/lit/ - Literature

>>20435920
I say yes. But others will say no but that's because Beowulf is really short. A day or two you can finish Beowulf so that isn't fair to compare to major epics. You have 3 arch's. The defense from the attack. The attack of the mother. And the dragon siege. They are all 10/10 I would say, in the sense of easy to read, enjoyable, enough tension and release to be satisfying but not like Tolkien that goes on for 10 pages about how dark a cave is and then when you see the light it's a relief. There's no release from the tension that strong in Beowulf, but there's also no effort of having to grind thru trash to get that payoff. It's a great epic short.

Also, consider it's a poem. Likely was performed with some ambient background music. That sort of puts it in a slightly different category.

>>20435920
I thought it was kinda boring. I get the historical significance but beyond that...

>>20436006
>t. Jewish nigger worshipper

>>20436041
Kek. I love wignat machismo. Never fails to make me chuckle.

>>20436047
>Wignat
Tell me you’re a member of the latinx/Changstein community with one word

>>20435920
>And can it be placed on equal footing besides the other major epic poems:
No, neither in technical merit or cultural importance. But it's still a brilliant work of art and central to the culture of the time.

It's folk art. You get the Anglo-Saxons when you read it.

>>20436068
>latinx/Changstein
Never heard of it. You reek of homosexuality for sure though. The stench of fatherlessness and LARP clings to you.

>>20436076
Mabinogion did more for me.

>>20436041
What is that even suppose to mean?

These are the other four epic poems that are usually not ranked as highly as others:

> epic of Gilgamesh
> song of Roland
> beowulf
> ovid's metamorphoses

What do you think of them and how would you rank them? Which is most deserving to rank besides Iliad and Odyssey, Aeneid, the divine comedy and paradise lost.

>>20436351
Metamorphoses is easily the best out of those four, and should be placed next to the other major epics

Beowulf is an extremely boring, short and uninteresting poem about a dude killing three monsters and then dying. At least it's brevity saves it from being a nightmare to read like the Faerie queene or Paradise Lost

>>20436047
It is the single most feared political position we have ever known, just announcing you are sympathetic to the cause is enough for people to justify violence.

>>20436559
It's this weird Frankensteinian abomination from the bowels of the 20th century that mainly attracts young, disillusioned men who never had real masculine rolemodel. I mean just look at that ridiculous image you posted. It's cringe and heavily disordered.

>>20436586
What it is does not matter, what is amusing is the fear it generates in people. Blood & Soil is a terrible thing to waste.

Now i expect you will counter about being a faceless cog in a machine, but you are less than that now. Better a cog in a machine that strengthens your people than a drone programmed to consune goyslop and goyshows, with no greater purpose.

>>20436708
You are proving my point here, mate. It's a spiritually disordered thing. It reaches no higher than race and that's just not enough. It's nihilism with extra steps. Your images are ugly. It's soulless trash.

>>20436724
How can it be disordered when it is one simple thing? Your people. That is it. Stronger together, weaker apart.

There are plenty of abstractions associated with it. Loyalty, honor, family. All of these abstract concepts can be further built upon. None of them have any real meaning anymore, each is repeatedly beaten when it is celebrated.

>>20436748
You said I'm less than a cog in a wheel. That's not true. I'm more than just flesh. My people united through what? Blood? Our blood or the blood of Christ? It's disordered in the sense that it reduces spirit to a mere expression of matter. It's moral relativism, giving each individual genepool a different moral imperative. It's nonsense and you can see it in how you treat death. Look at the SS-Totenschaedel. Doesn't it remind you of a 14 year old who likes to pretend he isn't scared of the world (and of death) by wearing scary looking clothing? By showing off emblems of death? Those won't defeat death. It's a cope.

>>20436775
>I'm more than just flesh.
You can say so, but every indication in Modern Western Society says you are not even worth that. You exist to consume. You are fed and kept amused for the benefit of others. Your flesh is worth nothing to them and going off averages and rising obesity, your flesh is worth even less to the average person. Obesity is proof that your flesh is worthless to you.

> My people united through what? Blood? Our blood or the blood of Christ?
Land, blood, culture, values, history, achievements, leaders, service and more. Because we have none of these in the West, all of these are replace with crude mockeries of what once stood in their place. As long as we watch the latest propaganda movie, consume the latest food craze, purchase the latest consumer good.

>It's nonsense and you can see it in how you treat death. Look at the SS-Totenschaedel. Doesn't it remind you of a 14 year old who likes to pretend he isn't scared of the world (and of death) by wearing scary looking clothing? By showing off emblems of death?
The only way to triumph over death is by leaving a legacy, a family, everything else is fleeting. Live a good life, leave a strong family. Edgy images on a basket weaving forum are just that, as the propaganda generally is. But the meaning of the movement that produced it, that is different.

>>20436824
I'm not obese by any stretch. I try to take care of my body as well as I can and the blood of my people and my family is far from meaningless to me. The important thing to understand is that it goes higher than that. The union between man and woman is an imitation of the Trinity, it serves bringing both partners closer to God. So does fatherhood and motherhood do. It's about glowing closer to God, it's not self-serving.

You can point out some of the problems current society faces but that doesn't make what solution you propose the correct one, especially given how reductive your assessment is.

