/lit/ - Literature

>>19764406
Imagine reading even one page of this, let alone writing it.

>internet pseduo-socialism
Is it about the "powers that be" using identity politics to prevent people from uniting around shared economic interests?

He’s right and based.

Turned out to be true. I never paid them any mind. Good on the Maup.

>>19764419
It disses Contrapoints and the fat guy without a shirt. Cathartic for some I guess.

who cares

>>19764424
the advent of mobile social media decreased political literacy crossed with the rising of millennial milquetoast liberalism. social values are easier to identify with than economics, increasing foothold of economics of tolerance versus economics of wealth in everyday discussion. idea is rising over data.

>>19764406
Maupin is a joke and failed grifter who doesn't believe half the things he says. His current schtick of "the fight for socialism in the US needs to be intertwined with the history and culture of the US" is valid but he approaches it with the most reductive, cartoonish view of the American working class. Its caused him to adapt certain aspects of right populism in the way he markets itself. I don't believe the accusation that he's actually strasserist, just that he's such an opportunist that he appears sometimes to be rightwing.

I haven't read the book and never will. Why would I listen to a critique involving imperialism from someone who 1) currently bases a lot of his political identity on support for the second largest imperialist power in the world and 2) used to be on the payroll of the 3rd biggest imperialist power in the world (Russia when he worked for RT).

Also I met Maupin one time and he's a really friendly, approachable guy. I like him.

>>19764494
>I haven't read the book and never will. Why would I listen to a critique involving imperialism from someone who 1) currently bases a lot of his political identity on support for the second largest imperialist power in the world and 2) used to be on the payroll of the 3rd biggest imperialist power in the world (Russia when he worked for RT).
Because as someone who did read the book, I can tell you that it is hilarious.

I like that one anon's theory that Youtube began propping these channels up artificially after learning their site had a reputation for reactionary/edgy content, hence breadtube getting popular from '17 onward and reactionary channels getting censored and dying off

>>19764494
>Its caused him to adapt certain aspects of right populism … appears to be rightwing
Probably more to do with his being a tankie.

Where are you on the political compass?

>>19764406
oh no leftists bros what do we do our grift has been called out

>>19764494
the only imperialist country now is the US.

>>19764518
hasanabi chads...

>>19764406
Yeah it's obvious Breadtube is a CIA op made to make zoomer leftists impotent. I read an article on CC detailing how Vaush admitted to being a CIA hire.

>>19764406
>don't listen to these intellectually dishonest useful-idiot internet leftists, listen to these other intellectually dishonest useful-idiot internet leftists instead!

>>19764494
>3rd biggest imperialist power in the world
Russia isn't imperialist

>>19764507
their has also been a dramatic decline in quality of left-wing youtube, compare Pierre-Tru-Dank, very well read, popular in 2017 to Vuash

>>19764406
wtf is this and where can I watch Contrapoints's inevitable rambly meltdown on it?

>>19764515
>>19764515
tankies are reactionaries for the twentieth century (1918-1991), and seek to return humanity to this era, this is a noble task as this was a prosperous and happy age of human civilization

>>19764540
>how Vaush admitted to being a CIA hire.
most likely joking

>>19764557
https://u1lib.org/book/16673675/eedbad

>>19764406
Maupin got destroyed in the debates with Cultured Thug and Eric Striker

>>19764558
The age of exuberance is gone forever. Until fusion energy or something.
But I’ve noticed that all the statist socialists are rightwing, and current China are just outright fascist.

>>19764577
>Until fusion energy or something.
Leftoids and techno utopianism, name a more iconic duo.

>>19764577
both fascism and communism are millenarian pseudo-religious ideologies that promise heaven on earth to those who are worth (working class, or members of a particular nation)

>>19764594
Rightoids and strategic impotence

>>19764599
Woah dude that's so fvcking deep...you're clearly very intelligent...

>>19764547
Ukraine would like a word

>>19764558
>1919 Plague
>Great Depression
>Holocaust
>Holodomor
>Great Leap Forward
>CIA Banana Republic Wars
>Baby Boomers coming latching onto power
happy and prosperous

>>19764600
>Implying there's been a single left wing movement in the West that has seriously threatened the status quo since the 1930s

>>19764608
>Washington backed government in Kiev oppresses Russian minority
>Russia (surprise surprise) intervenes to protect them
>"Omg Russia is so heckin imperialist 100 r/unwholesome!!"

