/lit/ - Literature

>>20504238
WTF

>>20504238
>I can also show that her claims about being married at 6 is a lie if there is any interest.
At what age was she married?

>>20504256
The marriage contract was issued when she was 15, and the marriage was consummated when she was 18.

>>20504245
Yes, I wonder why Shias don't like her.

>>20504238
My relationship with Sunnism has ended, Shi'ism is my best friend now.

>>20504238
>I can also show that her claims about being married at 6 is a lie if there is any interest.
There's like 6 generations of difference with reporters between the time of the action and the time it was written on paper. Don't take the hadiths too seriously.

>>20504282
Sunnis have their waifu Aisha and Shias have their waifu Fatima

>>20504238
>The sixth Shi'a Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq
How do Shia cope with their imam being descended from Abu Bakr

>>20504238
Aisha is based, alayhi salaam. She is double based for making people seethe so much. Thanks for the hadith brother masha'allah.

>>20506377
Shia haven't had a reputation for their ability to cope with much.

>>20504238
When the sect of Islam I starts takes off you're all fucking done for

Islam is a despicable death cult which condones slavery.

>>20507430
What is wrong with slavery? Serious question.

>>20507471
Inhumane mayhaps?

>>20507471

>>20504238
Holy based. But tell me, if Islam is the true religion, why would God allow all this bullshit to happen? Why make some of the shahaba bad and some of them good? Why not make everyone get along and propagate Islam worldwide instead of silly internal wars?

>>20508089
Are you Christian or Atheist?

>>20508111
Mostly christian with some unorthodox views.

>>20508114
Let me then quote some 'unorthodox' Christians along with the Bible.

"The more you blaspheme the more you praise God." - Meister Eckhart

"I knew from experience that God was not offended by any blasphemy, that on the contrary He could even encourage it because He wished to evoke not only man's bright and positive side but also his darkness and ungodliness." - C.G. Jung

"Then said he unto the disciples, It is impossible but that offences will come: but woe unto him, through whom they come!" - Luke 17:1

The world of multiplicity by its essence implies wickedness along with goodness. Had God willed everything be good, He need not have created this world, because He Himself was the Good, and without creating anything, everything would have been Good. But now as the world is, the principle of compensation implies that there be as much good in the world as there is bad. If there had to be a Godly personage such as Ali, there had to be enough wickedness in the companions to compensate for his goodness. Do not be mistaken: there is an "Islam" and there is an "anti-Islam". The Islam of the majority is the latter.

>>20504268
Mashallah, Aisha's age at consummation is the age of consent in most modern countries!

>>20508365
I don't care about modern countries. My devotion to Muhammad—may God pour down all the blessings in the world upon him and his noble family—is such that if he had really married her at six, there would not have been a problem in my eyes. But putting aside Aisha's lies, and calculating her age based on the events that were surrounding it, give us this number. Whether this corresponds to modern values or not is not my problem.

>>20507495
You living for a job that pays you for your house and minimum allowed to keep surviving is nothing less of a slavery

>>20508498
Ok, why doesn't the prophet give zakat instead of enslaving them? I don't get the rationale. Isn't it one of the five pillars of Islam?

>>20508514
I'm not the guy from the other post I just added to slavery = inhumane

>>20504238
>Either she is a pathological liar or there was something seriously wrong here.
May Allah punish you for your slander upon His prophet's beloved wife.

>The Prophet used to "fondle" her when she was in her periods, even though it's forbidden in Islamic law for a husband to have sexual relations with his wife until her period passes.
Only penetration is forbidden during menstruation.

>She used to lie down in front of the Prophet between him and the Qibla when he was praying. When he were about to prostrate (before her), he would pinch or push her feet away. Then when he stood up she would stretch her feet in front of him again. It's okay for her to lie down in front of a prostrating Prophet.
A'isha was a child for most their marriage together.

>I can also show that her claims about being married at 6 is a lie if there is any interest.

It was narrated from 'Aishah that the Messenger of Allah married her when she was six years old, and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine. This hadith is from Sunan An-Nasa'i, graded Sahih by Darussalam and narrated by A'isha herself. Do not bend to the standards of the west even if you are rafidha.

>>20508514
"Slavery" in Islam was just a mechanism to introduce war prisoners to the Islamic way of life by having them live with a Muslim family for a few years and then freeing them. They were freed after a few years. The families were required to treat the "slaves" just as good as their own, providing them food, shelter, clothing, etc. If you look into it, the conditions of their lives was in no way comparable to the conditions of American slaves. Muhammad and Ali each freed hundreds if not thousands of slaves.

>>20508221
Holy fucking based

>>20508529
Absolute state of Sunni apologists. Use your mind for once.

>>20504238
I am Sunni. Anon, I just want to let you know, I fully understand that people get super uncomfortable about Aisha's age and all in our modern age, but dude, for real, you don't need to go this far in maligning her character.

The standards of that time and location were absolutely different, and that's OK. We've developed a better understanding of the human mind today which we did not have back then.
Arabia was a literal lawless tribal wasteland and life was hard. Girls had their first period super early, in fact, some Greek traveller reported that he saw 21 Year old Grandmothers in Yemen.

I know growing up, we're super hardwired and taught to revere the prophet and that everything he did was pure. Reading extremely intimate stories from his personal life must be very uncomfortable and sometimes shatters that reverence, but you need to understand that he was a man too, just like you and I.
I actually believe you when you say you wrote this out of love for the prophet, but you need to learn to love the human part of him as well. I think that's what he would have wanted from his followers.

Also
>>20505175 This. Don't put too much stock on the Hadiths. They're an important part of the Sunnah, but you need a healthy degree of skepticism to deal with them, otherwise you're going to descend into either extremes of dogma or quranism.

>>20507430
Islam doesn't condone it, otherwise you'd hear about it being noble to engage in. It's just something that was allowed and now is outlawed, which we as an Ummah did alongside many other countries in the Western World. I'm not going to downplay Slavery being a horrible thing.

>>20508529
Oh please, bro, chill out with this sectarianism.

>>20508580
Sorry, but that isn't the case for most gulf regions. Every family has at least 2-3 maids in each household and enslaved pajeets finishing the buildings... and I am pretty sure they are treated far worse than in the Prophet's times. What frightens me, even more, is that they see that as an act of help, to enslave them with such a role of "maid". Pretty sure that can be definable as slavery and engaged in the majority of Muslim countries.

>>20508557
*chops your dick off*

>>20508580
Why you don't put wait in hadith but put faith in quran, they were composed on same principles? It is all hearsay, none of it was written by Big M(pbuh).

UOOOH aisha ToT

Cringe thread where no one answers the core problem question
>>20508089

Aisha

>>20509172
It will all be clear in afterlife, anon.
That is Islamic response.

>>20508580
I was merely faithfully reporting what she has said. If there is anything "maligning" in there, it's because of her character, not because of what I say. As I said above, I don't care about modern issues, but I care about people ascribing lies to the Prophet. And what do you say to the fact that she waged war against Ali? First she says someone should kill Uthman, and then when someone does so, she says we need to wage war against Ali! As if Ali had anything to do with Uthman's death, when in fact he sent people to support him. And what do you say to the fact that, after the death of Hasan, she mounted on her mule and went in front of the Prophet's grave, and refused to allow Husayn to bury his brother along with their grandfather? These are things that Sunnis just want to ignore. If you try to move past all the Sunni conditioning, you will see this woman was evil. I do not need to malign her character when the Qur'an itself rebuked her. Read Surah al-Tahrim and then read this hadith of Umar explaining the context, where Umar himself is tired of Aisha's bullshit and curses her.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4913

"God sets forth as an example for those who disbelieve the wife of Noah and the wife of Lot. They were under two of Our righteous servants; then they betrayed them, and they availed them naught against God. And it was said unto both, 'Enter the Fire with those who enter.'" (Q. 66:10)

>>20509172
I answered the question. See the reply three posts below that. Relevant Quranic verses:

"And had God willed, He would have made you one community, but [He willed otherwise], that He might try you in that which He has given you. So vie with one another in good deeds. Unto God shall be your return all together, and He will inform you of that wherein you differ." (Q. 5:48)

"Had God willed, He would have made you one community. But He leads astray whomsoever He will and guides whomsoever He will. And you shall surely be questioned about that which you used to do." (Q. 16:93)

>>20508580
>Islam doesn't condone slavery
I'm fully willing to believe this if you can address this link:

https://islamcompass.com/islam-and-slavery/

and then this one:

https://islamcompass.com/intercourse-with-a-slave-woman-is-not-regarded-as-zina-adultery/

Thank you.

>>20504238
Hadiths are all lies fabricated by the Arabs.

>>20509430
Not Shia hadiths. Read Nahj al-Balagha and al-Kafi.

>>20509435
Does it even matter? The Quran outright forbids us to follow anything except Quran as guidance. The Hadiths are abomination created by the hypocrites of that time.

