/lit/ - Literature

It makes an analytical argument for antinatalism which ultimately fails because we can't know non-existence > existence.

https://youtu.be/puq4nDAvuG0

Just watch Inmendham vids instead.

>>20398621
>It makes an analytical argument for antinatalism which ultimately fails because we can't know non-existence > existence.
That isn't the problem with antinatalism. The problem with antinatalism is that it's correct in it's assessment that life is bad, but it has no solution. Suicide is out of the question because when people commit suicide they increase the pain of the world for those who were around them, or those who have to clean up after them, and human beings can no more be convinced to stop having children than they can be convinced to stop eating food or shitting and pissing. Thomas Ligotti taking antinatalism and making it into horror fiction is basically all you can really do with the concept, because it provides nothing aside from mental anguish.

>>20398702
>Thomas Ligotti taking antinatalism and making it into horror fiction
That's called sublimation. Seems to be the only option for some of us. Me talking about it on the internet with you assholes is sort of my sublimation.

>>20398722
Is masturbation a form of sublimation?

>>20398732
Distraction, but ultimately beneficial to the cause.

>>20398785
What's the cause?

>>20398792
Not reproducing. Every load fired off target is a pregnancy averted.

>>20398795
Even if I stopped masturbating I still wouldn't be having sex. Another problem I have with anti-natalism is that I'll never even have the opportunity to prove that I believe in it, as I have no choice in the matter.

>>20398806
Don't give up. Only advice I have. Even if blackpilled to death, live like it ain't so. And of course, you'll never have sex talking ethics on the internet, surely.

>>20398702
>The problem with antinatalism is that it's correct in it's assessment that life is bad
Here's the greatest and most irrefutable argument against natalism, makes their entire shtick a non-starter: I love my life.
>n-n-n-no you don't
Uuuhm, yeah, I do, I love my life
>y-y-y-y-you are coping!
Nope, I just love it, simple as.
>h-h-h-hehe is that why you have to say it to yourself all the time
I generally only say it to refute the anti-natalist position, apart from that, it's mostly constant feeling that remains unthematized phenomenologically.
>b-b-but my depression must apply to everyone
Look, I'm real sorry that you feel that way, but it doesn't,
Simple as.

>>20398866
You're arguing with the idea that life is bad instead of laughing at it. You don't enjoy your life, if you did you wouldn't need to articulate that you do. You are coping. We all are coping. Antinatalists at the very least aren't as vulgar and dishonest in their method of coping as you are, and people like you are the reason optimists are so despised. It's not enough for you to be happy as you say you are, you need other people to think that you're happy, your "happiness" and satisfaction with life relies upon the opinions of others. You need people to think that you're doing better than they are, because without their misery being slightly greater than yours due to jealousy, there would be no distinction, no difference.

>>20398866
Yeah honestly this is how I'm feeling too. Anti-natalism was real appealing when I was depressed, but now that I'm happier, I just can't make myself believe in it again. Degrowth is really much more sensible, and if that degrowth leads to a lot less people, then fine! But the nuclear "waah life is miserable so nobody should live to experience it!" position is just lame and whiny and pointless.

>>20398882
kek
wallow in misery, faggot
t. wife pregnant

>>20398866
Unfathomably based.
Life is short, brutish, terrible, disappointing.
And I wouldn't have it any other way.

>>20398882
I literally pre-empted your entire post and retroactively refuted it, God fucking damn I'm good. Unironically, every single line of argument you take, I pre-empted it. Damn.

>>20398901
It's obvious that your happiness is reliant upon a sense of winning. And you feel that you are only winning when other people have it worse than you. And since your target is antinatalists, pessimists, and depressed individuals, you obviously aren't doing very well. This is low hanging fruit you're going after, and that proves how far down in the pecking order you are. In your first post you say:

>I'm real sorry that you feel that way

But now you say,

>wallow in misery, faggot

You can't even hide your real motivation here for two posts on an anonymous imageboard. You're losing so hard at life that your only way to feel like you're winning is to go into competition with people who have already said they aren't playing. Why aren't you playing against actual players? Is it because you know that in an actual competition you would always lose?

>>20398882
The sole function of anti-natalism is to bitterly seethe at "breeders" and their "crotchspawn" on reddit dot net for updoots.

>>20398925
You're the first person in this thread to bring up any of those things, and we aren't on reddit. Stop arguing with your imagination.

>>20398917
Not the same anon bro, I'm >>20398910 and >>20398866

But k, let's tango.

>It's obvious that your happiness is reliant upon a sense of winning.
Not exclusively, I also get a sense of happiness from, for instance, listening to birds singing.
>And you feel that you are only winning when other people have it worse than you.
Nah.
>And since your target is antinatalists, pessimists, and depressed individuals, you obviously aren't doing very well.
Not really, my targets are antinatalisM and pessimisM, not depressed people. This is /lit/, for discussion of literature, philosophy, and associated ideas. If you just want a club for depressed people, /r9k/ is right there.
>This is low hanging fruit you're going after, and that proves how far down in the pecking order you are.
It is low hanging-fruit, for sure, antinatalism and pessimism are very bad and easily refutable ideas.

>>20398929
>I'm not this other guy who has the exact same opinions as me and posts in the exact same fashion
Doubtful, and it makes no difference. Your first post demonstrated everything about your point of view. You started off by listing all the possible arguments against what you were saying, and then acting like because you listed them they were no longer valid. No matter how many times you preempt the points that I'm making, it will not make them any less accurate.

>I get a sense of happiness from listening to birds singing

I also enjoy the sounds of birds. That doesn't make me happy and that doesn't make you happy. It's a temporary enjoyment that interrupts a constant unenjoyment. Things that break the pace of life can only be pleasant because the baseline of being is unpleasant. Saying that you like listening to birds is completely irrelevant to everything we're talking about, and shows how stupid you are.

>>20398866
>>20398929

Loving is not a category of knowledge.

>>20398953
>all these harsh words
>still loving my life simple as
It's like you're trying to convince me I don't actually have hands as I type out a response to you.

>>20398979
>I love my life, I love my life!
There are people who love heroin. There are people who love childrape. It doesn't convince me that those things are good. Your personal preferences are not important to me, I'm talking about things that are bigger than you.

>>20398494
>>20398621
>>20398702
>>20398866

Antinatalism is talking about how things that do not exist benefit from not existing. It's textbook pseudointellectual sophistry at it's very premise.

>>20398494
Don't read it. Don't read any other books on the topic either.
Do you want kids? Then have them.
Do you not want kids? Then don't.
/lit/ and everyone else in the circle of philosophy take books far too seriously, instead of recognizing that their endless debates are a hobby just like any other.
The world goes on either way.

>>20398882
>>20398917
>>20398953
>>20398985
Is antinatalism entirely rooted in projection?

>>20399001
>Don't read it, don't read it, Anon! It's a bad book! Just go have kids and don't ever read it!
Yeah, books are le bad. Just go do things without thinking about them beforehand, that's the kind of great advice you can find on /lit/

>>20399006
>le projection
Everyone experiences life. When anti-natalists talk about how life is bad, they do so by examining their own life. That's the opposite of projection.

>>20399008
Yawn I come back to /lit/ after 3 months I get the same canned responses.
Nothing changed.
Same old deflections. Same old misconstrued repetition.

>>20399018
You get the same responses because you make the same low quality posts. You want different responses? Make different posts.

>>20399009
>That's the opposite of projection.
No it isn't??

