/lit/ - Literature

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>>20476172
>>20468112 you can read the anon that brought up this book recently and actually follows this tradition. Just follow the thread.

>>20473837
Does that mean you cannot receive Dzogchen instruction in the west (Europe)? What about Mahamudra?

>>20476458
An anon in another thread said that the book wasn't a good intro because it used high level vajrayana practices. Is there some risk to this or something?

>>20476585
The one who tried it said it wasn't that big of a deal.

>>20476593
If something goes wrong, are you supposed to seek help from a lama or work it out on your own?

>>20476172
>What are good complementary books/Buddhist sutras to read while practicing the 6 yogas
bump for this

>>20476172
>Is the "pick and choose what fits best" approach to tantric Buddhism good?
If you ask such a question, it’s too early for you, or you shouldn’t do it at all.
Secret Mantra is not a thing that is practiced without specific training.

>What are good complementary books/Buddhist sutras to read while practicing the 6 yogas?
Ask this question to your Guru.

By doing tantra from books, at best you will not get any results, but most likely you will cause yourself great harm. But do as you please.

>>20476716
>at best you will not get any results, but most likely you will cause yourself great harm
So why does the guy who's been following the book for quite some time >>20468112 say the opposite?

>>20476716
>Find a guru to pay or you will die from meditation, hmkay

>>20476724
kek
To be fair the guru path is probably optimal but for westerners it's not necessarily an option.

Opinions?

>>20476717
If you met a man who said: "Bro, I drink a tablespoon of mercury every morning, I feel just great. You should try it too!" You should probably think a little at first before you start swallowing a mercury thermometer.
How do you know his circumstances? Maybe his body is like that. In addition, he is responsible for himself, and you have to think about yourself.
In general, explaining the Mahayana doctrine to those who are not ready for it is a violation of the Bodhisattva vow. And revealing the secret mantra to the uninvolved is a senior violation of tantric vows.
They say some simple things like Om Mani Padme Hum can be read without initiation into tantra. But if you ask me, I wouldn't recommend it either.

>>20476745
It's about hindu tantra, not buddhist tantra iirc.
>>20476768
The book was written by Lama Yeshe which is an established authority on Vajrayana. Many people have read it and it's not a controversial book, not to my knowledge at least. Also you're discounting the possibility of initiation by dakinis that often happens when undertaking the 6 yogas according to what I've read.
>Mahayana doctrine
I've read a lot about Mahayana, otherwise I wouldn't even be considering tantra.

>>20476724
>or you will die from meditation
No, but most likely the place of your last refuge in this life will be a psychiatric hospital. And then heart problems and death. I don't even want to talk about the next life.

>>20476768
There are thousands of recorded cases of mercury poisoning. Where are the records of solo tantra practitioners suddenly disintegrating.
And preferably from a source that doesn't directly benefit from scaring people into their practice.

>>20476783
>No no no, you won't die. You will actually be put in a mental hospital, suffer and die, and them still be fucked after reincarnating.
>You can avoid all that by joining my cult.

>>20476783
Assuming you're right. What would be required for me to undertake the practices outlined in the book without harm? Initiation?

>>20476768
At what point is someone considered well-versed enough in the sutras to undertake a tantric practice?

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>>20476512
For Dzogchen in Europe, you can hit up Aro (https://arobuddhism.org/).). Gonna have to make up your own mind on whether they're legit, though.

>>20476597
You are not supposed to be doing tantra on your own to begin with

>>20477450
>The teachings of the Aro gTér descend from a lineage of enlightened women
eehhh...

>>20477469
Surely you don't let 4chan memes dictate your thinking right?

>>20477487
I think a lineage of women would be best adapted to teaching women, no?

>>20477493
That's a hopelessly materialist take. The founder of the lineage is a man at any rate. He claims to be the reincarnation of the son of the female founder.

The whole story of the female founder, the mother essence teaching etc. comes from him and his visions.

>>20477689
>That's a hopelessly materialist take.
Shakyamuni himself says in the suttas that the introduction of nuns into the order was not a good thing

>>20476172
Check out bante vilamaramsi. You can do breath as he teaches it or metta which is faster. Following the path is there if you want to achieve the ultimate, but concentration meditation isn't the path

>>20477710
>concentration meditation isn't the path
Source?

>>20477694
The Buddha provided the names of women, both mendicant and lay, who were exemplars of attainment and character. These are listed in the Pañcama Vagga and Chaṭṭha Vagga of the Aṅguttara Nikāya respectively:

Foremost in seniority: Mahāpajāpatī Gotamī
Foremost in great wisdom: Khemā
Foremost in psychic power: Uppalavaṇṇā
Foremost in memorizing the Vinaya: Paṭācārā
Foremost in speaking the Dhamma: Dhammadinna
Foremost in absorption: Sundari Nandā
Foremost in energy: Soṇā
Foremost in clairvoyance: Sakulā
Foremost in swift insight: Bhaddā Kuṇḍalakesā
Foremost in recollecting past lives: Bhaddā Kāpilānī
Foremost in great insight: Bhaddakaccānā
Foremost in wearing coarse robes: Kisāgotamī
Foremost in faith: Siṅgālakamātā
Foremost of laywomen

Foremost in first going for refuge: Sujātā Seniyadhītā
Foremost as donor: Visākhā
Foremost in learning: Khujjuttarā
Foremost who dwells in metta: Sāmāvatī
Foremost in absorption: Uttarānandamātā
Foremost in giving fine things: Suppavāsā Koliyadhītā
Foremost in caring for the sick: Suppiyā
Foremost in experiential confidence: Kātiyānī
Foremost in reliability: Nakulamātā
Foremost in confidence based on oral transmission: Kāḷī of Kuraraghara

>>20477714
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.036.than.html

>>20477714
"I thought: 'Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the past have felt painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None have been greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the future will feel painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None will be greater than this. Whatever brahmans or contemplatives in the present are feeling painful, racking, piercing feelings due to their striving, this is the utmost. None is greater than this. But with this racking practice of austerities I haven't attained any superior human state, any distinction in knowledge or vision worthy of the noble ones. Could there be another path to Awakening?'

"I thought: 'I recall once, when my father the Sakyan was working, and I was sitting in the cool shade of a rose-apple tree, then — quite secluded from sensuality, secluded from unskillful mental qualities — I entered & remained in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from seclusion, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. Could that be the path to Awakening?' Then following on that memory came the realization: 'That is the path to Awakening.' I thought: 'So why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities?' I thought: 'I am no longer afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensuality, nothing to do with unskillful mental qualities, but that pleasure is not easy to achieve with a body so extremely emaciated.

>>20477734
>>20477741
This only says that the path of asceticism isn't the right one and that nibbana is reached through right concentration
It says nothing about metta

>>20477749
I was pointing out that concentration focused meditation isn't the path, the Buddha did it and abandoned it and just went with the jhanas (by relaxing the mental body formation). Metta is in the suttas, the one where it says how to meditate doing the six corners. Annapanasati sutta also refers to the relaxation of mind body formation while softly focusing on the breath.

>>20477768
Vipassana alone isn't the path to nibbana but it is a part of it

>>20477450
Seems doubtful
https://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?t=6455

>>20477769
It's never alone. It has to do with samatha plus Vipassana. You achieve samatha by relaxing the body, real easing craving and hindrances and softly focusing the mind on the object of meditation (the breath or metta). Vipassana will happen automatically when you enter quiet mind

>>20476776
>Also you're discounting the possibility of initiation by dakinis that often happens when undertaking the 6 yogas according to what I've read.
So ask them. (another mahasiddha has been found)
>>20476786
I don't know and I'm not interested. Among the people whom I observed - problems with the psyche of one or another severity, yes, about half. True, it can be said that a person already had a bad head, and then by visualizing the many-armed deities he brought himself to the end. Mental harm is generally difficult to measure, we still do not know exactly why people go crazy and whether it can be fixed.
>>20476791
Unironic yes. Cult practices - require participation in a cult, isn't it strange? And this only reduces the likelihood of a bad outcome. Otherwise, you can do all sorts of other things, wood carving, grow orchids, there are many activities.
>>20476796
Apparently you need to go to some Kagyu group or where there is a transmission of this particular practice, it happens in other schools. The book is a supportive resource.
>>20476873
It's not about quantity. When an irresistible desire arises in you to achieve the goal of Mahayana, shorten the path that takes 140^140 eons, and become a Buddha, for the benefit of all sentient beings, in one lifetime. Even at the cost of an incredible risk, sacrifice your body, speech and mind for the sake of a great goal - the liberation of all beings from the fetters of Samsara.

As Khyentse Rinpoche says: "If you make a mistake on the path of tantra, you will fall into the vajra hell. A real tantrik will consider this just a return home."

>>20477836
Vajra hell is only a consequence of breaking samaya

>>20476172
>Is this book good for beginners to meditation?
For me it was. It's a short book, feel free to read it and form your own opinion.

>>20477469
Tantra involves the worship of women, femininity in general. If it's not for you, it's not for you.
In fact, in tantra, what you feel most disgusted with becomes the key to your practice.
Therefore, some believe that those practices that are focused on the ancient Hindus or Tibetans will not be effective for Europeans. For example, for a vegetarian culture, ritual eating of meat can become an insight into closed areas of the psyche, for meat-eaters, it's just lunch.

>>20477862
>some believe that those practices that are focused on the ancient Hindus or Tibetans will not be effective for Europeans
Not like there's any other option. This kind of elitism is pointless

>>20477867
It’s not about elitism it’s about tailoring the methodology for the circumstance which is the core of skillful means, and THERE ARE a lot of options.

>>20477931
>THERE ARE a lot of options.
Which are what? I'm talking about Vajrayana as a whole here.

>>20476694
>good complementary books/Buddhist sutras
Read the Mūlamadhyamakakārikā especially if youre having trouble thinking about emptiness. Probably read your favorite compilation of the pali canon if you havent read it before, i used "In the Buddha's Words". If you want more of an overview, a structure to show where you are in the path there are a variety of lamrim. The translation of tsongkhapa's lamrim chen mo in english as "The Great Treatise on the Stages of the Path to Enlightenment" seems good, the multi volume one. Sutra is a bit of a separate path and won't help you with the precise mechanisms of tantra but I still consider it important, if only to motivate you to achieve liberation. However I haven't read a ton of it, currently have 4 or 5 of the most popular Sutra on a reading list, flower garland, lotus, that kind of thing. It's easy to drown in the sheer amount of buddhist literature but always remember to practice. Seeking enlightenment is something you do after all, not just something you read about.

>>20477942
Thanks. Would it be excessive to try and work through pic related?

>>20477862
>In fact, in tantra, what you feel most disgusted with becomes the key to your practice.
That's not the whole story. Tantra makes use of positive and negative feelings. Yes you see the world as a charnal ground but also as the mandala. The world is fucked up AND amazing.

>>20477949
That's a lot of reading. I hope to someday have read all that but it's not by any means a prerequisite for starting tantra. There's certainly some good books on there but there's a difference between becoming knowledgeable in academic buddhism and practicing it.