>>20508089
It's because all the history written at that time is full of corruption. Arabs are stubborn people it's literally told by the Quran.
>19:97 - "We have made it [the Quran] easy, in your own language [O Prophet], so that you may convey glad news to the righteous and give warning to a stubborn people"
>>20507430
>condones slavery
Quran is the absolute law for us Muslims, it is the Will of God and the word Muslim means the person who has submitted to God's will. Denial or defiance of any single verse in the Quran results is rebellion against God and thus that person isn't a Muslim or a hypocrite. The following verse outright abolishes slavery
>90:8 Have We not given him two eyes
>90:9 and a tongue, and a pair of lips
>90:10 and shown him the two paths
>90:11 But he has not attempted the ascent
>90:12 What will explain to you what the ascent is
>90:13 It is the freeing of a slave
If you disagree after this and still accuse us of slavery then it is solely out of your own stubbornness.
>>20509405
>muh slavery
granted that abolition of slavery wasn't an immediate action rather a gradual, this was ultimately because there were around 30% of arab population were slaves and if slavery were abolished it would result into many slaves commiting robbery and prostitution because they won't have any source of provenance after that. That's why it was gradual. After the Rashidun Caliphate was established I'm pretty sure the slave numbers were far from 30%.
>sex slavery
The following verse debunks that
>4:25 - And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess. And God knows all about your faith; each one of you is an issue of the other. Marry them, then, with their people's leave, and give them their dowers in an equitable manner - they being women who give themselves in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. And when they are married, and thereafter become guilty of immoral conduct, they shall be liable to half the penalty to which free married women are liable. This [permission to marry slave-girls applies] to those of you who fear lest they stumble into evil. But it is for your own good to persevere in patience [and to abstain from such marriages]: and God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace

>>20509506
>The Quran outright forbids us to follow anything except Quran as guidance.
This virtually never happens. The Qur'an itself tells otherwise:

"Whosoever obeys the Messenger obeys God, and as for those who turn away, We have not sent thee as their keeper." (Q. 4:80)

"O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you." (Q. 4:59)

Those in authority are, of course, the Imams. God delegated His authority to the Prophet, and the Prophet delegated his authority to Imam Ali (sermon of Ghadir), and each Imam to the next. The world shall never be without an Imam. Also:
"On the Day We shall call every people by their imam." (Q. 17:71)

>The Hadiths are abomination created by the hypocrites of that time.
Again, no. Read these books. They will allow you to appreciate the Qur'an in a deeper level. Also, in addition to those I mentioned (and maybe before them), read the Book of Sulaym to see the atrocities that followed immediately after the death of the Prophet.

>>20504238
>le child marriage and aisha
she was 19 when got married

>>20509562
>"Whosoever obeys the Messenger obeys God, and as for those who turn away, We have not sent thee as their keeper." (Q. 4:80)
>"O you who believe! Obey God and obey the Messenger and those in authority among you." (Q. 4:59)
EVERY SINGLE TIME when Qur'an repeats this verse it ALWAYS uses the word "MESSENGER", not even a single time God told us to follow Muhammad or the Prophet, God always used the word messenger - and messenger means "the one who brings God's revelation to mankind. And guess what revelation Muhammad bought to mankind? The Quran. Those verse is ultimately telling us to follow Quran.
>4:80
Literally 2 verse after this God talks about Quran
>4:81 And they say, "We do pay heed unto thee'' - but when they leave thy presence, some of them devise, in the dark of night, [beliefs] other than thou art voicing; and all the while God records what they thus devise in the dark of night. Leave them, then, alone, and place thy trust in God: for none is as worthy of trust as God
>4:82 Will they not, then, try to understand this Qur’an? Had it issued from any but God, they would surely have found in it many an inner contradiction

>>20509562
It seems that you're a Shia. Honestly I have not much knowledge about your sect, I'm a Muslim who solely submits to Quran btw. I somewhat find your take on Aisha being untrustworthy interesting. God forbids Muhammad's wives to outside in 33:33, it was to purify them. Buy Aisha broke that forbiddance multiple time by going on war. So I believe she's untrustworthy. Noah and Lot had bad waifus.

>>20509606
Anon I understand that this is a backlash against Sunni hadith. I would agree Sunni hadith is awful and for the most part fabricated. But try to be objective: see, it says "those in authority among you." "Those" is plural. Also, Messenger is literally the title of Muhammad—"I bear witness Muhammad is the Prophet of God". See also this verse:

"We have indeed sent you a messenger as a witness concerning you, just as We sent unto Pharaoh a messenger." (Q. 73:15)

Did God send the Qur'an to Pharaoh? Or did He send Moses to him? Moses is here the Messenger. Also see:

"A Messenger has indeed come unto you from among your own. Troubled is he by what you suffer, solicitous of you, kind and merciful unto the believers." (Q. 73:15)

It says a Messenger "from among your own", i.e. a human. It also describes the Messenger with human traits: troubled, solicitous, merciful. A book does not have these traits. Again, I understand why you are so inimical to hadith. I am myself deeply bothered by the slanders such as the ones I referred to in the OP. But you need to read these books I mentioned to see what you are missing. These hadiths are of an altogether different nature.

>>20508436
You have repeatedly stated she lied about her age at marriage. Why would she lie about this, and how come no one called her out on it if she were really almost a decade older than she said

>>20508620
Physically maiming your slaves is forbidden by the Shariah. As is hitting a slave, which the Prophet explicitly condemned a companion for doing. Even maiming a donkey or a camel is forbidden in the Shariah, so you can get out of here with your semitic deceits

>>20509723
>semitic deceits
Oh, i love this guy.

>>20509661
I'm not sure what Shia Hadiths are like. The only Hadith I accept are the ones that are in correlation to Quran because Quran calls itself the Furqan, a standard by which you can discern true from false.

>>20509644
The 33:33 is extremely important in Shi'ism. The nuance here is missing in the translation. See the verse is comprised of two parts. This is the first part:

"Abide in your homes and flaunt not your charms as they did flaunt them in the prior Age of Ignorance. Perform the prayer, give the alms, and obey God and His Messenger."

And this is the second part:

"God only desires to remove defilement from you, O People of the House, and to purify you completely"

What distinguishes these parts from each other? The first part uses exclusively plural female declension, but the second part uses plural male declension (which is used either where there are only males, or both males and females). Of course the Prophet's wives were all females, so the second part does not apply to them. The second part was revealed when the Propet was resting under a cloack with his daughter Fatima, Ali, Hasan, and Husayn. This is attested to in both Shia and Sunni hadith. Even Aisha, who absolutely hated Ali and his family, narrates this:
https://sunnah.com/muslim:2424

So the Ahl al-Bayt is distinct from the wives. The Ahl al-Bayt consist of his daughter Fatima, his cousin Ali, and his two grandsons.

>>20509700
I don't know. What was her motive for attacking Ali, or preventing the Prophet's grandsons to be buried next to him?

>>20509249
>I was merely faithfully reporting what she has said. If there is anything "maligning" in there, it's because of her character, not because of what I say
You are a deceptive, dishonest rafidhi without shame. You started your thread by misrepresenting multiple narrations, exemplifying the traditional rafidhi dishonesty.
>The Prophet used to receive divine revelations during intercourse with her. This is why the other wives were jealous.
False. The hadith you yourself quoted said nothing of intercourse, nor that it was the reason for the other wives being jealous. As for the Prophet ﷺ receiving revelation while in her bed, what would be the problem with that? He received revelation while walking, sitting, or riding his mounts as well.
> She used to lie down in front of the Prophet between him and the Qibla when he was praying
Again, what would be the problem? Their house was basically 3x3m, and the Prophet ﷺ spent most of the nights in prayer. There was little room for her to lie sleeping.
> The Prophet used to "fondle" her when she was in her periods
More rafidhi deceit. There is nothing wrong in touching or fondling your wife during her menses.
> The Prophet saw her two times in his dreams before marrying her. Both of the times she was being carried by an angel, and both of the times he tells the angel to "uncover her" so he could take a look.
And? His marriage to Zaynab was ordained by God, why would it be a problem that his marriage to Aishah was so as well?
>She and the Prophet were once lying down unclothed under the sheets on the bed in Aisha's house
The very hadith you quote is a proof against you. The Prophet ﷺ was wrapped in the sheet, but was dressed underneath, as proven by his removing the sheet and giving it to Aishah to cover herself better. Neither one of them were naked, and the reason for their changing covers was to not make Uthman feel awkward intruding on them.
Lastly, yes, Aishah is the mother of the believers, according to the Quran - and as you rafidah reject her, that is proof enough against you.

>>20509821
Lmaoing at this Sunni mental gymnastics. At this point it's funny.

>>20504268
I hate islam but muslims that edit their religion to fit in with western social mores are scum and should all be shot

>>20509796
>>20509832
>rafidhi misrepresents facts
>gets called out
>"i-i dont know, lmao"

>>20509836
I do not edit my religion. From the first century of Islam Aisha was known as a liar in Shi'ism. Cross checking her age with the events surrounding it based on centuries old sources shows the dates I mentioned and showed she was lying. This is similar to what I wanted to say:
>>20509576
Read a book on Islam before commenting on it, ignorant fool.

>>20509848
Your seething is delightful.

This thread is getting confusing.

>>20509867
What part confuses you?

