/lit/ - Literature

>>19941056
Delete it and add an editor's note saying the information is missing from the Japanese page, so it's irrelevant.

What the fuck. I’ve read about Basho and never came across him being gay. Or of any affairs. Sounds baseless.

Isn’t that “fascination with homosexuality” a common romantic notion in old Japan? It sounds like he thought homoeroticism was cool.

>>19941755
Why the fuck do they do this. I just read that there is no basis for Alexander being gay but if you ask some guy on the street if they know anything about Alexander there's a good chance they'll say he's gay.

And I read Basho's journals and never found any example of him being gay. Maybe I missed something.

>>19941782
Alexander was definitely bisexual. Tons of sources verify it.
Also, I don't understand the fascination with Alexander when he didn't have much of a cultural impact on the modern conception of Europe. Heraclius was more important.

>>19941056
Leftists secretly see the gays (tm) as lower than them(perverts, sodomites, etc...) and like to label them as gay to make them feel better about themselves. They admit this by pointing out that they aren't "normal" or stand out as some minority group different than the majority of people. Its why you will immediately see "he gay!!!" on Wikipedia bios as soon as they open it. It's a sort of "gotcha" for them. Well he writes well but he's gay so let's make it all about that and drown all of his other achievements with "he gay". Same thing happened to Alan Turing. He made so many contributions to society but all you hear about him is "omg he gay!"

>>19941782
>I just read that there is no basis for Alexander being gay but if you ask some guy on the street if they know anything about Alexander there's a good chance they'll say he's gay
but there are sources, retard

>>19941056
yeah no shit Wikipedia is trash. Especially on authors/philosophy/history.

>>19941820
There are many stories of Alexander with women but the stories of him with men consist of only when he kissed a eunuch who won a dance competition. Otherwise it’s just conjecture about Hephaestion.

>>19942603
>but the stories of him with men consist of only when he kissed a eunuch who won a dance competition. Otherwise it’s just conjecture about Hephaestion
LMAO, you're such a coping chud. Cry more.

>>19942642
what?

>>19942642
Lol nice counter-evidence.

>>19941935
I don't think they see them as lower, but they do romanticize them in a demeaning/condescending way.
Turing is a good example, his chemical castration for being gay is significant but there's certainly much more to him than being gay.

Just double-checked and the Japanese and Chinese wikipedias say nothing about Basho being gay. They do both say he might have been a ninja lol

BOY IM GONNA BASHO BUTTHOLE INTO BLUE CRYSTAL FIRE

>>19941056
>>19943493
The people that edit English wikipedia are mainly autistic people with liberal tendencies. I don't know who does it for other languages but it's very apparent if you know anything about a subject.

>>19941820
Had it not been for Alexander's conquests, the New Testament would have most likely been written in Persian instead of in Greek, and early Christianity would have not faced as much opposition from Zoroastrians as it did from the Roman polytheists.
Also, there would have never been a library of Alexandria or a neo-Platonist school based in Alexandria either.
Alexander's legacy was not so much what he did, but rather how far and wide he allowed Greek culture to spread.

>>19943548
In Spanish, it's mostly ultra-nationalist Latinos who think they are the heirs of Rome.

>>19943612
Why do you think Christianity would still happen without Alexander?

I don't see the problem anon, I don't care enough enough to check the references but I really doubt they're just making this up.
>>19943493
There seems to be an argument about whether they should include him being a ninja in the English talk page.

>>19943493
>They do both say he might have been a ninja lol
Yeah that was funny

>>19941056
>"I, Basho, love slobbing on some cock. As in penis, attached to human males whom I am having homosexual sex with."
>Bro, that could mean ANYTHING.
Dude seems like a faggot.

>>19941782
>I just read that there is no basis for Alexander being gay

>King Alexander, too, was quite excessively keen on boys: according to Dicaearchus in On the Sacrifice at Troy, he was so taken with the eunuch Bagoas that under the eyes of the whole theater he bent over to give him a kiss, and when the audience shouted and applauded, he very willingly bent over and kissed him again. Charon of Chalcis--so says Carystius in Historical Notes--had a beautiful boy who was devoted to him. Alexander remarked on his beauty during a drinking bout hosted by Craterus. Charon told his boy to give Alexander a kiss. "No!" said the king. "That would pain you more than it would please me."
Athenaeus, Deipnosophistae 13.602