You're ignoring the issue. Death comes for you, your children and everyone else. Having an earthly legacy is a beautiful thing but there's little guarantee for that. It could all be wiped away in a matter of seconds. Your understanding of "good" is is from all I can tell rootless as in lacking an anchor in reality. Your idea of the Logos never incarnated. There's nothing but a failed idea you have to offer, an idea that pretends to be the result of tradition while it really isn't anything but a crudely sewn together rag in the face of dying Monarchism. Taking from this and that all that seems practical, mashing it together into an abomination a racial purist would have to hate if he wasn't so blinded.

>>20436883
>The union between man and woman is an imitation of the Trinity, it serves bringing both partners closer to God. So does fatherhood and motherhood do. It's about glowing closer to God, it's not self-serving.
This is meaningless, all of these institutions predate the cobbled together Christianity you follow in life. It is truly the disordered spirituality you called out earlier. Go back five hundred years before the birth of Christ and read what they shamelessly stole for their crude theology. The scapegoating and sacrifice from Judaism, the stoicism self control of Ancient Greece, the virgin birth and resurrection. None of it is unique or true. Or even moral.

>You're ignoring the issue. Death comes for you, your children and everyone else.
It does, and those who are remembered by family are the only ones that are remembered. Without a family you are forgotten. Eventually they too will forget as generations move on. This is the natural way, I do not fear death, I fear not experiencing life. A traditional life that is increasingly denied by the consumerist culture foisted upon us all. Of all you level at us, this accusation is the most false, we do not fear dying, only that we die without having experienced life or if I must die earlier, for a cause I believe in, one that will celebrate the sacrifice and make it worthwhile.

>Your understanding of "good" is is from all I can tell rootless as in lacking an anchor in reality.
Because we've not discussed good, why would we? You're moving the discussion away from the place it began.

>A failed idea you have to offer, an idea that pretends to be the result of tradition while it really isn't anything but a crudely sewn together rag in the face of dying Monarchism. Taking from this and that all that seems practical.
This is the crux of the matter, this is what the West and Christianity represents as it enters a brutal, dying age. Both Western culture and the religion that supported it is burning down around us in the name of equity and equality. Of meekness and submission, all the virtues that Christ himself espoused and demanded in order to better serve God. You have nothing left to offer as the real world sets in around your once cherished ideas. Your Creed worked for a long time when areas where homogeneous, safe and still held on to values that overlapped heavily with what I now espouse.

But in the face of multiculturalism and the ethno-cultural free-for-fall it lasted less than one hundred years. Half of that if you consider the Civil Rights Movement the point in which we all engaged as close to equals in terms of dignity, ability as we would ever get.

>>20436960
Everyone knows the Jews where corrupt. Christ himself came and reprimanded them. The whole idea of everything being stolen and cobbled together in the case of Christianity doesn't add up. It has both historical and logical consistency and the fact that not every single portion of dogma hails directly from revelation doesn't make it inconsistent, considering the objectivity of our reality. Things can be integrated in a system that's founded on revelation because that system is logically coherent and thus things have their place.

You do fear death and if you aren't aware of it now, you will be later on. Your thinking is still extremely rash but the vigor of youth will leave you before long and perspective will change the more you experience the dying of your flesh. When your body is fully broken and your breathing come to an end, if there isn't a spark of you left somewhere and when or outside of that, a spark that could appreciate the fruits of your labor, how is any of it real then?

Christianity isn't dying. A lot of heretical sects are. The abomination that is protestantism will die. The Catholic Church, despite what liberal media tries to make you believe, is intact. The cause of the decline of Western civilization is at its core protestantism, a rebellion against hierarchy, a Monk naming himself Priest over Lust and Pride. All the madness you are witnessing, what was once called Social Justice culture is a further secularized continuation of protestantism, rebellion against Christ and his Church. This protestant dissolution continues on and on and results in all the materialism and consumerism under the banner of an earthly paradise.

You are very "current" in your thinking which in itself isn't bad but tracing things back to where they went awry is what ought be done and if you do it properly, you'll end up where I pointed.

>>20436775
No interest in this exchange but symbols of death weren't edgy in the past like they are now. The edginess is largely from fashion LARP based on commonplace motifs of the past.

>>20437197
>The whole idea of everything being stolen and cobbled together in the case of Christianity doesn't add up.
Yes it does, nothing is unique to it. Born to a virgin, risen after 3 days, 12 special followers. The story is ancient more than you know.

>It has both historical and logical consistency
The very premise it is built on contradicts itself. We were condemned and sinful because of the folly of Adam and Eve, now you are being pardoned by part of the Godhead sending 1/3 of itself down to sacrifice itself for the sins it originally condemned us for. But we are undeserving of this. Because we are sinful and evil, yet made in God's image.

>Things can be integrated in a system that's founded on revelation because that system is logically coherent and thus things have their place.
Revelation is not a thing, if it happened now they would be called sick, mentally ill or just crazy.

>Your thinking is still extremely rash but the vigor of youth will leave you before long and perspective will change the more you experience the dying of your flesh.
I'm no longer young, no longer old, entering the middle period of life that is the most meaningful. I truly love it, and what I have built. That aside, this is also ad-hominem and utterly irrelevant to the discussion we're having beyond trying to undermine me, not my argument or position.

>When your body is fully broken and your breathing come to an end, if there isn't a spark of you left somewhere and when or outside of that, a spark that could appreciate the fruits of your labor, how is any of it real then?
Do you know what you're trying to say here? When I die, I hope to die happy in the knowledge I lived a good life and made it better for those i love and will be remembered if only for a while. My oxygen starved brain would not care what was real and what was not by then.