>>20509867
It's really not that confusing. All you need to know is that a Shia Jew lied a bunch about stuff that's easy to fact check, as Shia Jews are wont to do, and when called out, he scuttled back into his Shia Jew hole

>>20509644
>>20509790
I realize I probably shouldn't use Aisha to prove my point given that I've been arguing against her. This is more Sunni sources:
https://sunnah.com/tirmidhi:3787
https://sunnah.com/muslim/44
And of course Shia sources:
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/1/4/64/1
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/10/8/60/1
As I said, it is unanimously agreed upon that the Ahl al-Bayt refers to Ali and his family. It also grammatically impossible to be referring to the wives since the declension is male.

>>20509879
Shias are the only Muslims fighting the Jews. The "pious Sunnis" are ignoring Palestine and secretly making deals with them. Yet the Shia Iran sends forces to help Palestinians despite the fact that they are Sunnis. And yet Sunnis dare call Shias jews. Shows their hypocrisy (as if it needed showing).

>>20509549
>If you disagree after this and still accuse us of slavery then it is solely out of your own stubbornness
No, it is because you failed to address the links, and that I trust them more than I trust you.

Also, I assume that verse you posted was revealed when slavery was still legal, as, according to your own post, 'the abolition of slavery wasn't immediate'. (Thus conceding that at least Islam condoned slavery at least in the past.) If this was the case, I suspect that you're misinterpreting the verse as the people of your own prophet's time who actually did have slaves would obviously disagree with your own conclusion.

>>20509929
I call you a Jew because you are a deceitful, dishonest liar against the religion, and you feel no shame lying against the closest family and companions of the Prophet ﷺ.

You lie while linking to the very proof that shows your lies. You hate the woman the Quran calls a mother of the believers. You hate the woman the Prophet ﷺ used to sleep beside at night. You hate the woman he died while resting up against. You hate the people who sacrificed their wealth and lives in the service of the religion. I care nothing for what the puppet regimes in the Middle East do or don't do, as they are all either impotent, hypocrites, or kuffar.

>>20509977
Anyone who reads the hadiths will see it's an accurate description. Seethe.

>>20509937
I came into this thread with an open mind, did the smallest amount of searching on duckduckgo, and this is the very first link I found while searching 'is it a zina to rape one's female slaves'.

https://aboutislam.net/live-session/general-fatwa-session-3/islam-allow-rape-female-slaves/
>Of course, forcing a slave girl to have sex is a kind of abuse against her, but she is still her master’s slave girl and this is his right.

This shit is way too easy to find on the internet for me to simply believe that Islam is against slavery. Condoning slavery does not actually mean Islam is not true, of course, but it does mean to me that this possibility is not worth my time to investigate.

>>20509937
>I trust them more than I trust you.
Your trust doesn't mean anything to me. I trust God more than anything in this reality. Quran (i.e God's will) never condones slavery rather abolishes it in a steady pace, that's the only thing I have to trust to be a Muslim.

>>20509993
>that's the only thing I have to trust to be a Muslim
So be it.

>>20509790
Can you provide me a source where it says Ahl al-Bayt refers to plural male declension?

>>20509991
You should keep in mind that, even if a religion is of divine origin, it *will be* misused by people who want to take advantage of it to gain power. Western academics who studied Islam since 19th century showed that the majority of "Islamic laws" date back to the Umayyad era rather than to the Prophet himself. If it is not in the Qur'an, then it's not fair to hold it against Muhammad. You should do more research.

>>20510022
>You should keep in mind that, even if a religion is of divine origin, it *will be* misused by people who want to take advantage of it to gain power.
I absolutely agree with this.

>If it is not in the Qur'an, then it's not fair to hold it against Muhammad.
That's reasonable.

>You should do more research.
Life is short, and there are many other things to research. I cannot tell if the things saying slavery was alright/temporarily alright to Allah was from a hadith or the book or something else, but if God's word or will was weak enough for such 'misunderstandings' to take place, I do not see much more reason to look into this particular belief system. In my mind, I have done enough for Islam.

>>20510035
You can ignore the morons ITT who are trying to defend Islam by rejecting half the religion. Anyone who claims to believe in the Quran while rejecting the Sunnah has no knowledge of either, and is by the consensus of the Ummah not a believer. That is the position of scholarship for over a thousand years. The Quran makes it very clear that the purpose of the Prophet ﷺ is not to function merely as a postman, delivering a book and then leaving it for us to make sense of its meanings. His purpose was to explain to us how to understand revelation, and how to live in accordance with the will of God. Surah 16 verse 44 is one proof of this.
As for the issue of slavery and Islam, it is a subject many people in the modern West struggle with, obviously given the American slave trade. If you want to read anything on the subject, professor Jonathan Brown has written a very informative book on the matter. You can also listen to a lecture he gave here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3yuZYaoaag

Aside from him, I recommend basically anything from Abdullah al Andalusi, be it on the subject of the existence of God, or morality and Shariah, or this subject of slavery: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIB7-KqmOdA

>>20510082
You sound like a Wahhabist.

>>20510015
This is the second part of the verse in Arabic:

إِنَّمَا يُرِيدُ ٱللَّهُ لِيُذْهِبَ عَنكُمُ ٱلرِّجْسَ أَهْلَ ٱلْبَيْتِ وَيُطَهِّرَكُمْ تَطْهِيرًۭا

The declension is seen in two words: عَنكُمُ, which means 'from you', and يُطَهِّرَكُمْ which means 'to purify you'. As you can see in pic related, the declension of كُم which is used in both words is second-person masculine plural. This is a screenshot of my Arabic textbook (Introduction to Koranic and Classical Arabic by Wheeler Thackston, page 39).

>>20510117
Ibn Abdul Wahhab was a mass murdering khariji. You are still a Shia Jew / literal kafir of the Prophet ﷺ and his Sunnah.

>>20510139
I'm not a Shia, I'm a true Muslim that you people label as 'Quranist'. From my perspective all those who follow the Quran (be it solely or alongside Hadith) are Muslims, except the wahhabi or salafis.

>>20510015
Sunni seething is delightful. There will always be Shias in the world and you will always be seething.
>>20510156
>except the wahhabi or salafis.
Based.

>>20510139
Sunni seething is delightful. There will always be Shias in the world and you will always be seething.
>except the wahhabi or salafis.
Based.

>>20510015
Sunni seething is delightful. There will always be Shias in the world and you will always be seething.
>>20510156
>except the wahhabi or salafis.
Based.

>>20510156
I could not tell from your post whether you were the Shia Jew who hates the family of the Prophet ﷺ, or if you were the literal kafir of the Prophet ﷺ and his Sunnah. In truth, the Shia is closer to guidance than your sect. Even the mass murdering ibn Abdul Wahhab and his spiritual followers are closer to guidance than your sect. Your beliefs are completely incoherent, and in opposition to the beliefs of all Muslims through all ages.

If you were intellectually honest, and your beliefs were coherent, you would reject the Quran for the same reasons you reject the hadith corpus. The two came to us through the same channels, and require the same level of scholarly analysis for us to derive lessons from them. But being intellectually deficient, hadith rejectors will read some translated narration about which they know no context or sanad, and reject it because it doesn't fit with their 21st century sensibilities. If they were not incoherent, they would do the same thing to the Quran.

If you genuinely consider yourself to be a Muslim, the fact that the entire Ummah - both Sunnis and Shia - consider you to be outside the fold should worry you. I recommend spending at least a few hours looking up why. If you are not familiar with his channel, I recommend the YouTuber Farid Responds, who has spoken some on the subject, and written a short book on it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeTgPiYnWHw
>>20510236
Of course the Shia Jew would agree with the kafir of the Prophet ﷺ.

>>20510248
So when it comes to the Quranists, Sunnis suddenly include Shias among the Ummah? Oh the hypocrisy.

>>20510248
I understand where the Quranist anon is coming from. He very understandably can't accept that the Prophet recommended drinking camel piss as medicine, as the "sahih" hadith below says.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:5686
There are so many crazy things in Bukhari and Muslim that no sane people can accept. Things like these are nowhere to be seen in Shia hadith.

>>20510248
>Rejecting Prophet's Sunnah
Prophet's Sunnah/way of life was the Quran (check out Surah Al-Qalam fourth verse exegesis). It's also supported by almost all the Hadith collection. It's just that Hadiths contradict Quran and thus also contradicting 68:4 that's why I said I don't follow Hadith that falls into wrong by the Furqan (i.e Quran).

>>20510035
You would be missing out on the wonderful spiritual universe of Islam. As far as Islamic revelation itself is concerned, the Qur'an itself seems to be against slavery. You know that you can criticize every religion in the same way. Dismissing Christianity because of priestly pedophilia, Judaism because of Jewish treachery, Hinduism and the cows and urines, etc etc etc. Instead, I suggest reading the Quran along with books like Nahj al Balagha to understand Islam. If you want to read the Quran, use something like The Study Quran to avoid out of context misinterpretation.

>>20510258
Shia are not kuffar by default. Sunni scholars consider them to be misguided, but not outside the fold, like the Qadiyani and the so called Quranists.

>>20510280
I wish you people were capable of reading.

