/lit/ - Literature

Me, at this very moment

>>21264289
based
310 flame it

>>21264277
My diary desu
t. Read the tao te ching many times and no longer need it

>>21264277
The bible

>>21264277
We're about to be man

tao teh ching is probably one of the greatest works of philosophy ever

>>21264277
Master Chuang/Zhuang arguably.

Pretty good though.

>>21264758
Why? I don't get it.

>>21264635
wrong

>>21264850
its not asking you to do anything except literally be like water flowing through a river that is reality. you be and dont try to be anything other than your being

>>21264850
Because it actually works

>>21264850
Ironically not getting it is the only way to get it. The Dao that can be described is not the true Dao.

>>21264850
There's nothing to get. You just go with the flow.

>>21264289
possibly

>>21264635
dead meme

>>21264748
good meme

>>21264758
It's the best i've found

>>21264819
I liked Chaung but didn't truly understand it at first. I needed Alan Watt's commentary to complete the picture; Chuang was trying to push people into balance, which is really dependent on the time and the people he's around . I find Lao tzu and UG to be at the center.

>the story of the carpenter and the useless tree
fcken golden
Nike: "Just Be Useless"

>>21265006
I'm not so sure. We can't understand the thing itself because it is greater than us, but we can understand smaller parts of it can't we? Isn't wisdom simple awareness of the true nature of the universe and the limitations of our understanding?

To everyone:
I found UG Krishnamurti to have the same understanding as Lao Tzu. UG helped further my understanding in linked video, when he talks about humans being just energy moving around to balance the universe: https://youtu.be/4ebv8U97xL4?t=736

BUT CAN WE GO HIGHER?

read Liezi if Laozi or Zhuangzi filtered you

>>21264277
Abhinavagupta's Tantraloka.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FF503RdDMZA

>>21265176
This lecture just touches the first verse of Tantraloka.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hxaz7FbtPFk

Anybody compare these two translations? I found the Mitchell book OP posted to be a bit lacking

Dao, hinduism, and zoroastrianism and its derivatives are all slavish reflections from the original pool

Ecclesiastes is a good text and litmus test of the reader's spiritual state. Those who think its conclusions are nihilistic out themselves as insect-brained materialists, and bad readers.
>>21264850
Then you're on the right track.

>>21265153
Yes and yes. We can perceive the elements of it acting, though that doesn’t give a clear picture of the totality (monks and an elephant and all that). I think it was attributed to Socrates (and paraphrasing, probably badly): the only thing I know with any certainty is that I know very little at all.

>>21265214
Are you saying that the spoken word is not the experienced experience? Sure, but the spoken word can help point towards what was not seen.

>>21265153
>I find Lao tzu and UG
UG?
>Useless tree
What I love about this is the tree isn't really useless. The story is useful and the tree serves the story. Like the,
>how do you know fish like that?
>from right here by the river I know it.
Or the butterfly episode. I like Master Chaung because it's more personable. You grow to relate to the characters and its feels more alive. Helps me get a sense of the mode of life they're advocating, but I think for sheer level of insight and impact Dao de Jing is superior.

Spark some joss for the little fish you sages,
Let the wind blow and the spirit flow home,
Rushing about, trying to pile up shit,
What does that prove?
I speak but don't really have anything to say,
that hasn't be said before,
But birds sing every dusk and every dawn.

>>21265157
Hadn't heard of it. M'goi

>“Master Yan said, ‘How excellent was death for the ancients—the benevolent found peace therein, the inhumane were subdued thereby.’ Death is a return of virtue; the ancients referred to the dead as people who have returned.
>“To refer to the dead as people who have returned means that the living are travelers. Those who go traveling and don’t know how to return are the lost. “When one person is lost, the whole society repudiates him, but when all the world is lost, no one knows what’s wrong. “If someone leaves his homeland and his relatives, gives up his job, and wanders the four quarters never to return, what kind of person is this? Society will consider him a mad vagabond. Now suppose someone takes care of himself, takes pride in his abilities, cultivates his reputation, and boasts to the world without restraint—what kind of person is this? Society will consider him intelligent and clever. “These two are both wrong, yet society accepts one but not the other. Only sages know who to deal with and who to avoid.”
Yep. Checks out

>>21264277
The Actual Tao, duh.