>>20477959
Yes.
>>20477867
I don't understand elitism either.
Tantra speaks the figurative-symbolic language of the inhabitants of the Himalayan region 1-2 thousand years ago. We can say: these are their memes. Even the Tibetans do not understand this "language". But they had Guru Padmasambhava who combined Indo-Himalayan tantra with Tibetan bon-po and shamanism, whether it was a historical figure or a myth. The Japanese in Shingon have found their own way of adapting tantra to their culture, partly to Shinto. Let's note there they do not have "higher" brutal physiological practices, everything is very decent and cultural.
What options?
- Take it as is in the hope that the symbols will somehow work.
- Waiting for the European Guru Rinpoche - is not yet visible.
- To adapt tantra to our memes on our own. (I'm not an American, let's say, but you can imagine American tantra where Superman, Mickey and Minnie Mouse merge into Yub Yum, cowboys, Jesus, George Washington with a fire sword, burger offerings, gatling guns, gods on pickup trucks, Pepe. There would be thangkas in this spirit.)

>>20477949
>>20477976
Several of those are shastra or scholastic literature of little relevance to tantra but the Heart Sutra, Nagarjuna, Aryadeva, and Shantideva should be read

I would also recommend Snellgrove's book on Indo-Tibetan Buddhism for both a survey of Buddhism's history prior to tantric developments as well as those developments.

>>20478091
Not them but thank you, I'll add Bodhisattvacaryāvatāra and 400 stanzas to my list

After all this Buddhistobabble in these threads I guess I'll just read the mind illuminated written by the kind-looking horny old man. At least it seems like a simple guide without much complication.

>>20478200
Well, after you finish that, these threads are a pretty excellent reading list. It's a pretty big topic after all

>>20477976
>>20478091
>>20478170
What about the literature on mind only, the lankavatara sutra, huayen literature? Aren't they important?

>>20478090
But adapting the symbols takes too much time and no lama wants to risk it because it would be considered too unorthodox. What's wrong with taking the symbology as-is?

>>20478269
Yogacara branches off into Huayan, Zen, Chan moreso than tantra. You can still read them but it's less applicable if you are explicitly looking to get into tantra. The Asanga-Maitreya texts are still preserved in broader Tibetan Buddhism, stuff like the Mahayanasangraha, the Dharmadharmatavibhaga, the Bodhisattvabhumi etc. More useful to someone interested in Buddhist philosophical developments or Yogacara specifically

>>20478302
Oh, okay. I find huayen and tendai very interesting, are they really irrelevant to tantra completely? When it comes to theory am I better off reading something related to rantong/shentong, Longchenpa and such?

>>20478314
Well stuff like tendai or shingon are the descendants of "right hand" Indian tantra if that makes sense, less about transgressive semi-saivist sex/death cults more about visualizations, rituals, mantrayana etc. Not that the left hand side doesn't have those but different emphasis

>>20478337
Current Vajrayana is only left-hand path focused?

>>20478090
>To adapt tantra to our memes on our own
One could certainly construct an iconographically accurate mandala of anime waifus. The Buddhists had Vajrapani unseat Shiva in their tantras and take over his functions. Would need to figure out who each one corresponds to.

>>20478341
Strictly speaking no, but that's a major reason why "sex scandal" or "drug abuse" crop up with many of the western-transplanted lineages

>>20478356
Do the four major schools have a different focus on the right or left hand path?
I thought sex scandals and so on were related to cultish practices more than anything else. Though there was a controversy about Shambhala and their visualizations of fucking 12 year old girls or whatever but I don't see what the big deal is, it's just a visualization they weren't fucking actual kids

>>20476172
In the Vajrayana teachings themselves, it is noted and stressed that the Hinayana and Mahayana disciplines are necessary preludes and essentials to the Vajrayana (diamond vehicle). In other words, you can’t “have” Vajrayana without Hinayana and Mahayana-type training and insights, being essentially settled in the basic discipline.

Look at the Dalai Lama, the nominal and exoteric head of Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhism — does he seem like a “sex, drugs, and astral projection/OBE/shamanistic dream yoga and meetings with and initiation from the dakinis” type of guy? No, he’s a very disciplined, even somewhat quaint figure, all about sitting meditation, cultivating loving-kindness, and so forth. These aspects are part of the tradition but they’re there as part of a whole. It’s not about teaching you to become a “certified occult big-guy.” An insight from Vajrayana Buddhism is that certain aspects of the teaching are essentially there as potential routes to more rapid realization but also just as dangerous for that reason. However, someone looking at all this and deciding, “WOW, since stuff like dream yoga, inner heat meditation, deity yoga, mantras, meditation on the chakras, and Tantric breaking of traditional Buddhist precepts through indulging in eating meat and having sexual intercourse are the more advanced and rapid routes, let me skip straight to them!” might indeed actually end up like something this guy suggests is possible >>20476716 >>20476768

They would also be analogous to the joke about the man who went to see a music instructor. “How much does it cost to learn from you?” he asked.

“Since you have no knowledge about music and have never even picked up an instrument before, I would first have to painstakingly train you in the very simple basics about it all, the first month of lessons therefore costing 100$ an hour. After the first month, it will be 50$ an hour.”

“Very well,” the man said. “That being the case, I would prefer to start with the second month of lessons.”

>>20476172
>Is this book good for beginners to meditation?
No, the Six Yogas of Naropa are classified as highest yogas tantras, which are only practiced after students have gained proficiency in exoteric teachings contained in the sutras and completed the preliminary practiced called ngondro. Until then, practitioners mostly practice simple tantras like kriya tantras if they practice tantra at all.
>Is the "pick and choose what fits best" approach to tantric Buddhism good?
No, most schools of tantric Buddhism utilize a structured and graded path. The Gelugpas use the Lamrim, The Sakyas use the Lamdre, etc.
>What are good complementary books/Buddhist sutras to read while practicing the 6 yogas?
There are no sutras on tantric teachings, tantric teachings are contained in tantras that you receive permission to read and practice when you are bestowed the appropriate empowerment/initiation from a lama. However, you can practice a simplified version under the guidance of a lama or with guidelines laid out by a lama in something like a book.
I would also like to mention that the Six Yogas of Naropa are rarely practiced together outside of a retreat, usually three year retreats. The Six Yogas of Naropa are mostly the territory of the Kagyu school, although the Gelugpas practice them too to a lesser extent. Outside of a retreat setting, Kagyus mainly focus on mahamudra and Gelugpas mainly focus on Guhyasamaja, Chakrasamvara, and Vajrabhairava. You can, however, find some teachers that teach the various practices of the Six Yogas of Naropa - both the actual initiatory practices and simplified versions - individually outside of retreats, though usually it's almost always phowa because it's the most useful practice for lay people.

>>20478421
If the practice is a big no no for beginners, why would Lama Yeshe publish a book for beginners?

>>20478382
This "Vajrayana is actually mostly the same as Theravada and Mahayana and the esoteric teachings are inaccessible to most people" thing seems overblown, there are even online programs like Tara's Excellence that provide a complete Mahamudra framework including the preliminary practices, completely online. If Vajrayana was the same thing for most and the esoteric practices are 2deep4u shit a tiny fraction of people do, what's even the point of Vajrayana existing?

>>20478269
It's all important and can provide useful insight but it isn't directly related.
>>20478302
What this person said

>>20478460
Because even buddhists disagree with each other. They always have. The Pali canon literally has a section about why ascetics argue with each other and contrasts that with why normal people have disagreements.

>>20478460
>However, you can practice a simplified version under the guidance of a lama or with guidelines laid out by a lama in something like a book.
I haven't read the book, so I can't say with certainty, but it's likely a simplified practice based on tummo (the first of the Six Yogas of Naropa that is being referenced in the title of the book), not the tummo that you would be taught if you received an empowerment. That sort of thing is fairly common, especially nowadays. It's generally believed that teaching actual initiatory teachings to people without the proper initiation would likely result in the teacher being reborn in a hell realm and the student suffering consequences from practicing something they aren't prepared for. I'm not trying to persuade the OP from practicing whatever is in the book. If it's from a real lama, I'm sure whatever is contained in it is legitimate. I just wanted to give them more information.

>>20478507
So would these watered down yogas even be effective at achieving any kind of spiritual progress at all?

>>20478507
>I'm not trying to persuade the OP from practicing whatever is in the book.
I meant to say dissuade here, not persuade

>>20478511
Well, they're certainly not going to be as effective as the real highest yoga tantric teachings that you require empowerments to receive and practice, but they're likely to be on the same level of effectiveness of lower tantric teachings, like kriya tantras. Lower tantric teachings, like kriya tantras, are mostly done for practical purposes. For example, kriya tantras focused on the medicine buddha to heal the sick are very popular. However, they technically can still lead to spiritual progress and even enlightenment, it's just extremely rare and impractical. You would be better off working your way through exoteric sutra teachings, then basic tantric teachings, then highest yogas tantas.

>>20478492
>If Vajrayana was the same thing for most and the esoteric practices are 2deep4u shit a tiny fraction of people do, what's even the point of Vajrayana existing?
That's getting into an interesting issue. There is and always has been a difference between what the buddha and other authoritative sources say, if you're talking about mahayana or vajrayana, about how you should practice and what people actually did. The pali scriptures are pretty clear that an essential part of liberation is the cultivation of samadhi through meditation. And yet it took until the 1800's for the king of siam to realize that no one was actually meditating. Barely anyone even remembered how to do it. They were just ritually chanting the texts that talked about, in a language that they didn't understand and there were no translations for.

>>20478366
Shambhala had actual cases of sexual assault.

>>20478540
*texts that talked about meditation

>>20478538
>You would be better off working your way through exoteric sutra teachings
That's the usual progression for Vajrayana since you need to do all the ngondro stuff first anyway right?
I think I'll just go ask a Lama for help anyway and see where it takes me, but ideally I'd like to be independent

>>20478540
That's why my reasoning goes along the lines of: since the "original true teachings of Buddhism as taught by Shakyamuni have probably been lost at this point, why not drop the quibbling and go for Vajrayana since it's at least a high risk high reward situation"

>>20478507
The practices presented in the book are not watered down. They're the kind of thing you'd normally need empowerment to be allowed to study. Lama Yeshe believes that this is the right way to handle tantra in the current age if you want people to actually practice and for it to not die out. I can understand disagreeing with that stance but to me having a bunch of amazing spiritual practices doesn't count for anything if you're not helping people with them.

>>20478567
What does he say about the dangers inherent to tantric practice
And why doesn't he write a book on complete Mahamudra

>>20478557
I would personally agree. The particular historical provenance of a technique is less important than if it actually works. This means I also tend to gravitate towards techniques that make verifiable claims. You will have a vision, you will feel this sensation. That kind of thing.

>>20478552
>That's the usual progression for Vajrayana since you need to do all the ngondro stuff first anyway right?
Yes
>I think I'll just go ask a Lama for help anyway and see where it takes me, but ideally I'd like to be independent
I don't mean to discourage you. You can still be fairly independent, you just require lamas to receive empowerments. After that, unless you have a dedicated student teacher relationship, you'll likely be on your own. It's not uncommon for lamas to give out tantric empowerments - even for highest yoga tantras - to large crowds of people. The Dalai Lama himself regularly gives Kalachakra (a highest yoga tantra) empowerments to massive crowds of people every few years. It would obviously be impossible for him to guide every person in the crowd beyond just giving the empowerment because there's hundreds to thousands of them every time. It's just generally understood that you shouldn't actually do the practice unless you've made made achieved proficiency in sutra teachings and at least started ngondro, at which point you would mostly be able to handle it on your own.

>>20478578
Yeah, I'm attracted to tantric practice for the same reasons, it's very concrete and "vivid" so to speak.