As I mentioned, the problem with these so called Quranists is their intellectual dishonesty. When it comes to the hadith corpus, they reject things based on surface reading and ignorance - they read a translation of a hadith, ignorant of its context or authenticity, ignorant of scholarly commentary, and they reject it because it doesn't conform to their preconceived ideas and modern sensibilities. But when it comes to the Quran - which also has statements that, if you only read a translation without any depth, would be equally problematic as the ahadith they reject - they will suddenly start to make excuses. If they were intellectually honest and coherent, they would reject the Quran for the same reasons they reject the Sunnah.

Which is what many of them do, given enough time, because their entire methodology is baseless and incoherent.

There is no coherent method by which you can reject the Sunnah while keeping the Quran. It came through the same channels. It has been studied and commented on by the same scholars. It is one package, and you can not pick and chose which you prefer.

The hadith you mentioned has an explanation, though I am not sure if I can be bothered to go into it if everyone in this thread is as pinheaded as the three of you I have spoken to.

>>20510313
>Prophet's Sunnah/way of life was the Quran (check out Surah Al-Qalam fourth verse exegesis).
A meaningless statement if you reject the Sunnah. If you have come to the conclusion that you reject the hadith corpus as a whole, you are clearly not qualified to decide which hadiths contradict the Quran or not. You must be profoundly ignorant and arrogant beyond measure to think so. In Islam, we respect scholarship. The entire body of Muslims has, for 1400 years, respected the Sunnah and the ahadith. Rejecting them can only be justified by two methods:
>1: you believe they are not preserved (which brings into doubt the preservation of the Quran, because it came through the same channels),
or
>2: you believe only what makes sense to you, and reject anything you don't like or understand (which is a method that will inevitably lead to the rejection of the Quran, as there will always be things in it we do not understand, think makes sense, or even like).
Again, I recommend you watch the videos by Farid on the subject of hadith rejection, if you consider yourself to be Muslim and feel uneasy about the fact that the Ummah does not. Which you should.

>>20510248
I don't care about what you say about me or my belief. I won't trust anything as long as it's coming from a man created out of blood, bones and flesh. I trust solely the words of God because He is the most Trustworthy. These are the verses that helped me overcome the endless obstacles made by the hadith literature.
>In which hadith then, after this [Qur'an], will they believe? - 77:50
>These are God's revelations, which We recite to you in all truth. But if they deny God and His revelations, in what hadith will they believe? - 45:6
>In what hadith after this [Quran] will they then believe? - 7:185
77:50 is from Surah Mursalat, where God repeats the verse "Woe on that Day to the deniers!" 9 times, will you then go and still tell me to believe in Hadith when God warned me 9 times not to deny His decree in 77:50? I'm sorry but after learning the purpose of the entire Mursalat Surah I can't go back believing in Hadith again. That will include me among the deniers.

>>20510356
I myself am against hadith rejection and use any opportunity I get to tell Quranists why I think hadith rejection is not Quranically defensible (as I did with this anon above). I do read commentaries on hadith collections that are worth reading (eg Nahj al-Balagha and al-Kafi. There is no explanation for the hadith I cited above other than drinking camel piss. Some sal*afi guy was once trying to argue camel piss has medicinal benefits. Sunni hadiths have a lot of atrocious things in them. Someone has done the work of cataloging them in the link below. It's truly a sight to behold.
https://web.archive.org/web/20200606133250/pastebin.com/2CJrErSe
You should consider the possibility that you might be wrong about Sunnism.

>>20510386
I'm the Shia guy. I still suggest looking into Shia hadith. Start with this collection of Imam Ali's sermons.
https://www.al-islam.org/nahjul-balagha-part-1-sermons

>>20510386
If you had understood anything of what I said - and my argument has been very simple, straight forward, and apparently irrefutable - you would see why this post makes no sense. But I can see that you are genuine, and I respect that. Forgive me for being harsh before.
I have personally struggled with faith in my life, and I feel compassion for people like you who seem to be sincere in your search for closeness with Allah. If you want to keep talking about this issue - and I recommend it, because your position is according to the vast majority of Muslims scholarship actually a form of disbelief - then I can come back in an hour and a half. I have to head home now. Let me know if you are open to chat more then.

Bukhari-5134:

>that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years.

Bukhari 5158:

>The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years

>>20510442
I just hope Jesus comes back and unifies this community that's dividing into tons of sects :|
>>20510429
And you shouldn't antagonize Aisha, God forbids us to do guesswork in 49:12 just wait for the resurrection day, I too am waiting.

>>20510248
>require the same level of scholarly analysis to derive lessons from them
This is why Islam is an absolute joke to me.

>>20510668
lol, if it was a joke there wouldn't be complicated symmetries behind quran.

>>20504238
how can God be understood by anyone so completely governed by biological urges?

islam is sickeningly materialistic

>>20511306
The point is this is all lies about Muhammad. Read the last paragraphs carefully.

>>20510582
It is not guesswork. See:

"And whenever tidings come unto them, whether of security or fear, they spread it about, whereas had they referred it to the Messenger and to those in authority among them, those of them whose task it is to investigate would have known it. Were it not for God’s Bounty toward you, and His Mercy, you would surely have followed Satan, save a few." (Q. 4:83)

Also Aisha's lies actively hurt Islam given that the first thing Islamophobes say is "muh child marriage." But her lies go deeper than that if you actually read the literature.

>>20507430
There's nothing morally wrong about slavery. In fact slavery is a fact of human life. You are not any less of a slave than, for example, most Roman slaves were even and especially if you are white collar. Sure slavery has changed its nature a bit and how it is conducted but it's still present. And even if you didn't have earthly masters you will still have a master in a more transcendental sense. There's no way to escape slavery. You are not God.
>>20509723
Arabs are Semites too.

>>20504238
>Mohammad's favorite wife
>Optimal breeding age
>Cucks Mohammad and gets away with it
>Memorizes the Quran and is source of many hadith
>Led an army against the worst Rashidun caliph
>Makes Shia and Westerners seethe
Why is Aisha so based?

>>20511751
How is there 'nothing morally wrong' with slavery? Even if it truly were 'just a fact of life' and 'cannot be escaped', these things do not justify it.

>>20509549
Bullshit. Slavery is still very much alive and well in the Middle East and North Africa. They don't give a fuck if it's officially outlawed, slavers will go into the desert to sell and auction off slaves.

>>20511751
>Arabs are Semites too.
yet no one calls hatred towards arabs antisemitism

>>20504238
>I can also show that her claims about being married at 6 is a lie if there is any interest.
At what age was she married?

>>20511952
Cool it with the anti semitic remarks

>>20511988
She was married in her teenage years. Shias kept calling her a whore and making fun of her (breastfeeding other men) so Sunnis lowered her age to make her "pure"

>>20511988
According to the totally not taqiyyah practicing shia itt, her age was obviously 18 - anything below that would of course be completely unheard of

>>20512014
then why are there shittons of hadith going back to Aisha herself that say otherwise

>>20504238
>"is a very modest person"
You mean poor?

>>20511995
Provide your evidence please. This page says otherwise and I'm sure I can easily find others like it. (I'm a non-muslim, btw)

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aisha%27s_Age
>married to Muhammad at the age of 6 or 7, and the marriage was consummated by Muhammad, then 53, at the age of 9 or 10 according to numerous sahih hadiths

>>20508529
>>She used to lie down in front of the Prophet between him and the Qibla when he was praying. When he were about to prostrate (before her), he would pinch or push her feet away. Then when he stood up she would stretch her feet in front of him again. It's okay for her to lie down in front of a prostrating Prophet.
>A'isha was a child for most their marriage together.
This is actually amusing and human.
I can totally see her being silly due to her age.

>>20508580
Honestly, I don't see the problem with Muhammad. He was really just the product of his times and a lot of the controversial issues surrounding him are really overblown. So I don't think he was an inherently bad person. Before he, according to Islam, started receiving divine revelation, he was just another Arab. It was when he started preaching Islam that we saw a major reform take place in the traditions of the backward, pagan Arab people. All of the descriptions of Muhammad receiving revelation, as well as the Qur'an itself, don't give me the idea that Allah is some weirdo pedo-tolerating, war-encouraging god or anything. Far from it, actually. I, for one, respect all three Abrahamic religions, and no matter where my beliefs end up taking me in the end, I doubt I will ever lose my respect for all three, their prophets, and their beliefs.

>>20512022
Because Aisha is a pathological liar. The point of the whole thread.

>>20510245
>There will always be Shias in the world
Ok and? Didn't the Prophet (pbuh) say that there would be sects among the ummah, and that you should follow the majority, i.e. Sunnism, because the ummah would never agree on falsehood?
He (pbuh) instantly refuted Quranists, Shias, Ahmaddiyas all in one fell swoop.

>>20512298
>Didn't the Prophet (pbuh) say
No he didn't. Sunni fabrication to keep the cattle under caliphal control.

>>20511793
>>Cucks Mohammad and gets away with it
Wtf?? Is it true?

>>20504238
Can't blame him though, legal cunny would do great things to a man's mind.

>>20508529
>>20508580
Dude shut up stop vicariously denying Mahomet his cunny

>>20512094
He was a very modest person. Uthman was one of the richest shahaba.

>>20511850
You would have to tell me what is it that is morally wrong in slavery. And why is it so. No I'm not an Americanist and le freedumbs larp is very cringe. Slavery has become a buzzword really.
>>20511952
That's the degeneration of language for you.

