/ - Literature

>>21539529
But that's a reddit theory

I always assumed the 'Holden raped his sister's thing was just a baseless lit meme but you mention compelling evidence. Would you mind sharing any of this evidence? I read the book (granted it was long ago) and I don't remember anything insinuating anything of the sort and I think that is something Id remember but I could be wrong.

>>21539579
Wrong, newfag. I and a few other anons expostulated on the rape case back in 2013.
>>21539580
You can read when Holden is in his room that he rapes her among other textual evidence

>>21539529
>>21539580
He didn't

>>21539529
>>21539580
I reread it recently after someone was stating there are multiple hints every chapter beginning with the part about his parents being "touchy as hell." I didn't find any confirmation of this theory.

There's a bunch of masonic rituals and references and stuff woven into the story though.

>>21539589
I remember a part where he describes his Dad as 'touchy' but I thought it meant sensitive, easily angered, w/e. Id have to read that part again to see if that definition fits in context.

>>21539605
Well that is the context he presents but it wouldn't be impossible for it to be referring to some sort of molestation. But I didn't notice anything else in the book supporting that, and I don't think it's too common for a child to be being molested by both parents, and he clearly states they're both touchy as hell.

>>21539529
It's just a bunch of degenerate faggots projecting their filthy ideas on Holden.

https://stereorealist.wordpress.com/2017/04/20/the-secret-rape-of-holden-caulfield/
I'm not reading all that, so will you guys read it for me and tell me what I think of it just like you do with all the books I've 'read'

Okay, let's elaborate: is there textual evidence such that a reasonable person would conclude that Holden forced sexual acts (presumably penetration) upon his sister during the events? No. BUT. But... there is a significant amount of suggestive language, themes, and implications applied to their relationship that would be hard to ignore. From the mass of touchy-feely stuff Holden does with her and comments about while in her room, to the fact that he remarks MULTIPLE times on how he is uncomfortable with how close they are ("sometimes I think she likes me too much"), to the more discrete references to molestation and sexual misconduct (the teacher; the girl and her father), it is justifiable to believe Holden had something abnormal going with her. Who am I kidding: he rapes his sister, Phoebe.

>>21539622
It is a little weird to wake your sister up for some late night dancing lol. I still don't think the book supports this. He was just sort of fascinated by children and was in an intermediary stage himself that he felt was removing him from that world, which he thought was nice, and didn't necessarily want to leave, not seeing a single example of something as good in the adult world... or something.

>>21539622
kek do you guys even have sisters? He doesn't do anything out of the ordinary in the entire book. All I'm seeing is a bunch of virgins projecting their sexual perversions onto a literary character.

>>21539641
Yes because fingering her butthole as she is sleeping is totally normal

>>21539646
>headcanon

>>21539646
This didn't happen and is disgusting

>>21539529
Wait are you retards serious? He doesn't do anything that weird to his sister, I guess it was a little out of the ordinary when he pinches her bottom but other than that it's pretty normal brother sister stuff. Is this just a board of only children?

>>21539666
Nice try, Satan.

>>21539666
I am almost 30 and I have never had a girlfriend

>>21539666
I'm not even sure that is a weird thing to do to a kid in your family. My grandma always pinched my butt as a silly show of affection. Wait...bros. Was I molested?

>>21539674
I don't think it's that weird either because it's clearly not done for sexual purposes.
>Was I molested?
If you weren't why are you on 4chan?

i think it could be argued that he is in some kind of psych institute, but i think it's far more probable that he is in some kind of medical ward. first of all, he clearly has some kind of physical problems, he faints in the bathroom at the museum. he smokes, and he spends most of the book walking around outside in the middle of december. i'd say he's most likely in a tb ward or he's got bronchitis or something.

there's no textual evidence whatsoever that holden did or would do anything that led him to be hopsitalised for psychological reasons. it's obvious from his character that he would resist any such kind of thing, and i think he would have to do something pretty major to be sent off to a funny farm by his parents, who are concerned about appearances and would have multiple haemorrages apiece. i could definitely see them sending him to some shrink in nyc, but not pulling him out of school at 16 and packing him off to a mental institution.

the most outrageous thing holden does is to punch out a window, but that was after the death of his brother and he was quite a lot younger then. otherwise, the signs are that holden keeps a lid on things, despite him repeatedly saying that he's crazy. (which would be a pretty weird thing to say if he was in a mental hopsital) i don't think you got sectioned for ennui in 1949.

he also says he "got sick", and if he means that euphemistically it would be the single instance of him covering up a defect, or phonily adhering to social mores.

there's obviously a possibility he had some kind of breakdown immediately after the events of the book, he must be in some kind of hospital and there's a psychiatrist there. but no other part of the text suggests that he did.

he obviously rapes phoebe though, at the very least some heavy petting. she turns him on. i would be scared too if i was one of those little boys he takes into the egyptian display.