>Christianity isn't dying. A lot of heretical sects are. The abomination that is protestantism will die.
It is all the same, friend. It was born of the failures of your Church that offered nothing but stubborn, blind obedience. Wherein the very same material conditions that you bemoan now allowed those with them to take advantage of the church and by indulgences, mercies and allowance for all manner of disgusting behavior.

>>20435962
The Iliad was recited by rhapsodes who were a special type of singer, and they did it while making a rhythm with a stick in accordance with the dactylic hexameter rhythm, it’s not that different.

>>20437197
>The Catholic Church, despite what liberal media tries to make you believe, is intact.
It truly is not, it it is losing believers and followers all over the world. Ever since the systemic abuse of children was revealed, the rich hordes of wealth it keeps from its honest and faithful flock.

>The cause of the decline of Western civilization is at its core protestantism, a rebellion against hierarchy, a Monk naming himself Priest over Lust and Pride. All the madness you are witnessing, what was once called Social Justice culture is a further secularized continuation of protestantism, rebellion against Christ and his Church. This protestant dissolution continues on and on and results in all the materialism and consumerism under the banner of an earthly paradise.
This is what happens when your religion comes in to contact with material conditions, it has to adapt as it offers no real structure or substitute to the consumerism on offer. It says wait now and you will be rewarded in the next life, but if you fall off you could risk it all. You might be saved, or you might not, you'll never know until it is too late to do anything about it. You are told to reject family, your son, your father, your brother all if they come before your God. This is abhorrent. Your Church rejects the wife and precludes the family from its priesthood, the most anti-biblical thing one can imagine. At it's core, the Catholic Church is a perversion of the noble human spirit, it denies all the things it needs and offers nothing in return.

>You are very "current" in your thinking which in itself isn't bad but tracing things back to where they went awry is what ought be done and if you do it properly, you'll end up where I pointed.
You have no idea what it is you are talking about, you are hurling any manner of slur, detraction and comment in the hopes that something sticks, none of it has.

Even Orthodoxy, the closest thing to universal truth one might find in today's world, is a shadow of what it could be.

>>20437293
Your first paragraph is simply wrong and a psy-op pushed known to be pushed by Zeitgeist and such. Treat Horn took all of it apart a while ago, it's on YouTube and probably elsewhere. I can look up the link if you want.

I'm not gonna get into it here much but it's consistent. The idea that it's God who's condemning us and not ourselves through our actions is pretty childish.

Revelation is a logical necessity because otherwise higher truth would be fully out of reach and I really don't care about the opinion of shrinks over that of Priests.

You can't really remove yourself and your own perception and how it relates to reality from the discussion.

I am aware of what I'm saying. I'm talking consequences and that they have to be felt.

The Church as a whole didn't fail. Men sinned but the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. The Catholic Church is still there, still strong.

The Catholic Church is attracting lots of younger people. This trend will continue. I'm not worried.

In this life too Christianity holds true. The teachings are immensely valuable in any aspect of life. Putting God first literally means the to do the right thing. Family is a very important thing but as I told you earlier, your family is not the be all and end all. There's good reason for Priests not to get married. If you cared, the Church itself explains it very well (as it does anything, really).

It's funny that you are telling me I know nothing while you have no answer surpassing genetics. You've put me on the defensive or rather I let you do it in favor of having an interaction. If I were to press you further than I did already the conversation would simply break down because you don't have an answer to any of the essential questions. You are dodging the problem of eternal life. It doesn't work.

>>20437393
>Your first paragraph is simply wrong and a psy-op pushed known to be pushed by Zeitgeist and such.
It's not, it's based on writing from the bible to classical thinkers.

>The idea that it's God who's condemning us and not ourselves through our actions is pretty childish.
Original Sin is a disgusting doctrine, the idea that infants are born in to sin is repugnant.

>Revelation is a logical necessity because otherwise higher truth would be fully out of reach and I really don't care about the opinion of shrinks over that of Priests.
Revelation is a logical necessity when you have no other way to justify your illogical morals and values. Higher truth is easily seen, family, blood and soil.

>The Church as a whole didn't fail. Men sinned but the gates of hell shall not prevail against the Church. The Catholic Church is still there, still strong.
The Church is crumbling, you have a one that retired for covering up institutionalized child rape. The current one is younger and almost marxist in his thinking. Your church, thankfully is dying.

>Putting God first literally means the to do the right thing.
No, putting God first is the way to purposefully ignore the right thing and do what you've been conditioned to do.

>Family is a very important thing but as I told you earlier, your family is not the be all and end all.
Yes it is, if a Divine being commanded me to sacrifice my child to his glory I would deny him with my every breath. You celebrate the prophet who did.

>There's good reason for Priests not to get married. If you cared, the Church itself explains it very well.
It is a secular decision, to prevent the burden of family weighing the Church down. Can't keep all those luxuries if you have to pay for the raising, education and support of families who can't use responsible birth control.

>If I were to press you further than I did already the conversation would simply break down because you don't have an answer to any of the essential questions.
Please do press me, if you can challenge what I believe I look forward to finding a solution or altering my beliefs. This is what led me to this position I hold.

>You are dodging the problem of eternal life. It doesn't work.
There is no eternal life, spiritual or otherwise. Just as we don't remember ancestors, we will not be remembered. What does matter is you pass on a living legacy, children equipped to deal with whatever this world may through at them.