>>19764594
Besides the climate disaster, the technological age recedes with the fossil fuels reserves.

>>19764608
The US wanted them to join NATO so they can park nukes on the border within a few miles of Moscow. There’s nothing imperialist from their stance on this threat.
Watch
https://youtu.be/JrMiSQAGOS4

>>19764612
Sure but it's probably more fun to be the attack dog than be the diabetic boomer getting mauled by the attack dog...

>>19764434
>I've had sex with, not even escorts—I've gone to a brothel, Artemis, in Berlin, and had sex with the workers there," he said. Piker has been outspoken on streams and Twitter before about sex workers' rights

I always found the leftist influencers to be really creepy.Wokeness" just a reversion to a crude and archaic form of paternalism(think the slave plantations of old dixie). there are no limits to control and exploitation if they are grounded on supposed primordial qualities. What are these discourses of white fragility if not disciplinary discourses, were the good master (liberal white elites) attempt to compel obedience from the slaves (white and black alike) through the threat of the bad master. Gender and race become innate categories again. Ignoring the question of how these things are a product of disciplinary mechanisms designed to create productive subjects within the capitalist system.


Contrast with the old liberal paternalism of the late 20th century were it was a question of educating people to be autonomous citizens of the world, think the old BBC or PBS documentaries. You could argue it was a somewhat midbrow superficial approach to public education loaded with bourgeoisie class biases. But its just depressing to compare it with what came afterward. PMC leftoids have no respect for their audience or constituency. A taboo on saying bad words like nigger or retard or faggot to divert attention from the fact you are being psyopped into a worldview were you have no right to define yourself your body and your mind do not really belong to you but are resources to be exploited by someone else. Notice how "woke" discourse is effectively a product of powerful interest groups, from the security state(hence emphasis on countering 'radicalization' over a positive political program) the sex industry( normalize and expand prostitution aka 'sex work' and pornography) the psychiatric establishment( fake DSM categories treated as essential identities) the culture industry(representation of identities in pop culture) subjecting social minorities to a program of biopolitics were you can be gay or change your gender and there are many genders now but effectively you just have an nth number of biopolitical identifiers converging in the same ideology and mandatory character structure.

See also sociologist erving goffman who talked about total institutions(such as the hospital the prision or the psychiatric asylum) divided between inmates and staff. Thats the post liberal model of power the doctor that knows better than his patients but has sold out to the pharmaceuticals. Goffman also popularized the term stigma so beloved of libs. They want to keep the stigma just move it around as to make people easier to control. ie. 'Destigmatize' being fat to sell more corn syrup or opiates to sell more fetanyl or 'sex work' to psyop women into whoring themselves out as prostitutes. under the surface its not radical, but perverse and coercitive.

>>19764609
compared to the poverty and misery of older ages, and the lack of social fabric in the twenty first century, the twentieth century is clearly superior to all other time periods

>>19764639
>yeah the power of workers is far worse than it was 70 years ago but at least we get to make fun of magatards on Twitter

>>19764599
i agree, but then people like you for some reason oppose basic workable solutions. for you, it's always postponed.

>>19764641
Is that a quote from the book?

>>19764655
Not that they would see it that way, but realistically they get pretty much free reign to go wreck up shit around the country and the one time right-of-center boomers tried it they got Guantanamo treatment.

>>19764636
>fossil fuels reserves.
>believing mainstream fuel theory
>not realizing they have been covering up Abiogenic petroleum theory for decades

I had no idea you were so captured by the framing of Anglo-Liberal Techno-Malthusianism , Butters.

>>19764672
Are you saying we’ll never run out again?

>>19764678
Of course not. There are entire oceans of the stuff deeper in the crust, the major corps strangle development to secure their monopoly over a limited number of pipelines for financial and geopolitical reasons.

Not to mention that since Petroleum is not inorganic, but in fact a living substance, we should theoretically be able to learn to farm it sustainably.