>>20478574
>What does he say about the dangers inherent to tantric practice
There's a section that's entirely devoted to it, pic related.
>And why doesn't he write a book on complete Mahamudra
Because he's dead. A lot of his lectures have been turned into books, supposedly his "Introduction to Tantra" is quite good as well.

>>20478589
As I understand it the only things that require a lama are the initiation and the subsequent empowerments, but things like the Six Yogas require very long retreats don't they?
>achieved proficiency in sutra teachings
How is this assessed?

>>20478634
>Six Yogas require very long retreats don't they?
They're normally taught that way. They weren't always taught that way though so it's not that's a required part

>>20478641
How do Kagyu initiates manage since the practice is centered around the six yogas? I can't imagine householders going on 3 year retreats.

>>20478613
>Because he's dead
Damn. It would be nice for a comprehensive book on the path to be written.

>>20478634
>How is this assessed?
It depends on the school and the teacher. If you’re independent, you would have to assess that for yourself. Metrics might include having a decent grasp on basic concepts like emptiness and dependent arising; being able to do basic sutra mediations, like samatha and vipassana, for prolonged periods of time; cultivating paramitas; etc. I’d recommend reading the Lamrim Chenmo. It lays out the path of sutra teachings practiced by the Gelugpas. You don’t actually have to follow it, but it will give you a good idea.

>>20478693
>I’d recommend reading the Lamrim Chenmo
I'd also recommend this. Snow lion publishing's 3 volume version is the version that I've used.

>>20478693
Gotcha. What's the equivalent of the Lamrim Chenmo for the other schools like Kagyu and Nyingma?

>>20478723
The Nyingma equivalent is the Treasury of Precious Qualities and the Kagyu equivalent is the Jewel Ornament of Liberation

>>20478749
I assume there's not much substantial difference but I'm guessing I should preferably read the one from the lineage I'm going to possibly receive initiation from.
Thank you, I appreciate the help.

>>20478492
It’s not that I’m trying to “dissuade you from the real stuff and highest teachings”, rather just pointing out that maybe what you need and the best thing you can get from these teachings is a lot more simple, basic, down-to-earth and nearby than the exotic techniques and teachings which appeal to you (which were meant to be and are still part of a whole). Maybe something like what Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche called in English, as a sort of inspired translation of ideas such as those behind of the phrase bodhichitta, “basic goodness.”

As people have pointed out, “tantra” means technique — but the point of the techniques given, is not to get addicted to them or make a cult out of them, but use the techniques given to essentially knock your consciousness out of its ruts, beyond the stage where you’re exotically titillated by or addicted to the great need for “some mystical state of consciousness,” “some vast transcendental state of awareness,” “some secret technique which will give me enlightenment,” etc. The techniques are essentially there so you can go beyond needing techniques.

The teachings about anatta (no-self), karma and reincarnation, the truth of suffering (dukkha) caused by desire, the desire to be liberated from the grinding wheel of samsara, cultivating maitri and karuna (loving-kindness and compssion), grounding in samatha and vipassana meditation (calming the mind and insight), these are all part of the whole. If you want to learn and study Vajrayana these are included, it’s not like it’s “just the unimportant parts which Vajrayana has gone beyond.”

As Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche may have put the insight, “the journey is the goal.” If you have this idea like, “Let me just disregard all this other boring stuff, pick and choose what I like, carry out the six yogas of Naropa without a basic grounding in and insights about the core of Buddhist teachings,” you’ll be making your own thing up and at best not get anything out of it or get some sense of occult titillation, at worst something like this >>20476783.

A great analogy to this is in the use of hallucinogenic drugs. You can take something like LSD and maybe get into some type of jhana (state of meditative absorption) but what if you constantly took LSD, day after day, even boosting the doses massively so as to counteract tolerance?

Would you be able to live normally, or wouldn’t you rather go insane after a while and become dysfunctional?

>>20478752
They're all based on A Lamp for the Path to Enlightenment anyway, just with different emphasis.

>>20478279
There are lamas who are ready to at least discuss this issue. Most just teach westerners the way they taught themselves and the way they would teach Tibetans or Nepalese etc. It's like taking a drug that was designed for a different metabolism. Sometimes it helps, sometimes not so much, sometimes it hurts. I have explained everything above.
>>20478352
>mandala of anime waifus
weebtantra
>The Buddhists had Vajrapani unseat Shiva in their tantras and take over his functions. Would need to figure out who each one corresponds to.
Yeah, top 10 anime betrayals.

>>20478770
And yet, conversely enough, someone might experiment with LSD (a “high-risk high-reward” possibility, as >>20478557 would put it), find that it really IS a possibility to get into this meditative state of consciousness and gain much insight from it, then see that it’s really much better to be able to integrate and get into these meditative states of consciousness in daily, waking, normal sober life as opposed to needing the crutch of the drug to get it. In other words, it’s a (potentially quite dangerous) crutch or tool or ladder offered, “This meditative state of consciousness really is possible to attain, it’s not just something I read or think about from a book or a guru.” This is essentially what the exotic-seeming yogas of Vajrayana are, parts of a whole and not just “their own thing which can be taken without the fundamental discipline and training and insight which makes up the entire teaching.”

For instance, take the fascinating and exotic practice of dream yoga (what we today would call “lucid dreaming”) in Tibetan Buddhism. Let’s suppose you try this out, learn to do lucid dreaming, really expand on and develop it and just keep doing it because it’s so interesting.

Does the lucid dreaming in itself offer you a way to development in your waking daily life? Do you necessarily become happier, freer, more aware and enlightened, free from dukkha (suffering) and the wheel of samsara? Not necessarily, if it’s just taken by itself. But if you take it as part of the entire teaching and simply one technique offered as part of a coherent body of teaching, to introduce directly, practically and experientially to ideas which may be hard to understand discursively and intellectually — such as that, “Your waking life is essentially similar to that of a dream and dreaming no different from your waking life. Behind both are your own fundamental Buddha-nature which is lucid, clear, void awareness and all-pervading,” then perhaps it’s a useful “technique” for introducing you to the actual crucial phenomenological and epistemological insights.

>>20478663
A completely comprehensive book like that would be a crazy undertaking. People have attempted it before though and that's where lam rim come from. Using a lam rim as an overall guide and a few separate texts to provide clarification on specific issues seems to be the best we're going to get.

>>20478366
>Do the four major schools have a different focus on the right or left hand path?
Among Buddhists, for the most part (with exceptions), tantras are not divided into left and right hands. There are paternal and maternal there according to the method. Usually divided into classes: kriya, charya, yoga, annutarayoga, mahayoga, atiyoga, etc. According to the Tibetan classification, the Japanese have only kriya and charya tantras, I doubt the second one. They are also earlier historical in time, usually without "hardcore".

>>20478770
I understand the purpose of tantric techniques, but is it a bad thing to want to learn them when they are objectively (according to their proponents at least) quicker in their results than the more fundamental practices? I get that there might be a kind of prideful yearning for "only the best and most esoteric stuff" and I readily admit it, but in my particular case, I feel like the more intense visualizations would be fitting and that I could benefit from such practices more easily.
Of course Vajrayana includes everything else, but it's also the possibility of going beyond that and delving into tantra that I want to explore eventually.
I get your point, though. I'm not about to completely neglect the Theravada/Mahayana stuff, especially since the theoretical grounding is so fundamental. I struggle with satipatthana, so this is surely something to work on.

>>20478803
>There are lamas who are ready to at least discuss this issue
Some might, but it's not something you should count on, right? I don't think it's so dramatic as tantra being downright ineffective on westerners, I'm not too fond of that kind of Jungian collective unconscious interpretation of religion, especially since Vajrayana can be integrated into a perennial framework very easily.

>>20478814
>what we today would call “lucid dreaming”
I may be nitpicking here but it's not the same thing. Dream yoga includes lucid dreaming as a prerequisite, but it goes much farther.
>Does the lucid dreaming in itself offer you a way to development in your waking daily life?
According to Stephen LaBerge, LD itself without any additional practices can be tremendously helpful in daily life
>Your waking life is essentially similar to that of a dream
I've read Tenzin Wangyal's book on the subject and I found that this kind of practice (seeing the dreamlike nature of daily life as much as possible) was very interesting. However I think it can cause derealization if done as its own standalone thing without any kind of spiritual backbone. It's definitely a very powerful kind of feeling though.

>>20478819
iirc isn't lamrim just a barebones "table of contents" that describes the practices chronologically

>>20476585
You could get possessed by a demon.

>>20478913
No such thing, this isn't the bible thread

>>20478885
Well yes, authentic dream yoga would actually need an understanding of yogic meditation/reaching a state of samadhi, and then it would be carrying it into the dreaming state, and in this case since you already have the grounding in yogic meditation you really have learned something valuable. But it has to be learned first. So you’re right, what I was technically trying to say is that you could simply do lucid dreaming as an exotic practice but it wouldn’t necessarily be dream yoga. If you could actually do dream yoga it would mean you already have a grounding in and understanding of meditation. And something like dream yoga wouldn’t be “the core thing,” “the only thing,” “you can just do dream yoga and become enlightened.”

“You can just do XYZ and become enlightened.” If it were that simple it would have been figured out by now. My point is more that people want “a cheap way out”. Any authentic spiritual teaching, training and practice — essentially the first thing they will smack you in the face with is, “There IS no ‘cheap way out.’ Coming to terms with the fact that there’s no cheap way out, is in fact the start of the way out. It’s not about running away from life. It’s about facing life rather squarely, without giving yourself the excuses and lack of discipline you would ideally want to give yourself.”

>>20478889
It's a bit more than that. Theyre all commentaries with the author adding their insights to each step. Normally a bit abbreviated hence the need for specific texts to fill in the gaps.

>>20478937
Oh yeah I understand what you're saying.
As far as the "you can do XYZ and become enlightened" thing is concerned, I think the Theravadins would say that samatha and vipassana alone are sufficient, but then again Nibbana and enlightenment aren't quite the same thing. I feel like the Mahayana/Vajrayana model is more gradual and that the progress itself can indeed be considered to be the goal, firstly because of the Nirvana = Samsara equivocation, and secondly because nobody can realistically be expected to go through all the steps to become a Buddha in a single lifetime (whereas one can theoretically become an Arahant in a single lifetime, more easily at least).
>a cheap way out
I understand. There's no "secret barebones version of Vajrayana where you only do the secret practices and become a Buddha without having to do the boring Hinayana stuff", it's all intertwined and the secret practices become meaningless — or at least, not conducive to much spiritual advancement — without the required foundation.

>>20478925
Vajrayana has demons

>>20478966
Yes but it doesn't have the same meaning

>>20478557
>"original true teachings of Buddhism as taught by Shakyamuni have probably been lost at this point, why not drop the quibbling and go for Vajrayana since it's at least a high risk high reward situation"

It is probably worth remembering that the Buddha himself said that even in a degraded form, his teaching would be of great benefit to people. The teachings of the Sutra, even if they do not bring much benefit, do not bring harm either. Again, if you want to take a risk - at least do it according to the rules - find a guru.
Your thought that did not give too much to cling to "what the Buddha actually said" - I like it. The teaching of the Buddha is valuable for its fruits, and not for the fact that it is the teaching of the Buddha.