>>20437452
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Idv-4WeJFQ

>>20437197
>The Catholic Church, despite what liberal media tries to make you believe, is intact
Yes, just keep plan trusting, that will surely fix the Pope and all of the Cardinals being homosexual Jewish freemasonic pedophile Communists.

>>20437452
You're pretty much wrong about everything you say and too much work for me to do much good here from where I am standing right now. I've linked you the video >>20437479 rebutting the claim the Christian myth copying from pagan myth. Watch it if you care about truth.
>>20437526
Yawn.

>>20435920
My rating of these:

1) Iliad
2) Divine Comedy (Close tie w/ 1)
3) Beowulf
4) Paradise Lost
5) Odyssey
6) Aeneid

They're all worth reading, except the Aeneid.

>>20436775
mutt hands typed this post

I just realized I'm probably the only one in this thread who has read any of these books. Please read more /lit/

>>20437479
I'm not going to listen to a fundamentalist explain why his stories are completely unique and different to all the other ones that are the same. This is how religion works, it is organic.

>>20437555
Even if they were not taken wholesale from other religions in the Mediterranean, it would not prove their truth, divinity or moral value. I hope you see the truth.

>>20435920
I really enjoyed Beowulf, it was an easy read. I don't think it quite compares to the Iliad and Odyssey, both in scope, age and merit, but it is a bedrock of Western canon that many great authors have looked to for inspiration.

>>20436078
What shade of brown are you?

>>20436724
Race is spiritual for European people you idiotic shitskinned subhuman. Fuck off back to your 3rd world shithole with your faggot immigrant parents, stinking brown turd.

>>20436047
>wignat machismo
Stop using words that don't have the correct context because you want to sound smart.

>>20438094
Calm your tits fedboy

>>20436586
Ethnic nationalism was the standard for all of history until after ww2 where the jewish global bankers consolidated their control of the world, they seek to make everyone into mutt slaves like the jews.

>>20436078
>homosexuality
>>20436078
>fatherlessness
>>20436078
>LARP
Nice, retarded schizo is projecting again.
Do you fucking leftist ever grow up? Or do you just throw insults around because you have nothing in your life?

>>20438111
Fact: your skin is the colour of shit.

>>20436078
>schizophrenic antiwhite leftist shitskin is smelling things through the monitor

>>20438120
You glow, sir. It is tiring watching you destroy conversations.

>>20438134
I'm just making fun of brown people, what's wrong with that?

>>20438169
It damages the reasons we want to separate and you purposefully ruin any conversation we may have. You glow, you are there to damage and provoke.

>>20438112
> Ethnic nationalism was the standard for all of history until after ww2

If that was genuinely true then no one would have dared to convert to a Jew religion like Christianity. Nationalism is a 19th century invention.

>>20438198
>If that was genuinely true then no one would have dared to convert to a Jew religion like Christianity. Nationalism is a 19th century invention.

Christianity was the first of many nails that splintered the concept of a nation. Previously religion was a general thing, the Gods favored the bold, the strong, the wise and the fortunate. They received praise for their actions, hoping the Gods would notice.

Christianity did the inverse, it promised reward for meekness, cowardice and turning the other cheek. As said earlier >>20436960, in the face of a multi-ethnic nation, Christianity failed to last even a century. This is a far cry from the Holy Roman Empire or even the Byzantine. As none of these contained any serious demographic of Africans in anything resembling positions of power. Had we not converted to Christianity I imagine life would be far better as the morals and virtues espoused in the native religion are far superior to the ones espoused by Christ.

Read Tolkien's essay on it
>>20436351
Song of Roland is awful, I couldn't stop laughing while reading it

>>20438198
So nations should forget that they are comprised of distinct ethnic groups and open their borders and ruin their societies through mixing with 3rd world retards, because a shitty jewish religion gradually took over europe over the span of 1000 years?

>>20438231
Absolutely based.

>the brown turd got its feelings hurt

>>20438198
>Nationalism is a 19th century invention.

If that would true there would be a single state among all near-alike kin. All of Asia, all of India, all of Europe, all of the Middle-East. What you said maybe the stupidest thing said tonight. Even after the fed exposed himself with shit-flinging slurs.

Beowulf's storytelling is like that of a fucking Marvel movie. Just violence and boasting, from an antiquated barbaric culture. But maybe I'm just not "le based trad macho man" so I can't understand the super deep literary merits of a naked man fighting a monster.

>brown turd had its feelings hurt

>>20438256
Ya you're pretty stupid. Also it's a white man's story soo......

>>20438256
It is a poetic story meant to be boldly spoken aloud, not read silently. It was to lodge in the mind and extol those who heard it to confidence and surety of action. You appear to have missed it as you have puberty.

>>20435920
The connection it can boast to the Northern European can not be underestimated, it was recorded to written word over 1000 years ago, it is strongly thought to go back maybe half again as far back as a spoken story.

>>20438198
You do realize that Jesus was turned into a Saxon warrior for the purpose of converting germanic tribes, right? Heiland was instrumental for this. Ethnos literally meant nation the moment it was conceived in antiquity. People converted largely out of lies, desperation, and threat of death, especially in the Roman Empire where it was made illegal to practice your ancestral religion. Christianization has only flourished among niggers looking for handouts from retarded Americans… who have no problem portraying Jesus as a black man. Catholics tried to convert the Japanese by portraying Jesus as a Japanese man and they called it bullshit lmao.