>>19764695
>we should theoretically be able to learn to farm it sustainably.
Maybe when we all live in pod cities in Antarctica.

I feel like I log off just for knowing what the title refers to

>>19764608
Ukraine isn't real it was created because they fear Russia

No state is real bro

>>19764424
>We also know who did this and why.
Is that so?

>>19764406
Don’t like Breadtube, seems like a waste of time to spend hour on YouTube when I could be working/forming bonds with other workers.
Won’t read that grifters book though. Gives me real CIA vibes, but as stated I’m not so familiar with “breadtube” as a whole, so maybe not as CIA as others.
Does Badmouse still exist?

>>19764406
Relevant:
https://theanarchistlibrary.org/library/ted-kaczynski-the-system-s-neatest-trick

> In this way the activists are able to maintain the illusion that they are rebelling against the System. But the illusion is absurd. Agitation against racism, sexism, homophobia and the like no more constitutes rebellion against the System than does agitation against political graft and corruption. Those who work against graft and corruption are not rebelling but acting as the System's enforcers: They are helping to keep the politicians obedient to the rules of the System. Those who work against racism, sexism, and homophobia similarly are acting as the Systems' enforcers: They help the System to suppress the deviant racist, sexist, and homophobic attitudes that cause problems for the System.

> But the activists don't act only as the System's enforcers. They also serve as a kind of lightning rod that protects the System by drawing public resentment away from the System and its institutions. For example, there were several reasons why it was to the System's advantage to get women out of the home and into the workplace. Fifty years ago, if the System, as represented by the government or the media, had begun out of the blue a propaganda campaign designed to make it socially acceptable for women to center their lives on careers rather than on the home, the natural human resistance to change would have caused widespread public resentment. What actually happened was that the changes were spearheaded by radical feminists, behind whom the System's institutions trailed at a safe distance. The resentment of the more conservative members of society was directed primarily against the radical feminists rather than against the System and its institutions, because the changes sponsored by the System seemed slow and moderate in comparison with the more radical solutions advocated by feminists, and even these relatively slow changes were seen as having been forced on the System by pressure from the radicals.

>>19764866
>Badmouse
Last I saw he found some British woman and she told him something that he didn’t elaborate on. Totally flaked on his whole political ideals? I donno. Was many years ago though.

>>19764866
>>19764882
He is still around. He came back 6 months ago to drop anti-breadtube videos. I only know him from this new stuff though, no idea about what he was doing years ago.

https://youtu.be/mty7Eq-phgM

>>19764882
Huh, fair enough. My biggest take-away from him was libgen.is. Mentioned it a few times and I’ve been using that ever since. Been hosting some of the content ever since too.
>>19764890
That’s cool I guess, don’t go on much anymore so I’m not invested enough to really know what the go is with breadtube v anti-breadtube. It all feels very manufactured and that is enough to warrant suspicion for me. I’ll stick to books for now.

>>19764406
It's a funny schizo rant

>>19764406
Breadtubers are literally funded by the government and CIA

https://youtu.be/GC-81f-Penc

>>19764566
>MUH DEBATEBROS
nobody has ever thought these spectacles were anything more than fast food entertainment. they certainly do not even begin to scratch at anything resembling intellectual content. this kind of shit was cringe as fuck back in 2016 and i can tell you age has not done it any favours

>>19764577
>china is fascist
this is your brain on anarchism

>>19764956
Oh no, please don't say you have become a dorean butter :(

>>19764636
>There’s nothing imperialist from their stance on this threat.
Wow butters is actually right about something

>>19765052
they are part of the system now find some new e-daddies

>>19764878
Kaczynskiites also play hard into “the system’s neatest trick.” Radical environmentalism is adulated by tptb. It’s quite hard not to play into “the neatest trick” because all public discourse is regulated so as to produce beneficial responses to the System. Even, of course, if these responses are on their surface rebellious.

>>19765052
Dore has been spot on since I first found him in 2016.
>>19765142
I’m normally right.
>>19765001
It’s the cold hard truth.