>When Alexander arrived at the palace of Gedrosia, he restored the army with a festival. It is said that he got drunk and watched choral competitions. His eromenos Bagoas won in the dancing and he traversed the theater in his costume and sat down beside him. Seeing this, the Macedonians applauded and shouted out, bidding Alexander kiss him, until he embraced him and kissed him deeply
Plutarch, Alexander 67.8

>Alexander laid a wreath on Achilles' tomb and Hephaestion on Patroclus', hinting that he was Alexander's eromenos, as Patroclus was of Achilles.
Aelian, Varia Historia 12.7

>Euxenippus was still very young and a favourite of Alexander's because he was in the prime of his youth, but though he rivaled Hephaestion in good looks he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate.
Curtius, The History of Alexander 7.9.19

>Alexander ordered the temples of Asclepius to be burned, when his eromenos died.
Epictetus, Discourses 2.22.17

>If you wish to become beautiful and good, throw the rags on your head and come to us. However you will not be able to do it, because you are held by Hephaestion's thighs.
Diogenes, Letter to Alexander

>>19941782
>Why the fuck do they do this.
Because they are hostile agents set on destroying everything.
Lately I pipe the URL in another language into Google Translate.

>>19945478
Now THOSE are some friendships!

>>19945635
Homosexuality was traditional in feudal Japan though. Pic related, Japanese book from 1687. Mishima references it a lot. Also samurai and Buddhist texts describe a long culture of pederastic relationships

>>19945478
>he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate
see they were gay but not XX century gay, they probably moaned in a manly baritone voice when they took it up the ass

>>19945643
That's just a translation error.
>>19945648
They did NOT take it up the ass. They just joked around, as boys tend to do.

>>19945478
So we have the Bagaos story a couple times and conjecture. No events of him having sex with men. This stands in contrast to the many stories of him having sex with women, and the time(s) he declined boys offered to him.

>>19943961
Because the Messiah was going to fulfill the OT prophesies regardless lol. What, God was going to decide not to become flesh just because some different empire was in control of the Israelites?

>>19945474
>>19945636
Does anyone laugh with this kind of thing? It's like youtuber comment tier humor.

>>19945643
>greeks were into pedarasty
>so were samurais
Maybe it's why this generation is so fucked, it's the lack of pederasty

>>19945856
I’m not arguing he was gay, just bisexual or behaviourally bisexual, which would not be out of the ordinary for a Greek of his time. Multiple accounts of him having erotic attractions to males and having eromenoi (pederastic beloveds) are not 100% certain evidence that about Alexander the Great as he actually existed, but proof that he was considered a pederast in antiquity, that it is at least not a modern notion.

>>19941056
>Why are Anglos like this?
Christianity

>>19941782
>I just read that there is no basis for Alexander being gay
yeah, that's wrong. man was intensely homosexual.

>>19946040
>behaviourally bisexual
Fuck off, if you don't have sex with dudes then you're not bisexual. Quit pathologizing flamboyance. You should be able to act how you want without people assuming you're a faggot.

>>19945643
It's a purity thing in Japan, basically the equivalent of
>I love my pure 2d waifu
Buddhism introduced the idea that women were impure because they bleed, so putting your dick in one was worse than putting your dick in an asshole. Plebs could fuck women because their purity was already corrupted, but monks tried to minimise their karmic debt by only fucking tea house boys on the way back from pilgrimage (double pure because you didn't have sex before temple, and when you had sex after temple, it didn't involve a bleeding woman).
Japan has a particularly weird relationship of the sexes because they managed to keep their upper class women indoors more than the Attic Greeks. Upper class whores in Greece had to be highly educated, but in Japan they had an entire idol system. In Greece, male prostituting was always going to make you too gay to be a citizen, while in Japan it would probably make you a famous actor if you were good at it. Likewise, the lowest category of rough hookers with no skills and awful diseases also have opposing sexes in the two cultures, with women more likely to be the least pure.
>tl;dr- Japan: preferring women behind screens since before electricity

>>19946097
I think anon means "having gay sex" not "flamboyance". For a later example, Julius Caesar admitted being a "cup bearer", which we would now recognise as a child sex slave for rich people but which back then was seen as a viable networking method for future rulers. He's aware it makes him have a slightly feminised past, because of the submissive role, and jokes about it. But it's not a role which would be considered pathologically flamboyant; to do that, he would have to be taking the submissive role as an adult, willingly, and just for kicks. That would be seen as pathological to Romans, but getting kids to touch your weiner wasn't.