People just don't understand anti-natalism. it is not about you(existence) but about the future(bringing into existence). I was depressed, I was happy, I'm happy right now, these are determined by my circumstances. I was abused as a child, it doesn't mean my child will be. But they will definitely have to face certain circumstances, death and suffering of their loved ones, as well as his/her own death. Their quality of life will be determined by my genes, my income, etc which have already been decided. Add stuff like pollution, microplastics in babies, quality of baby food, most of their life will be derermined before they are even capable of making the choice. They will suffer. Whether they can overcome it, I don't know. But I as a father wouldn't want my child to suffer at all. I will not bring my child into existence. I do not want to die, but that is because I exist. Mind you, death is not the same as non-existence. My children don't exist yet, it same as someone having just two kids, do they then question their non-existent third, fourth, and so on children? Not having a single kid is the same.

>>20399023
Projection is saying that because I don't love my life, no one loves their life. That's not basis of antinatalism. The basis of antinatalism is that life is bad, that point can be reached without ever concerning oneself with other people's mindsets. Antinatalists are not unaware of those who worship and perpetuate life, anymore than we are unaware of rapists or child molesters, your worship of things that are bad do not make them any less bad.

>>20399022
Prove to me how compulsively arguing about some entirely irrelevant thing on a mongolian carpet weaving forum will change anything.
Then prove to me how your tirade isn't just personal therapy, one in which you get to feel righteous indignation against some evil and treat your rank depression.
And finally, tell me why you aren't actively trying to change things around you if you feel so strongly about it. For example by becoming famous or powerful and influencing or imposing your beliefs onto others, since you are convinced that you are in the right and will be doing good.
>>20399032
>But I as a father wouldn't want my child to suffer at all.
>I will not bring my child into existence.
Good. Then don't have kids. It ends there. Elaborate philosophical justifications (rationalizations) aren't necessary. You've made a good assessment. You've made a decision. That's it. Don't sink into the braindead circle of philosophy, in which you must philosophically justify you taking a piss too.

>>20399046
>will change anything
In my very first post in this thread I said the main problem with antinatalism is that even though it is correct, it has no ability to alter the actions of human beings, as reproduction is as much in our control as eating, drinking, and pooping is. People have sex and have children because they are compelled to, not because they are making active moral choices. So no, I wont explain how it will change anything, because I don't believe it will.
>personal therapy!
Yes, I post because I get personal enjoyment out of it and it passes the time. What's your point?
>why aren't you trying to become antinatalist Hitler so you can change the course of history
Because I don't believe that human beings can be convinced to not behave like human beings. Hitler for example, one of the most recent examples of a man who tried to change humanity, failed spectacularly. He failed because when you try to change humans, they get angry and attack you. Politicians gain power not by changing the world, by becoming the conduits through which the tides of the world pass. You will never have a President of the United States who does anything interesting, because to get into that position is to become an avatar of the will of the American people, and what the American people want are more burgers.

>>20398494
If antinatalism is true why not just kill yourself?

>>20399068
So you agree this whole thing is about treating a general sadness and passing the time by raging against evil-of-the-month, which happens to be reproduction. Wait till you read Marx.
You've made it clear you don't want to actualize your beliefs. This makes all further argument useless.
Carry on.

>>20399091
>actualize your beliefs
You couldn't miss the point harder if you tried. Philosophy is not politics. It's not about changing the world, it's about figuring out what the world is. You're an idiot who belongs on /pol/

>>20399084
>hurrr, kill yourself!
Killing oneself increases the suffering in the world, while it will prevent future suffering for oneself, it burdens others. Antinatalists aren't selfish shitheads like those who hate them, so antinatalists don't kill themselves, no matter how much the selfish shitheads who despise them would like them to. Most antinatalists will outlive the natalists, just look at Cioran.

>>20399097
>Philosophy is not politics. It's not about changing the world, it's about figuring out what the world is.
In other words, intellectual masturbation. It is very common in cloistered intellectual types. It is also common for such types to feel themselves a cut above the rest because they made facile arguments against evil-of-the-month in a concerned, aloof tone.

>>20399084

Whose idea is it that performing the deed will yield the intended result?

>>20399033
Prove that no one has a good life, especially the people that claim they do, like the anons ITT.

Until then, your just projecting your depression. It is as nasty and lame as if some normie said that YOUR life was actually good, that YOU were actually happy, and that YOU had merely misunderstood your own condition.

>>20399110

Antinatalism is the only perennial idea.

>>20398494
here's a short synopsis
>BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
you're welcome

>>20399110
Why are you even here? Yes, people who read books, and philosophy books, are more interested in ideas than action. If it is action that you seek there is plenty of it to be had in the world. Yet you are not pursuing action anymore than anyone else here. You say such types that you clearly despise feel themselves to be a cut above the rest because of their own particular opinions and arguments, and it is clear that you are one of those types. You criticize yourself without realizing it is you who you have set your sights on.

>>20399109
But not having kids (e.g. when the women has fertility problems) also creates suffering, and apparently being born makes it so it's better to keep living, therefore there's no logic in saying it's immoral to have kids, since having kids negates that supposed immorality. Maybe if antinatalists thought about this for more than 2 seconds they'd be happier.

>>20399113
>Prove that no one has a good life
I don't believe that. I don't believe that no one has a good life. There's a lot of chance involved in whether or not one will have terrible things happen to them, and there are people on this planet who manage to go through life relatively unscathed and for the most part are quite lucky, lucky enough to truly have led good lives.
>prove that the anons ITT aren't those people
I can't prove it because I can't fly through the sky and see who these people really are, I can't take the God's eye perspective, but their having ended up on a website, and in a thread full of depressives and antinatalists does not suggest that they are doing very well. Most happy people living good lives have never once posted on 4chan. Is it possible that there are people with good lives who have posted on 4chan? Yes. Is it likely? No. And the need to argue against antinatalism suggests that one feels they need to prove antinatalism is wrong, and that suggests that they are uncertain about their own beliefs, because no one ever argues with something they couldn't even consider.

>>20399132
>I don't believe that.
Then how do you support the claim that antinatalism is correct about life being bad? Is that your claim? I assume your this guy btw if not ignore >>20398702

>>20399126
What are you even talking about? No, having kids does not automatically reduce suffering because every kid is different, it's a complete gamble, you never know whether having the kid will be good or not good, you can make a guess, but it's still just a guess. This is getting more into the concept of being, "childfree", which is not actually antinatalism, but something different entirelly, but anyways, the point is that it's a gamble, and those people who choose not to have kids don't want to gamble. This has little to do with antinatalism.

>>20399115
God is the only perennial idea. How did you get this wrong?
>>20399125
"Ha its not me who is a cloistered intellectual with limited views whose only aim is to treat a personal sadness and pass the time, its YOU!"

>>20398494
Interesting how he isn't focusing on stopping black people from having children.

>>20399159
Sand niggers too. OP seems to want some races to die out.

>>20399139
I believe that antinatalism is correct about life being bad because in order for a minority of people to live good lives, a majority must live bad lives. I'm not just talking about third world slaves making T-shirts or whatever, I'm also talking about all the cows, chickens, and pigs in slaughter houses, all of the wild animals who were evolutionary dead ends and died brutally for no reason. It is clear from examining the world that this is a place with finite everything, that includes happiness. Not everyone can be a winner, not everyone can be happy, and in order for some people to be winners, a lot of people have to be the losers. I don't view that as being fair or good or noble. I view that as being bad. If you're one of the winners, it's no doubt very easy to say that yes, all of that suffering is worth it, but that's because you as the winner don't experience the suffering. My stance is that I'm not willing to suffer for some other asshole's pleasure, and I'm not interested in making other people suffer for my own pleasure. I don't want to be the winner or the loser, I don't want to play the game. That's why I'm a vegan, that's why I'm an antinatalist, is me being either of those things going to change the universe? No, but being those things is my way of rejecting the universe.

>>20399149
>I argue with cloistered intellectuals with limited views and spend time in the same places they spend time and behave in the same way they do, I am clearly very different from them!

>>20399149
>God is the only perennial idea.

The Buddhist tradition is mostly Atheist.