>>21264277
Maybe the Dhammapada

Heaven and Earth are not humane
They regard all things as straw dogs
The sage is not humane
He regards all people as straw dogs

>>21264758
>>21264850
Unlike the convoluted systems and semantics of most philosophies, it's as plain and simple as can be.
The comparison to water is apt, because it is clear, common, and life-giving. So much so that it's taken for granted.
We're used to looking for more and more facts, information, and meaning in things. The Tao Te Ching is about seeking less.

>>21266548
>his translation didn't use gender-inclusive pronouns

>>21266571
"He" can mean either gender.

Man follows the Earth
The Earth follows the Heavens
The Heavens follow the Tao
The Tao follows what is natural

>>21266576
he
pronoun
used to refer to a man, boy, or male animal previously mentioned or easily identified.

>>21264277
Tao the King

>>21266613
> 2: used in a generic sense or when the gender of the person is unspecified
You better be trolling.

>>21264277

>>21266617
It's still clearly phallocentric

>>21265445
not what im saying at all. these religions are all from the indo-european rootstock, and all happen to have a pacifistic and slavish morality. modern hinduism is a dravidian tainting of the vedas, likewise, the chinese received this philosophy from a foreign source. I doubt the original, unattested philosophy, which is their source, is anything like how it used to appear in classical chinese. This isnt even considering how poorly the language is understood now, especially outside china, as its a horribly vague language.

>>21266626
"She" contains "he", but "he" does not contain "she".
Likewise with "woman" and "man".
Therefore, "he" as a generic is condescension, not exclusion.

>>21266571
>>21266637
Don't derail a good thread with politics.

>>21264277
What I've wanted to know is there any edition that has multiple translations inside? What do people think of DC Lau's translation?

>>21265199
Adaiss/Lombardo translation is good

>>21264635
nope

>>21266637
>pacifistic and slavish morality
You have to go back

>>21266571
Kill Xirself

>>21266701
>>21266721
not politics. try having an interesting opinion next time. youre right, ill go back to /clg/ faggots

>>21264277
>>21264635
The Tao is the Way, as Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life.

>>21266758
Sounds like you missing the point and derailing when you're talking about morality and indo-aryan stuff etc. All the same Dao no matter when, where or what class.

>>21264850
>I don't get it.
"I" ("you") never will. A lot of people think Taoism is about learning and practicing to relax and "go with the flow". Which is fine and not exactly wrong, but superficial and misleading.
What Taoism is saying is not for "you to go with the flow", but that there's no separate "you" to "go with" the flow. The flow is all there is, and you are essentially flow already. Whether you go with the flow or don't go with the flow you miss the mark. Wu Wei, and Taoism generally, is action or doing without identification with the sense of an actor or doer; the sense of enacting a personal will is surrendered and it's realized that the Tao's "will" enacts "you".
The reason why I say "you" will never get it is because "getting it" is precisely the absence or dissolving of that "you" into the Tao. There never really is any "you"/"me" apart from the Tao, but it's the sense of being a "me" in the body or head that wants to get it (or generally knows or doesn't know) which is exactly what seems to conceal it. When that's seen through it's then obvious (to no one) that "this", all that you currently perceive, is Tao.

>>21265153
>we can understand smaller parts of it can't we?
>BUT CAN WE GO HIGHER?
Not that anon but maybe you'll find something interesting in my other reply here: >>21266979
We can understand its functions or expressions/manifestations to some degree, but Tao itself can only be "understood" when the mental activity of both understanding and not understanding ceases. Tao is what remains when thought and understanding cease or are seen through and not identified with. The first line of the TTC points to this; Tao is "understood" only when there's no longer any concepts held on to, including the concept of Tao.

>>21264277
The Six Enneads by Plotinus, if you're a Westerner.

>>21266979
>>21266980
But what's the point of the Tao Te Ching? What is it meant to communicate?

>>21264277
Red Pine's translation is the best because he provides commentaries from sages accompanying each section.
I also want to read the Zhuangzi, and I'm leaning towards Brook Ziporyn's translation. I haven't decided yet. If anyone has another translation suggestion for Zhuangzi, then I would appreciate it.
Ch'an also complements Daoism well, and I recommend Red Pine's translations of the Diamond and Platform Sutras.
Red Pine's translation of Cold Mountain are also incredible with copious footnotes. Hanshan makes frequent references to both Daoist and Ch'an traditions.
We will all fly with the cranes in the clouds one day.