Flamboyance in Greek and Roman society was seen as a vice, but it wasn't necessarily anything to do with being gay. Wearing too much perfume, being too good at drinking games, or decorating your house instead of donating to the theatre were all suspicious flamboyance in Attica: only the drinking one involved anything about having sex with men too much, and the problem was you were a slut not that you fucked one guy once. The other two meant you were probably a foreign Persian traitor, and gayness was assumed of everyone foreign but the treachery was the worst part. However, Attica also considered not bathing enough to be gay, and not taking enough concern with fashion was very gay, because Sparta was also foreign and an enemy and they did those things, and were gay, so if you walked around like a commie Spartan slub, you were a gay traitor.
It's notable that Macedon was also seen as probably flamboyantly gay, but not as gay as being a dirty Spartan was. Aristotle is the only philosopher in Attica who takes the position that when an adult fucks a young boy, the adult might be partially gay and pathological. For everyone else, the kid is too gay to be an Attic citizen, and the adult is just an alpha eliminating competition in future juries. Aristotle being Macedonian probably impacted his views on how gay the adult was.

>>19946097
What are you talking about? By behaviourally bisexual I mean he had sex with men (or boys) and women, without necessarily saying he had a “bisexual orientation” in the modern sense of the word.

>>19946166
>For everyone else, the kid is too gay to be an Attic citizen, and the adult is just an alpha eliminating competition in future juries.
You might be confusing the penalties for prostitution described in ‘Against Timarchos’ with pederasty. The whole reason Ancient Greece had so many taboos and rituals surrounding pederasty was because they wanted to maintain the younger boy’s dignity because he was going to be a future citizen, hence why they never depicted anal sex between pederastic couples in their cases, only thigh sex

Bamp

>>19946040
>not 100% certain evidence that about Alexander the Great as he actually existed, but proof that he was considered a pederast in antiquity
People still consider Napoleon short even though he wasn’t and that idea was propagated by people after his time. This is very similar, since there is no documented proof of Alexander doing anything with men/boys besides the Bagaos story, which itself is not substantial.

>>19946099
But was Basho gay?

>>19948249
The man's pen name means "banana" what do you think?

>>19946223
>You must be confusing Aeschines and Aristotle
No. Aeschines was pro Timarchos being hubristic because it would get Aeschines off a bribery charge temporarily, but you seem to think that case is the only time anyone in Attica wrote on hubris, which is hilariously wrong.

I did some more reading on the subject and there’s absolutely no evidence that Basho had male lovers. The people who assert he did, and even go so far as to call him a homosexual (ignoring all the evidence of him being a womanizer by doing so) mostly say his disciple Tokoku and him were gay because Basho was sad that Tokoku died young and that the two, during their travels, needed to sleep on a single bed. Otherwise people just interpret some of his haikus as metaphors for homosexual love, which is pretty funny.

As other people have pointed out, homosexuality wasn’t a big deal in Japan during this time, so why wouldn’t Basho write about it openly? He did say he was “fascinated by male love”, but that’s that.

This thread is cracking me up.

>>19948509
>male comaraderie being twisted into homosexuality based on the most universal expression of care; sadness over death
I truly wonder if these people pay attention in their daily lives to the relationships and interactions around them.

>>19948509
Have you checked what the article's sources say? I'm too lazy to read them

>>19948902
I just did, here’s what I found:

Pflugfelder cites “biographers” but only refers to one book by Iwata Junichi called The Homosexuality of Poet Basho. The only evidence cited is the “fascinated by the ways of homosexual love” quote.

The Ueda book on Basho (cited in Wikipedia) also only mentions that quote and states it alongside Basho’s youthful whims, alongside his far-fetched ambition to become a state official and landowner. I browsed the Ueda book for any sexual themes and there are plenty of poems by Basho on male-female sexuality, none about male-male.

Leupp says that Basho “wrote several haikus on the subject” of homosexual love, but doesn’t cite any examples and his only evidence otherwise is the same exact “fascinated” quote. His other evidence that makes him so convinced that Basho was having sex with his disciples is the quote from Basho where he mentions how he was sad that Tokoku died.

So it’s as baseless as initially thought.

>>19948842
The same is very true for Alexander and Hephaestion. If one of my friends died I would be overwrought, and if my lifelong best friend died it would be even more devastating.