>>20399180
Oh I finally understand your view. All life except plants must be eliminated, because plants are autotrophs and consume non-living matter directly. But then again, if there are many plants, they will encroach upon each other for resources and space, causing suffering.
Hence, all life except a singular plant must be eliminated.
Very interesting views, I must admit.

>>20399187
>behave in the same way they do
Belch. Don't compare me with your likes. And for some reason you think what you say offends me, but I know for a fact that my statements cut a deep nerve, because my statements are true. However, everything you say is a variation the classic high-schooler's comeback "no YOU are a nerd".
>>>20399192
So you admit that God is the only perennial idea, since humans have had some version and conception of God since forever, far far back and far far before Buddhism. What a fucking moron.

>>20398494
>(((Benatar)))
Dismissed.

>>20399223

That is not what "perennial" or "perennialism" means.

>>20399280
He's not worth engaging with, desu. He's clearly an idiot.

>>20399280
What does it mean?

>>20398494
The Birth of Tragedy
This is Nietzsche quoting Herodotus quoting Aristotle, but the first part of the book is about the horror of existence and how the Greeks dealt with it through art
"According to the old story, King Midas had long hunted wise Silenus, Dionysus' companion, without catching him. When Silenus had finally fallen into his clutches, the king asked him what was the best and most desirable thing of all for mankind. The daemon stood still, stiff and motionless, until at last, forced by the king, he gave a shrill laugh and spoke these words: 'Miserable, ephemeral race, children of hazard and hardship, why do you force me to say what it would be much more fruitful for you not to hear? The best of all things is something entirely outside your grasp: not to be born, not to be, to be nothing. But the second-best thing for you — is to die soon."

>>20399390
Plutarch rather

>>20399372

Something being ever-present against, not among, the sociocultural background. God being the prominent thing embedded therein, along with rape, theft, torture, etc.

But it won't help me nor will the plan turn real, it will only reinforce fears, telling me I'm actually not equipped to face tragedy, I rather watch boxing events or skating fails

>>20399403
What's another example of something being ever-present against the sociocultural background.

>>20399403
Since you have stated that antinatalism is the only idea that is perenial by your definition, give an example for something that is present against the sociocultural background, but not ever-present.

Reposting this again.

pessimists don’t actually care. By this I mean to say, if the topic is say the phenomenology which is the basis of the Schopenhauerian view which is itself kantian, the arguments which break apart and reformulate the kantian model or alternatives to it must be ignored.

So for example you have to ignore the husserlian phenomenology and its direct interaction through Heidegger with kantianism, for example Heidegger’s interpretation at once reconciles the noumena with the phenomena with the only difference in them being the being who partakes of it, otherwise being identical. This shatters the field Schopenhauer draws from and displaces Will in favor of Care which basically destroys the viewpoint of the model.

Likewise you can just argue you agree more with Fichte or the like and just not use the kantian-Schopenhauer view.

Likewise the others who are less formal such as ligotti operate on a mixture of never tackled presuppositions with selective emotional biases, by this I mean to say, the negative and suffering they see are easily dissolved by skepticism into a neutrality/epoche, at times ligotti will even admit this but then back off because he knows he personally doesn’t have the capacity to do this, since he’s mentally ill.

As for the others who try to make a moral/ethical valuation out of destruction, based on a kind of utilitarianism, they must again have various presuppositions and hold to nonsense opinions, such as it is better (a quality of being) that something stay/return to nothing, as if their being somehow existed in stasis in nothing, when in truth the person who suffers if they did not exist prior to birth you cannot claim good or evil occurs to them; because there is no them. Good as a quality can only be applied to a being if it has being, a non-being does not exist thus categories such as better and worse are illogical to apply, and are only applied due to a woe-is-me pathos, one that is not strong enough to move most of these people to suicide.

There’s a reason the common person tells these people to kill themselves, it’s because life, living, birthing Abe so forth are ultimately one thing, the continuous of being, if you believe life bad, then the lack of birthing and annihilation of yourself ought not be seen as different, the only difference is you will experience the removal of your experience.

Not to mention that simply not having a utilitarian ethics absolutely annihilates their arguments, there are plenty of secular ethical models which aren’t utilitarian. Nietzsche for example isn’t utilitarian whatsoever, Will not pleasure/suffering is the crux. And if we count the various religions and spiritual/mystical philosophies as options? The moral sentiments and phenomenology and ontological considerations of the pessimist amount to nothing.

The superior option to pessimism is hardcore skepticism whether in the pyrrhonian or Buddhist form, those can at least wrestle with these.

>>20399492
I would advise any man to not share his words twice

>>20398953
Lol look at this guy, telling people he's never met what they do and do not find happiness in. What arrogance

>>20399201
All nervous systems must be eliminated. Plants and single-cell organisms as well as primitive animals like Sponges are fine, they can't feel shit.

>>20399696
How are you going to do this?

Also, there's a non 0 chance that intelligent life will occur again across time.

>>20399885
Life will probably never occur again, moron. As far we know we're the only life in the universe

>>20398929
>antinatalism and pessimism are very bad and easily refutable ideas

Please give me an alternative before I end it. Learning about these ideas has robbed me of happiness for years

>>20399459

Mercantilism.

>>20399008
Here's a fun fact, self-rumination is very strongly correlated with depression. The process of reflecting on your own actions even in a benign way can trigger depressive thoughts subsequently.
Your standards are impossibly high and therefore you're prone to depressive thinking. The emotional underpinnings of this rational argument - life is uncomfortable at baseline - is something entirely subjective which you are inflicting on yourself. Not necessarily true for every one of you, but this comment of yours is very revealing.

>>20399180
Literally reads like the diary of Nietzsche's last man. It blows my mind that people can think like this. Why do you give a shit whether most living things suffer?

>>20401186
Not that anon but because because compassion is the best use of our over evolved consciousness. Why should I be a violent animal because your daddy Nietzsche said so?

We have the technology to end suffering by extinguishing life. Why do we keep the pointless game going? I'm sure you'll just mock and call me weak, though

>>20399180
This is all right, existence is hell—BUT, no one is happy. It's a con: they trick you into working hard before always yanking the carrot out of your reach again. I recommend you read some histories: it's amazinng how many Kings/emperors and so on literally just abdicated because they couldn't take it, how many Tsars started following kooky Christ cults because they needed something more to keep going.

The world sucks! woe to man.

I wonder what the worlds billionaires or people like Larry Page would say to that, being hyperorganized, connected and aware people. What's their take, how do they view life. Maybe not a Bezos or Musk, but in general I think people like Benatar don't got shit on some really smart hard working people behind the scenes x)

>>20401186
>Why do you give a shit whether most living things suffer?
Because I'm conscious. You wouldn't get it.

>>20399921
The Bible

>>20401572
There isn't a single part of the bible that refutes anything related to antinatalism or pessimism. You may as well have just told him to watch Star Wars.

>>20398621
Since we can't know, it means that both positions are equally valid (or invalid).

>>20398866
Anon, you love your life NOW. That will change.

>>20400404
Aka ignorance is bliss

>>20401186
It’s a white people thing

>>20401237
>>20401472
Why not give some actual arguments? Compassion for your own family and ethnic group in certain cases is beneficial and it's obvious why we have those instincts. There is no logical reason why these would be extended to outside groups, especially non-humans like cows. Seems like a misfiring of instinct if anything.

>>20401846
The Danes genocided the English in one of the most ruthless ethnic cleansings in recorded history and supplanted their ruling class with their own. The Swedes enslaved the Slavs and created the Russian empire. The entire history of Europe is based on non-stop slaughter - Europeans weren't always the spineless dogs that they are today.

>>20401974
>the ability to empathize with others through the power of imagination + spinelessness
You're just dumb. It's that simple. You aren't intelligent enough to even comprehend thinking the thoughts we're discussing.