What is the shia position on circumsicion? If I were to convert, would I need to be circumsized (i dont want to)? How would you convince me otherwise?

>>20513527
Circumcision is obligatory in Shi'ism in the sense that you would be held accountable for it in the Hereafter, but not in the sense that not getting circumcized would prevent you from converting. So if you really don't want to, you can convert and not do it. If you choose to do it, do it to as a sign of submission to God.

>>20504238
I thank Allah everyday I'm not a brain-dead shia.

>>20512626
>You would have to tell me what is it that is morally wrong in slavery. And why is it so.
'Slavery is wrong because my God disagrees with your God' is probably the best that can come out of this particular conversation if our sense of morality is so out of alignment that this sort of challenge would be made in the first place. As I assume your understanding of 'good' and 'evil' are simply what Islam says God's positions are, it would perhaps be more productive to begin talking about if the Quran itself is true, unfortunately. Am I correct in this?

>>20514280
Who is your God? If you are speaking of the Biblical God, I have to say that He also seems to think slavery isn't inherently immoral. Slavery is present all through the Book, both old and new Testament. It was present in the society of the ancient Hebrews who, after all, recieved their laws from God, and in the New Testament all we hear is for master to treat their slaves well and the slaves to submit to their masters. The prohibition of slavery is Christian, it comes from a later promulgation from the Church prohibiting the owning of Christian slaves, because they thought, reasonably so in my opinion, that it was unbecoming for one Christian to own another. This isn't to say that slavery should be embraced today or anything of the like, simply that it's not inherently wrong.

>>20514352
>Who is your God?
I am formerly Christian but have become irreligious and after researching the subject of Near-Death-Experiences, and have come to primarily believe what those who have had them generally 'reveal' after their 'return'. I also have my belief in reincarnation (NDEs convinced me of reincarnation,) solidified by research done by a man named Ian Stevenson into children's reported 'past life' memories. All this means simply that I believe in an afterlife, I believe in a God, I do not believe in hell, I believe in reincarnation, I believe all of our lives here have a purpose, and I believe that purpose is of an educational matter. This is not faith. I am not that willing to go over the truthfulness of my beliefs at this time, (think what you will on that.)

Concerning morality, I have come to the point that the only objective morality is simply the positions of the Creator. My arguments against slavery hinge on this coming from the position of the belief in a benevolent God, all trying to explain that slavery is wrong ultimately because of the suffering it obviously entails.

>>20514419
Not that anon, but what do you make of the Hindu caste system which bases itself on reincarnation and gnosis? What if the purpose of a slave is to virtuously serve his master and by doing this move up in the hierarchial ladder until he reaches the highest level? It's interesting that the religion which most resembles your views also had the most rigid structure of 'slavery'.

>>20514419
>Concerning morality, I have come to the point that the only objective morality is simply the positions of the Creator. My arguments against slavery hinge on this coming from the position of the belief in a benevolent God, all trying to explain that slavery is wrong ultimately because of the suffering it obviously entails.
I'm having trouble making out this sentence. You believe in divine command theory, alright. So the question here is of course: how do you know the positions of the Creator? You then say "hinge on this coming from the position of the belief in a benevolent God". The best I can make this out as is "my argument hinges on the belief in what the position of a benevolent God would have", because, "slavery is wrong ultimately because of the suffering it obviously entails." So you first propose the divine command theory, and then you appeal to an independent source of morality which exists outside of the arbitrary decisions of God, but which God, being inherently benevolent, adheares to. This directly contradicts what you say before. It seems slavery is not an issue just because God says so, but independent of that, because it causes suffering.

>>20514493
>what do you make of the Hindu caste system which bases itself on reincarnation and gnosis?
I disapprove of the caste system. I believe in what that other poster would describe as 'le freedumbs'.

>What if the purpose of a slave is to virtuously serve his master and by doing this move up in the hierarchial ladder until he reaches the highest level?
That depends on the purpose of having such purposes. I am open to the idea of people willingly incarnating into hellish conditions because of the more intense life lessons learned in them, and slavery certainly sounds hellish to me. However, I do not want slavery in my land, or in any land.

>It's interesting that the religion which most resembles your views also had the most rigid structure of 'slavery'.
I would be very surprised to discover that the caste system originated from what my own beliefs come from. I don't know much about the caste system's origin at all, however.

>>20514550
>It seems slavery is not an issue just because God says so, but independent of that, because it causes suffering.
This is an interesting idea to me and I'm pleased you brought it to my attention.

>>20514599
What if 'incarnating into hellish conditions' is not a choice one voluntarily makes, but is the divine administration of justice based on the kind of life one has lived. Given that you are interested in reincarnation, NDEs, and the issue of slavery, I assume you are familiar with Plato's discussion of these very same themes in the Republic? He argues for this view I just presented.

Nuke all Mudslimes.

>>20514599
>>20514614
>I assume you are familiar with Plato's discussion of these very same themes in the Republic? He argues for this view I just presented.
This. And, from what I can recall, in the end of The Republic he even tells that it's the person who picks up her life on this Earth, by their own volition/foolishness.

>>20514614
>What if 'incarnating into hellish conditions' is not a choice one voluntarily makes, but is the divine administration of justice based on the kind of life one has lived.
I'm very open to the idea of karma if that is what you're describing.

>I assume you are familiar with Plato's discussion of these very same themes in the Republic?
That is very much not the case.

>>20514666
Start with the Greeks.

>>20514673
I should have seen this remark coming.

How does the Shia respond to the claim that Aisha was the prophets most beloved wife? Is there any truth to it? How is the prophet's relationship with Aisha regarded in Shia tradition? Did Fatima and Aisha dislike each other? What does Imam Ali has to say about Aisha?

>>20515398
The claim that Aisha was his favorite wife is a lie from Aisha herself. His favorite wife was Khadija—God's greetings upon her—his first wife and the mother of Fatima. This is proved by the fact that she was his only wife that during their marriage with her he never married any other woman. Also even after her death, Aisha was intensely jealous of her, saying that she was constantly on his mind even though she had been dead for years. Hadiths where Aisha says so:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6004
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3821
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:3818
https://sunnah.com/muslim/44/107-111
https://sunnah.com/muslim:2435b

Also don't forget Surat al-Tahrim was revealed because Aisha was making life hell for him, constantly arguing with him and conspiring against the other wives. See this hadith of Umar:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:4913

>>20515398
Also see this:
https://en.wikishia.net/view/Aisha

>>20515518
pajeet

>>20515632
Iranian :)

>>20515644
Based. What do you think will happen if the theocracy in Iran falls apart? Do you even think thats a possibility? Is it true that Iran is becoming more atheist? When will your nukes be ready? Will you use it to bomb Isr*el?

>>20515669
I am of the mind that the Imams taught us Shias to be apolitical until the coming of the Twelfth Imam, so I don't concern myself with politics. But to answer your questions, I think the possibility of the theocracy falling apart during the near future is low. America and Israel have been desperately trying for centuries now without avail. Yes, sadly a portion of the population is getting westernized, but most people still seem religious to varying degrees. The government officials and the supreme leader himself have repeatedly said they will not use nuclear energy to make nukes, but Israel in particular continues to be terrified of the possibility.

>>20515719
When will the Twelfth Imam come? What does occultation actually mean? Can you explain a bit on Shia Eschatology?

>>20509549
Fucking infinite cope. Even if we gave you undeniable proof. you would find some way to rationalize it and shout alhumdullilah. Stay away from us, the only reason you fuckwit inbred retards ever abolished slaver was because you had the colonial powers breathing down your neck. Took you mor than a fucking millenia to abolish slavery and it just coincides with your dicking by europe. It pisses me the fuck off you think that boko haram, the mass slaugher under the name of allah. The slaughter of hindus, the slavery of every known human race, the shooting cannons at statues of buddha and trying to destroy the great pyramid of giza.

You are not a real muslim. Those are examples of real muslims.

Your children will leave the faith because you are not a real muslim and you interperet the quran and the hadiths in so that it perfectly alligns with your western values you grew up with. Aisha was not 18, you cannot see paintings. Animations count as paintings, you cannot smoke hashish, you cannot enjoy music, hopefully the alcohol, sex "servants", and beautiful little boys in the afterlife was worth it ahmed

>>20515803
The matter is entirely in God's hands. It's impossible to put a time on it. To understand the Occultation we need to understand Muhammad's Prophethood first. Since he was the Seal of the Prophets, he was tasked with bringing the last message of God, the final Book and the final Law, and to announce the coming of the Savior. The messianic message in his prophecies was so strong that companions seem to have thought the Mahdi's coming is imminent (some even supposed that the Mahdi will be Imam Ali). Muhammad is also called the Prophet of the End Times. This means his mission as the last Prophet signifies a new cycle in human history: We *are* currently in the End Times. According to our Imams, with the death of the Prophet the age of calamities and trials begins. This will only get worse, and that a time will come that no Imam will be in sight. Believers are going to be tested harshly until only very few of them—the true Shias—will remain faithful to him. At height of oppression and decadence, when people have forgotten any regards for God or anything sacred, the Imam along with his closest comrade, Jesus, will return to wipe the earth of evil once and for all, and to establish God's religion again. They will avenge the martyrdom of Imam Husayn on the world, and every wrong that has been done by any oppressor to any innocent.