Surprisingly, I see excellent Dharma experts here, I immediately see from the posts that a person knows some shit. Now my pride hurts a little that I didn't sign my posts like I usually do. I'm this anon >>20476716

>>20478937
>>20478885
To give a further explication, dream yoga would be meditating in dreams. You would bring the core insights and practice and training even into the dream state, learn to meditate in your dreams, and this would be part of your overall practicing and living and experiencing and essentially help you solidify and stabilize the insights even more. So it’s somewhat trippy. But to learn to meditate in your dreams, you have to learn to meditate in your waking life first. You would have to already know how to meditate — you can’t just “skip it” and go straight to dream yoga.

Figures like LaBerge indeed point out deliberate controlled lucid dreaming, teaching yourself to do it, can indeed have effects and benefits even on its own. This isn’t something I necessarily deny — it may in fact be some type of latent capacity we have as human beings, which deliberately developing causes to strengthen certain faculties and areas of the brain which usually lie latent and dormant. So deliberately learning lucid dreaming would itself be a yogic practice even if they didn’t call it that — in learning to do it, you’re essentially already giving yourself a sort of discipline and training in your awareness, which could have these psychological benefits figures like LaBerge bring up.

>However I think it can cause derealization if done as its own standalone thing without any kind of spiritual backbone. It's definitely a very powerful kind of feeling though.
And yes, exactly, there’s the catch. The exploration of the altered state of consciousness, the certain techniques and insights given out, have to be gone into rather carefully and with a strongly realized and trained consciousness, the grounding in basic discipline. Otherwise, some type of unhealthy admixture can come in which feels like you’re going mentally ill — “I feel derealized and depersonalized after meditating deeply on the dream-like nature of reality and waking life to the point that it feels unhealthy, like I’m going crazy. I heard that meditating on the dream-like nature of reality is an interesting technique that can lead to realization but something went wrong and now I just feel off.”

This is the very literal and basic possibility that is legitimately brought up in Vajrayana and has been part of their literature and teachings for hundreds of years. You can LEGITIMATELY develop some type of mental health issues or drive yourself nuts, trying to do your own “pick and choose my way to occult development.”

You might ask yourself: “What do I really want from this?” A common answer would be something like, “The fascinating enlightenment I’ve heard about, freedom from suffering.” But is a desire for the exotic state of consciousness to be found in dream yoga and the like, itself necessarily conducive to enlightenment without — tautologically and paradoxically enough — the enlightened mind itself being there to be able to benefit from it?

>>20478159
What book?

>>20479057

Technically, no one is actually stopping you from trying to carry out the six yogas of Naropa, it’s just a question of whether you actually need and can benefit from them, and how stabilized and disciplined your mind already is so that you don’t drive yourself crazy doing it.

An even better example is the tummo (inner heat) meditation which might be developed by inuring your body to very cold temperatures and essentially seeing that your fundamental consciousness, your Buddha-nature is beyond heat and cold, can withstand cold. It can shock you out of your ruts and develop a great discipline which you can carry into normal life. But it’s entirely possible that a person could go out naked into the Arctic tundra and legitimately freeze to death and die.

This is the extremely practical consideration and nature of it — the “extreme” practice or technique for getting into the altered state of consciousness more rapidly, such as by putting your body out in the very cold — can very literally, obviously, give you frostbite or harm you. If a person had some physical illness or debility that actually put them at great risk from this, no qualified guru would tell them, “Go out in the cold and do the Wim Hof method.” It would be somewhat dangerously suicidal and pointless. But for some, it could indeed be a powerful type of discipline and training in meditation — bringing the meditative state of consciousness even into the cold.

>>20479026
>The teaching of the Buddha is valuable for its fruits
That's the basic assumption I operate from. Sticking to a perceived "orthodoxy" for the sake of authenticity is pointless in an era where Shakyamuni himself said his teachings would have completely degenerated.

>>20478955
>>a cheap way out
>I understand. There's no "secret barebones version of Vajrayana where you only do the secret practices and become a Buddha without having to do the boring Hinayana stuff", it's all intertwined and the secret practices become meaningless — or at least, not conducive to much spiritual advancement — without the required foundation.
Exactly it.

>>20479060
I forget the exact title but it shouldn't be hard to plug in "snellgrove buddhism" and find it. It was recently reprinted as a single volume instead of being two separate volumes.

>>20479070
>>20479070
Wrong understanding of tummo, based on Neel's fantasies.
Tummo is candali is kundalini: the concepts, from the theoretical to the practical, overlap between Hindu and Buddhist tantra. The essential point of tummo shifts in the tantras from the simple burning away of skandhas and defilement in the Hevajra towards facilitating the movement of the drops towards the original neonatal and postmortem state - you activate tummo, the drops return to the indestructible one heart, their shifts and changes signifying a movement into deeper, more primal levels of awareness - of the Kalachakra tantra and latest commentarial traditions.
The danger here, as defined by tradition and modern spokespersons like doctor Nida, is that a lay person, in the course of tummo, may shift the balance of his winds and drops and get sick. If you are one of the people who believe the corona and cirrhosis and monkeypox are caused by the fluctuations of the five winds and the obstructions of the energy channels, then you shouldn't touch it.
And as regarding tummo as sexual and spiritual practice, results and states similar to it have been achieved by Western people, with no initiation, or even education in tantric matters, since the sixties. For example, read Wilson's Sex, Magic, and Drugs and Wilson's Cosmic Trigger 1.
Also, the dangers of the Vajrayana are overblown, and influenced by a Tibetan tantric world-view that still believes that being granted an initiation along with a mudra means accessing the awesome cosmic power of the deity in all its pacifying and destroying aspects. That was the main pull of tantra in the original Indian context: teacher gives initiation to kings and promises that, by being initiated and made into the deity, the kings would acquire the omniscience of the said deity: teacher promises apotheosis and access to unlimited power through the mediatory rites of empowerment and initiation. Hence the insistence on secrecy, proper attitude, the admonition of tantra being like touching a live wire.
This point is made clear even in the tantras themselves where the material that is most hidden, most secret, isn't the technique itself, but the deity mantra. Yes, the big and dangerous secret that lamas don't want you to know is not the practice, but the deity mantra. Read Gray's Chakrasamvara translation to see the importance of mantra and how it was concealed in the text. Read every academic translation that has a warning in the first pages that by readign without initiation you would not understand the materual and harm yourself. It would always feature the deity mantras and the explanation of the similarity between deity and practitoner. Never forget that Vajrayana is still a religion with its own archaisms and superstitions. It may have something that works better than Western occultism, but that doesn't mean you must swallow its doctrines and hidden assumption, like the super dangerous meme, wholesale.

Another thing is that yielding some tantric current which originated in India was a way yo gain social capital in Tibet during the post-imperial dark ages.
Read Davidson's Tibetan Renaissance, where he shows how Tibetan monks created feudal clans erected on unique tantric teaching snagged from regions rimming India proper. He also rose the possibility that some Tibetan teachings, lacking Sanskrit originals, may have been improvised by opportunist Hindu Buddhist pandits who saw the need of the Tibetans as well as the gold they carried; that is, a tantra that today is dangerous, off limits, was made up the spot by a pajeet keen on money and pandering to clients seeking secret esoteric knowledge. To sum up this point, Tibetan clans gathered unique tantras as social capital to bolster one's status and, to avoid stealing, initiations and empowerment were placed.
Third thing is that the lamas promise that through initiation the pupil will gain a true understanding of a tantric text; but the catch here, as spelled in Snellgrove's Indo-Tibetan Buddhism, is that every sect has its own interpretation that it deems authoritative. That is, you go to Kagyu, they give you the Kagyu version of the true meaning of the text; you go to Nyingma, you get the Nyingma variant; with Gelug the Gelug version; and son on.
The secret is their sectarian understanding of the tantras, not some primordial hidden meaning which was probably lost already in the 9th to 10th centuries and Buddhist scholars had to create new interpretative schemes to make sense of tantra.
>>20477836
>I don't know and I'm not interested. Among the people whom I observed - problems with the psyche of one or another severity, yes, about half
1) Personal anecdote with too many unknown variables
2) You can get crazy or achieve surprising result from mere shamatha. Gopi Krishna meditated on a white lotus on top of his head for ten year for half an hour every evening and still got a powerful kundalini - or tummo, in Tibetan - experience. Lee Sannella in Kundalini experience gathered examples of Kundalini/tummo related experiences that happened outside any religious framework, including a Bushman tribe who feels the same sensation of ecstasy and heat from dancing.

4) A lot of Buddhist yogins - like Tsangyon Heruka, Lama Zhang, Milarepa, Kukkuripa - betray a certain instability of the mind even in the texts doctored and edited by the respective traditions.
Even people closer to our time are not all there. In one of Namkhai Norbu's book - I don't remember which one, though - Norbu describes how his father took him to make an offering to a solitary lama who was considered very advanced but who acted very erratic - he didn’t get why they came or what to do with their gift, spoke gibberish that neither father nor Norby understood, didn't seem to notice the presence of guests. Norbu's father, however, had explained that the lama was teaching dharma to the dakinis. You could, of course, accept the emic explanation of such behaviour; or you can take an objective stance and think rationally and understand that there really was something wrong with the lama. I don't remember the book - it was standard Dzogchen material - but this episode, the obvious irrational behaviour along with the traditional explanation, stuck with me.
Essentially, the element of secrecy in Vajrayana is a relict of the feudal age, based on superstitions and outdated traditions that are kept alive because that’s how things are done. The dangers of Vajrayana are overblown.
>>20478693
Very idealistic view of Vajrayana progress.
In Attention Revolution, a book similar to Mind Illuminated and which features some lucid dreaming practices, Wallace said that almost no one does shamatha in Tibet.

>>20479674
>>20479685
>>20479692
Well, I see that you have some knowledge.
>Personal anecdote with too many unknown variables
I don't keep statistics. I talk about what I see. I wouldn't recommend.
>You can get crazy or achieve surprising result from mere shamatha..
easy
>Gopi Krishna meditated on a white lotus on top of his head for ten year for half an hour every evening and still got a powerful kundalini - or tummo, in Tibetan - experience. Lee Sannella in Kundalini experience gathered examples of Kundalini/tummo related experiences that happened outside any religious framework, including a Bushman tribe who feels the same sensation of ecstasy and heat from dancing.
I can believe. I really don’t understand why this is necessary, except that a person is looking for ecstatic states, but this is already a little about Buddhism. Although I met such people who were engaged in Valzhrayana and despised Buddhism proper, because they were looking for precisely "magic powers". By the way, these are very good practices, the motivation is bad, but the tenacity is great.
>Namkhai Norbu's book - I don't remember which one, though - Norbu describes how his father took him to make an offering to a solitary lama who was considered very advanced but who acted very erratic - he didn’t get why they came or what to do with their gift, spoke gibberish that neither father nor Norby understood
Yes, I also read something like that from Norbu. It could be. Tantra can just act very well on non-standard consciousness, psychos, criminals, homeless people - good soil.

>Essentially, the element of secrecy in Vajrayana is a relict of the feudal age, based on superstitions and outdated traditions that are kept alive because that’s how things are done. The dangers of Vajrayana are overblown.

That's why this is the Secret Mantra. If feudal medieval remnants and prejudices and superstitions are removed from the Vajrayana, what will remain? Maybe then it is better to study engineering?
The mantra is just in a hat, you walk through the mountains, sing Om-Mani and spin the prayer wheel, imagining yourself as a 100-armed deity. And you say "prejudice to remove"! Everything is based on them.