>>20438272
The Odyssey is also a white man's story and it's much better than Beowulf. Wait, let me guess - Greeks aren't huwhite unlike your epic badass nordic warriors.
>>20438276
This doesn't disprove my initial statement at all. So I was right about it just being boisterous vikangz babble. It's on the same level of nigger "poetry" like rap.

>>20438231
>>20438234
>>20438247

If nationalism was important in the past as you’re saying then no one would have dared to convert to a foreign religion.

Also most of those nations you describe were created after colonialism.

Nordicism is fucking retarded, anyone who is proud of the fact that their ancestors were raping murdering savages has no right to complain about niggers raping and murdering in across their country today.

>>20438295
Jesus was certainly not turned to a Saxon warrior in the Heiland. Quite the opposite.

> Scholars disagree over whether the overall tone of the Heliand lends to the text being an example of a Germanized Christianity or a Christianized Germany. Some historians believe that the German traditions of fighting and enmity are so well pronounced as well as an underlying message of how it is better to be meek than mighty that the text lends more to a Germanized Christianity. Other scholars argue that the message of meekness is so blatant that it renders the text as a stronger representation of a Christianized Germany.[6] This discussion is important because it reveals what culture was more pervasive to the other.

Also it wasn’t Saxon warrior aristocracy that Christians are even concerned with convincing in the Heiland. The Saxon warrior aristocracy were the first to yield to Charlemagne and Christianity. It was the two lower Saxon castes that were the concern.

> The position of the Saxon aristocracy was also strengthened by Charlemagne’s new codification of Saxon tribal law in the Lex Saxonum, which widened the social gap between nobility and the rest. Much of the Saxon aristocracy seems to have accepted the fact of Carolingian domination at an early stage, but enough resistance remained at a tribal level for the war to continue. In return for handing over hostages from the ranks of free men and litt (half-free), the existing Saxon tribal aristocracies mostly seem to have retained their lands and status. In fact the next phase of the struggle against Carolingian domination seems largely to have been fought by the middle and lower ranks of Saxon society, while much if not most of the Saxon aristocracy supported the Frankish conquerors.

>>20438306
>Wait, let me guess - Greeks aren't huwhite unlike your epic badass nordic warriors.
Wrong guess, dumbass. Homer, Hesiod and others frequently portray the gods and demigods as having huwhite features.

>>20438306
>This doesn't disprove my initial statement at all. So I was right about it just being boisterous vikangz babble. It's on the same level of nigger "poetry" like rap.

You strike me as attacking it because you lack sufficient examples from your own culture. That is understandable, but still contemptable.

>>20438319
>nationalism was important in the past as you’re saying then no one would have dared to convert to a foreign religion


>>20438319
As said Christianity had to appeal to the poor, downtrodden peasants. Jesus cares for -you-, this life is only brief the life to come will be paradise for your suffering now. All of this was celebrating slave morality, to quote a famous german and stood in contrast to what every religion prior to that did, it celebrated the strong, the leader and the warrior.

>>20438319
Do you understand that Christianity was forced upon most people, you idiotic nigger?

>>20438333
>>20438306
Cope harder nonwhite turd.

>>20438357
>You strike me as attacking it because you lack sufficient examples from your own culture. That is understandable, but still contemptable.
I'm glad that my culture isn't a bunch of hypocritical barbarians larping as the pinnacle of civilization.

>>20438360
I got trips and you didn't therefore fate has chosen my argument as the correct one.

>>20438350
Wow you are seriously fucking stupid. Are you black?

>>20438365
>my culture
You have none. What language are you writing in, monkey?

>>20438367
You will never be white.

>thread about ancient Europeans
>swarmed by insecure shitskins
Classic

This thread has to be filled with Jews pretending to be wignats to make all wignats look retarded. There's no possible way I share an ideology with these people.

>>20438365
>I'm glad that my culture isn't a bunch of hypocritical barbarians larping as the pinnacle of civilization.

All cultures have these origins. There are those who have risen above these humble origins and those have managed to backslide and become worse. One has cathedrals, philosophy and rocketry, the others do not.

>>20438350
You mean the Saxon aristocracy that was largely beheaded with the rest converting under penalty of death otherwise…?

>>20438378
>uses the term wignat
>won't even point out specific disagreements
What is your point.

>>20438387
You're responding to an antiwhite with a low IQ or they are intentionally being disingenuous (happens quite often on here)

>>20438295
> Ethnos literally meant nation the moment it was conceived in antiquity. People converted largely out of lies, desperation, and threat of death, especially in the Roman Empire where it was made illegal to practice your ancestral religion

So you’re now calling your ancestors stupid and cowardly? Sounds just like modern euroshits: meek and submissive. Too afraid to stand up to Christianity in the past and now to niggers and Jews.

>>20438397
>gets BTFO
>all it can do is seethe about being a shitskinned subhuman
Thanks for the laugh pablo, or binder or whatever your gay monkey name is. Your entire lineage are irrelevant NPC slaves, the most exciting thing to ever happen to it was your retard immigrant parents were allowed to enter a white country and you learned how to speak the white man's language.

>>20438357
You’ve clearly not read you history because when it came to Germanics, it was typically the kings who converted to Christianity first and then later imposed it on the rest of the population. In fact, the Germanics who resisted Christianity the most were the Saxons who had no king like other Germanic tribes, so it was harder to impose Christianity on them due to this.

>>20438412
>Your entire lineage are irrelevant NPC slaves
If you're brown or asian this is generally true unfortunately.