"And We have indeed written in the Psalms, after the Reminder, that My righteous servants shall inherit the earth. Truly in this is a proclamation for a worshipful people." (Q. 21:105-106)

This will mark the golden age that precedes the day of judgment.

>O you who have believed, do not enter the houses of the Prophet except when you are permitted for a meal, without awaiting its readiness. But when you are invited, then enter; and when you have eaten, disperse without seeking to remain for conversation. Indeed, that [behavior] was troubling the Prophet, and he is shy of [dismissing] you. But Allāh is not shy of the truth. And when you ask [his wives] for something, ask them from behind a partition. That is purer for your hearts and their hearts. And it is not [conceivable or lawful] for you to harm the Messenger of Allāh or to marry his wives after him, ever. Indeed, that would be in the sight of Allāh an enormity.

Quran 33:53

>>20516467
I can relate. Where do you think you are?
Austists abound in this place.

>>20516505
*autists

Hmm, its funny reading all this sunni hadith, one gets the impression of the prophet Muhammad being an ooga booga perverted warlord. While the shia ones seem to portray him as a truly holy man. Its giving me some sort of an epiphany...

>>20512273
A rare sensible post on /lit/

>>20516717
What's the epiphany?

>>20516717
Who are you trying to fool? Muhammad is a tacked on afterthought in shia islam

>>20512537
Perhaps. She disappeared on the campaign trail and turned up a day later accompanied by a young soldier. It was suspicious enough that people like Ali thought she had an affair, so Allah was consulted on the matter. Allah said she was innocent. While the truth of the matter is lost to history, its entertaining to think she lived the rest of her life knowing full well that Muhammad was making shit up.

>>20516717
An epiphany that Shia hadiths were reactionary fabrications compiled 100s of years after Sunni collections? Muhammad was objectively a pervert warlord, he slept with his 12 wives and constantly waged war, which the Sunni hadith accurately portrays.

Islam is ruined by the blatantly opportunistic Quran verses, and embarrassingly bad "authentic hadith" on which you must base your cult of personality of Muhammad. Islam has a lot that is admirable about it, but for those reasons I'm out. The fact that Islam immediately split into factions after Muhammad died, and the supposed character of Aisha, and the way Muhammad's family were treated are all major red flags for a supposedly divinely inspired religion, and the last revelation at that.

>>20517402
>and the supposed character of Aisha
?

>>20517453
That she may have cheated on Muhammad, that she was jealous of Khadija/other wives, that she fought Ali and his family.

Umar is another questionable figure, with hadiths painting an ugly picture of how he harassed Muhammad's wives after which Muhammad receives a revelation for the hijab, that he punched Muhammad's pregnant daughter

>>20509172
ALLAH KNOWS BEST YOU INFIDEL

>>20517561
That doesn't answer his question.

>>20516717
Based.
>>20517166
Is that why the earliest Sunni sources tell us that according to the Prophet there will be 12 Imams?
>>20517303
> the Sunni hadith accurately portrays
Do you have any evidence that the Sunni depiction of the Prophet is in anyway truthful? Western historians of Islam for the most part tell us that the historical Muhammad is lost, that it is impossible to reconstruct Muhammad's life rigorously and in a critical fashion using hadith (see the 'modern scholarship' section in the link below). How then in your Islam hatred can you justify that Sunni hadith is authentic?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Muhammad
>>20517402
>>20517503
So you basically with the Shia narrative, and yet think it's redflag? Sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with Shia hadith, which is of an entirely different character than Sunni sahihs.

>>20508221
speak moar brother

>>20518062
Who are some of the best contemporary Shiite scholar other than Sayyed Hossein Nasr? Are you familiar with Professor Quraish Shihab of Indonesia? He has been accused of being a Shiite in taqqiya. What do you think? Also what do you know about Shiism in Indonesia in general?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Quraish_Shihab

>>20518604
Ja'far Sobhani is a prominent Grand Ayatollah some of whose works are available in translation. There is also Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi. If you don't mind contemporary scholars who have passed away, Muhammad Husayn Tabatabai and Morteza Motahhari are also great. Among the Orientalists, Henry Corbin did a lot of good work on Shia Islam, reportedly even converted to Shi'ism at some point. I might make a chart for Shi'ism soon.

Honestly I don't know much about Shi'ism in Indonesia. I've only heard that Shias in Indonesia and Malaysia are a very small minority who are persecuted by the Sunni majority. I'm not familiar with Professor Shihab so I don't know if he is Shia or not, but a good indication of a Shia would be if he focuses a lot on the family of the Prophet and has pro-Alid views. If he does, he might be Shia.

>>20508557
This might be the biggest historical cope I have ever read on here

>>20518062
>So you basically with the Shia narrative, and yet think it's redflag? Sounds like you need to familiarize yourself with Shia hadith, which is of an entirely different character than Sunni sahihs.

Yes because Shi'ism entails believing that God's revelation was corrupted yet again, going against the whole point of Islam. Ali Amir Moezzi said he believes the Quran was edited down from a larger Quran.

>>20519451
It's true that Amir-Moezzi holds that view, but it's not the orthodox Shia position (Amir-Moezzi is the only living scholar I know of who holds this view). At any rate it is true that some early Shias believed so. This isn't a problem since in Shi'ism the Imam himself is the Qur'an. When you have access to the teachings of the Imams, and read the Qur'an with reference to their teachings, you can understand the true message of the Qur’an without any issue. The Imams also denied that there is anything in the Qur'an that has not come from God. The companions of the Imams also have written books providing us some of the suppressed parts.

>>20519451
It's important to have this point in mind. In Shi'ism the Imam is said to be the Speaking Qur'an, in a similar fashion that in Christianity Jesus is the Logos. So the recorded sayings of the Imams have just as much significance for Shias that the Gospels have for Christians.

>>20504238

My issue with the Shia version is the religious position that the imamah has taken. Although I can accept that Imam Ali was most fit, I don't see how this makes the idea of the imamah valid in light of the quran. It seems like an exageration that has entered islam due to the oppression early on. Kind of like a reaction to the praise of the sahaba.

This might explain why the imams have been given some weird attributes in fabricated hadith.

I need to know more about this, but the islam I see in forums are cults of personalities.

Any input?

>>20520355
I recommend reading chapters 1 and 5 of this dissertation. In my opinion it gives an airtight Quranic argument in support of Imamah.
https://dash.harvard.edu/bitstream/handle/1/37365111/ANDANI-DISSERTATION-2020.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y

Also, there are a lot of hadiths in Sunni books that support Imamah. Chief among them is this hadith in Bukhari and Muslim where the Prophet tells us about the twelve Imams:
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:7222
https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821a
https://sunnah.com/muslim:1821b

>>20520464
I'll read it. I'm familiar with the evidences provided, but my issue is that I don't need a dissertation to prove salat is wajib(obligatory for non arab speakers), but for Imamah I need it. If it is part of the deen, I would have never guessed it the first time I read the quran. Yet monotheism, prayer etc was obvious even as a kid.

Can you not envision the possibility that the shia account of history is mostly valid, but the religious aspects proposed sere attached to the religion over time? I have yet to see someone arguying for such an idea, yet it seems plausible that the truth is neither in the sunni or the shia camp, but rather inbetween.

Also, the contradictions of the Sunnis in relation to khilafa makes you wonder. Shias are denounced for rejecting the first khalifs, yet some companions wage war against Ali and that doesn't make them get the label of Rafidah. They say khilafa is not a religious issue yet make takfir on shias for not believing their version of events. They say Shura, yet no shura was used when Omar became khalif.Every Friday they Preach the thaqalain hadith that is weak instead of the on in sahih muslim that mentions ahlul bayt.

>shia

death to all you sand niggers in here. cursed be the memory of your pedophile prophet muhammad. so pathetic, you worship a 1400 year old schizo illiterate pedo who died shitting himself.

bump

>>20520832
umad

Not memeing, but how is sex viewed in shiism? How many women can you engage in a lifetime (within islamic law, married or otherwise)? Is sex good or bad? Is there a deeper dimension to sex? Perhaps a sort of tantric meaning to it, if that makes sense. I read that some of the Imams had hundreds of wives (i might be wrong). Why is this?

>>20522678
Sensuality in Islam in general is not seen as morally good or bad in itself, but in terms of marriage many Muslims have a very Jewish approach to it, there are even some scholars who agree with the Jewish law that allows women to divorce men who can't get it up. But I'm not talking about that specifically, sensuality in Christian thought is seen through the lens of individual passions, while in Islam (especially among mystics) it's framed as something that symbolically destroys the boundaries of the ego and leads to a more pure love of God's creation. Generally celibacy is discouraged in Islam.

>>20518062
The Western historians who don't think its possible to reconstruct some semblance of the historical Muhammad are the ones who reject hadith outright. Thats an extreme position, motivated by loonies like Crone, and not what believers would want to be arguing. English-language secular hadith study simply hasn't been developed enough to assess the evidence yet.

>>20520355
That is how most people feel about Shia Islam. The initial political dispute over Ali was valid and his family was certainly treated poorly. But that doesn't mean that they had to invent an entirely different religion based on this conflict. The theology of Shia Islam is so obviously created after the fact.