>>20479674
>Never forget that Vajrayana is still a religion with its own archaisms and superstitions. It may have something that works better than Western occultism, but that doesn't mean you must swallow its doctrines and hidden assumption, like the super dangerous meme, wholesale.
Yes, this is also valid enough. This is the great paradox: practically every religion or mystical school you look into says, “You can’t pick and choose, you have to have wholesale blind faith in US. WE are giving the ultimate way of human development and you have to take us at face word on it. You can’t just combine a bunch of disparate elements to create some half-assed path to spiritual development.” And in a paradoxical enough way, they’re right — you might actually get way more out of choosing some one path and sticking with it, than you would out of some half-assed “DIY” path. And yet, you look at the sect, school, teaching or whatever — like Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhism in this case — and see all the peculiarities, historical and anthropological curiosities, cultic parts, etc. So we get into the state, of having to separate the wheat from the chaff — “Some of this literature, texts and practices are fascinating and feel like they can be applied to my own life but can I only do that by becoming a second-class Tibetan citizen and blind adherence to some lama, guru, or sect who may very well just be blindly carrying out the traditions and teachings and peculiarities of Tibetan culture without the deeper insights?”

And then there’s Robert Anton Wilson, who’s indeed a fascinating figure and actually DID get these results and fantastic states and experiences you mentioned, similar to stuff you can find in Tantric literature. But even here the same principle holds true: if you try to DIY Robert-Anton-Wilson-style stuff, thought experiments and real-life experiments-on-yourself as talked about in works like “Prometheus Rising,” “Cosmic Trigger I” etc. — you still legitimately can unbalance yourself and go insane! The same principle holds true that “tantric” teachings and practices — even when independently arrived at by figures like RAW and Leary, and not necessarily called “tantric” as such — can either legitimately drive you up the wall, or a strongly disciplined psyche like RAW’s, with a grounding in lots of knowledge about psychology as well as Western and Eastern philosophies, can work with the chaos as an entry fee to a higher form of order.

>>20479674
>>20480069
We seem stuck between unappealing options like, “Take on an artificial, rigorous, disciplined Tibetan/Japanese/Chinese/Indian/Arabic cultural conditioning so that you can REALLY feel like you’re an authentic [Chinese Taoist sage/Japanese Zen master/Indian kundalini yogi/Vajrayana Tibetan mahasiddha/Sufi sage]” or “Do some half-assed reading of various occult and spiritual traditions and somehow try to apply ‘what seems interesting and relevant to you’ with the sense-of-direction and intuition you trust as reliable.” The first way seems too tight and rigorous — “I’m going to blindly believe and worship everything in some sect like Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhist and find a qualified lama and join his or her training course,” cutting off your own open-mindedness, intelligence, curiosity, and freewill to be inspired by various different psychological, philosophical, and religious formulations. The second way, on the other hand, seems too “loose” — you become some half-assed New Ager who knows “a little bit about Sufism here, I learned some Zen there, some Vajrayana there, some Kashmir Shaivism and Vedanta here, I read some Christian mysticism and theology, then I sprinkled learning about various forms of tribal shamanism all on top.”

It’s a really fantastic paradox. The conditioned Christians/Muslims or what-have-you will of course say, “All this New Age occult dabbling and interest in Eastern philosophies is nonsense, just convert to Christianity/Islam/what-have-you.” And yet this too feels like a massive cop-out.

In this respect, I’m rather inspired by the example of Gurdjieff (who also is brought up in works like RAW’s “Cosmic Trigger I” and his “Prometheus Rising”, and who is supposed to have went and learned in Tibet during his massive travels as a young man in search of the truth). Today, since the actual Indiana-Jones-style physical search for truth in places like Central Asia, the Middle East and Tibet is impractical for most, the unavoidable massive-quest-for-truth probably has to take the form of a massive library and research into various religious and philosophical systems, and extracting the core insights from all the cultural and ritual dross.

>>20479692
> I don't remember the book

Pretty sure it's The Crystal and the Way of Light, I remember that story too.

>>20479685
>You can get crazy or achieve surprising result from mere shamatha. Gopi Krishna meditated on a white lotus on top of his head for ten year for half an hour every evening and still got a powerful kundalini - or tummo, in Tibetan - experience. Lee Sannella in Kundalini experience gathered examples of Kundalini/tummo related experiences that happened outside any religious framework, including a Bushman tribe who feels the same sensation of ecstasy and heat from dancing.
Yep. Interestingly enough, J. Krishnamurti’s of “the Process” as well as his feelings of “the Other” — basically, states of heightened awareness he had reached and the sense of some vast overpowering presence or benediction at times, which even other people around him noted, felt and reported on — seems like an even more unexpected analogue to the extremely similar descriptions of the kundalini experiences reported by other mystics and figures of other cultures.

To put it eccentrically enough (anyone who really deeply studies and thinks about any of this for long enough comes to seem somewhat eccentric), I think the issue is that people and cults and sects come to think that they “own” this knowledge, these techniques, these practices and experiences. Funnily enough, there was even an historical conversation/debate between Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche and J. Krishnamurti recorded in one of Krishnamurti’s books.

The fascinating part, is that Krishnamurti essentially was saying to Trungpa, “You’re just an outer artificially conditioned ‘Tibetan’ ego, somewhat of an Eastern authoritarian traditional asshole coming to the West and saying you have the superior and supreme form of religious conditioning which will take us all to enlightenment. You don’t have any authentic spiritual insight, you’re just a cult leader” — he didn’t say it quite so brusquely and bluntly and all at once but this was essentially the import. And in the debate he essentially gave his own views on meditation as a non-grasping, non-seeking state of consciousness, not one trying to reach and attain for some exotic transcendental experience but simply stilling the mind and giving attention to the basic experiential awareness of right now, of “what is,” which he also called “choiceless awareness.”

And the funny irony, is that Trungpa was repeatedly trying to point out, “Well, yes, your ideas on meditation are essentially the same thing we are taught and trained in in the Tibetan Vajrayana tradition,” but he dodged the whole question and challenge of, “Myself, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche, as the superior conditioned Tibetan ego.”

What Trungpa and the like have as a systematized body of teachings and practices, Krishnamurti independently came to from his own self-study, self-observation, and heightened awareness.

>>20480134
> cutting off your own open-mindedness, intelligence, curiosity, and freewill to be inspired by various different psychological, philosophical, and religious formulations.

David Chapman argues the tantrika Lama is attempting to teach a way of being, and if one is interested in that way of being, one necessarily must submit, in the same way you have to submit to a learned chemist if one is interested in learning chemistry. We tend to assume spiritual subjects are this loosey-goosey thing but they're much more well defined than that, even if they can't just be written down.

>>20479685
>>20480225
You could say, paradoxically, that the fundamental core of the “tantra” (which can mean as apparently different things as “thread” or “technique”) is not limited to any culture. Both of them had picked up the same “thread” or “technique,” Trungpa was simply projecting it from a traditional Tibetan standpoint and Krishnamurti from an anti-Traditional one. But you actually have to be able to pick up on the fundamental “thread” or “technique” and carry it out throughout your life, which is the addition of the necessary discipline.

Unexpected as it sounds, something like Krishnamurti’s lectures and teachings on choiceless awareness are at times closer to some of the core teachings and practices of Vajrayana Tibetan Buddhism than the exotic stuff about sexual consorts, drugs, phowa (mind-stream transference at the time of death), initiations by dakinis, etc, are. See Tilopa’s Song of Mahamudra:

Mahamudra is beyond all words and symbols,
But for you, Naropa, earnest and loyal, must this be said.
The Void needs no reliance; Mahamudra rests on naught.
Without making an effort, but remaining natural,
One can break the yoke thus gaining liberation.
If one looks for naught when staring into space;
If with the mind one then observes the mind;
One destroys distinctions and reaches Buddhahood.
The clouds that wander through the sky have no roots, no home,
Nor do the distinctive thoughts floating through the mind.
Once the Self-mind is seen, Discrimination stops.
In space, shapes and colors form
But neither by black nor white is space tinged.
From the Self-mind all things emerge;
The Mind by virtues and by vices is not stained.
The darkness of ages cannot shroud the glowing sun;
The long eons of Samsara ne’er can hide the Mind’s brilliant light.
Though words are spoken to explain the Void, the Void as such can never be expressed.
Though we say “the Mind is a bright light,” it is beyond all words and symbols.
Although the Mind is void in essence, all things it embraces and contains.
Do naught with the body but relax;
Shut firm the mouth and silent remain;
Empty your mind and think of naught.
Like a hollow bamboo rest at ease your body.
Giving not nor taking, put your mind at rest.
Mahamudra is like a mind that clings to naught.
Thus practicing, in time you will reach Buddhahood.
The practice of Mantra and Perfections, instructions in the Sutras and Precepts, and teaching from the Schools and Scriptures will not bring realization of the Innate Truth.
For if the mind when filled with some desire should seek a goal, it only hides the Light.

>>20480234
Exactly so. This is the paradox. If you don’t have reverent respect and can’t appreciatively learn from someone who is very possibly in a higher state of consciousness, with a higher development of awareness and being than you have, you will discount and deny that they even have anything to teach you — to the outsider, it seems a “cult,” and they may have very good reasons for thinking so.

Yet if you get over the assumption that, “Any form of spiritual training and discipline offered by a sect or teacher is a cult trying to take away my freewill and brainwash me,” you might very well actually be stupid enough to join some cult which abuses you even while giving you some great discipline and introduction to higher states of awareness which seem rather difficult to come to by yourself. In other words, Chögyam Trungpa Rinpoche will teach you about the insights to be found in texts like Tilopa’s Song of Mahamudra and the system Tibetans have developed for thousands of years to get you into this state of disciplined training in higher states of awareness, but you must therefore hence stop all “shopping” for more spiritual teachers, fully submit to the Vajrayana teachings and stop thinking you can find anything anywhere else, and look over the flaws and scandals and imperfections of the teacher (which might be explained away as aspects of his “crazy wisdom”).

Interestingly enough there’s a fascinating, I think, Tantric quote (I can’t remember from where I read or heard it) about the proper attitude to take towards the teacher, who is likened to a fire: “If you get too close to them, you will get burned. But if you don’t get close enough, you keep your distance from them and never decide to approach them at all, the fire will not be able to warm you.”

If you get psychologically dependent and create or get drawn into a personality-cult around a charismatic figure or leader, you might get “burned”. But if you assume that there is no spiritual wisdom found in any of these ways outside what’s offered to you in your normal cultural and religious conditioning, you might block yourself off from insight in that way, too.

>>20480242
>Although the Mind is void in essence, all things it embraces and contains.
This is really just "emptiness is form" from a "third turning" perspective. Vajrayana isn't necessary to get to it but it is a path.

>>20479674
>>20479685
>>20479692
What is the point you're making here?
Do these things somehow invalidate the legitimacy of Vajrayana as a spiritual path? To me it seems like missing the forest for the trees, the goal of Vajrayana remains the cultivation of Rigpa (more or less) and the full experiential realization of Shunyata that comes with it, the rest is peripheral and can just be considered a set of tools to reach that goal. The "superstitious" criticism seems nonsensical to me when applied to Buddhism, whether of the Tibetan sort or otherwise, because it is always and repeatedly stated that underlying all of these appearances is emptiness. Why does it matter that Kagyu and Gelug and Nyingma have their different sectarian interpretation of the tantras? In the end, the fundamental truth is the same, and all these practices are just there to help you realize that truth.