>>20401974
your knowledge of history is about as good as your ability to Understand the meaning of a sentence

>>20401846
Which is why they're going extinct and will be replaced by Pashtuns and Incan mountain farmers

>>20401678
A.k.a. your arbitrary standards are maladaptive and you get off on being le too smart to live, when your real problem is that you're an egotistical navel-gazer trapped in a loop of circular emotion you are mistaking for logical rigor

>>20402504
How are anti-natalist standards arbitrary if they use arguments and evidence to justify them? That seems like the exact opposite of what arbitrary means. The rest of your comment seems to be a characterization of anti-natalist you've conjured up in your own head in order to whip out easy insults.

>>20398795
Retard. Why are you so retarded?

>>20402504
> maladaptive
stopped reading there
enjoy being adapted to shit slave

Antinatalists want nothing more in the world than to see Antinatalism successfully refuted at least once.

Then we could go back to being normal.

>>20402673
Opinions can't be refuted. It's up to yourself to refute your own opinions, which applies to all opinions. All is Mind-made - Dhammapada.

>>20398866
Let me follow you with a camera crew for 3 months so we can see how "happy" you are kek

>>20402678
I think you could sway an anti-natalist's views with a good argument assuming they are basing their own anti-natalism off arguments.

>>20402678
>It's up to yourself to refute your own opinions
Okay, my own opinion is that life is way too gnarly to force someone else to do it. If someone presents compelling evidence to the contrary, that may no longer be my opinion.

There's an extremely important decision at play here. Its not as simple as "whatever suits me."

https://youtu.be/4OWl5nTctYI

>>20399084
Isn't this an argument for antinatalism?
If its so bad you have to kill yourself by some force of honesty or something stupid, then why would I make more people to face that situation?

>>20402598
Attaching arguments and evidence to a sentiment post-facto is a rationalization, and nothing more than a facade of logic.
The same is true for the other position, of course, but optimism is only situationally maladaptive.

>>20402664
It's self-evidently not shit.
Meanwhile, you are self-evidently shit.
Your opinions to the contrary are not my problem, at least they wouldn't be if you knew how to shut up or actually off yourself

>>20402829
If a sentiment leads you to a view that can be justified with a sound argument, that is wrong to you?

>>20402832
you are the equivalent of a debeaked battery hen thinking it’s doing well

>>20398882
you are self-refuting, the pleasure of shitting on pathetic faggots like you alone makes life worth living

>>20402868
But anon you aren’t shitting on anyone, you are making yourself look retarded

>>20399033
>life is bad
you are literally projecting yourself on other people. life isnt bad for other people, therefore antinatalism is null and void

>>20402847
The chain of argumentation returns to the base value judgement you began from, so the argument is essentially unsound.

>>20402872
ahahaha sure thing little buddy, whatever you have to tell yourself to feel better

>>20402867
I, personally, am an academic, which means in this analogy I'm the equivalent of the Nicaraguan alien laborer debeaking the hens with rusty implements
Even if this was not the case your "le sheeple" schtick is the most tired tiresome meme on this planet. Sour grapes lmao

>>20402882
Are you a nihilist?

>>20402895
No, what prompts you to say that?

>>20402902
I'm no expert in the topic but
>The chain of argumentation returns to the base value judgement you began from, so the argument is essentially unsound.
seems to me to indicate you do not have specific morals since they seem to often be based on sentiments at their base that then have an argument built around them to support it.

>>20402894
Holy cringe

>>20402913
>you are the equivalent of a debeaked battery hen thinking it’s doing well

>>20402919
IM a AcADemiC

>>20402911
No, the point is that this is not a matter of reason on any level, it's a conflict of aesthetic. The disagreement is on the base emotional level, and the higher representations of the disagreement are impotent seething because of that root contradiction. The rational arguments presented will only end up being convincing if they manage to shame someone into being insecure about their core beliefs; the argument is not functioning on a rational level, and is not in application a sound argument.
This is broadly true for most human conflicts but with this existential shit it's very obvious, because you immediately hit the sentimental motivations one layer deep.

>>20402924
>Now the dumb faggot falls back to "CRINGE CRINGE CRINGE" thinking this will save face because he's a failure to launch retard and probably a zoomer too

>>20402938
I should add that whatever I am, I'm not a rationalist. That ideology had always represented naive idealism at best and ruthless politics at worst

>>20402954
You’re not good at this

>>20402868
>You are self-refuting
I refute you, and after I pass peacefully having left behind no biological children, your children will be reading my books and arguing my positions. Antinatalism scares you, because while you lack the courage to comprehend it, you know your children will embrace it. Breed all you want, your own thoughts are infertile.

This is a nice take on the "le suffering makes us stronger" argument. I love Gary!

https://youtu.be/FKBuCgvfWMw

>>20403260
not that anon but you are just another symptom of the modern decadence and his kids will either starve to death or never know you even existed

>>20398494
kys my man

>>20403325
Cope. I will groom your children from beyond the grave and there's nothing you can do to stop me, cuck.

>>20403345
Oh yeah? well you can't groom my children if I groom them first fagboy

>>20403345
Wow you're just like a homosexual! The desire to groom children must be a feature of all non-reproductives.

>>20403373
>Non-reproductives
Yeah, we reproduce so little that we exist in every era. You'll breed us out of existence any day now.

Antinatalism is for genetic failures, just end it please instead of making us suffer with your retarded philosophy

>>20403402
>KILL YOURSELF, PLEASE, WAAAAAAAHHHHH!
Nope, we'll continue to outpace you in the spread of our ideas while you cry about how it's not fair because we have bad genes and physiognomy. Keep coping with your might makes right, survival of the fittest nonsense, all the while ignoring the fact that everything you believe is in on the decline, despite your beliefs being that the best always wins out. Nothing more cucked than the just world mindset, because you can never complain about anything, you can never feel that you've ever been mistreated, when your children leave you in a rest home to be tortured by foreign nurses, all you'll be able to say is, "I guess I do deserve this" because you're nothing more than a simp for the demiurge.

>>20403416
Thanks for confirming the picture is correct, tranny, I hope you do it fast and don't leave too much of a mess

>>20403416
Like I said earlier in the thread
You will be replaced by Talibans and Incan mountain farmers. It's gonna be kino

>>20403423
I will never kill myself, and you will never win. Unlike you I know the game is rigged, and that makes it so much easier to live with, but you, you think God is on your side, and it's going to be so funny watching you try to reconcile that belief with what your future has in store for you.

>>20403425
>You will be replaced by these other breeders
Nope, that's your battle to fight. I won't be here, but your children, the people you bring into this world, they absolutely will hate you for putting them into that position.

>>20403433
That is one advantage to all this.
You can't really disappoint a pessimist.

>>20403433
It's not about me winning, it's about seeing reality for what it is. Why are you so full of anger? You are doing this to yourself. I hope you find peace, either soon by the obvious method, or by accepting reality and living a life of happiness with many children.

>>20403435
>Your children will be like me
>Um no it's not my problem it's your problem
Pick one nigger

>>20398494
So why doesn't the guy just kill himself if it's better not to exist?

>>20403433
I believe God has a fiery apocalypse in store for this sinful world of degenerates

>>20403433
You need Dostoyevsky. Just because the game is rigged you don't have to rob yourself of enjoying your existence, however short and miserable it might be.

>>20403452
Read the title again, "Better Never to Have Been" as in it's better not to have to exist and deal with the suffering that entails. He already exists, killing himself would not change what he has already experienced, but preventing future life does save those possible lives from suffering. I know that even with it spelled out you still wont get it, because you're a complete fucking idiot, but don't ask the same dumb question a second time. We wont be killing ourselves.

>>20403435
You make the mistake of assuming your predicament is universal. It's not. You seem very egocentric, you should work on that. I had shitty parents and a shitty youth but I don't hate them for bringing me into this world. I'm thankful for them, even though they're very flawed people and should have done better. But it has given me a chance to become a better person instead of wallowing in self-pity.