>>20435920
hello i dont read that good
what makes these stories "poems", they dont even rhyme
Im not trollying

>>20438415
>first
Wait... are you saying....Germanic kings were the ones who decided when the population would officially convert and everyone followed after? DDDURRRR????
>saxons didn't have a king
What the fuck are you even doing here you moron?

There is nothing further to be gained here. It has been bombed by the usual subjects who will now mob any who post with logical facilies. You can not win here.

>>20438445
>There is nothing further to be gained here. It has been bombed by the usual subjects who will now mob any who post with logical facilies. You can not win here.

>>20438272
>>20438276
>>20438360
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>>20438394
All this namecalling and you're saying that the other side is using logical fallacies? Just a hypocritical as a kike.

>>20436540
Metamorphoses is not an epic, it’s an anthology of poems following a common theme of transformation. Structurally and narratively, Beowulf has more in common with Homer despite employing a a drastically different form of poetry

>>20438357
Christians won out because they possessed the virtue of fortitude. They didn’t believe victory or might made someone right. It is those virtues that you praise in paganism that ironically killed off paganism.

Anglo-Saxon conversion is an example of this. Edwin, the king of Northumbria, converted to Christianity. He was later killed in a battle against Penda. As a result, the still semi-pagan Northumbria apostatized from Christianity. Two brothers (Oswald and Oswiu), who were the nephews of Edwin and raised in a monastery, reclaimed the throne of Northumbria and defeated an outsider who had taken Northumbria. Oswald was later killed by Penda. However, the defeat did not lead to Northumbria to apostatise this time around and that was mostly because the person who took power was Oswiu, who was literally raised in a monastery and probably taught that a defeat is no excuse to abandon one’s religion and that it should be seen as a test of faith instead. Oswiu later defeated and killed Penda. Penda’s son then converted to Christianity. From then on, Northumbria and Mercia remained Christian (with no relapse to paganism being recorded).

>>20438431
The continental Saxons didn’t have a king. I think you’re getting confused with Anglo-Saxons who did have kings.

>>20438387
> You mean the Saxon aristocracy that was largely beheaded

Saxon aristocracy were not the ones beheaded. They were integrated into the Frankish nobility while the rest of the Saxons were turned into serfs and their democratic marklohe assembly abolished

> The marklohe assembly was abolished, and Carolingian structures were imposed on saxony, including rule by converted Saxon nobles who became counts representing imperial overlordship.

The beheading incident you speak of was a punishment for an ambush. It was also quite a civilised affair so far as punishment for rebellion goes.

> The Frankish commanders Adalgis, Gallo and Worad had reached or were nearing the river Elbe when they learned that a Saxon uprising had started behind them, apparently targeting Christian priests in particular. According to the Revised Frankish Annals, ‘they abandoned the route by which they had been intending to advance against the Slavs and marched at speed, with the east Frankish troops, towards the place where they had heard the Saxons had gathered.’

> … It seems most likely that Widukind lured this part of the Carolingian army into launching a sudden charge, which appeared to the three commanders to be the right tactic at the time. Under this scenario the three were drawn into a trap or ambush in which the advantages enjoyed by well-equipped, well-trained and disciplined cavalry were simply swamped by the Saxon infantry’s greater numbers.

> When news of this defeat reached Charlemagne’s court, the king ‘judged that there must be not a moment’s delay; swiftly collecting together an army, he entered Saxony.’

> In fact, even many Saxons may have been shocked by their own success and realized that the consequences would be dire. So, as Charlemagne marched north, many Saxon leaders assembled near the already significant fortified settlement of Verden, close to the confluence of the Weser and Aller rivers. However, they had not gathered to fight but to surrender. When Charlemagne arrived, these Saxon leaders handed over as many of the rebels as could be found and identified. Widukind of Westphalia was not there. He and his immediate followers had already fled north.

>>20435920
I am ripper, tearer, slasher, gouger. I am the teeth in the darkness; the talons in the night. Mine is strength... and lust... and power.

>>20436041
>>20436047
>>20436068
>>20436078
>>20438115
Why do you faggots shit up every single thread? Seriously, how do you derive pleasure from this? Please off yourselves.

>>20437702
at least you admit being a backpeddaling weakling

>>20438231
>>20438242
retarded and tranny take

>>20441277
It is objectively the truth. It was not Christianity that allowed Europeans to dominate, they did so in spite of it. Now we may never see success again as pastors and the religious call Africans and dregs of human society brother, over their near-kin who have lived side by side for generations.

It is tauntamount to inviting Grendel in to the hall. Then ejecting your finest warriors in anger when they raise the alarm that your newest guest has eaten the children.

>>20441392

>>20441374
they were not dominating before christianity. At most they were killing random barbarians in their specific region. your greasy wops self-hating ramblings are not an argument.

>>20438370
no argument subhuman. try harder next time.

>>20436041
based

>>20436724
>mate
Brit detected, opinion discarded.

>>20441695
Northern European shipbuilding was second to none, as was their physicality, they were able to cross the Atlantic Ocean hundreds of years before another would. When shipbuilders would only cross rivers and inland seas, they crossed an ocean.

Everything Christianity was built upon, Ancient Greece, everything the modern West was (until recently) predicated upon was not at all Christian.

Christianity has failed, as it always would, when embraced by the world. It is globalism. It favors brothers in Christ over brothers in blood.

It is repugnant, as it should be to all men of good morals and mind.