>>20480520
Yep, this is the paradox. You can look at all the historical, cultural, psychological, ritualistic and anthropological oddities and essentially obscure the great truths and insights you can extract from the culture — in this case, the Tibetan one. It is not something any culture “owns” but it is something which some advanced figures of certain cultures fantastically developed within themselves and made literature and scriptures about and systems of teaching, practices and insights offered to help you come to it, including in Vajrayana Tibetan teachings.

Gurdjieff would call it self-remembering and the self-observation exercises he gave to disciples, someone like Nisargadatta would tell you to go into “I am” as a constant devoted focus of one’s attention until one’s consciousness sort of implodes in on itself or pierces through its meaning, giving one rigpa (knowledge of the ground, of the nature of one’s awareness). You can even view it very non-religiously. Someone like Robert Anton Wilson, brought up in this thread, might simply view it as the activation of a higher circuit of one’s consciousness (taking inspiration from Timothy Leary’s 8-circuit-model-of-consciousness), part of the ongoing neurological evolution of humanity, which certain historically advanced sages, yogis, gurus and saints of various cultures came to.

The great and fascinating irony is that some figures, sects and cults can be rather developed in what you could conceptualize as this higher circuit of awareness but it doesn’t mean they’re omniscient or perfect. They simply have developed and practiced this function more within themselves and can offer you ways to it. Those with a purer, better character are indeed helpful, enlightening and inspiring, some of them of shadier character and motives can abuse their disciples financially and sexually and otherwise.

>>20480617
Yes, I agree. And I think the Lotus sutra might be relevant here, in that ultimately it comes down to upaya: I want to experience Rigpa and cultivate that experience of the ground of awareness; Vajrayana makes it the center of its practice, regardless of the specific sect; therefore, to dive into Vajrayana (with the reasonable yet not excessive level of distance that was mentioned a few posts above in regard to the avoidance of cultish practices), accepting all of its teachings and cultural baggage as a necessary part of the path towards Rigpa, does not seem to be much of an issue to me. As you say, you extract insights, without divorcing them from the substance of the teachings (otherwise you become one of those people who wishes to pick and choose their way to enlightenment) yet without taking these teachings as anything else than a mere pointer to the truth, a means towards it, a raft; not the truth itself.

>>20480686
Yep, exactly. Upaya (skillful means) and the parable of the burning house of the rich man, where the kids of the rich man playing games in it are unaware that the house is on fire and do not even understand what a house or fire is, and hence would not listen when told they have to get out of the burning house to save themselves. He doesn’t have the strength or time to literally physically be able to carry them out one by one before they will be harmed, and they won’t listen if he simply tells them, “You have to get out of the house since it’s on fire.” So a lure is placed for them to get them out of the burning house and away from the toys and games they are attracted to and thereby save them, by something like the noble lie — the father promising them they will have three wonderful carts if they get out the house right now, three carts drawn by three different types of animals, even greater toys and games to play with. But when they get out the house, the carts (which might be analogized to the fascination with the occult, the mystical and magical seeming aspects of the teaching, new “games” to play with, the attraction to having what one might consider as a “mystical” or “spiritual” experience, and the like) aren’t actually there. It was simply upaya, skillful means, to symbolically get them out of the burning house and then be able to guide them to self-knowledge and liberation.

>>20480742
>Shariputra, that rich man first used three types of carriages to entice his sons, but later he gave them just the large carriage adorned with jewels, the safest, most comfortable kind of all. Despite this, that rich man was not guilty of falsehood. The Tathagata does the same, and he is without falsehood. First he preaches the three vehicles to attract and guide living beings, but later he employs just the Great Vehicle to save them. Why? The Tathagata possesses measureless wisdom, power, freedom from fear, the storehouse of the Dharma. He is capable of giving to all living beings the Dharma of the Great Vehicle. But not all of them are capable of receiving it. Shariputra, for this reason you should understand that the Buddhas employ the power of expedient means. And because they do so, they make distinctions in the one Buddha vehicle and preach it as three.

When one hears about a teaching like Buddhism it’s ironically the most greedy aspects of the self that might be awakened, which are paradoxically the actual barriers to the authentic realization and practice of the teaching. “This teaching can give me enlightenment, freedom from all suffering, and even ecstatic states of consciousness? Let me go straight to it and see what’s there!” But then when actually practicing in and training in it you see it’s nothing “something outside yourself offered as some way to fill the time or some exotic fun and easy practice to carry out to escape from boredom or some sense of existential dread”. It’s about actually disciplining and changing YOU yourself, one way of which it could be conceptualized is as shifting the mind from its exteriorizing and grasping and desiring tendencies (always looking for something “out there” which will relieve one’s boredom, suffering, existential anguish) and turning it back upon itself, interiorizing it, seeing that what you are trying to seek is legitimately to be found within yourself, through genuinely coming to be stabilized in samatha (calming the mind, tranquility of the mind) and vipassana (insight).

In the Kargyudpa sect of Tibetan Buddhism it’s noted that the path of means (practical techniques, practices) must not be separate from the path of liberation (the genuine liberating insight). The path of means and the path of liberation have to be one. Something like, “Let me just get the highest most exotic techniques which will blow my mind and enlighten me” is something like “Let me have the path of means without the path of liberation.” It’s fundamentally useless and unworkable without also treading the path of liberation!

I just did breath meditation in a dream (not on purpose, I thought I was awake) and it made me extremely uneasy and gave it a nightmarish vibe.

>>20476172
>What are good complementary books/Buddhist sutras to read while practicing the 6 yogas?
None since buddha rejected tantrism

>>20481172
No he didn't

Bump

>>20481172
He never did that.

Does anyone know how Dzogchen differs from Mahamudra?

>>20484068
They're quite similar. Throw in the fact that mahamudra and dzogchen can be explained in slightly different ways and telling them apart becomes a bit of a mess.

From Naropa:
1. Concerning what is called Mahamudra:
All things are your own mind.
Seeing objects as external is a mistaken concept;
Like a dream, they are empty of any solidity.
2. This mind, as well, is a mere movement of attention
That has no self-nature, being merely like a gust of wind
Empty of identity, like space,
All things, like space, are equal.

Dzogchen I am less familiar with and seems to be more about finding the basis of existence, which is again emptiness.
The main difference between them seems to be the steps you take to reach the goal, even if the goal itself is very similar.

>>20484068
>>20484303
And then you have descriptions like pic related.
Great perfection (dzogchen) here is separate from sutra or tantra and seems to be defined by realizing the true nature of the mind and having to do with the 3 kayas. Some Tantric teachings already involve the kayas and Mahamudra is described by Naropa as being about the nature of the mind. Shit's complicated.

>>20484329
*pic related

>>20484303
>>20484329
This makes it sound like Mahamudra has a phenomenological focus while Dzogchen has a metaphysical one. Or are they both about Rigpa/the ground? It gets confusing

>>20484431
>It gets confusing
It certainly does. There's two ways I can think of to clear this up.
1. Mahamudra is the state brought on the by the practices of Mahamudra which are pretty clearly defined and likewise Dzogchen is the state brought on by the practices of Dzogchen.
2. All definitions of these type in buddhism are approximations of visionary experience that are impossible to perfectly describe in words. This isn't the end of the world as buddhism isn't about building a perfect definition.

>>20484443
I guess we can wrap it up like that but it definitely makes both practices seem different in their goal and outcome, even though they're both supposed to be the highest teaching in Vajrayana (Dzogchen according to Nyingma and Mahamudra according to Kagyu, if I'm not mistaken)
Maybe it can be assumed that it's simply two different ways to express a singular truth, but why have two "highest vehicles"?

>>20484524
>Maybe it can be assumed that it's simply two different ways to express a singular truth
I'd agree with that
>but why have two "highest vehicles"?
For the same reason that there are multiple Anuttarayoga tantra (literally Unsurpassable yoga tantra). For the same reasons that tantra exists if sutra can also lead to buddhahood. Some paths work better for certain people than others.

>>20484609
>for certain people than others.
I would be curious to know what makes an individual more receptive to Dzogchen or Mahamudra respectively

>>20485584
This might help to illustrate my point.
Mahamudra either incorporates some of the techniques of the 6 yogas, is studied along with them, or is seen as an effect of doing the 6 yogas. Either way you're going to be doing diety yoga, arising in the form of a strange multi-armed creatures, you're going to be visualizing seed syllables in chakras, seeing light and feeling heat. You're going to be doing a whole lot of focusing on sensations and your ability to visualize is important.
Here's an example of Trekcho meditation, one of the practices of Dzogchen.
"Sit in the lotus posture. Look at space in a state of openness. Avoid grasping at the perceptions of the six consciousnesses. Clear your cognition like the ocean free of waves. Abruptly relax your three doors of body, speech, and mind. Break free of the cocoon of view and meditation. Just maintain your clear, naked wisdom naturally. Let the five mental objects remain naturally as they are. Then natural clarity arises vividly within you." You're doing intentional mental effort to establish a certain view.
You might look at those 2 practices and say mahamudra seems much clearly delineated, that it's based on more clearly defined requirements. If you feel the heat in this part of your body you are doing it right, if you do not you're not doing it right. Or you might see mahamudra as a bunch of time-wasting imaginary bullshit and you'd much rather get right to the point. I can't say one is better than the other but I can tell you that one of them works well for me and the other seems impossible. Hopefully that helped.

>>20485677
Yeah that helped illustrate it much better, thanks. Dzogchen does sound like it would be too vague for me to be successful at it.

Sorry for the basic bitch question but can someone explain "form is emptiness, emptiness is form"

As a buddhist people who take vajrayana without being culturally born in it is a fucking larper at the highest level. Also those lama who "initiate" westerner also stray from their own teaching. See the case about western "monk" protesting dalai lama since he didnt acknowledge some mountain god on tibet as a guardian deity of some sect. Fucking lunatics. Pali sutta is all you need. Agamas might supplement them, the other basically buddhism intertwined with local teaching. Why theres no local deity who protects dhamma on american soil then, why sitting buffallo isnt a fucking boddhisatva? Or hans heidelmann or whatever the fuck is it. See all the lama who move to america and making their own lineage. Fucking burning trashcan. People who said (oh its hinayana, mahayana) are literal living devadatta. Sila samadhi panna. Thats all you need. Panna is knowing 4 noble truth, brahmavihara (metta karuna mudita upekkha), and noble path is enough, add anapasati and holding the sila is hard enough to common people. What would make you a special person needing your personal "deity" yoga. Your "atta" is covering your whole knowledge of buddha dhamma. Fucking faggots all of you

>>20486946
You are completely clueless
Start with the heart sutra

please do not attempt to practice the six yogas of naropa on your own! first of all they require initiation so they're pretty much useless in solo practice anyways, second of all they are highly advanced and many things can go wrong, including psychosis, prana disease and worse! you know how you can train your muscles in the wrong way, hurting them badly? same thing applies to your mind, and since the mind is infinitely more complex than the body it's almost impossible to get it right without the help of a teacher who has done it himself!

i wish you the best on the path to awakening, but please be careful!

>>20487142
>they require initiation
The problem is the bodhisattva vow. Not the initiation per se. I'm sure I'm not the only one to feel that way

>>20486840
It means the absolute is immanent in phenomena. Comes from Mahayana's prajñaparamita literature

>>20476172
Just read it.

>>20487554
If Samsara is Nirvana, why practice at all? I don't mean to spark an argument, I'm just wondering how this equivocation doesn't somewhat invalidate the Pali suttas in that it basically implies that striving for liberation is itself a wrong view.