>>21539620
I'm reading it and I never knew this novel was so much about sex.

>>21539681
Holden doesn't just rape his sister - he rapes, murders, dismembers and eats every person he encounters in the book, starting with his roommate (that's why none of them re-appears).

The only one who escapes is actually his history teacher, because his nose-picking disgusts Holden so much he can't maintain an erection and loses his appetite.

The book is a thinly veiled account of Masonic initiation rites. That's the only reason it has become part of the canon.

You have to read between the lines to pick up on this but honestly it's not that hard, assuming you have a proper unexpurgated edition

>>21539684
>Holden doesn't just rape his sister - he rapes, murders, dismembers and eats every person he encounters in the book, starting with his roommate (that's why none of them re-appears).
Go back to /x/. Nice bait.

>>21539681
Hold on hold on that blog post doesn't mention any kind of encounter with Phoebe at all. Link me the real article you boob.
>>21539687
Seething is not bait.

>>21539620
The article says Mr Antolini had raped Holden before. Nothing about Holden raping Phoebe.

>something atextual could be derived if you Read Between the Lines
If you want him to have raped her, sure, you can build a case. Such with all writing. It says more about the reader than the author.

>>21539702
Does it really? There's nothing in the book to support that. Holden freaks the fuck out when he's patting his head and it's clearly the first time he's had that kind of encounter with the guy, who before that he really respects.

>>21539725
Read the article. I'm not saying it happened but there were some interesting points made. Like that Antolini drugged Holden and that's why he faints later.

>>21539725
>That kinda stuff’s happening to me about twenty times since I was a kid. I can’t stand it.

The part where Holden is erasing "fuckit"s is odd. Its all about preserving childish innocence. That's what the catcheri in the rye quote is about. Holden isa creepy incel.

>>21539763
This doesn't implicate Antolini. If he can't stand it he wouldn't have had such respect for him and voluntarily gone to his house to sleep.

>>21539738
Well I glanced at it, and the first thing they say is he's at a mental hospital, which this anon very clearly demonstrated isn't likely
>>21539679
Also describes Holden as "homophobic" which gives me a clue as to the type of person this is, so of course this is their "theory." Just seems stupid

If there is an essay or article arguing that Holden raped Phoebe, Google sure as fuck doesn't want to show it to you. But I'm not reading that sickening novel so I will simply assume it's true.

>>21539579
Yep, it's a pure Reddit theory to draw attention away from the fact that the homo teacher tried to rape Holden. Faggots can do no wrong in their mind so it has to be the weird White kid that's an evil rapist.

>>21539679
> don't think you got sectioned for ennui in 1949.
You do get sent to a private hospital if you’re rich and rape your sister after your dad rapes you. Also doctors in tb wards don’t make you tell the story 100 times.

>>21540788
what if... and hear me out on this one guys... noone raped anyone in the book and there's no reason to think otherwise

>>21540861
LEAVE NOW.

>>21539674
Grandma brutally molested you by 4chan standards, seek help anon

>>21539666
none of these people have ever talked to a human female other than their mother

>>21539529
Me [as interviewed] (2014) 'He Rapes His Sister Phoebe' Explained" (the link to the article is: SaQB4y ) : pp. 6-10. >>4528424 in your favourite archive

>>21540963
>>>4528424
>>/lit/thread/S4528424#p4535931

Holden Caulfield ruined a generation of YA writers.

>>21539769
The catcher in the rye is about mishearing a censored song from a very filthy poem. The song is usually the censored version, but the poet Burns actually wrote:
O gin a body meet a body,
Comin' throu the rye:
Gin a body fuck a body,
Need a body cry.

Comin' thro' the rye, my jo,
An' coming' thro' the rye;
She fand a staun o' staunin' graith,
Comin' thro' the rye.

Gin a body meet a body,
Comin' thro' the glen;
Gin a body fuck a body,
Need the warld ken.

Gin a body meet a body,
Comin' thro the grain;
Gin a body fuck a body,
Cunt's a body's ain.

Gin a body meet a body,
By a body's sel,
What na body fucks a body,
Wad a body tell.

Mony a body meets a body,
They dare na weel avow;
Mony a body fucks a body,
Ye wadna think its true.
The song probably existed as an explicit sex song before Burns, but Burns' version popularised it, especially when he wrote the more tame, but still risqué, theatrical version. That's censored again when it starts getting recorded as a song, but Holden changing the lyrics to "catch" instead of "meet" and imagining children is only childish innocence if he misheard all versions of the poem and songs so badly that he heard none of the risqué bits or context at all and isn't covering for a more obvious intention.