>>19949575
The relationship is more complex than that. Much like fagging in British boys schools actually. In Macedonian courts up until Alexander, young noble boys served the upper nobility at symposia and other court events. They were still royals, but they're also beaten like slaves for fucking up, and, while homosexuality isn't required, it often was imposed on the situation because they could be treated as slaves. But it's seen as youthful experimentation which happens peripheral to the main purpose of becoming an upper class adult. This isn't present in Attica because they don't have a king, they have the demos. Attica still fosters adult child mentorships, which have strict sexual limits barring all penetration, and preclude a lot of punishments or tasks which were "slave" duties in a way that Macedonian society didn't. The levels to which you can demean your younger partner are different in a democracy and in a monarchy, and most of the calls of homosexuality from Attica against Macedon revolve around the decadence of their royal parties turning people gay.

To put it in a modern context, their relationship was probably bros who had touched penises and watched porn together, but they wouldn't probably have ever thought to touch each other's assholes for non medical reasons, or ask for a blowjob because they don't consider themselves gay so much as red blooded. They wouldn't consider themselves gay, because they're doing what is generally considered normal noble teenaged behaviour together. It's the ancient No Balls Touching. We might see it as gay, but we also might see beating the shit out of your best friend as not a good thing.

Athens points to Macedon as more gay because of royal practices which in Attica wouldn't be straight. But Attica is doing a lot of semi gay shit too, perhaps more from modern perspectives (is kissing more gay than thigh sex?)

I think most people would consider Waugh to be straight despite doing similar things in a later culture. There's a very big difference in a lot of societies between doing gay stuff because you were a bored horny teenager and being gay as a person. Straight people in Athens could put their dicks in multiple assholes and be straight, but the second they took anything up the ass, or ate a woman out, they were as gay as your common street hustler. Even into the 20th century, there's fairies and faggots, who are that way as a lifestyle and reputation which cannot be revoked or treated like a whole male worthy of citizenship, and then there are normal people who occasionally do or did gay things which have not defined their entire life as gay. Situational homosexuality is given a very broad pass among most societies in history because so much of citizenship in societies is related to how long you spent in the army or navy away from women. Friends who see each others dicks a lot now are not as common as it was back then, so we find a lot of shit weird, like naked wrestling not being gay at all.

>>19949763
That is the most reasonable take I've seen on the whole issue in a coon's age.

>>19949763
This... makes a lot of sense

>>19941056
>Why are Anglos like this?
>Why are Anglos
>Anglos
>Anglos
>Anglos
Anon.... I......... I don't know how to tell you this, but...................

>>19950971
What

>>19950971
>da joos
Anglos are by far the most cucked tho

The English are a facts > feelings race. They want to get to the bottom (like Basho) of the matter no matter what. The Japanese are a feelings > facts people. The Japanese wiki must self-censor because tens of millions of Japanese will lose face and immediately commit seppuku if they were told that the famous haiku man was a boy hungry bum bandit.

>>19952407
kek

>>19952407
>The English are a facts > feelings race
Ah yes, the race that gave us John Money

>>19953457
John Money strikes me as a very 'facts >feelings' person, to the point that it lead him to cause immense suffering.

>>19945478
>dude there's evidence
>he...KISSED A BOY
lol ok

>>19953517
A eunuch too. There are also a couple instances of him refusing to kiss boys/men.

>>19949566
There are also plenty of poems about hetero love written by Basho. He was fine with writing about love and sex, but didn't do so for homosexual love, and not for social reasons, since homosexual love was not taboo at the time.

>>19945943
>thinks that early Christians quoting passages from the OT were real prophecies destined to happen
Maybe someday you'll realize how conned you are.

*why are jews like this

>>19941755
>It sounds like he thought homoeroticism was cool
He actually writes really cute as fuck gay poems. The fascination with homosexuality wasn't just homosexuality; it was twinks. One of his last poems is like
>Calm moon
>walking a twink home
>because the twink is scared of kitsune
It's so fucking cute it works in greentext

>>19955522
That's hecking wholesome, sister. Feeling so hecking valid rn

>>19949763
That ties in neatly with the degree of homosociality found in more traditional societies. The more nohomo things are as a rule, the gayer absolutely hetero relationships can get.