>>20403445
Imagine trying to concern troll on 4chan
Go back

>>20403461
But if you die, you stop experiencing, so it doesn't matter at that point anyway. If you die you don't have to deal with all this suffering and useless mental masturbation. Your suffering can end soon.

>>20403450
>already disowning his future children
Lmao, all the worst people end up as parents.

>>20403470
I feel sorry for you anon, instead of wanting to raise yourself up, you live to drag others down.

>>20403472
So can yours

>>20403474
I don’t think about you at all

>>20403479
But I'm not the one complaining about suffering, you are. You have problems, I have a solution.

>>20403472
It's not just about our suffering. Once again, you're too stupid to be capable of using your imagination to imagine the lives of other people, other animals, you can only see yourself, you can only see what is happening right now in front of your face. We can see beyond ourselves, we can remember the past, and we can see the future, we can see inside the rooms of the children being raped, and into the slaughter houses where the pigs cry out in pain. We care about more than just ourselves, and you will never understand that, because you're barely more conscious than a worker bee. To commit suicide is to leave behind a problem for other people to deal with, antinatalists aren't the ones who do shit like that, we clean up after ourselves, we leave the world better than we found it. You, you're the type of guy who kills himself because you would never consider the person who has to find your body.

>>20403482
>I don't think about you at all
Doesn't work as a retort when you've just spent time talking to and arguing with the person you're pretending not to think about. Are you saying you haven't thought about your own arguments and how they play against the points you're arguing against? You obviously think about antinatalists, and they make you seethe.

>>20403461
Sounds like big cope for not following through on your own beliefs

>>20403488
> Once again, you're too stupid to be capable of using your imagination to imagine the lives of other people, other animals, you can only see yourself, you can only see what is happening right now in front of your face.
Oh, the irony.
>We can see beyond ourselves, we can remember the past, and we can see the future, we can see inside the rooms of the children being raped, and into the slaughter houses where the pigs cry out in pain.
No you can't. You are deluding yourself. You cannot even come to grips with your own experiences, let alone those of other beings. Just as the vegans' self-hate projects their craved love for themselves to beings they cannot empathize with (because they are broken), so do the antinatalists. You cannot bear the weight if the world if you cannot even clean your room.
>we clean up after ourselves, we leave the world better than we found it.
You don't, you destroy and claim it is love. You live in an inverted reality.
>You, you're the type of guy who kills himself because you would never consider the person who has to find your body.
Stop projecting. Normal people do not even consider killing themselves. You are deeply troubled and should seek help. This website is not good for you.

>>20403498
You can't even comprehend what our beliefs are.

>>20403504
Your beliefs are that life is cruel and therefore instead of ending it, it would have been better to not have been born at all, and that the only solution to suffering is to stop bringing new life into this world.
Which is just a giant cope for hating yourself.

>>20403504
>waaaah life sucks we should all just go extinct
>I don't wanna die though cause, like...it might cause suffering or some shit
Yeah I get it

>>20403502
>nuh-no, vegans can't really empathize with animals, they just-uh, they uh, they hate themselves, yeah!
You can't empathize with animals, and you can't imagine anything other than your own point of view, so now you delude yourself into thinking vegans are as shallow as you. Incredibly ironic when you talk about other people "projecting", talking to you is like talking to someone who has a mirror permanently attached a few inches in front of their own face.

>>20403524
My life is pretty awesome though. And really thats all that matters.

>>20403490
We are currently in an antinatalism thread
This is like making a retort against Don Draper along the lines of "um we're in the same elevator right now and you responded to me, owned :)"

>>20403531
Yes, you're selfish and incapable of considering others. We know. It's a big part of what motivates out worldview. And we don't hate ourselves, we hate you.

>>20403538
Does Don Draper spend his free time going into image board threads dedicated to the topic of this guy's life? Because if so, then yeah, he does think about him.

>>20403485
so? all your problems can go away if you want them to

>>20403512
you where doing so well until you added that last line of your own cope

>>20403524
No, I am realistic about it. I know I cannot bear the suffering of all living beings like you claim to do, and the vegans, who are indeed shallow. I wish to better living conditions for all animals and to preserve and regenerate nature for future generations. I want to restore dharma. You are once again, completely unaware of the irony of your statements. You are adharmic.

The antinatalist is mostly baiting you all btw.

He's making real points but receiving hollow platitudes, or the dreaded "why don't you kill yourself?" which is pretty much code for "I lose the argument."

Its been somewhat entertaining. 7.5/10

>>20403553
No, you just don't like the fact that I understand your philosophy and still think it's retarded because I'm not wallowing in self-pity and trying to drag others to your level like you are. It's sad, honestly. Even if you are trolling for mental masturbation and gratification (which I strongly suspect), it's still sad.

>>20403555
>the dreaded "why don't you kill yourself?" which is pretty much code for "I lose the argument."
It's really not, it's simply the one thing the antinatalist cannot answer, and has to invent mental gymnastics in order to philosophize his way out.

>>20403556
> because I'm not wallowing in self-pity and trying to drag others to your level like you are
why do you project your own feelings onto others?
no one except you is wallowing in self pity or trying to drag others down

>>20403559
>the antinatalist cannot answer
Lmao, it's been responded to dozens of times in this thread.

>>20403559
We’ll no you would need to explain why he should kill himself, simply stating that they believe not creating life doesn’t = killing yourself

>>20403559
You can't answer it because its a false equivalence.
The B does not follow from A.

Even if someone believes people shouldn't be born it simply means that they believe people should never be born. No special action required.

Besides, its hard to argue with the antinatalists that have killed themselves.

lrn2argue or keep losing, your call

>>20403561
>no u
This entire thread is an alleged antinatalist wallowing in self-pity and trying to drag others down to his level. It's been fun, tranny, but it's obvious you've run out of gas.

>>20403567
>my projection is This entire thread is an alleged antinatalist wallowing in self-pity and trying to drag others down to his level
FTFY retard

>>20403567
lol, making ad hom into an art form again

>>20403564
>>20403565
>>20403566
Lmao the amount of seethe
>We’ll no you would need to explain why he should kill himself
Look here >>20403472

>>20403575
>no argument
Sad, this didn’t go well for you huh?

>>20403567
Why do you think antinatalists are wallowing in self-pity? Are you the same one who says vegans hate themselves? These are both ideas you came up with. Believing that the suffering in life outweighs the pleasure does not make one any more miserable than anyone else, if anything, it makes it much easier to cope with life. You certainly seem to want us to be miserable, because that would make you feel better, but we aren't. We don't hate ourselves, we aren't going to kill ourselves, no matter how much you desperately want us to.

>>20403575
>Look here
Okay I looked.

I see an assumption and again pleading for a special action that is not required of antinatalism or anything else save promortalism.

Was I supposed to be wowed?

>>20403571
>no u
Bye tranny
>>20403572
Yes, antinatalists cannot be reasoned with so someone has to do it.

>>20403578
>no argument
See >>20403472, refute it then

>>20403585
Are we supposed to start refuting it in different languages or something? I'm confused.

>>20403585
See, >>20403488

You've already been dunked on, multiple times. You lost, you ignored your beatdown, and now you claim to have won. This is Jew tier conversational tactics.

99% of "arguments" against anti-natalism are just ad hominem. It's very telling that natalists do not have any way to deal with the actual propositions being disputed.
>inb4 ad hominems are actually sound in this case because cope

>>20398494
>Coming into existence is harm
The problem with this argument is that it's logically unsound. Does coming into existence harm non-existence? Or does it harm existence? If the former, and non-existence was harmed, then nothing was hurt. If the latter, and existence is harmed by coming into existence, and therefore the harm itself is existence, then we need not be interested in the harm of it, since existence is not permanent.