Perfect Day for Bananafish had child rape in it. Not Catcher.

>>21541175
It didn't either
>>21541131
Unless they both did I don't know, this post maybe changes my mind

>>21540993
Do you have an archived post of that "he raped his sister phoebe" anon that went on a rambling about hostile reading and brought up deleuze and guattari and eco and stuff?
It did not make much sense to me but it was lucid and interesting enough that I would not mind seeing it used in a novel like the hamlet theory in Ulysses

>>21539579
Have you tried reading the book, before spewing nonsense.

>>21541237
Has a good novel with any appreciation for the internet been written yet?

>>21541271
Gravity's Rainbow

>>21539665
Why's it disgusting?

This book meant a lot to me in high school but feels a little vacuous now
>life is hard and being an adult can be sad, just find what you love and cling onto it
The message feels too limp

>>21539529
>Endless discussion about 'Holden raped Phoebe' schizo theories
>Nobody ever mentions Holden's extremely homoerotic thoughts about his roommate Stradlater
Did any of you even read the book

>>21542918
Just cuck fantasies

>>21539529
I just don't know why the fuck this is taught in western academia. What is there to learn? What morality is in this story. What does this tell kids about how to live life? Honestly, they should be teaching kids books about someone who rises to the top of a company or accomplishes ANYTHING with his life that requires constitution. Why do we teach a book about an aimless emo faggot instead of Homer?

Iliad and Odyssey have men working together and accomplishing tasks... and during the journey they learn about the nature of the world and different types of people.

Instead we learn House on Mango Street, Killing Fields, Catcher in the Rye, 1984, or Dorian Grey (which amounts to a fun Breaking Bad episode) NONE OF WHICH provide a competent model of how to act righteously in the world. It's just complaining or worrying. All of those books are extremely feminized.

>>21539580
this was one of the first 'classic' books I ever read as an adult (mid-20s). I didn't read shit in HS, even shit I was suppose to read.

So to reiterate, this was one of the FIRST "literary" books I ever read. I was not lit-woke and went in cold. I got the rape/molestation vibe from the time Holden was talking to Phoebe in her room;
>"What did you have to go and do that for?"

I shrugged it off and thought it was just me being a pervert.
In more recent years, after another 100 or so books under my belt (and being awakened to the JQ, for what its worth), reading /lit/'s analysis of the book affirms my original intuition.

tl;dr-- HE RAPES HIS SISTER.

>>21539641
>All I'm seeing is a bunch of virgins projecting their sexual perversions onto a literary character.
Hello?? What the fuck do you even think literature is for, nigger???

>>21539684
plausible.

>>21543014
It's part of the nebulous attempt to continue using literature as a means of moral education, but without any concrete values established by tradition, so instead of going "These guys are good because they are strong", or even "Sodom and Gomorrah got nuked because they were degenerate", we get William Golding's "Mankind is evil", Harper Lee's "Racism is bad", and so on. A mix of books with obvious messages that society will inculcate in you anyway, next to post-modern novels that don't really have any meaning but appeal to the aesthetic sense like Catcher in the Rye. 1984 does have an obvious meaning, but I would say it's definitely less relevant now than it was back then.

Also this thread is depressing. I haven't really hung out with my sister since childhood. We used to be close

>>21543014
>Why do we teach a book about an aimless emo faggot instead of Homer?
>Iliad and Odyssey have men working together and accomplishing tasks... and during the journey they learn about the nature of the world and different types of people.

And now you understand the push for STEM.

>>21543088
checked.
>We used to be close
How close...??

>>21543014
>the book is pointless it should be about corporate climbers
lol what

>>21539529
Hello

>>21540920
>by 4chan standards
*feminist standards

>>21541237
I don’t have my discussion of D&G with catcher but can look for it maybe tonight while playing gachimuchi videos.

>>21544347
Waruso doesn't like D&G as a search term so I guess you'll have to remember something else I said from that thread.

>>21543070
The major theme of the novel is a young man coming into his sexuality and learning about the dynamics of men and women and his dealing with his self-image etc. The whole thing is full of sex and he literally gets sexually assaulted by his teaching who drugs him, and you're just going to play it off like any application of those dynamics or themes to his relationship with his sister is completely out of the blue, conspiracy theory tier nonsense?
Just fuck off NPC. You can read books but you don't necessarily understand them. You're like those guys who post the blue curtains meme which was actually present here >>21540993 at least nine years ago. Pathetic pseuds.

>>21542818
>he reads for the message

Shut the fuck up retard