>>19955536
It feels like the transcendental seventh layer of niceposting [s4s] were nice enough to share with us <3
>>19955522
Trips between dubdubs, nice numbers, nice greentext

>>19955522
Rape by foxes was a real danger in Edo Japan

>>19949763
>I think most people would consider Waugh to be straight despite doing similar things in a later culture.
Lol what. Waugh had multiple adult homosexual relationships and is one of the most stereotypical bitchy queen aesthetes of 20th century British literature.

Pic related: ‘Come and drink with me somewhere’: photograph sent by Graham to Evelyn Waugh

>>19948842
>>19949575
Yeah of course but remember some of the ancient sources describing this grief describe Hephaestion as Alexander’s eromenos
>>19953517
>>19954397
Ignoring the fact that when he refused to kiss the other boy it was out of consideration for that boy’s lover. He says “it would pain you more than it would please me”, ie he would like to kiss the boy but he does not want to hurt his host’s feelings. Furthermore, the sources are describing this as an explicitly erotic thing, and saying that Alexander is “excessively keen on boys” and also that he has a coterie of attractive young ‘eromenoi’ (pederastic beloveds) around him

>>19956050
Waugh's also one of the most hard-line Catholics, twice married, and makes it clear he hates fairies. His brother Alex got into trouble because he published a book about how common homosexuality was in British public schools, and Waugh had to go to a different school to get into Oxford to have those homosexual affairs.
To make the level of gay in his society, you needed to do a lot more than send ass pics to your mates and feel up fellow students. That was just imitating the Greeks for the upper class.
For most his contemporaries, he's not even bisexual, he's just a Catholic who renounced youthful indiscretion. For you, he's gay, despite the seven kids, because your line on gay is different to the early and mid twentieth century's one. In fact, I think people might have a hard time talking you down from gay to bisexual, the same way most people would have had with "he didn't metanoia the gay away".

>>19956080
>“excessively keen on boys”
Athenaeus is the source for this, who was not a historian and says this without any proof or examples. I cannot find the claim of the eromenoi in any of the sources, and if there was such a cohort it would’ve been mentioned. There are many stories of Alexander with women, specific examples and events in his life, but all that there is for homosexual love is this eunuch story (already proven to be unsubstantial) and conjecture about Hephaestion.

>>19956080
>it was out of consideration for that boy’s lover.
It was the boy's father who offered the boy, unless I'm thinking of another example of Alexander refusing to kiss a boy.

>>19956518
Waugh didn’t just have a few youthful indiscretions in boarding school, he had at least three male lovers as an adult in university. When does Waugh “make it clear” he hates fairies? Even his Catholic novels like Brideshead Revisited have homoeroticism. Also, no, sending pictures of yourself nude to your literal boyfriend is not typical British upper class heterosexual behaviour. You literally have to skew facts because you desperately need Waugh not even to be bisexual, but simply a straight man who had a few dalliances.

>>19956694
>I cannot find the claim of the eromenoi in any of the sources
? The original Greek sources of the texts I’ve posted literally use the word eromenos to refer to Alexander’s companions, as I have indicated. Also, Athenaeus is not himself the source of those stories but is quoting from lost historical texts. His other quotations of texts that are extant are accurate so I don’t have reason to doubt the veracity of those ones. Yes, there are many stories of Alexander with women, I don’t know why you think this is mutually exclusive with his interest in boys.
>>19957120
Not in the Athenaeus

>>19956518
For reference, the character Sebastian Flyte in Brideshead Revisited is based on two of Waugh’s lovers, Hugh Lyon and Alexander Graham (the one in the nude photo)

>>19957289
They’re either referring to Bagaos as an eromenos or Hephaestion. Nothing about a coterie, did you make that up or find it somewhere?

Also, the sources referring to Hephaestion as Alexander’s eromenos do so in spite of the lack of evidence of the two having such a relationship at all. It appears to be a romanticized image of the two from long after their time.

>>19941782
>>19941755
>>19941056
The main problem is not only that it's usually baseless but that they're using some taxonomy of sexuality that developed in the West only in the 70-80s, which is disingenuous and obscures their own concepts and understanding.

>>19945648
they were hard gays not soft gays

>>19957334
I am thinking of this excerpt:
>Euxenippus was still very young and a favourite of Alexander's because he was in the prime of his youth, but though he rivaled Hephaestion in good looks he could not match him in charm, since he was rather effeminate.
Curtius, The History of Alexander 7.9.19

I haven’t checked the original text so I’m not sure what ‘favourite’ is translating here, but it might be eromenos.