>>21267017
>sages
sages throughout the ages*
>are also
is also*

>>21266979
So where is agency in all of this?
Does Taoism accept spiritual agency but not physical (like Neville Goddard) or is it just a spiritual form of determinism?

>>21267007
to find fundamental comfort in your life. to understand there are no right or wrong answers. to have peace

>>21267007
I'm a bit confused by the question since it attempts to communicate largely what I said in those other replies. But if you mean what's the point of realizing the Tao, profound unconditional peace and happiness is a pretty good selling point.

>>21267042
Admittedly I'm not too familiar with agency or free will and determinism specifically in regards to Taoism. I'm not even sure if Laozi or Zhuangzi wrote about it. Maybe it would be that we have individual agency in so much as we can choose to do whatever it is we want to do or think we should do, whether these choices are free or not is somewhat irrelevant as either way we would still choose just the same. We at least apparently have agency and can seem to use it. But as the Tao you could say we have absolute agency or free will, because everything that is and happens is the Tao unconditionally and freely Tao'ing. In other words there's no us, me and you, in addition to the Tao to be unfree, determined, and compelled by it. So at this level it's not that we don't have agency or free will, it's that ultimately there's no one to have it. This isn't something to be merely believed and applied though.

>>21265199
I haven't read those yet but if you'd like to do it yourself this website is good. Has many translations. Some are text, some PDF. Easy to open multiple tabs and compare. It has both the Mair translation and the Ames and Hall translation.
https://terebess.hu/english/tao/_index.html

>>21266980
>BUT CAN WE GO HIGHER?
this is my understanding: https://www.reddit.com/r/Psychonaut/comments/5jfe4r/the_second_immortal/

when I ask can we go higher I ask something like: which pond do the ducks prefer to graze? do bears live in these woods? is this water clear, safe to drink?

You see you know water is safe to drink when it is clear and water is unsafe when contaminated by decay up-stream.

The Tao Te Ching leads to understanding into the link I posted above but also the workings of man. The greater workings, the bigger gears. Why I linked UG because to see man as a vehicle for energy is true and useful and the same is true of ideas; ideas and man both equalize energy.

>>21267139
To be clear I don't mean to imply that what I said is the only teaching or wisdom in Taoism. I don't think we'd disagree much judging solely by what you said here, but I'll read the link and watch the UG video.

>>21264277

>>21264277
easily the mmk. daoism isnt very high up in terms of insight in to the fundamental nature of reality where as nagarjuna and related commentaries explore what is the most fundamental truth to all reality.

>>21266538
>the selected quotes of the buddha
how about you try again bud

>>21264635
Unironically yes, and the Tao te ching is the base upon which it rests. When this species is done away with and God moves on to another grand experiment, there will be something new to rest upon it.

>>21265199
Get the one on the left for its note apparatus. Can't speak for the Ames/Hall one. The Mitchell one is dogshit, unfortunately. picrel is referenced "Buddha from Babylon" expands on the steppe origin thesis for it.

>>21267136
This website is an awesome resource! Thank you, anon. I'm going to read through and do the comparison today and if the thread is still up I'll post my takeaways

>>21265199
Mitchell doesn't know any Chinese. His "translation" is quintessentially new age. The only worse translation is ursula leguinns. Even Crowley's is better.
Victor mair is one of the greatest sinologists of our era and his translation is informed by both the Wang bi and mawangdui recensions of the ddj. His is honestly my second favorite.

>>21267017
I just read the Penguin edition of Zhuang Zhi. I thought it was pretty good. Straight forward. The translation is a collaborative effort between three people, iirc, a poet, sino linguist, and an actual Chinese. I think it's a good starting point at least.

>>21265214
>the original pool
What even is your point? If those 'religions' (which "daoism" and "hinduism" aren't and only a quite ignorant westerner would understand them as) are reflections, why do you seem to suggest they are the opposite of what they reflect?
I sense from your post that you are a teenage-tier materialist hylic.

>>21264277
Possibly the Nei-Ye. Not necessarily higher, but a more concise guide for personal manifestation of the dao, or some such.