>>20487597
Can't strive for liberation at all if existence isn't ultimately pure. Where would your destination be? How would the born become unborn or deathless?

>>20487637
>if existence isn't ultimately pure
But what of suffering?
And aren't things supposed to be neither existent nor nonexistent, thus the nonduality?
>Where would your destination be?
My understanding was that Samsara was the sum total of phenomenological reality, Nirvana being the exit from that.

>>20487647
>But what of suffering?
Still there, still rooted in ignorance
>And aren't things supposed to be neither existent nor nonexistent, thus the nonduality?
Things, entities, elements, phenomena, dharmas, yes—not of a true lasting existence but not non-existence since they'd not even be apparent if that were the case
>My understanding was that Samsara was the sum total of phenomenological reality, Nirvana being the exit from that.
Same absolute experienced differently; one is delusional the other is suchness. If you really like elaboration you'd have to go into the literature... whether that's Nagarjuna and his followers or the Asanga-Maitreya line. Both express mostly the same concepts but the former in a more negative method and the latter positive (in the sense of negating and positing, not in the sense of mood, for both see joyfulness and bliss in what they are describing)

>>20487690
>Still there, still rooted in ignorance
>absolute experienced differently
Is there not an inherent duality in this description? You have the delusional mind that experiences suffering, and absence of delusion is Nirvana. Or is Nirvana the realization that there was never any delusion to begin with? And yet, suffering was experienced prior to that realization.
>true lasting existence
I thought the "neither existent nor nonexietent" thing was here to describe a transcendental and indescribable suchness as per the tetralemma, not simply as a reformulation of interdependence and anicca.
I haven't read the Mulamadhyamakakarika yet so I'll start there.

>>20487707
>reformulation of interdependence and anicca
That's pretty essential to Madhyamaka, that the absolute is empty and this emptiness is at the heart of the interdependence and impermanence of phenomena, what allows for them to be so; the emphasis on purification of the mind through yogic practice to quell delusional grasping of the absolute comes from the other major Mahayanist school Yogacara/Vijñanavada

>>20487597
yeah this is a big question for the Brahmins.
Due to their deep desire of cramming back a true nature into buddhism and some primordial heaven, because NPC cant handle the not self teaching and prefer to imagine a state where they can pop in and out of existence, at anytime they want, they start seething when they are ask to solve the problem of evil which they manufactured themselves: you where comfy abiding in the original mind but then somehow karma appeared and there is the fall into suffering and now the goal is to go back to the primary mind. Woah . How the fuck did karma appear int eh first place? No fucking clue....Thanks Nagarjuna. You may as well stick to Judaism at this point.
Then they lose their mind when the buddha says explicitly that it's impossible to have state devoid of illusion, preceding a state of illusions, then followed by a state of no-illusion again. The path is only illusion->no-illusion. The path is NEVER EVER ''no illusion"=>''illusion''=>''no illusion again''...
This makes the mahayanatards, the vajrayanatards and the hindutards seethe so hard, they just go back to their drone behavior of reciting mantras and staring at a wall, it just funny at this point.

>>20487975
>it's impossible to have state devoid of illusion, preceding a state of illusions, then followed by a state of no-illusion again. The path is only illusion->no-illusion. The path is NEVER EVER ''no illusion"=>''illusion''=>''no illusion again''...
You make it sound as if there is some substance going through modes in time but that's not how it works. There's no return to a pure state that you fell out of.

>>20487975
M-mahayanabros...?!

What exactly is a "kundalini awakening"? I know new agers talk about it all the time but what does it actually mean in Buddhism/Hinduism?

>>20488630
In Buddhism it doesn't really mean anything, kundalini yoga is a thing in Hinduism where as far as I know you visualize prana as a kind of serpent and have it "uncoil" and ascend the chakras
A kundalini awakening is when you open your chakras in that manner, it's usually reported to feel very strange, sometimes even painful, like jolts of electricity in the spine. Some people experience hallucinations etc
The Chinese have an equivalent system that's supposed to be safer if you practice it alone, called the microcosmic orbit, check out Mantak Chia if you're interested

>>20488666
What if, instead of my chakras, I open my asshole?

>>20488785
it would be extremely painful

>>20488788
I would honestly feel more ripped off by buying something like green irish tweed or anything from tom ford private

>>20488630
>What exactly is a "kundalini awakening"?
A weird state of mind caused by visualizing energy flowing from the base of your spine into your head. You get a bunch of weird feelings and some people seem to go temporarily psychotic.
>what does it actually mean in Buddhism
The closest equivalent in tantric buddhism is candali and tummo. Tummo involves using your awareness to concentrate "airs" in the navel chakra and then to release it upwards so that it forcefully flows up to the crown chakra. The path is a bit different though, the chakras are visualized as being just in front of the spine instead of on your back.

>>20488788
for poo

>>20489606
hehe

>>20488630
>>20489575
It’s not necessarily “just a New Age thing.” It’s some type of phenomenon which seems to be real but can be rather dangerous. People can accumulate this energy and essentially even pass it onto others (known as kundalini shaktipat, the transmission of kundalini shakti or the “coiled energy”) in spectacular ways which are clearly not just hypnotic — in other words, it’s not just that you’ve “been hypnotized” into feeling something, even some outsider not knowing or expecting what they’re getting into reports a similar experience.

People think that the worst prospect is they might get into stuff like tantric teachings and nothing happens. They get bored, they fail, they don’t receive the vast experiences and illumination they’re expecting. In fact, this isn’t the worst thing that could happen, you’re lucky if it’s just nothing happening. One of the worst things that could happen is you actually start experiencing it and awakening some of this type of energy and experiencing which as this and other posters noticed, might give you mental health disorder — or, perhaps even worse, you can become some corrupt cult leader like Rajneesh or Swami Muktananda who actually can awaken and impart some of these experiences and practices but the failings and imperfection of their own moral character lead to the creation of spectacularly fucked up cults (yet not without some potential wisdom and inspiration, in distorted form, to be found in them). Western science and psychology won’t fully admit and talk about this phenomenon objectively, viewing it all as psychosis, self-induced or hypnotically induced, due to their materialistic limitations, and New Age conceptions of it seem equally naive, simply in a different way. The part that it makes it difficult to understand for Western science is it seems to be genuinely linked to a certain heightened form of consciousness which can be found and developed through certain meditation techniques, and isn’t necessarily moral or immoral. It just is.

>>20489942
>>20488630
In a totally different religious system of Islamic Sufism, phenomena like this is referred to with words like kaif and baraka (blessing-power from God which can be given out through chosen recipients such as certain saintly figures and prophets, relics, tombs of such saints, even perhaps materials closely handled by such figures).

There’s a fascinating anecdote about the unconventional sage G. I. Gurdjieff, a figure occasionally mentioned here, who reputedly learned from as diverse sources as Sufi orders and travels in Tibet as a young man, by a one-time student of his, Fritz Peters, in his “My Boyhood with Gurdjieff”. The fascinating part is Peters doesn’t take the position of an adoring acolyte of Gurdjieff’s who was hypnotized into revering him — he paints Gurdjieff as a very complex, human figure with human failings and eccentricities just like anyone else (sometimes in an apparently even greater degree), reports getting in great fights with G. and eventually coming to leave him and his system of teachings, but not without still having a great respect for him — more in the vein of a great man that he knew and even as somewhat of a father figure, than as a “divine master” or saint whom he blindly worshiped.

Peters reports this experience after being away from Gurdjieff from many years, developing what today would be known as post-traumatic stress disorder from his experiences in WW2, and finding him again in Paris in the late summer of 1945.

>He stared at me again for a second, dropped his cane, and cried out in a loud voice, "My son!". The impact of our meeting was such that we threw our arms around each other, his hat fell from his head, and the concierge, who had been watching, screamed. I helped him retrieve his hat and cane, he put one arm around my shoulders and started to lead me up the stairs, saying: “Don't talk, you are sick."
>When we reached his apartment, he led me down a long hall to a dark bedroom, indicated the bed, told me to lie down, and said: "This your room, for as long as you need it." I laid down on the bed and he left the room but did not close the door. I felt such enormous relief and such excitement at seeing him that I began to cry uncontrollably and then my head began to pound. I could not rest and got up and walked to the kitchen where I found him sitting at the table. He looked alarmed when he saw me, and asked me what was wrong. I said I needed some aspirin or something for my headache, but he shook his head, stood up and pointed to the other chair by the kitchen table. "No medicine," he said firmly. "I give you coffee. Drink as hot as you can." I sat at the table while he heated the coffee and then served it to me. He then walked across the small room to stand in front of the refrigerator and watch me.

>>20490034
>I could not take my eyes off him and realized that he looked incredibly weary—I have never seen anyone look so tired. I remember being slumped over the table, sipping at my coffee, when I began to feel a strange uprising of energy within myself—I stared at him, automatically straightened up, and it was as if a violent, electric blue light emanated from him and entered into me. As this happened, I could feel the tiredness drain out of me, but at the same moment his body slumped and his face turned grey as if it was being drained of life. I looked at him, amazed, and when he saw me sitting erect, smiling and full of energy, he said quickly: "You all right now—watch food on stove—I must go." There was something very urgent in his voice and I leaped to my feet to help him but he waved me away and limped slowly out of the room.
>He was gone for perhaps fifteen minutes while I watched the food, feeling blank and amazed because I had never felt any better in my life. I was convinced then—and am now— that he knew how to transmit energy from himself to others; I was also convinced that it could only be done at great cost to himself.
>It also became obvious within the next few minutes that he knew how to renew his own energy quickly, for I was equally amazed when he returned to the kitchen to see the change in him; he looked like a young man again, alert, smiling, sly and full of good spirits. He said that this was a very fortunate meeting, and that while I had forced him to make an almost impossible effort, it had been—as I had witnessed—a very good thing for both of us. He then announced that we would have lunch together—alone—and that I would have to drink a "real man's share" of fine old Armagnac.

Anthony Archer-Forbes, in his article, Dervish Ritual, within the volume, The Diffusion of Sufi Ideas in the West (1972) reports a healing ritual where advanced Sufi Dervishes transfer higher energy into suffering people to heal them:

>“In one dramatic instance, the Chief pointed his finger at four sufferers, and they began to tremble and shake almost uncontrollably; finally collapsing on the floor, and then rising at a signal. A change certainly seemed to have come over them: a load seemed shifted from their shoulders. ‘That’, said Anwar, ‘was the Larz (shaking), which comes through the utter concentration of force on the patient. It must be removed at once, otherwise they develop a taste for it and indulge in it in senseless orgies…This trembling can be accompanied by animal noises and pantomime. It can only be removed by a Sufi Master…Some (wrongly motivated) practitioners use such energization of people to maintain power over them. These produce the Larz and then do not take it off. As a result, the patients develop a dependency feeling for the operator.”

>>20490058
Keep in mind that these from are two totally different books, totally different sources describing totally different events in different times, places, and situations, with totally different people involved and no reference to each other.