>>20443162
>they were able to cross the Atlantic Ocean hundreds of years before another would
Yes because the other continent was much, much closer to Scandinavia than it was to southern Europe, due to how the Earth curves. It's an impressive feat. But not as impressive as you'd think

>>20443192
Christian Rome was closer yet it did not. The feat is beyond any of its age and one that has not been replicated under near conditions since. I suspect you are a member of a certain tribe who's nature is to undermine or you are the agent of said tribe and have been deluded in to thinking your ancestors are worthy of scorn.

>>20437322
>Even Orthodoxy, the closest thing to universal truth one might find in today's world, is a shadow of what it could be.

Orthodoxy, if you mean Eastern Orthodox Churches, is a joke. 2/3 of high clergy were on payrolls of communist secret services, religious culture is getting americanized day by day, in last 30 years there were 2 schism, half of the churches are in conflict with each other it is all one big jokes. On top of it church limits its activity to only clerical inner circles abandoning laity to only 2hour service on Sundays.
Not that history is much better.


Communists should have done faithful a favor and ended it all so that people could look elsewhere for their spiritual needs.

>>20435920
1.It's alright.
2.Fuck no!

>>20435920
ic hæbbe hit ane on eald englisc geræden

and gese la, hit is heahlic kino. ne meahton adelihte d*ne and þeodlandisce butan wyscan þæt hi efenmicel leoþ wyrcan meahten

>>20435920
ic hæbbe hit ane on eald englisc geræden

and gese la, hit is heahlic kino. adelihte d*ne and þeodlandisce wyscað þæt hi efenmicel leoþ wyrcan meahten

>>20443286
>ic hæbbe hit ane on eald englisc geræden
I have read in old English
>and gese la, hit is heahlic kino
and see there, it's really kino.

What does the rest mean? My German skills only get me so far right now.

>>20443307
>ic hæbbe hit ane on eald englisc geræden
I have it only in old english read.

>and gese la, hit is heahlic kino
and yes (emphatic particle), it is supreme kino

>adelihte d*ne and þeodlandisce wyscað þæt hi efenmicel leoþ wyrcan meahten
filthy danes and continentals wish that they [an] equally-great poem work might

or less literally,

filthy danes and continentals wish they could have written as good a poem

>>20443333
"on eald englisc an" might work better than "ane on eald englisc" actually

>>20443333
English should have stayed like this.

>>20435920
It's up there, but its subjective on your personal opinion.

*shoves Beowulf off the table*
Here's real literature

>>20443333
>wish they could have written as good a poem

>>20444887
what

>>20444926
Beowulf was originally written in Sweden

>>20444935
no it wasn't, it was written in the 8th century in mercia

the mythohistorical events the text is based on did take place in denmark and sweden, though

>>20443162
> they were able to cross the Atlantic Ocean hundreds of years before another would.
it was christians scandinavians who did it you illiterate retard. Also their travel was much easier with island hopping.
>was not at all Christian
you are absolutely retarded. if anything modern gay democracy is thanks to pagan greekoid faggotry. Everything else from medieval and even enlightments was from christian thought and institutions.
> over brothers in blood.
pagans didn't give a shit about their brothers. Vikings selling their european brethren to arba merchants and Romans genociding celts or Alexander encouraging race-mixing is good counter argument of your retarded post. Keep being absolute low IQ mongoloid like every single neo-pgana is.
>Christian Rome was closer yet it did not.
No it was not and even then pagan Rome was in the same place you retarded monkey.

It's extremely entertaining, but in terms of literary depth it's not as substantial as the others in your list.

>>20445167
>it was christians scandinavians who did it you illiterate retard. Also their travel was much easier with island hopping.
Then why did they leave pagan monuments, not Christian monuments? Stop lying.

>you are absolutely retarded. if anything modern gay democracy is thanks to pagan greekoid faggot. Everything else from medieval and even enlightenment was from christian thought and institutions.
Christianity is the marxism of religions, we are all equal before God, at least pre-christian religions had some form of merit and hierarchy for the laymen. They celebrated sex, the family and power.

>pagans didn't give a shit about their brothers. Vikings selling their european brethren to arba merchants and Romans genociding celts or Alexander encouraging race-mixing is good counter argument of your retarded post. Keep being absolute low IQ mongoloid like every single neo-pgana is.
All cultures did so, though many also formed tribes and confederations. Slavery was always a punishment in these societies for breaking the laws. Conquest made Europe strong, now it is weak because of the inter-mingling of the peoples that Christians encourage with the bizarre stipulation as long as they are legal.

>No it was not and even then pagan Rome was in the same place you retarded monkey.
Rome conquered pagan Britain, this is further west and closer to the New World than any of Scandinavia. Please read more.

>>20446344
>Then why did they leave pagan monuments
what pagan monuments? Leif Erikson was christian you dumbfuck.
>Christianity is the marxism of religions
more like chad of religions which dominates pagancuckery.
>All cultures did so
you are not providing any examples faggot.
>Slavery was always a punishment in these societies for breaking the laws.
vikings were slavers you dishonest cuck.
>Conquest made Europe strong
yes. that's why their biggest conquests were under christianity you illiterate mongrel.
>now it is weak because of the inter-mingling
because secularism retarrd.
>Rome conquered pagan Britain
yes when they were pagans and it's still not closer then island. you are illiterate not only in history but also in geography you subhuman pagancuck.

>>20447214
I'm not pagan, I'm anti-Christian, please understand this I can not make it any clear. Your type always gets vitriolic when your immoral creed is questioned.

