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20569399 No.20569399 [Reply] [Original]

>the reformation happened only because Luther and Calvin decided to become heretics for no reason

This is the usual explanation from Catholic posters here, but there was a long and rich tradition of reform movements in western Christianity that recognised the corruption and error of the Catholic Church. Luther was one among many who could see the rot in the church's theology and heirarchy which stretched back centuries. Let's have a look at some of them.

Antidicomarianites (3rd to 5th century)
—Did not believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary or a special status for her. A biblically sound position as Catholic Marian beliefs are partly founded on non-canonical apocrypha like the Proto-Gospel of James. Even the church father Tertullian held this view.

Gottschalk (7th century)
—Taught predestination, presaging John Calvin. His views were suppressed and he was confined to a monastery.

Berengar of Tours (11th century)
—French theologian, denied transubstantiation and taught the spiritual presence in the Eucharist, similar to Calvin's position.

The Bosnian Krjstiani (11th century)
—An independent church which rejected the authority of the Pope and the Orthodox Patriarchs

Waldensians (12th century to present)
—Criticised the church for its corruption and wealth, teaching apostolic poverty. Denied the unbiblical belief in purgatory, opposed the idolatrous veneration of relics, opposed infant baptism, and transubstantiation. Suppressed by the church, they survived underground until the reformation when they aligned themselves with Protestantism

Apostolic Brethren and Fraticelli (13th century)
—Opposed the worldiness and wealth of the church, teaching the virtues of poverty. Both opposed the absolute authority of the Pope and came to teach that the church had fallen from holiness.

Friends of God (14th century)
—A mystic lay movement that criticised the corruption of the church and were thus condemned as heretics

Lollards (14th to 16th centuries)
—Staryed by theologian John Wycliffe who rejected transubstantiation as philosophically incoherent, instead supporting consubstiation (the view Luther adopted), he and his movement also promoted the spread of the Bible in vernacular language, opposed indulgences, the selling of church offices, and attacked the temporal power of the church which corrupted it and turned it away from spiritual matters.

Hussites (15th-16th centuries)
—Founded by Jan Hus who was burned at the stake by the church. The Hussites were influenced by the Lollards and opposed church corruption, indulgences, selling church offices, and supported the poverty of the clergy. They were the majority Christian movement in Bohemia and fought several wars against Catholic crusades. Eventually a more Catholic-oriented faction sided with the Catholics and were at first allowed to continue, but were then suppressed in the 16th century.

>> No.20569815

Nice list of heretics, bro. On the rock of Peter, Christ founded his church, and it stands to this day. Protestantism is built on a foundation of sand.

>> No.20569824

>>20569815
Look at the list of Popes. The current Catholic church is built on a foundation of child molesters, murderers, and power-hungry tyrants. A long line of pure evil.

>> No.20569825

>>20569399
> Did not believe in… a special status for [Mary]
Getting Nestorian vibes here. Are we really going to forget that Mary said all generations would call her blessed, and that she literally gave birth to God incarnate and was given over to Jesus’ disciple and was told that this was now his mother? ‘Duude she’s just a woman!’

>> No.20569834

>>20569399
It's because of stuff like that we have now rubbish like the Mormons, the anglosphere and the Germs were a mistake, if only Marcus Aurelius had had another decade to clean up Europe.

>> No.20569836 [DELETED] 

>>20569824
> The current Catholic church is built on a foundation of child molesters, murderers, and power-hungry tyrants. A long line of pure evil.
And yet the Church still stands. Even when 80%+ of the bishops became Arians, the Church one. The gates of hell will NOT prevail.

>> No.20569843

>>20569399
The story of Jan Hus is incredibly sad

>> No.20569844 [DELETED] 

>>20569824
> The current Catholic church is built on a foundation of child molesters, murderers, and power-hungry tyrants. A long line of pure evil.
And yet the Church still stands. Even when 80%+ of the bishops became Arians, the Church one. The gates of hell will NOT prevail.

>> No.20569849

>>20569824
> The current Catholic church is built on a foundation of child molesters, murderers, and power-hungry tyrants. A long line of pure evil.
And yet the Church still stands. Even when 80%+ of the bishops became Arians, the Church won. The gates of hell will NOT prevail.

>> No.20569854

>>20569399
go to /his/

>> No.20569857

protestants, you ruined the world by creating modern capitalism.
Kys
- sincerely, the world

>> No.20569876

>>20569849
Uh yeah... The Church stands, but not the Catholic church (which has been corrupt for the vast majority of its existence)

>> No.20569899

>>20569399
Catholicism is heresy, and you’d know that if you read the damn bible.
But you don’t read.

>> No.20569931

>>20569876
Yeah, the Orthodox Church does, at the very least.

>> No.20569942

>>20569399
All christers are fundamentally wrong about everything. For starters, you are worshiping another people's volcano. He made no demonic pact with you whatsoever. In fact, he promised you as beasts of burden to his own chosen folk.

>> No.20569985
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20569985

>>20569815
>On the rock of Peter
Actually the rock on which Jesus Christ founded His church is the confession of faith in Jesus Christ as Lord. That is the rock, not the person of Peter himself.
This alone is enough to refute papism.
Also if you think I am making this up, you're wrong. This is literally the traditional understanding.

>> No.20570004

Protestant soteriology in a nutshell:
>Christ fools the Father by imputing his righteousness on a sinner, so the Father sees the sinner but not his sins therefore the Father gives a faulty veredict in His tribunal.
>Somehow this is not against God's omniscience.

>> No.20570049

>>20569985
Both interpretations are extant from an early date. You act as if it is an either / or question. Peter was the first among the apostles, undeniably, and Petrine primacy has existed in the Church since the beginning.

>> No.20570079
File: 3.01 MB, 2400x9150, Catholic - Pope, biblical basis.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google]
20570079

>>20569985
The papacy is consistent with the biblical evidence and the history of the Church.

>> No.20570090

After centuries of schism and power struggles with secular princes, by the 16th century, the church simply no longer had the power to forcefully silence its critics.

>> No.20570135

>>20570090
It was mostly because of the printing press.

>> No.20570179

Both Catholics and Protestants deserve one another. They are both heretics.

>> No.20570279

>>20570079
why is that Jesus Slavic Orthodox?
In fact around half of the portraits are obviously from Orthodox icons.

>> No.20570293

>>20570279
Byzantine Catholics exist bro

>> No.20570384

>>20569815
Not even the church itself can agree who the earliest Popes were, or who was the legitimate Pope during several disputes including the Western Schism. The church has even misread records of previous Popes, leading to the embarrassing fact that there is no Pope John XX between John XIX and XXI. The church clearly is fallible when it comes to preserving the supposed line of bishops from Saint Peter, they can't claim some unbroken chain of succession.

>> No.20570431

In this thread a bunch of people complaining about "heretics" ignoring that the reason they can freely read the bible is thanks to these very same "heretics".

>> No.20570461

>>20570179
t. protestant

>> No.20570482

>>20570079
Actual Papa is an offense to Christianity. If Papa is elected by God, then it implies that God accepts all the shit Papa is doing, including placing pagan objects inside the church. Either catholic God is retarded or this is false.

>> No.20570549

protestants want to be jews and live by the old covenant
therefore they reject Christ

>> No.20570794

I'll quote loosely a passage from a history book I read once:

"Since the Church rejected reform from inside in medieval times, it happened from outside in modern age."

>> No.20570815

>>20570079
this is like nerds arguing over spiderman storylines