I’m not gonna comment on anything but this.

>>20508580
> The standards of that time and location were absolutely different, and that's OK. We've developed a better understanding of the human mind today which we did not have back then.

This is simply not a statement that is holdable to the true Muslim. Muhammad is the image of ideal morality for all men in Islam, he is a diamond where men are dull stones. Proof he is to be your model.

you have an excellent model in the messenger of allah, for all who put their hope in allah and the last day and remember allah much. (surat al-ahzab: 21)

I could find all manner of Hadith of good quality which would further affirm he is to be your model, but what more do you want than the Quran itself telling you, he is your role model? I will reaffirm it with the Uli al-Amr Verse.

“ O ye who believe! Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. If ye differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if ye do believe in Allah and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination.”

How will you claim this man from God, the very voice of God; his great prophet, and that God has said he is to be our role model and to obey him in all things, and then go on to say we know more than him about what is moral, what is good, that it was a limited time as if allah was bound in time, as if allah was changing and could not tell Muhammad wrong from right, that he’d be shy to reveal his ways of good and evil to man, shy to man.

No rather, you must either accept it is good what Muhammad did, argue Muhammad didn’t do as he did, or disagree with him as a model for morality. You do not get to have a room-temperature take.

>>20510386
>I won't trust anything as long as it's coming from a man created out of blood, bones and flesh.
Do you reject the Prophet (PBUH) then? Since he too is of blood and flesh.

What about Shii'ism itself? There are many branches within it.

>>20520770
I could give you a short look into the Quranic model of Imamate as well. The archetypal Imamate in the Quran is demonstrated in this verse:

"And [remember] when his Lord tried Abraham with [certain] words, and he fulfilled them. He said, 'I am making you an imam for mankind.' He said, 'And of my progeny?' He said, 'My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.'" (Q. 2:124)

This is when Abraham progressed from being only a prophet (nabi) to being both a Prophet and Imam (in Shia theology Ulul Azm Prophets are both). He asks God if his Imamate continues to his progeny. God answers, 'not to the wrongdoers', meaning it will be given to those of his progeny that are not wrongdoers. Then there is this verse:

"Or do they envy men on account of what God has given them of His Bounty? We gave the House of Abraham the Book and Wisdom, and We granted them a mighty sovereignty" (Q. 4:54)

This is seen as the Quranic definition of Imamate: inheriting the Book of the Prophet (or if he is Ulul Azm, receiving a new book), receiving God-given wisdom and sovereignty over other creation. Now when you consider that the Prophet and Ali both were descendant of Abraham (see the link below), and thus belong to the House of Abraham; and furthermore when you consider that the Prophet, along with Fatima, Imam Ali, Imam Hasan and Imam Husayn were purified in 33:33, it becomes evident that Ali and his children also have a share in the things described in 4:54.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Family_tree_of_Muhammad

Honestly I can't envision the religious aspect of Imamate not to be of divine origin. Even the things you think are 'weird' all have strong esoteric import. Thank you for pointing out the Sunni hypocrisy. Also they revere all the Sahaba to no end but in their own books the Prophet says some of the Sahaba became apostates and innovated and will go to hell for it.
https://sunnah.com/bukhari:6585

>>20507430
I find it to be a quaint death cult which condones slavery.
As we know from the Greeks (please read them before posting), there are just some men and tribes that are best served as slaves.
Christians in Christiandom and Mohammedans in Mohammedom is preferable than atheists in both.

>>20522678
First I need to debunk the myth of 'pleasure marriage' that Sunnis have built around mut'ah in Shi'ism (temporary marriage). It means a marriage at the start of which a terminating time has been set, so it's temporary. It works like a long term relationship and is practiced only in cases where permanent marriage is not possible. Sacred Law in Shi'ism says that you can have up to four permanent wives and there is no limit on how many temporary wives you can have. Having said that, in practice it's exceedingly rare to see someone with than one wife. None of the Imams had "hundreds of wives". Imam Ali famously didn't marry anyone else when Fatima was alive. The other Imams had only up to 4 wives, some of them even only one.

Shi'ism sees sexuality within the bounds of marriage (permanent or temporary) as a very positive and beneficial thing for the believer. In fact, it is the one of the few pleasures of the material world that is seen as worthwhile. The Imams narrate from Prophet that he said "I do not love anything from your world except women and perfume." Imam Ja'far calls the love for women to be 'the manner of the Prophets' and says that love for women increases one's faith. Note that the Imams didn't see a contradiction between living an ascetic life and enjoying the gifts of sexuality with one's wife.
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/1/6
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/1/1
https://thaqalayn.net/hadith/5/3/1/2

>>20522728
It's not an extreme position. Even a Shia historian like Amir-Moezzi agrees with them that the historical Muhammad is lost. Unfortunately all early sirah literature is written by state-sponsored Sunni historians, so even in Shi'ism there is a distrust about many things Sunnis want to have us believe about him.

>>20522773
>I’m not gonna comment on anything but this.
Please do comment on other things! As I hope you know, Shi'ism is the esoteric side of Islam. It is also the origin of Sufism. I would be very interested to know what a master esotericist like you would have to say about esoteric Shi'ism. I remember that you once commented positively on the Shia hadith book, al-Kafi. If you want to read more about Shi'i esotericism, I would recommend "What is Shi'i Islam" and "The Divine Guide in Early Shi'ism" by Mohammad Ali Amir-Moezzi.

>>20508580
If your actually Muslim then your a retard. Are you completely unread? Just one of the more secular Muslims that don’t care much for his faith or what?
>>20522773 is right what you say doesn’t make any sense at all. The Quran says Muhammad is perfect that’s final. You can argue that the Hadith is fake or something but what your arguing here is absurd

>>20522859
There is Zaidism in Yemen, which is basically a hyper-political Jihadism with Mu'tazili theology. There is also Agha Khani Ismailism which is very liberal and has abandoned the Sharia and explicitly synthesized its theology with neoplatonism. These are the two major branches of Shi'ism other than Twelverism.

>>20523220
What about Suleimani, Dawoodi, and Alavi Ismailism?

>>20508580
>anime poster
>retarded take
I'm not surprised. I reckon you are somewhere in the 16-22 age, and you are too westernized culturally and religiously. Which is an absolute shame to skewer your religion to appeal to secular thinking, and basing a timeless religion on modern day perspective.

>>20523357
From what I understand there are few of them compared to the Agha Khanis, but they also come from the same roots, so they also probably don't place importance on the Sharia and are neoplatonist. Also see this post I made about some differences between Ismailism and Twelverism a few days ago: >>20476288

>>20523377
Interesting read, you appear to be very knowledgable, mashallah. But I am more interested in the Suleimani, Dawoodi, and Alavi rather than the Agha Khani.

>>20523094
Based. Incels btfo.

>>20509836
>I hate islam but muslims [...] should all be shot
Why the but?

>>20522994
Why do you assume Ibrahim's progeny include the imams, since the word imam in the quran does not denote a position like that of rasool or nabi. It has been used in other places to mean other things. The same cannot be said about the words nabi or rasool. Again, why is something so fundamental require analysis to believe in it. It is like the verse that refers to those who give charity while they bow down in prayer. Hadith says it refers to Ali, why then extend this to the 11 imams? There's always that leap of faith when it comes to the imamah that I don't need to engage in to understand monitheism, prayer, zakat, etc.

There's also the fundamental issue with our Prophet being the seal. Imamah practically breaks the finality. I don't see how it doesn't. What difference is there then between say prophet Jonas and Ali, to a shia? And if you go with the idea that the Imam is higher in position say than prophets, then how is Muhammad the seal, that statement means nothing anymore.>

>20522769
No, most people don't. They see that Ali was not denied his rights and that Abu Bakr wa .more desrving and that nothing happened to the family of the prophet that is worth talking about. Proof is Fatimah Ali Hassan and Hussein are never mentioned. Like they say, Sunnis behave as if Hussein and Hassan never grew up.

>>20524522
>Why do you assume Ibrahim's progeny include the imams
This question can be interpreted in two ways (I don't know which one is the one you meant). (i) How do I know children of Abraham and their progeny became Imams. This is illustrated by the fact that 4:54 confirms the House of Abraham are given the Book, Wisdom, and Sovereignty. Furthermore these verses are important:

"And remember Our servants Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, possessed of strength and sight. Truly We purified them with that which is pure—remembrance of the Abode. And truly in Our Sight they are among the chosen, the elect." (Q. 38:45-47)

So Abraham, Abraham's son Isaac, and Isaac's son Jacob, are each 'purified' and are among the 'elect'. As said in 2:124, so long as Abraham's progeny continues, and so long as they are not 'of the wrongdoers', then God's covenant will include them. Furthermore, this is also important:

"And We blessed him and Isaac. And among their progeny are the virtuous and those who clearly wrong themselves." (Q. 37:113).