>Leif Erikson was christian you dumbfuck.
He converted during his adulthood, the traits and life that allowed a man to row across the Atlantic was his native religion and values. Not the Christian one.

>more like chad of religions which dominates
Turn the other cheek, meek shall inherit the earth, brothers in Christ not in blood, all equal before God. Even now we are weak and feeble without God, this is immoral and victim mentality. Slave morality.

>vikings were slavers you dishonest cuck.
Yes, yes they were. But this does not preclude people from being placed in slavery for breaking specific rules.

>yes. that's why their biggest conquests were under Christianity you illiterate mongrel.
No, the biggest conflicts were either side of Christianities heyday. During peak Christendom we went backwards and discarded knowledge we had painfully won through blood and toil.

>because secularism retarrd.
Christianity encourages the break down of all borders and all enjoin as one. Secularism promotes the family, blood, soil and heritage. Your religion says all of these do matter, all that matters is your reward for sacrificing all of these.

>yes when they were pagans and it's still not closer then island.
You're confusing yourself, friend. Where did these nordic sailors come from originally? The space between western Britain and Ireland is short.

Based on the sexual insults that you end every wrong summation with, I can only assume you are not in a position to have a healthy relationship to it. I hope you overcome this and find happiness away from the religion that made you miserable.

>>20447890
>I'm not pagan, I'm anti-Christian
So what are you when dealing in positives?
>brothers in Christ not in blood
It's both. Different layers of identity.
>Slave morality
Slave to the Most High. You are a slave to all the lower things.
>Christianity encourages the break down of all borders and all enjoin as one.
Not really, no. It's very hierarchical.

You are a joke, honestly. All that pseudo-intellectual posturing will get you nowhere. You don't understand Christianity and you don't want to because it would mean for you to face your own sinfulness.

>>20448296
>when dealing in positives?
A father, a son and a brother.

>It's both. Different layers of identity.
One of these is real, the other is used as a means to subvert the real blood and flesh connection you have with those of your kin.

>Slave to the Most High. You are a slave to all the lower things.
The most high is family, everything else is secondary to that. You are commanded to sacrifice that if it for a moment comes between you and Christ.

>Not really, no. It's very hierarchical
Read your bible, their is a reason why the Catholic Church is considered the anti-Christ. The lay-member has no hierarchy, there is no difference from your high church and the lowest barbaric African cult, as long as they both worship Christ, they are all equal. It is a parody.

>>20447890
Anti-christian sounds like a seether who cries when he is faced with something superior.
Eriksons travels were fueled by missionary works. Coping won't save you here.
Christians don't need emty platitudes of strenth to crush every uppity pagan. Might makes right according to your kind so accept your eternal meekness and impotence. Pagans learnd their lesson.
So you agree that pagans were traitorous cucks who sold their kind to slavery.

Lmao secularism has nothing but empty idea of nation. Racialism is not included there. Family bonds is irrelevant there and its mostly your headcanon.

These nordic sailors had a great starting point in iceland retard.

Your projection is irrelevant. My frustration comes when someone acts knowledgable in matters that he knows nothing about.

>>20448599
He is a total simpleton.

>>20435920
Can't be compared, but honestly Divine Comedy and Paradise Lost don't belong there either way.

>>20438474
>posts political strife
>calls it a triumph of Christian virtue
It is impossible to argue with you golems.

>>20435920
>And can it be placed on equal footing besides the other major epic poems:
Not in cultural importance.

But it's traditional poetry and directly comparable to Homer at least being both Indo-european. But that's more a cultural and language thing. I don't know if it's worth reading except in the original language. It's different for those you listed because of their influence. You should know about them, not so much read them, but the quickest way to do that is read a translation and maybe commentary. And it's nice if the translation is decent lit in its own right.

>>20438474
Christianity spread because of politics. A powerful pseudo-empire. The ruling class had no problems converting nominally to get the church's endorsement (especially in contrast to those who did not have the church's endorsement). Everything else comes after and is a result of this purely political, power gaming stuff that often involved extreme brutality and imperialism.

Aside from this, Christianity greatly softened the sensibilities of Europeans, eroded classism, introduced greater learning, eventually got rid of slavery, and introduced greater centralisation and state power (possibly because they are operating off Roman models, which are considerably more centralised and absolute).

>>20450081
>(possibly because they are operating off Roman models, which are considerably more centralised and absolute).
On this point. The heathens didn't have this concept of absolute power or authority. It was always contingent on performance and mutual benefit.

>>20438232
Go ahead, say that to this man's face and see what happens, you foul villainous pagan.

Anyway Roland is quite interesting to read just as a window into the time and its values, literary and otherwise, and it has a bit of fun with its verse form, calling it clever would be too much probably but it demonstrates some level of aesthetic awareness and intent. The story and language in general could definitely be considered laughably unsophisticated from a modern reader's POV, but many writers and artists, such as the pre-Raphaelites and subsequently the Modernists, Pound in particular, felt that this simplicity had a great deal of value to offer us. If it does end up interesting you, it also functions as an introduction to a whole interconnected epic cycle, which again may have more historical value than real literary worth from our perspective, but either way it is a fertile ground for study and insight.

In my view literature can't be separated from history so I don't support the idea of writing off things like this, but people have different ways of viewing literature so if you don't care at all about that angle then yeah it may not be for you.

>>20450164
Oops file didn't work, here's the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5SDKsaYCv1o

>>20449018
>pagancuck larper
thinks his opinion matters. Divine comedy is better then all of them btw