>>19957396
I just checked the Latin text and it does not use eromenos, it uses some normal courtly rank.

>>19957396
>>19957516
And the Latin doesn’t even mention him being effeminate.

Historical revisionism by trannies makes me genuinely feel sick

>>19957537

>>19941056
>Anglos
You mean women.

>>19957335
Very true. I wrote >>19949566 and during my research I found that not only was homosexuality not a big deal in Edo era Japan, “homosexuality” as a concept cannot be translated into anything in their society. The same is true for Ancient Greece.

>>19948509
>>19949566
Make you wonder how reliable are these western scholars writing about non Western subjects that people usually cite as fact

>>19957554
Name one example

>>19957838
Alexander the Great

>>19957838
see>>19941056

>>19957293
>>19957281
>Anons figure this is news
>Anon's figure this is also proof he's gay and was regarded as gay
So, we're just imposing today's standards on yesterday? And apparently we're annulling his second marriage too.

>>19958131
Well, if Waugh isn't gay, they need a new reason to keep plushies.

>>19941056
Read Lacan to find out.

>>19958143
>vaguely mentions le sex man to seem deep
I'm going to pin you down, how does Lacan explain this? You have 10 minutes.

>>19957889
>>19957906
OK? Show an example of a modern historian saying that Alexander and Hephaestion were lovers. They will probably just say "we don't know much about them, early sources don't indicate anything is erotic about their relationship, but later sources do"

>>19958131
>today's standards
cope. evelyn waugh didn't live in the 1500s. most men from his time would have considered him a fruit.

>>19957281
>sending pictures of yourself nude
Nudes like >>19956050 are classically inspired. Early photography imitated painting, and it only became gay once it stopped being classically inspired. They are deliberately doing things with plausible deniability in court. Waugh expunged everything that was actually incriminating.

Pictures like this only start becoming read as always gay much later. Just like bathhouses at the time were not gay venues, and nude sunbathing was normal. There is a difference between a von Gloeden classical nude and a Plüschow porn shot, and how likely they are to get you arrested for your trip to Sicily, even though both photographers would be considered gay now. Waugh's still in the period where a picture of Sandow could be for "physique" and Delacroix's Odalisque wasn't just showing her tits so you could rub one out. Academic art nudes like pic related by Gaudenzio Marconi were still art, the same as a painting of the same subject, while without the classical posing or to uneducated people it was porn. Graham's photo to Waugh is referential enough to be art if you're classically educated.

>>19958267
But anon, von Gloeden only distributed his photographs of nude boys and men to a select audience. They were not widely published like his more palatable works. He only gained fame for those later. I'm not sure what you're arguing though. I am just saying that the idea it does not reflect on Waugh's sexual inclinations at all is silly.

>>19958188
Except they didn't because being a fruit involved a lot more of the behaviours that Stephen Tennant would have been known for. There's a difference between a fairy and a fruit and someone who is homosexual.

>>19941056
Some people on the Internet consider sexuality the most important character trait.

Mention an author's interest in women? I don't care!
Mention his interest in men? It's beat down time...

We got way too cocky straight bros...

>>19958275
You mean going off to Sicily might have been a rich gay men only thing that built the high class tourism in the area the same way it did in Capri? Good thing Waugh never hung out with people who might have read Wilde's Salome published alongside von Gloeden's nudes, or who might have heard of DH Lawrence. Or Compton Mackenzie's lesbian novels.

>>19943612
>there would have never been a library of Alexandria or a neo-Platonist school based in Alexandria either.
If only.

>>19958316
>Salome
Imagine if they let Plüschow illustrate it. He used females; there would have been a riot.

>>19958295
ywnbarw

>>19958188
>most men from his time would have considered him a fruit.
lol what? by that standard most men at the time were gay because most men at the time would have done similar things at school. back then if you wound up with a wife, you were fine. confirmed bachelors are the gay ones. getting a wife undid all the gay and let you out in society.

Just a thought

Who is more likely to be a homosex projecting queer, a great man in of history, or some faggot historian?

>it's another edition of anon is mad that "being gay" didn't exist for most of human history as an identity
>nooooo if they rubbed some guy's dick once they are gay forever and everyone would have refused to believe they were normal
I see a lot of anon's straight identity is tied up in the idea they never crossed swords. Daily reminder if you don't have a wife by 35, ancient societies view you as gayer than married men who regularly jack each other off.