This demonstrates that among the progeny of Abraham there will be both virtuous people and wrongdoers, but again per 2:124, God's covenant will only include the virtuous among his progeny. This brings us to the second question (ii), how do I know the Shia Imams are the progeny of Abraham? This is proved by the genealogy of the Prophet and Ali recorded in many books. This is the Shia version (but Shia and Sunni agree that Muhamamd and Ali both are descendants of Abraham):

Abraham — Ishmaél — Qayda — Haml — Nabt — Salaman — al-Hamaysa — Udad-al
Yasa — Adnan-Udd — Ma‘add — Nizar — Mudar — Ilyas — Khuzayma-Mudrika — Kinana — Malik-al-Nadr (or Quraysh) — (Fihr) — Ghalib — Lu’ayy — Ka‘b — Murra — Kilab — Qusayy — Qusayy (or Fihr) — Abd Manaf — Abd al-Muttalib-Hashim

And the sons of Abd al-Muttalib include AbdAllah the father of Muhammad, and Abu Talib the father of Ali. The Imams after Ali are Hasan and Husayn, his two sons with Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad. The Imams after Husayn are all descendants of Husayn. So we can see now how the Shia Imams are progeny of Abraham. The next question is whether they include the covenant mentioned in 2:124. At least in the case of the first three Imams, Ali and his sons, we know that they are purified according to 33:33. This is significant when you consider that in 38:45-47 (above) Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are also called purified, and so according to 2:124 became Imams. So at least it is shown that Ali and his two sons are Imams in this sense. As for the all the subsequent Imams, historical sources, Shia and Sunni, are all in agreement that they were men of great piety. So the case is made.

Cont.

>the word imam in the quran does not denote a position like that of rasool or nabi
According to the Shia interpretation it does. I'll analyze all the instances of the word' imam' in the Quran (at least those that I have recorded in my notes). There are three categories of the use. In the first category with only one instance, it means a road:

"So We took vengeance upon them. Truly the two of them are on a clear road (imam)." (Q. 15:79)

Here 'imam' does not refer to a human and cannot be applicable to 2:124, so we leave this one aside in our interpretation of that verse. The next category are the verses in which 'imam' denotes a holy Book. This category include these two verses:

"... And before it there was the Book of Moses, a guide (Imam) and a mercy. ..." (Q. 11:17)
"Yet before it there was the Book of Moses, a guide (Imam) and a mercy. ..." (Q. 46:12)

So we see that Holy Books, and in this case the Book of Moses, can be Imams. That could be why Shias call the Qur'an the Silent Imam. Since this category also cannot be applied to humans, it is not relevant to 2:124. The final category are the verses in which 'Imam' refers to a person. I am aware that Sunnis interpret it differently, but according to Shia sources all of these verses refer to Imamate (which goes beyond only the Shia Imams). I will demonstrate how for each verse.

"And [remember] when his Lord tried Abraham with [certain] words, and he fulfilled them. He said, 'I am making you an imam for mankind.' He said, 'And of my progeny?' He said, 'My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.'"
This is of course the verse we are trying to interpret here. Here cross-referencing it with the other things said about the progeny of Abraham can be helpful. As said before, 4:54 says the House of Abraham are given the Book, Wisdom, and Sovereignty; also 38:45-47 says they are 'purified', 'chosen', 'elect'.

"On the Day We shall call every people by their imam, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, it is they who shall read their book, and they shall not be wronged so much as the thread of a date stone." (Q. 17:71)
Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq has said about this: "everyone will be called according to the Imam of their time, and the (Shiite) Imams will be called by the Prophet Muhammad". See the explanation for this verse in The Study Quran.

"and who say, 'Our Lord! Grant us comfort in our spouses and our progeny, and make us imams for the reverent,'" (Q. 25:74)
Regarding this verse, this narration is narrated in Tafsir al-Qummi: "I asked Abu AbdAllah about the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic: "And those who are saying, ‘Our Lord! Grant to us from our wives and our offspring, and Make us Imams for the pious.' He said: ‘They are us, the People of the Household (Ahl al-Bayt)’".

Cont.

>>20524522
>the word imam in the quran does not denote a position like that of rasool or nabi
According to the Shia interpretation it does. I'll analyze all the instances of the word' imam' in the Quran (at least those that I have recorded in my notes). There are three categories of the use. In the first category with only one instance, it means a road:

"So We took vengeance upon them. Truly the two of them are on a clear road (imam)." (Q. 15:79)

Here 'imam' does not refer to a human and cannot be applicable to 2:124, so we leave this one aside in our interpretation of that verse. The next category are the verses in which 'imam' denotes a holy Book. This category include these two verses:

"... And before it there was the Book of Moses, a guide (Imam) and a mercy. ..." (Q. 11:17)
"Yet before it there was the Book of Moses, a guide (Imam) and a mercy. ..." (Q. 46:12)

So we see that Holy Books, and in this case the Book of Moses, can be Imams. That could be why Shias call the Qur'an the Silent Imam. Since this category also cannot be applied to humans, it is not relevant to 2:124. The final category are the verses in which 'Imam' refers to a person. I am aware that Sunnis interpret it differently, but according to Shia sources all of these verses refer to Imamate (which goes beyond only the Shia Imams). I will demonstrate how for each verse.

"And [remember] when his Lord tried Abraham with [certain] words, and he fulfilled them. He said, 'I am making you an imam for mankind.' He said, 'And of my progeny?' He said, 'My covenant does not include the wrongdoers.'"
This is of course the verse we are trying to interpret here. Here cross-referencing it with the other things said about the progeny of Abraham can be helpful. As said before, 4:54 says the House of Abraham are given the Book, Wisdom, and Sovereignty; also 38:45-47 says they are 'purified', 'chosen', 'elect'.

"On the Day We shall call every people by their imam, whosoever is given his book in his right hand, it is they who shall read their book, and they shall not be wronged so much as the thread of a date stone." (Q. 17:71)
Imam Ja'far al-Sadiq has said about this: "everyone will be called according to the Imam of their time, and the (Shiite) Imams will be called by the Prophet Muhammad". See the explanation for this verse in The Study Quran.

"and who say, 'Our Lord! Grant us comfort in our spouses and our progeny, and make us imams for the reverent,'" (Q. 25:74)
Regarding this verse, this narration is narrated in Tafsir al-Qummi: "I asked Abu AbdAllah about the Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic: "And those who are saying, ‘Our Lord! Grant to us from our wives and our offspring, and Make us Imams for the pious.' He said: ‘They are us, the People of the Household (Ahl al-Bayt)’".

Cont.

>>20524522
"Truly We give life to the dead and record that which they have sent forth and that which they have left behind. And We have counted all things in a clear Imam." (Q. 36:12)
Regarding this Qummi relates this narration from Imam Ali: “I, by God, am the clear imām; I clarify truth from falsehood. I inherited it from the Messenger of God." And narrated from the Prophet: "He is the Imam in whom God records the knowledge of all things". See The Study Quran's explanation.

"But man desires to defile his Imam" (Q. 75:5)
Some narrations say this refers to the desire of the majority of Muslims since Ali's time and thereafter to reject the Imams. "I heard Abu AbdAllah reciting: 'But, the human being wants to undermine his Imam, meaning, reject him.'" Also: "And one of our companions said: From him: ‘The Words of Allah Mighty and Majestic: 'But, the human being wants to undermine his Imam' [75:5], he said: ‘But he intends that he should undermine Amir al-Mu'minin [Ali], in the meaning of plotting against him.'"

As far as my notes go, these were all the instances 'imam' is mentioned in the Qur'an. As you can see, whenever the word can be applied to a person, Shias have understood it to refer to the Imams. You could dispute this of course, and I'm sure Sunni sources have different views, but I am only presenting the Shia view.

>It is like the verse that refers to those who give charity
This verse is only used to prove Ali's Imamate. The Imamate of the other Imams are proved by other means.

>I don't need to engage in to understand monitheism, prayer, zakat, etc.
Unless you want to become a Quranist, you are then relying on dubious sources to learn how to pray, give zakat, etc. These are the same usurpers and betrayers and can hardly be said to be reliable sources of Sharia. Shias believe a major function of Imamate is to provide legitimate rulings on the Sharia.

>There's also the fundamental issue with our Prophet being the seal. Imamah practically breaks the finality. I don't see how it doesn't. What difference is there then between say prophet Jonas and Ali, to a shia?
There is a whole hierarchy of Prophets in Shia theology. Not all Prophets are understood to be the same level. Some Prophets merely receive messages but are not required to preach, some are required to preach but only to a limited audience, some receive new books and laws, etc. The commonality is they all receive revelations. Shia Imams do not receive revelations. They inherit the knowledge and authority of Muhammad. The Shia Imams are said to be above Prophets other than Muhammad because they inherit the authority of Muhammad, and the authority of Muhammad is above the authority of the other Prophets.

You see, all these issues have been raised and debated for centuries. There are so many books written about them. The dissertation I sent you summarizes some important points, but of course there is a lot more.

What is the shia position on Christianity? specifically Catholicism and Orthodoxy? How did Christianity came to be? How do the Shiites btfo them in terms of theology etc. What did the Imams think of these faiths? Also unrelated, Shia opinion on keeping dogs? Haram or no?

bump

>>20504238
bro please stop I don't want to convert to Islam

>>20526555
run from the truth. cry more. It's funny to see you cry.

>>20526616
I cry more

Religion threads belong on >>>/his/

>>20527290
We are discussing hadiths THO

>>20527474
>B-but we're discussing the Quran 2.0!
>>>/his/