>>20403582
>Why do you think antinatalists are wallowing in self-pity?
It's obvious from this thread and all their philosophy. They had a shitty life, shitty parents, assume it's universal, and try to convince others life is bad. They just want attention.
>Are you the same one who says vegans hate themselves? These are both ideas you came up with.
Yes, there are obvious similarities (and overlap).
> it makes it much easier to cope with life.
Thanks for admitting it's all cope. Life should be lived, not coped with.
>You certainly seem to want us to be miserable, because that would make you feel better, but we aren't.
I don't want you miserable, but antinatalism will keep you miserable. The solution is to either end it or overcome your suffering. Wallowing in self-pity won't change anything.
>We don't hate ourselves, we aren't going to kill ourselves, no matter how much you desperately want us to.
I don't desperately want you to, I just want to help end your suffering. You do hate yourselves, otherwise you wouldn't be following this strange ideology. There exist no antinatalists who are not depressed.

>>20403583
>>20403589
>>20403591
It has not been refuted. You suffer? You either end it or overcome it. Philosophizing it and coping with it are not answers. Ending it is merely the easy way, because generally antinatalists lack the willpower to overcome their suffering.
>>20403592
Antinatalists are severely depressed, making them unable to reason like normal people.

>>20403607
>Antinatalists are severely depressed, making them unable to reason like normal people.
There you go, proving my point. I'd tell you to make an actual argument but I know that you can't.

>>20403607
You should probably consider that if your argument boils down to "you are depressed" or "kill yourself to prove it," you just have a piss-poor argument.

>>20403615
Ever heard of a Kafka trap? That's what you laid out there. Whatever I said, you would have gone for the gotcha.
I know antinatalists in real life. They all make the same arguments as the anons here, and they're all severely depressed, heavy on medication, usually mentally very unstable. I genuinely pity them.

>>20403592
I have no responsibility towards unconcieved children because they don't exist. There you go.

>>20403615
Twenty bucks says he doubles down.

>>20403598
>projection
>ad-hom
>projection
>more projection
So tedious. Me on the left, btw. You're on the right.

>>20403618
You should probably consider that if your philosophy boils down to "life sucks" or "I should not have been born" you just have a piss-poor life.

>>20403625
>no u
It's getting tiring, tranny.

>>20403621
>ad hominem
>not an argument
>>20403624
yep

>>20403629
And if my life were awesome the philosophy wouldn't apply to those having a terrible life?
Can you pull your opponent out of your model and deal with the argument itself?

I mean, people are having some terrible-ass lives out there.

>>20403623
Does not pertain to antinatalism as conception occurs prior to and does not necessarily end in birth.

>>20403635
I can reiterate what I've stated before but you'll just cope again. Antinatalism is the living embodiment of samsara, going endlessly in circles, suffering.

>>20403629
This is gonna blow you're mind here, it's possible to have a good life, the best life possible, and still recognize that life is a raw deal. You wouldn't get it, because you're incapable of seeing anything outside of your own current status, but antinatalism isn't about self-pity, it's about recognizing that the juice is not worth the squeeze.

We aren't saying the grapes are sour having never tasted them, we're saying the grapes are sour after having already eaten them. Pic related is by gf, btw. She's sucking me off rwhile I type this out.

>>20403645
All you have to do is make an argument. This one tried >>20403623. It's not that hard, you know? Just say something that actually addresses the issue. If antinatalism is wrong you should be able to do that.

>>20403640
>And if my life were awesome the philosophy wouldn't apply to those having a terrible life?
No, because you are not those people. If they brought their terrible lives onto themselves, antinatalism won't help them. If they just were dealt a shitty hand, that's life. You either end suffering or overcome it.
>Can you pull your opponent out of your model and deal with the argument itself?
I have, multiple times. You either end suffering or overcome it. Wallowing in self-pity changes nothing.
>I mean, people are having some terrible-ass lives out there.
Yes? How will you change it for them if you can't even clean your own room?

>>20403647
The best argument for antinatalism is that somebody's daughter has to grow up and fuck me. Truly it was better had she never been.

>>20403650
>How will you change it for them
By not creating a "them" to need saving. Not creating a preference to be frustrated.

>>20403650
>If they brought their terrible lives onto themselves

"JUST WORLD, IT'S A JUST WORLD GUIZE, JUST PULL YOURSELF UP BY YOUR BOOTSTRAPS! ALLS FAIR IN LOVE AND WAR!"

Lmao.

>>20403647
For someone so against adhoms, you're sure generous in dealing them out.
You know nothing of what I've experienced and been through. I've tasted the grapes and they were sour, so I grew sweet grapes instead.
>it's possible to have a good life, the best life possible, and still recognize that life is a raw deal.
So tell me, how did you come to this conclusion? What was the best life you lived that mae you see it was still a raw deal?

>>20403655
To be fair, he did say "if," leaving the door open for all of the horrible circumstances not self-inflicted, which is most all of them.

Just playing double's advocate here

>>20403656
>You know nothing of what I've experienced and been through
I don't care what you've been through, your personal experience does not refute the experience of all of existence. This is what you don't get, it's not about you, it's not about me, it's about everything and everyone. You're too self-centered to be able to have this discussion. Philosophy quite literally is not for you.

>>20403654
>By not creating a "them" to need saving. Not creating a preference to be frustrated.
So you're more concerned with helping people who don't exist than helping people that do exist? You are too egocentric to see your own predicament.
>>20403655
Some people have all the right cards and fuck it up, then complain about it. Yes, they bring their suffering onto themselves.
>>20403649
I have, multiple times. You either end suffering or overcome it. Wallowing in self-pity changes nothing.

Doesn't matter how good a life could theoretically be, because it could also filled with the most abject suffering imaginable. You don't have any control over which life your child will have. You bring them into existence knowing their entire existence could be a torturous hell.

>>20403661
You cannot experience the experience of all existence. You are not God. You are delusional.

>>20403662
>I have, multiple times. You either end suffering or overcome it. Wallowing in self-pity changes nothing.
This is still an ad-hominem as you're just addressing my personal experience of suffering. Also not all suffering can be overcome or is under the control of the one who is suffering. It's a really silly thing to say, honestly.

>>20403660
He did say if, but then he went on to his, "that's just life, either deal with it or kill yourself" schtick. So I'd rather shitpost than respond to him at this point.

>>20403663
>You don't have any control over which life your child will have. You bring them into existence knowing their entire existence could be a torturous hell.
And if you're a good person and a good parent, the chances of their existence being happiness and bliss increases manifold. If you're a good person, it's more than worth the risk. If you're not a good person, become one.

>>20403666
>You cannot experience the experience of all existence
Not with your lack of imagination and empathy you can't, that much is true.

>>20403668
>So I'd rather shitpost than respond to him at this point.
The true face of the antinatalist. Instead of refuting, he shitposts.

>>20403668
Oh I get it. There's nothing in there to debate. I'm just bored. Also I hold out hope that an actual argument against the philosophy will get raised.

It could happen.

>>20403670
>bro, just be a good person, bro, that prevents your kids from getting cancer
Lmao, just pure kek, nonstop kek.

>>20403671
No human can, because no human is omniscient. You are not God, therefore you cannot either.

>>20403670
You're incorrect, because you have no control over it ultimately. For example, you turn your back momentarily at a supermarket and your child is abducted. Your character has nothing to do with it.

>>20403676
When you're talking to natalists it feels like you're talking to sheltered children who have no conception of what the world is actually like.

>>20403676
Yes? If you're a good parent, you raise your children in an environment that is less likely to give them cancer. Cancer is not a random lightningstrike that appears out of nowhere. Now just as with everything in life, there are no guarantees. But that's part of life, if it were safe and knowable there would be no point.

>>20403676
It'd be funnier if the implications weren't so horrific.