>>19958797
Why don't we listen to what a great man of history has to say?
>Don't you know your history?
>You will find there glorious heroes,
>Responding both actively and passively
>To their lithe and obliging friends.
>That was what Socrates got from Alcibiades
>Who, by my faith, was not a gloomy Greek;
>And just the same were Euryalus and Nisus.
>How many more could I name? A great number,
>Julius Caesar, about whom obscene tongues
>Told he was the husband of all the Roman women,
>When he was the wife of all the husbands.
>But just leaf through Suetonius
>And see how he deals with the Caesars.
>They are all included on this list;
>They all served the good god of Lampsacus.
>And if profane examples aren't enough
>For you, then let us shift our attack to the sacred:
>This good Jesus, how do you think
>He got John to sleep in his bed?
>Can't you see he was his Ganymede? 'Palladium' by Frederick the Great, 1748

>>19958831
>in a former era, incels were the true gays
No wonder this guy >>19958797 is a mad faggot.

Here's a burning question for you faggots: is Hylas gay and raped by women or is he straight and saved from gay sex with Heracles by nymphs?

>>19957281
>When does Waugh “make it clear” he hates fairies?
Have you not read Waugh? He describes his Oxford love affairs as a "phase" and relentlessly bullied Cecil Beaton. He even names (while homosexuality was illegal) the inspirations for Miles Malpractice. He comes to the defense of Harold Acton (part of the basis of Anthony Blanche's character) by saying that all the cruel and insane parts of the character are actually Brian Howard who is the main source for that kind of "aesthetic bugger", especially the Blanche and Silk characters (who are also underhanded and cruel and foreign or in love with German soldiers).
He regularly calls gay men pansies. One of the reasons that Waugh could publish half the things he said about homosexuality is because of how often he calls them derogatory names and portrays them as evil or narcissistic. There's loads of in jokes too, which Waugh wrote to remind queer friends of getting bullied-- being dumped in a fountain is likely a reference to when Cecil Beaton was dumped in the river for wearing makeup and everyone waited around to see "if the fag drowned".

>>19959077
The story of Hyals is supposed to be a metaphor for a boy growing up and ceasing to be an appropriate object of affection for an adult man. Hylas is a cute young boy ( so it's ok for Hercales to fuck him ) then he grows up and is attracted to women and thus symbolically dies. The nymphs kill the relationship between Hylas and Heralces, and Hylas's social role as "boy."

>>19959407
Ok Mr Freud but who are your sources?

>>19959412
It's just an interpretation. It's a myth, the symbolic meaning is open to interpretation.

>>19959421
>I have not read the Greek or Roman poets
I expect nothing less from /lit/

>>19958837
>They all served the good god of Lampsacus.

What does this mean exactly?

>>19959427
What do you mean, do you want me to cite secondary scholarship that agrees with my interpretation?

>>19959428
In this context, Priapus.

>>19959455
No, just poems about Hylas.

>>19959468
I was just talking about the Argonautica. In which Hylas is abducted by nymphs. Wasn't that obvious from context?

>>19959479
>the Argonautica
The Appollonius of Rhodes one or the Latin one? Because he's only abducted in the Latin one, and the Argonautica (either one) isn't the only time Hylas appears.

>>19959506
I don't understand what point you are trying to make. Lots of myths and stories have variations. Rather than trying to socratically question me just make the point you want to make.

>>19959516
Which version is your interpretation from, so I can make sense of your interpretation from that text. My purpose is the same as every time in literature class you are asked to cite the text to which you are referring. This isn't some high level discussion on metaphysics; the title, original author, and translator should be visible on whatever edition you did read and I would like you to supply those details, you fucking autist.

>>19959533
I read the oxford world classic edition a few years ago when I was in university. My previous interpretation is the result of a class discussion. I don't really see how any of this is relevant? You don't have to be so formal about this. Say why you disagree with me, and say what you think a better alternative is.

>>19959558
How the fuck am I meant to know if I disagree with your interpretation when I could be reading an entirely different book? You're treating a request for basic info to start a discussion like I just told you I fucked your mom three times last night. All I can surmise from what you told me and your style of rhetoric is that I shouldn't hold out much hope for the quality of your uni class's discussion.

>>19959569
You are refusing to engage with the topic and endlessly debating the nature of the debate itself. You are like jew.

