/lit/ - Literature

>>21360291
Notes from the Underground

>>21360291
Min Kamp series by Knausgaard

>>21360291
a little life

>>21360291
Hunger Knut Hamsun

>>21360291
A Personal Matter

>>21360667
>>21360468
>>21360400
>>21360398
>>21360337
thank anons, writing all these down

The Loser by Thomas Bernhard

>>21360291
I just finished reading this an hour ago.
Too lazy to make a thread, but do you think there was an instance of sexual abuse during the childhood of Osamu ? Most people seem to think it's implied, and it's the main catalyst for his dread of the human race.

Another thing. "He was an angel". Was that last statement at the end of the book telling something in the bigger picture, or was it just a superficial remark made by one of many who couldn't untangle the lies surrounding the persona of the man himself?

>>21360291
The bible, cause boy you need Jesus!

>>21361627
Christcuck in every random thread I swear

>>21361431
i was under the impression he was raped as a child? Cant remember why though or where i read this

>>21363040
The author or the character?
In the book, he goes saying that the housemaids changed his life forever "doing the most despicable thing anyone can do to a child". You're left wondering what is ir!? Oh no... Can it be...
Aaand he then says it's some bs of hearing them talk behind his parents backs, showing him the two-faced, deceitful, ill nature of human beings, which made him fear them for life. Redditors says it's sexual abuse but it's like they didn't read the fucking book.

>>21363436
Ok that explains it cuz I honestly didn’t remember that in the book. Lol No Longer Human is so fuckign dramatic I love it

bum

>>21363436
I remembered it as clearly insinuating something sexual so i went back and read the passage again and the part where he ponders telling the police still seems to point to that.
The part about the servants talking behind his parents back isnt "the crime", its the reason why he feels he cant tell anyone. "the human beings around me had rigorously
sealed me off from the world of trust or distrust"

But if you still disagree Id like to hear why

>>21360291
>Suggestions like No Longer Human
Notes from the Underground

>>21363436
thats interesting because in the Junji Ito version it does depict him as being sexually assaulted as a child, multiple times

>>21364948
see>>21364850
he misread it and decided everyone else was wrong instead of rereading it to verify

>>21364850
My problem with that interpretation is that it simplifies the character's struggle and utter despair throughout his life, and it links it to an isolated traumatic experience. As most people that I read often said "It's what caused him to be that way". It feels like they toss Osamu and his writing out of the window as another traumatized rape victim, as if it was the only way a person could possess anthropophobia.
If I look at the bigger picture, of how the whole book was written, and all the events that transpired, I agree with what you wrote on your first reply; it's incredibly dramatic, the way he narrates even the most mundane things, as if it was a total hellish, unbearable pain. In that specific passage, he talks about being "taught" something about the true nature of people (not before or after the "crime", mind you). It's that knowledge that's so evil and cruel, that's enough to completely change a developing child's outlook on life. It's why, I believe, he chooses the word criminal to describe it. Then he begins reflecting on it, and how it shaped his fear, his distrust of people, having to bear whatever it's thrown at him and yada yada. Later in the book, in the mental hospital, pic related is his reasoning to why he's been accepting this awful things happening to him, not retaliating and what's he really afraid of. It's never about what they'll physically do to him, but about dropping his mask of deceit, of acting, and being ultimately cast aside.
Also, Osamu doesn't have any trouble later on when he narrates the sexual abuse his wife went through, or the crimes that he or other parties committed. Why, then, would he purposely avoid being direct about the matter in this instance?

>>21364948
>>21365013
Junji Ito's version holds no value when discussing the original book.

>>21365057
>As most people that I read often said "It's what caused him to be that way". It feels like they toss Osamu and his writing out of the window as another traumatized rape victim, as if it was the only way a person could possess anthropophobia.

This is indeed a stupid and superficial way of looking at it, although that happens early he emphasizes his "otherness" right from the get go and the episode in question is not presented as an event that changes everything radically but rather as one of many bad experiences in his life (much like his later traumatic experiences). However it does not change the fact that he clearly alludes to being molested.

>If I look at the bigger picture, of how the whole book was written, and all the events that transpired, I agree with what you wrote...; it's incredibly dramatic, the way he narrates even the most mundane things, as if it was a total hellish, unbearable pain. In that specific passage, he talks about being "taught" something about the true nature of people (not before or after the "crime", mind you). It's that knowledge that's so evil and cruel, that's enough to completely change a developing child's outlook on life. It's why, I believe, he chooses the word criminal to describe it. Then he begins reflecting on it, and how it shaped his fear, his distrust of people, having to bear whatever it's thrown at him and yada yada.
It seems to me youre to caught up in other peoples superficial reading of the book. While its not a complicated book there is a certain something to "get" about it and reading what someone who cant see it as more than a confessional tragedy has to say about it will always be frustrating to you. However a part of that something to get is that Yozo from the very first page considers himself "not human", meaning its not a story of becoming inhuman, but what someones life story would sound like if they were always convinced they were inhuman (to put it very simply, no one event is behind his mindset). His unshakeable conviction that hes not "human" is just as much the cause of his traumatic life as anything done to him by others, if not moreso.

>Later in the book, in the mental hospital, pic related is his reasoning to why he's been accepting this awful things happening to him, not retaliating and what's he really afraid of. It's never about what they'll physically do to him, but about dropping his mask of deceit, of acting, and being ultimately cast aside.
This is sound.

>Also, Osamu doesn't have any trouble later on when he narrates the sexual abuse his wife went through, or the crimes that he or other parties committed. Why, then, would he purposely avoid being direct about the matter in this instance?
His wifes rape is very impassively described, while he is distressed to some extent he does not react very strongly. I believe he avoids being direct because its simply not that important to him, less horrifying than being exposed by his dimwitted classmate as an actor.