>>20403684
>Cancer is not a random lightningstrike that appears out of nowhere.
Dude, this is more or less totally how cancer works.

>>20403679
You cannot control life 100% and trying to make it so will only make you miserable. If you are a good parent, the chances of your child being abducted at random will lower significantly.

>>20403689
>If you are a good parent, the chances of your child being abducted at random will lower significantly.
You've lost the argument.

>>20403666
Take the L kid

>>20403688
No, it's really not. The risks of cancer increases with unhealthy activities. Eating fastfood, smoking drinking. But also stressing, worrying. Cancer was not nearly as widepread as it is now throughout the entirety of human history.
>We simply didn't know how to detect it
In some cases perhaps, but in the majority we did, and can still retroactively.

>>20403686
Somehow these people will talk about how the world is full of microplastics and all kinds of toxins, yet they still think they can just will away the cancer or something. Genuine insanity.

>>20403695
This is embarrassing

>>20403695
Go sun your balls, dipshit.

>>20403692
No, if you're a good parent, you won't leave your kid unattended in unsafe neighborhoods. Abductions do not happen anywhere, anytime at the same rates.

>>20403699
>>20403700
>>20403693
>noo you can't use adhoms
The antinatalist's true face is revealed again. What a sad existance.

>>20403695
>Cancer was not nearly as widepread as it is now throughout the entirety of human history.
Cancer was undetectable for most of human history.

Carcinogens make up a smaller percentage than you would imagine. The number one cause of cancer is cell division. The more divisions you go through, the better the chances.

>>20403702
Doesn't matter. The abduction doesn't even have to happen while they're a child. It could happen as an adult as well. You don't have control over it.

>>20403705
Yes, so mostly in very old people, not in young children. And it was not undetectable, it was just that they did not name it cancer, or did not have the means to do anything about it. It would have been called demonic possession, or dying of old age, but the descriptions match.
>>20403707
You can significantly lower the chances to the point that it's no longer something to worry about. How many people do you personally know that were randomly abducted?
>You don't have control over it.
The only thing you have control over is your own life. Which refutes the entire antinatalists' point, because they attempt to control all life.

>>20403704
No, its embarrassing because you keep acting as though there is some ultimate preventability state for life's ills and its just a matter of personal fortitude.

Its a mindset that, well, I'm not sure what to call it. Let's just say naive.

>>20403713
The majority of childhood cancers are not caused by carcinogens.

>>20403714
So you're going to continue the adhoms? You are no better than what you claim I am, and a hypocrite.
>as though there is some ultimate preventability state for life's ills and its just a matter of personal fortitude.
I never claimed the first, but yes the latter. I merely said you could significantly lower the risks, but there will always be chance and unavoidable risk, and that that is part of life. It is what allows us to grow. Without adversity, no opportunity to grow. Without suffering and adversity, Ceasar, Napoleon, Jesus would not have been able to accomplish what they did.
>Its a mindset that, well, I'm not sure what to call it. Let's just say naive.
No, it's experience. You can walk through the rain sheltering, squinting your eyes as if every drop hurts, feeling the cold, or you can walk upright and enjoy the raindrops on your face. Your choice.

>>20403721
And the overwhelming majority of children do not experience cancer at all. It's not a constructive thing to worry about, unless you work in the medical field and can work on cures.

>>20403728
Please stop dude

>>20403724
You don't know what ad homs are. We attack your ideas, you make up stuff about us being depressed and hating ourselves. It's not our fault you keep on saying the stupidest stuff imaginable.

>>20403738
wtf is this real? How did he do that?

>>20403737
Please refute what I said then.
>>20403738
You've merely been coping and crying about adhoms.
>Suffering? End it or overcome it.
Please refute.

>>20398494
Antinatalism is retarded because it assumes that all humans experience life in the same way, which is obviously not true. I've struggled with debilitating mental issues for most of my adult life, and nothing has really helped. I've tried more exercise, improved my diet, seen multiple therapists and been on various prescription meds over the last 15 years, but none of these things have had any meaningful impact on what goes on in my head. I'm always depressed, lonely and anxious, and I have zero hope that anything will improve in the future. Most likely I'll end up killing myself within the next decade.

In my very specific case I agree that it would have been better if I'd never existed, and if I could push a button that would change the past and stop my parents from having me, I would do so. However, most of the people I know in real life and through the internet appear to be getting more joy than suffering out of their existences. Sure, there are some people who have a bleaker outlook on life than most, and no one is perfectly happy 100% of the time. However, if human existence truly was just endless suffering for every individual we wouldn't still be around as a species, because everyone would have killed themselves a long time ago. We're still here though, so apparently existence is in sum positive for the majority of human beings.

>>20403748
>Suffering? End it or overcome it
Suffering can not be ended without wiping out all life, which is unrealistic. It can however be prevented through the refusal to procreate and perpetuate life, this is a way of ending suffering without any side effects. Suicide is a messy way of ending one's own suffering, if one feels they must do so, I do not begrudge them, but I would not do so myself because I know it would cause immense pain to those other lifes intertwined with mine.
>overcome it
You can't overcome suffering or pain, you can deal with it, you can't cope with it, but getting shot by a bullet is always going to hurt, and being alive is always going to be a struggle. There is no magical moment in life that you can eventually reach where your problems are now overcome and it's all smooth sailing. I can't respond to anything else you've said, because you've honestly said very little.

>>20403750
>I don't know what antinatalism is, the post
Read all the other posts in the thread before voicing your useless perspective next time.

>>20402045
>>20402194
You people really are fucking retards. I try to get you to reflect a little about the reasons why you hold the view that you're trying to defend here, but it seems you are incapable of it.

>>20404870
I wish there was a way out of anti-natalism and pessimism

I'm listening

Anti-natalism is a philosophy for depressive losers. Pragmatically, if you're going to choose a world view it should be the most useful one. This is why positive, natalist philosophies embodied in religions have survived and thrived, while the apocalyptic death cults faded into irrelevance.

>>20404922
literally one of the most basic philosophical concepts is regarding the inquiry of truth and going wherever it leads you no matter how uncomfortable, uncertain, or bleak it is

Total antinatalism victory. Breeders BTFO once again.

>>20405191
Yeah, it's over

Not a single counter argument

>>20398882
>if you did you wouldn't need to articulate that you do
>just don't say anything if people tell you life is inherently not worth living, despite any objections you have. if you do, you're proving them right
This is a terrible argument, and I hope you realize that on some level. I went on a bike ride yesterday and loved every second of it, and there are many things in life I love

>>20398976
Knowing how to love is the most important knowledge there is. Love and suffering are two sides of the same coin - you can't deeply know one unless you've felt the other as well.
>If you love all things, you will also attain the divine mystery that is in all things. For then your ability to perceive the truth will grow every day, and your mind will open itself to an all-embracing love

>>20405303
I really wish I could believe this but after studying the ideas of pessimism deeply I just can't see the world in such a way. Best of luck to you, anon

I also suffer from chronic pain so it clouds the little joy I have

>>20405303
Lmao this is just embarrassing now

>>20405333
>I also suffer from chronic pain so it clouds the little joy I have
Fair enough, I think your stance is understandable with that. The most I can empathize is that terrible posture in my youth gave me a significantly fucked spine/hip - I imagine actual constant pain would turn anyone into a pessimist.
Hope things work out for you still someday and you're able to see what it takes to attain a happy life (It's not through the entire elimination of suffering)

>>20405357
It's not that suffering is so damning just that it's pointless

>>20405381
This

Bump

honestly awesome thread sans a handful of people cluelessly wrong. the one thing i find natalists never engage with is how humanity will very likely soon die out. how is that not a colossal failure to the natalist project? not only antinatalism will win, but it will transcend. it is closer to the origin of it all. antintalism is god.