What is your interpretation of the Hylas myth, and why do you disagree with the one I presented?

>>19958303
>being proud of fucking guy’s as if it’s one’s ancestry
Lol

>>19959591
Most ancient pederasts also had wives and procreated.

>>19959077
The greeks and romans didn't have a concept of gay and straight like modern people do. The question doesn't make sense.

>>19959589
Why do you assume I'm disagreeing? What I'm telling your autistic dumb fuck ass is that I don't know where you got your interpretation from. You think this is a debate about your interpretation's rightness or wrongness but I can't even tell if it's right or wrong or even something in between without looking at the same text. Maybe the version you read says
>Hylas loves fat pussy and big boobies now he's a growed up man
I doubt it, but it could, since you expect me to psychically know which book you're talking about and treat any request for information on what book you're referring to exactly as though it must be a disagreement with your interpretation. Stop being so fucking retarded, there isn't any way for me to disagree with or agree with your interpretation of the text if you won't tell me what fucking text you are referring to.

>>19959619
I already told you the specific text I used?

>>19959625
You told me the publisher, and the title. I suspect it might be Flaccus' Argonautica, but it could also be an Appollonius original text where the translator cribbed from Latin or other translations, or a poetic translation which takes liberties. You haven't even given me the year. If you went to uni you should know how and why to cite a fucking text.

>>19959616
You could still answer the raped or saved parts technically.

>>19959642
I think you are missing the point. I've just compared a few versions by looking online and there don't seem to be significant differences in the Hylas abduction episode. The specific version I used was is the 2009 version translated by Richard Hunter.

Regardless my interpretation is not based in a vacuum, it depends on a broader context of late classical pederatsy. If you look at the epigrams and poems in the Greek anthology you will see it is a common motif to cite a boy becoming interested in women as a symbolic death, and when they can no longer have relationships with men. I'm not saying this is an iron-clad definite explanation of the episode, only that it seems to explain the purpose of the story. Without such a frame work, what is the point of including the abduction of Hylas story?

>>19959685
>there don't seem to be significant differences in the Hylas abduction episode.
Theocritus in Elegies is vitally different, and Appollonius is different to Flaccus. And lmao, you didn't even give me the title, because that edition is called Jason and the Golden Fleece.
Flaccus and Appollonius are not using the same language or within the same culture, and there are subtle differences between Appollonius and Flaccus because of this. In Flaccus, Hylas falls in love. In Appollonius, the nymph falls in love. Heracles reacts differently in both.
In Elegies, Hylas is clearly not happy and trying to call for help.
Depending on which of those three major versions you read, Heracles is away from the ship for very different lengths of time. Hylas' willingness also varies from fully willingly abandoning Heracles, to being drowned to stop him calling for help. If you're using the version where they hold his head under water, it's not supported. If you'd been reading Flaccus, it'd be wholly supported, decorous even.

And since the version you now provided enough hints to find the title of says it's from Appollonius, I can now ask you if the sea god featured in your decision that it was a move to adulthood.

>>19959766
As I said my interpretation is not based on a specific or contentious translations or phrasing. It's a myth that evolved and changed over time. My interpretation is of the core story, rather than of specific details. Think of it like the epic of how many differing and fragmentary versions we have of myths around Ganymede. It's still possible to have broad interpretations of the meaning of Ganymede in mythology. I feel similarly of Hylas. If I was writing a scholarly article I would go in depth on all of the variations and how they could fit into a given interpretation, but I'm not doing that. I am posting a comment on 4chan.

>>19959766
I meant Idylls by Theocritus, not Elegies. You definitely weren't going to read the warning to Gallus.

>>19959837
The core story is different in all of them, and the different tellings all have different social meanings. The specific details you came out with are much more related to the later and Roman interpretations which are bound up in Roman ideals of manhood. That's why I pointed to Flaccus as the most likely source, because elements you relied on are in his version, but aren't really present in the version you're actually citing. That could very well be a result of the translation you read, and not because Appollonius wrote any such thing, as it equally could be just headcanon your class developed outside the text.

>>19959873
In your view how does Roman manhood differ from Greek manhood?

>>19959951
In relation to the two Argonautica, the Latin has Hylas as the active cause of his own manhood, while the Greek is entirely passive and handled by elders.

not being straight = your whole personality in burgerland

>>19959981
About as many of their kids believe they're queer as believe in the literal devil