>>21361466
The translator, Donald Keene had a pretty apt analysis of that specific statementy.

"He does not insist because of his experiences that the
others are all wrong and he alone right. On the contrary, he records with
devastating honesty his every transgression of a code of human conduct
which he cannot fathom. Yet, as Dazai realized (if the "I" of the novel did
not), the cowardly acts and moments of abject collapse do not tell the whole
story. In a superb epilogue the only objective witness testifies, "He was an
angel," and we are suddenly made to realize the incompleteness of Yozo's
portrait of himself. In the way that most men fail to see their own cruelty,
Yozo had not noticed his gentleness and his capacity for love."

>>21360291
Stoner, the stranger, nausea (not sure how much I'd recommend this one actually). This list might have some other ones that are good too.

>>21365268
>However it does not change the fact that he clearly alludes to being molested.
As I said, I thought it was implied as well, but further reading into it I cannot really see it. Not in the style the story was written nor in the way Yozo was developded. Seems too random to give us a confession of abuse, and categorized as the worst thing ever, to simply not elaborate further in any way, or in it's effect on the child. He says it seems futile to report such a thing to his parents, the police or... the government? Again, I believe this to just be Osamu's way of giving more cutting emphasis on Yozo's fears via magnification, if you will. His social sickeness seems intrinsic, yes. But the cause of his distrust of people, had no connection, the way I see it, to any apparent sexual abuse. So why mention it, at all? Well, he doesn't, and I stand by my point here, that is merely a vague interpration of what that crime was.

His wifes rape is very impassively described, while he is distressed to some extent he does not react very strongly.
Nah, he clearly was disturbed by it, enough to escape the situation and go cry miserably in the roof, subsequently becoming a drug addict and falling in a deeper hole of depression. But see, here the abuse had an actual point being there, had causes leading to the act (Yoshiko's innocence/disbelief) and consequences, and and it was a focal point for the final act. He goes as far as reading novels about sexual abuse after it to better comprehend how to approach the matter. This just furthers tells me that the sexual abuse of Yozo didn't take place, it wasn't the crime.

>>21360291
ham on rye by bukowski

>>21365372
Well for one you ignored my main response to this. Reproduced below for your convenience.
>It seems to me youre to caught up in other peoples superficial reading of the book. While its not a complicated book there is a certain something to "get" about it and reading what someone who cant see it as more than a confessional tragedy has to say about it will always be frustrating to you. However a part of that something to get is that Yozo from the very first page considers himself "not human", meaning its not a story of becoming inhuman, but what someones life story would sound like if they were always convinced they were inhuman (to put it very simply, no one event is behind his mindset). His unshakeable conviction that hes not "human" is just as much the cause of his traumatic life as anything done to him by others, if not moreso.

The problem with everything youre saying is that you are retroactively applying your current understanding of the book to a situation thats more or less clear cut because is doesnt fit into your understanding of what Yozo getting molested means to the story. The reason why "crime" and the superlatives are used is to make it less ambiguous

You are trying to build an argument that ignores that the actual text.
>The part about the servants talking behind his parents back isnt "the crime", its the reason why he feels he cant tell anyone. "the human beings around me had rigorously
sealed me off from the world of trust or distrust"
Try challenging this with your own interpretations of the actual text and not with "I believe..."

>He goes as far as reading novels about sexual abuse after it to better comprehend how to approach the matter. This just furthers tells me that the sexual abuse of Yozo didn't take place, it wasn't the crime.
Again youre just ignoring the premise of the book and interpreting Yozo as a regular guy while simultaneously answering your own question. The Yoshiko incident has a lot of symbolic/plot significance, the rape itself is not the point. To put it simply its what makes his (extremely short) marriage act fall apart and revert to his normal state.

>Why mention it at all
This is a non argument and the centre of your problem. Youre not trying to make sense of it, youre trying to rewrite the book.

How is this book any different from Never Let Me Go?

>>21365454
I guess I should read another translation because I'm not getting that, at all, specially with how Osamu narrates every part of the story.
But tell me honestly, isn't getting butt-raped out of nowhere as a little boy an important event that definetly would derive into something later on? Doesn't it requiere any other mention acording to you other than a vague implication? So like, the servants got a taste of that ass and that's it? No more rapey rapey? No more mention of anything regarding it ever again?
Remember this is a semi-biographical novel, I searched the maid story from his other book and there really isn't anything resembling rape either. So idk.

>>21365489
I gave text examples and specific references, you have not.

>But tell me honestly, isn't getting butt-raped out of nowhere as a little boy an important event that definetly would derive into something later on? Doesn't it requiere any other mention acording to you other than a vague implication? So like, the servants got a taste of that ass and that's it? No more rapey rapey? No more mention of anything regarding it ever again?
Missing the point of the book again, i reiterate.
However a part of that something to get is that Yozo from the very first page considers himself "not human", meaning its not a story of becoming inhuman, but what someones life story would sound like if they were always convinced they were inhuman (to put it very simply, no one event is behind his mindset). His unshakeable conviction that hes not "human" is just as much the cause of his traumatic life as anything done to him by others, if not moreso.
How significant you feel like it should be is irrelevant.

Also the "Maidservant of the crime" is emphasized later on, specifying female on male if it matters to you.

>>21365458
The two aren't remotely similar, beyond being written by ethnic japs

>>21366497
They're not that dissimilar in structure. Both are fictional autobiographies of characters unable to fit into mainstream society, focusing on their coping mechanisms and on their relationships with others. They differ in pretty heavily in style and theme but I can see how anon might have grouped them together.

>>21366656
Never let me go is not about that. You're thinking of The remains of the day