Now see this experience reported by a person who went to see the Indian guru Swami Muktananda who was bringing ideas derived from kundalini yoga, Kashmir Shaivism, and Advaita Vedanta — again noting the complete difference in time and place and situation, Gurdjieff not only proclaiming adherence to any known sect whose teachings he was bringing to the West (although covert references to Sufism abound in the literature around and by him, and there’s a highly likely possibility he received much Sufic training and was essentially bringing many Sufic-derived ideas and practices to the West), Archer-Forbes talking about his studies of Naqshbandi Sufism and other forms of dervishism without any reference to Gurdjieff at all, and then the case of the Indian Muktananda mainly inspired by Vedanta and Kashmir Shaivism. This is found in Andrea Jain’s “Gurus of Modern Yoga” (2014) quoting an anonymous source who claimed to have received shaktipat from Muktananda (who scandalously abused young female disciples while publicly preaching celibacy):

> I almost jumped when the peacock feathers, firmly but with a soft weightiness, hit me repeatedly on my head, and then gently brushed my face as [Muktananda] [...] powerfully pressed one of his fingers into my forehead at a spot located just between my eyebrows [...] I'm honestly somewhat reluctant to write about what happened next because I know that whatever I say will inevitably diminish it, will make it sound as if it were just another "powerful experience." This was not an experience. This was THE event of my spiritual life. This was full awakening. This wasn't "knowing" anything, because you only know something that is separate from you. This was being: the Ultimate - a fountain of Light, a dancing, ever-new source. Utter freedom, utter joy [...] Completely fulfilled, completely whole, no limits to my power and love and light.

Jainism is better than Mahayana.

>>20476716
>>By doing tantra from books, at best you will not get any results, but most likely you will cause yourself great harm.
Nah, mantras are harmless because it's just delusion that you can get fully enlightened without following the 8 fold path.

>>20478382
>In the Vajrayana teachings themselves, it is noted and stressed that the Hinayana and Mahayana disciplines are necessary preludes and essentials to the Vajrayana (diamond vehicle). In other words, you can’t “have” Vajrayana without Hinayana and Mahayana-type training and insights, being essentially settled in the basic discipline.
>>20478492
the whole Vajrayana propaganda is that their tibetan teaching will get you enlightened in only one life, and they say that mahayana can't do that and that Hinayana cant even get you fully enlightened.

Also the buddha says that satipathanna from the 8 fold path can get you fully enlightened in 1 life too. ouspie how will the tibetans cope???

>>20491620
The Buddha says you CAN attain nibbana in one life, he doesn't say it's likely at all

>>20476172
>Six Yogas of Naropa
yoga is satanic

>>20491981
kek

>>20491620
the original methods have been lost
just make do with what's left, this petty squabbling is useless

>>20491620
buddhism/hinduism is a lie, their meditation practices are a satanic hogwash, you will never be "enlightened" drinking piss and eating dalai lama's shit or doing meditation in fetus position and other oddities

>>20480846
That was a "test". To pass it, you needed to realize you were in a dream.

>>20492119
go back to your bibble containment thread, adults are discussing things

>>20492176
I struggle a lot with lucid dreaming. Despite having a dream journal and trying to apply techniques from "The Tibetan yogas of dream and sleep", I never quite succeeded. Which sucks because I'm particularly interested in that specific kind of practice, it seems logical to me that the dream state and the death state would share similarities and learning to navigate one would prepare you for navigating the other.

>>20492119
Western occultists and New Agers have done so much to exoticize and fetishize foreign traditions, as well as make simplifications like about “left-hand tantra” which is not really a phrase in Tibetan parlance and not how they at large themselves and their teachings at all. No one is eating the Dalai Lama’s shit. They’re there learning how to do sitting meditation for hours, meditating on impermanence and no-self (anatta) teachings, having teachings and practices on cultivating loving-kindness, stabilizing the mind in samatha-vipassana (calming of the mind and meditative insight), and so forth.

>In the novel [James Hilton’s “Lost Horizon”] Father Perrault stumbles on the hidden valley and sets out to convert its inhabitants, only to be gradually converted himself until he becomes nearly indistinguishable from a Tibetan lama. This, in fact, almost happened to some of the missionaries whose accounts Hilton read; on in particular, Father Desideri, entered a monastery in Lhasa in order to study and refute the doctrines of Tibetan Buddhism, but became so interested in his studies and developed such a respect for the practitioners of the religion that he failed to make many converts. Eventually he wrote, “I was ashamed to have a heart so hard that I did not honor my Master as this people did their Deceiver.”

>>20492657
Source: Edwin Bernbaum’s “The Way to Shambhala.”

Keep in mind the framework of Tibetan Buddhism IS Buddhism. The historical basis of it is legitimately, that of the 8th-century Indian scholar and yogi Padmasambhava bringing the Buddhist teachings from India to Tibet and adapting the teachings to an extremely foreign mindset with a bizarrely exotic pantheon of gods and shamanic beliefs and practices already in their culture.

So, when people look at Tibetan Buddhism they have to keep in mind how fundamentally foreign and culture-bound this all is, and separate the kooky “Tibetanness,” from its core which is essentially Buddhist. You can’t really understand or learn about Vajrayana without learning about Buddhism itself.

>>20492187
Keep trying but abandon the journal and the guide books. You have to find your own way for your own brain/chemical/physiology/psyche.

I have reached the state of dreaming while nearly fully awake. Lucid to the point of being indistinguishable from reality. I got there through Buddhism and doing lots of things they say not to do in the books about dreaming.

There is no self.
There is no reality.
There is no dream.
There is no path to find.
Wake-up.

>>20492680
>>Keep in mind the framework of Tibetan Buddhism IS Buddhism. The historical basis of it is legitimately, that of the 8th-century Indian scholar and yogi Padmasambhava bringing the Buddhist teachings from India to Tibet
this makes the framework of Tibetan Buddhism to be medieval Buddhism, not the buddhism at the time of the buddha, you know, the one which matters

>>20492714
>buddhism at the time of the buddha
It's gone

I am so glad the first temple I walked into was a Thai temple.

>>20492709
I tried a bunch of methods, WILD, substances and so on, but I can't shake off my unconscious torpor while in the dream state. How did you find your personal method?

>>20492761
Personally, my journey is that of a short cut compared to i watch so many westerns torture themselves with.

I discovered a Thai temple in my home town and studied the very basics of the Pali under the guidance there. I never sought to be initiated but they gladly let me visit and study thier library and guide my meditation as a western lay devote. Actually not wanting to join thier brotherhood was the best decision. They offered many times, and the romance of the saffron robes was tempting. But I knew I would find my own way.

I avoided all other western Buddhism as it all seemed so ridiculously drenched in the non essential oriental eroticism and fetishism of the mystical yogic tantric paths.

After 15 years or so of focusing on the most essential teachings my meditation began to take then form of a separate mindful state that I could access awake or asleep. When I looked into what this could be I realized I was lucid dreaming for a long time without realizing it.

If you want control stop trying to control.
If you want to dream, wake up.
If you want to exist there, stop exiting here.

These words do not even begin to describe it. No words can. Your path is yours alone. All I can say is at a certain point more books won't help. Practice and mindfulness alone will get you there.

You are already in the steam. Your toes are wet. You can feel the water is cool and flowing. Let yourself fall in. You are the water itself. If only you could stop looking and see.

If they say I lead you astray they are right. But so will his holiness and every other Llama and yogi. Sit alone under the tree. Take off your mental robes. Set aside your books. Meditate while you walk. Stop looking for your path. You are already on it. Let go of what binds you.

>>20492119
Lol @ satanic but otherwise this is correct, yes.
If worshipping meditation, or any other gradual techniques, would enable enlightenment, everybody would know about it and do it already all this time.

>>20492815
>initiated
Doesn't initiation only make sense within the context of esoteric Buddhism i.e. Vajrayana

>>20492187
Just keep practicing... imprpve your focus and your memory and your will daily. Eventually you'll manage

Bump

>>20493056
Nobody worships meditation

>>20494447
that's exactly what I do instead of meditating.
guess it's the same with christfags fixation and actually doing god's work.

>sit down
>don't move
>close eyes
>focus on the breath
>breathe in
>breathe out
>goto 4
Isn't this all that is required?

>>20494777
Is this really enough

>>20494777
>>20495354
If it were that easy, all the myriad other methods would not have been developed.

>>20495354
If you're able to do that perfectly for long periods of time you've already developed samadhi. Most people don't start there.

How do Buddhists deal with ADHD while trying to meditate?

>>20486692
A nice description that I came across on the Nyingma wikipedia page. "Dzogchen seeks to understand the nature of mind without the subtle body practices and visualizations of other tantric forms, and Dzogchen tantras state that visualization practices are inferior to Dzogchen, which directly works with the nature of the mind itself."

>>20495602
Practice or picking a meditational object that's easier to focus on. Why? Is that something you have trouble with? What kinds of meditation have you tried?

>>20492815
So you were lost and you fell for the vajrayana meme, like most atheists.

>>20495395
>>20495438
Ok so what's the right way to go about it then?

>>20494447
>Nobody worships meditation
nobody for occultists like you means anybody

>>20497292
>occultists
The fuck are you talking about you mongoloid

>>20497383
you all identify as "nobody" in your "meditation", idiot. you were deceiving people in your comment.

>>20491866
On the contrary. The whole point of Buddhism, contrary to Jainism, Hinduism, Mahayana, Vajrayana, is that burning old karma is NOT needed, and in fact burning karma may be counterproductive since it's not even part of the path, which permits to focusing directly on enlightenment in this life. And there is no theoretical constraint saying enlightenment must take several lives.

>>20497390
You're making no sense.
Don't talk about subjects you're absolutely clueless about

>>20497426
So how do you reach enlightenment in this life?

>>20497554
keep pretending you don't understand, you blustering idiot that you are, you are just a "being nobody" and that's all.

>>20497049

Found this on /x/ (/omg/):
>Starting on Saturday July 9, we meet once a week at 10AM Eastern Time US to watch Lama Glenns Six Yogas teaching. Each recording is about 90 minutes long and provides a precise practice each week (manuals, Sadhanas etc. are also provided). After each teaching there will be a short break and then Gosia & Jonas will be guiding the practice for about an hour and answer any upcoming questions.
>Participants commit to do the given practice at least twice a day for 30 min, every day for the duration fo the program.
>16 weeks - 16 steps in the practice of Tummo & Co.
>Prerequisites:
>Usually a prerequisite is an initiation in one of the buddhist Dakini Tantras. This is not required, unless one wishes to continue the practice beyond the 16-week schedule.
>For those who want to continue the practice; we will provide an opportunity for the empowerment towards the end of the 16-week program.
https://pastebin.com/wXAysESD

>>20497570
kek take your seroquel you unhinged faggot

>>20497578
Do you have to be available during that specific period or will it be recorded and made available later? I'll be busy in July but this sounds quite interesting

>>20497574
>samsara
>mahayana

funny how you fags use sanskrit words in an english board, fucking wannabe gurus

>>20497595
lurk 2 years before posting, retard.

>>20497581
sorry i don't take antidepressants, maybe you psychotic "meditators" need that shit to fuck up your brains more and to ascend in an higher state of consciousness and to focus better on "being nobody", castaneda docet.

>>20497606
Cope and seethe schizo

>>20497592
>(While it is recommended to attend live, there will also be recordings made available after each teaching for seven days in case one misses a session or wants to rewatch it.)
https://lamaglenn-sixyogas.com/registration-page1653859577474

>>20497615
Too bad the recordings aren't permanent. Oh well
I think it would be better to get initiated into Vajrayana beforehand anyway, for reasons given earlier ITT

>>20497560
Just wake up, bro

>>20498264
How

>>20491981

>>20498956
He seems like a nice dude