Would humans occur again across time? I don't think the conditions would ever happen again but idk

>>20405651
Your sick industrial decadence will die, but there are whole societies practically disconnected from it, which you trannies never account for

>>20405381
>it's pointless
Not if you love something else that gives your life meaning.
Even if you'll be forgotten in 100 years, there's value in that.

>>20399921
Brothers Karamazov

>>20403591
Claiming you've "dunked on" your opponent makes me thing you're a 15 year old
Go back to tiktok or whatever
>>20403488
>antinatalists aren't the ones who do shit like that, we clean up after ourselves, we leave the world better than we found it
Implying that antinatalists are inherently less capable of being wasteful, hedonistic pieces of garbage than anyone else is a massive cope.

>>20404895
Dude just ride a bike

Bump

I need an argument against anti-natalism to live

>>20398494
This guy on reddit summed up my feelings about antinatalism pretty well

>>20406530
There you have it. Natalism is confirmed reddit.

Time to forget this thread and go back to daddy Nietzsche to cope

>>20406526
Dude, bicycle. Just ride one.
Gears, chains, derailers, its all there!

t. the sum total of natalist refutation

>>20406526
Read fucking literature or go kill yourself already. A /lit/ thread should not be your lifeline, and no internet discourse can convince you life is worth living in comparison to going out and actually living.
>>20406663
Compared to winging online,a bike ride in nature can do wonders.

>>20406540
Lmao, keked and rekt.

>>20406540
There's no better refutation to anti-natalism than the subreddit for it
Same for cynicism, pessimism, pro-mortalism, etc

>>20407370
That's fine if one is not literally refuting a reddit screencap. Context, man.

>>20407343
I just got back from a bike ride. I take one every evening. Still a philosophical pessimist though.

Is it my tires? I was thinking of switching to street over off-road.

>>20407517
Are you a materialist?

>>20407517
I never claimed that bike rides were a panacea to philosophical issues - merely that time spent in nature exerting yourself will do more good for your mental health than seeking philosophical debates online about whether or not existence is worthwhile
Generally, having hobbies that you can improve on and things you can love are what make for a fulfilling life. You can exercise and be in nature all day but you'll still be miserable if you don't actually allow yourself to enjoy that time.

>>20407579
I have a life. It isn't always fulfilling, but that really doesn't matter, because for others its going to be a fucking horror show. For everyone eventually, its going to be a horror show. What of them? What about my own wants and needs getting filled fills theirs? Also, I'm going to lose everything and everyone I have, and I don't pretend I'll find some zen acceptance in all that.

Dude I've played for thousands of people. I've gotten wild head to Weezer's Blue Album on a beautiful autumn afternoon. You can have it. If I can spare the suffering I've seen working at care homes or taking care of relatives or consoling people who have lost children, take it. Take it all back.

>>20407579
here, Gary says it better than I ever could

https://youtu.be/4OWl5nTctYI

>>20406540
Kekd, but I don't even care if it's reddit man. Dude has a point. a single conversation with an antinatalist honestly causes me more pain than I've experienced in my life hitherto

>>20407681
>Dude has a point.
That reading antinatalist philosophy causes more suffering than existence? That's not a point, its an attempt at a witticism.

>>20403461
>Read the title again, "Better Never to Have Been" as in it's better not to have to exist and deal with the suffering that entails. He already exists,
>The title is "Better Never to Have Been Lying Down" as in it's better not to have to lie down and deal with the bed sores that lying down entails.
>Stand up then you stupid faggot
>You don't understand, I'm already lying down, and standing up wont change what I have already experienced.
This is a cope. Unless you have loved ones or dependents (doubtful) that will mourn you there is no logical reason to not commit ethical suicide. I think antinatilism is logically sound and a legitimate response to the problem of consciousness, but like 99% of antinatalists, you're just some faggoty redditer who lacks the courage of his convictions and gets off on sucking the air out of the room with his crestfallen whimpering.

>>20407795
>there is no logical reason to not commit ethical suicide
If you can give one that isn't based on your personal feeling, just one reason for him to commit suicide that will somehow validate his antinatalism, you would win this argument forever.

How is his belief contingent upon his suicide?

>>20407624
>because for others its going to be a fucking horror show.
Suffering and a love of life are inextricably linked. Suffering comes to all eventually, but to go through that suffering can further illuminate to us what makes life worth living.
Suffering isn't an uncommon (or unreasonable) answer to the avoidance of suffering, like with a terminal illness. But there are also many who choose to fight for life through that suffering because they enjoy their lives enough to want more.
>What about my own wants and needs getting filled fills theirs?
If you act with a love of life towards those who lost theirs, it has a potential to remind them of what's beautiful and virtuous.
No amount of individual action could end all suffering for everyone, or convince every person that life is worth living, but that doesn't mean that existence itself isn't worthwhile. Living in the light is it's own reward.

>>20407627
>I would give all my good experiences and memories for a dog to not suffer before dying
Ignoring the more thought-provoking child-with-cancer comparison for a second, that's a retarded stance. A dog would die in 5-10 years anyways, and I know the value of my own experiences well enough to say it's worth a lot more than that.
Even with the child-with-cancer comparison though, I'd say there's certainly a limit to what I (likely many) would give up. A night with friends or family that I can barely remember today? Of course, even if it was a great memory.
But I'd never give up the soulful connections I've had in life with others, that have shaped me arguably more than anything else.

>>20407795
> but like 99% of antinatalists, you're just some faggoty redditer who lacks the courage of his convictions and gets off on sucking the air out of the room with his crestfallen whimpering.
That’s who you lost to?
Lmao

>>20398882
"Cope" is not a real concept as everything can be reduced to "cope" therefore "cope" is a useful fiction

>>20407795
>coping about coping
the entire idea of antinatalism is a cope you dipshit. fighting against the suffering of exiwtnece by making a better life for all humans you come across through truth and genuine love is the only answer to the inherently flawed argument of antinatalism. do the rest ofnhumanity a favour and go suck an exhaust pipe you fucking waste of life

>>20407863
People aren't choosing to fight. They're choosing not to kill themselves. Its the same crass solution as the "why not kill yourself" statement. You may as well make it to each and every pain patient. They "fight" for the same reason the pessimist does; Suicide has not yet become a necessary option for them. If it does, then they will, but even then its not like turning off a light. Its a heavily loaded decision to shut down the whole show of existence, wholly separate from the ease inherent to the decision to reproduce or not.

I'm glad your estimation of your own existence supersedes consideration of the suffering of others, or the suffering you are able to prevent. Mine does not.

>>20407921
>fighting against the suffering of existence by making a better life for all humans you come across through truth and genuine love is the only answer to the inherently flawed argument of antinatalism
If that were an "answer" to antinatalism it would surely have had a destructive influence against all of pessimistic philosophy.

The reason it has not is that it is a useless bit of sophistry, considered thousands of years ago, and easily dismissed through even cursory consideration of the argument.

>>20407921
> making a better life for all humans you come across through truth and genuine love is the only answer
Lmao imagine being this retarded
why do you retards come to anti Natalie’s threads and make them look good?

>>20407956
It's like "arguing" against one of those t-shirts with the "life is good" guy on it.

>>20408075
>downloads nihilist meme from reddit
>posts it in a pessimism thread

>>20403559

See: >>20399112

based, malignantly based.

>>20407977
This shirt makes a perfect argument, I fail to see the issue.

>>20400136
Bullshit. Its labelled "mercantilism" recently, but it has been happening over and over again, even before anti-natalism.
This is what cloistered intellectuals do.
Redefine common words with unnecessary pickiness only to place themselves in the right.

>>20398494
Strife and hard work is what makes a good life, these books only appeal to weak individuals.

>>20407931
>I'm glad your estimation of your own existence supersedes consideration of the suffering of others, or the suffering you are able to prevent
You can find your existence valuable while being aware of the suffering in the world. One doesn't need to overtake the other