>>19764515
>Probably more to do with his being a tankie.
I'm pretty familiar with his circle, and what they do goes way beyond standard Stalinist cringe. They're trying to build a flag-waving patriotic socialism in the US. Some of them believe they need to openly embrace evangelical christianity, and some more of them are clearly flirting with conservative stances on social issues though they'll only make their positions explicit on gender issues.
>Where are you on the political compass?
Small t trotskyist meaning I embrace trotsky's analysis of the USSR and the theory of permanent revolution. Also agree with the transitional method. But I don't feel like I need to be the lawyer for every cringe take/method propagated by every trotskyist org since his death.
>>19764534
What about all the other ones that are exporting capital to the global south? Have you read Lenin's Imperialism? If so then why didn't you vote for it in the top 100 books poll a few weeks ago. I know you didn't, because it only got 7 votes, which were all me
>>19764547
cringe

>>19765200
how do I rebel against the system

>>19764878
>idealized platitudes which center nebulous notions of "the System" and "rebellion" rather than well-defined political categories that have anything to do with the interests of ordinary people and/or the ruling class
Wow I am so surprised that this can be found on the anarchist library dot org

>>19765290
>JIMMY DORE JIMMY DORE JIMMY DORE I FUCKING SUCK JIMMY DORE'S DICK 24/7 365 ALL OF MY TALKING POINTS ARE VERBATIM QUOTES FROM JIMMY DORE
i hate you so fucking much butterfly

>>19765290
>I’m normally right.
lol

>>19764803
You tell me.

>>19765420
That’s cool. I’m not too versed in him, but have a general dislike. I’m a believer in in direct democracy and if an area is majority evangelical Christian, then they ought to be able run things their way. People who don’t like that would move

>>19765522
>>19765561
Try to say something substantive next time.

>>19765586
>Try to say something substantive next time.
likewise

>>19765470
The time is not yet come. Be ready for the moment it is so the opportunity doesn’t slip.

>>19764878
Does this include the trad types too? I feel like their rebellions don't cause any dent towards the System.

>>19764890
Interesting and a pretty realistic take on the "ethnos". I was a pinko liberal and came to the same realization as the guy in the video, but I became a right-wing authoritarian instead. As a person from a postcolonial county, my ancestors genocided and kicked out the white colonizers from my country, so of the government doesn't hold the minorities down (either by force or by persuasion/deradicalization), they'd get uppity, demand more autonomy or even independence, and kill some of us. It's just basic human nature.

I think that guy's an idiot though if he's a white British, but that's his problem.

>>19765835
Sri Lanka?

>>19765586
>but have a general dislike
Many Trotskyists are also uncomfortable with the outcome of the Kronstadt rebelliion. Regardless of your position on it, I find it kind of funny that Trotsky is attributed sole responsibility for the repression of Kronstadt. Idk, maybe you're referring to something else about him that you disagree with. He did fuck art hoes so you've got that in common with him.
>I’m a believer in in direct democracy
Tbh I don't really have any opinion on abstract, possibly utopian plans for organizing society. The immediate objective is class struggle. Marx refrained on commenting on what a socialist society would look like until he saw the Paris Commune unfold. The Paris Commune was 150 years ago and the USSR lost all of its democratic character a little less than 100 years ago, so in the current year we may as well be just as blind to what socialism would be as Marx was in the 19th century.
>and if an area is majority evangelical Christian, then they ought to be able run things their way. People who don’t like that would move
Okay, this is just kinda silly dude. "People who don't like that would move." This doesn't actually happen. Dozens of material and cultural factors bootstrap people to the town they grow up in. Do you support the abortion bans being passed in the southern US? But again, kind of a hard point for me to respond to because I can't imagine evangelical Christianity would be compatible with the type of society in which "direct democracy" would be possible.
That being said, the Bolsheviks post-revolution actually supported secession of non-Russian nationalities even if those nations would result in bourgeois states. Such was the early Bolshevik commitment to democracy.

>>19765851
Indonesia.

>>19765883
Are you Muslim?

>>19765420
>trotskyist

>>19765916
No, but I'd convert to Islam for the sake of unity if necessary, like many people do in the upper elite circle of this country. Say, if we're aspiring for a complete unity of SEA under one religion, one nation, and one language, that kind of project. I mean, it's pretty easy to do, and it's not like you'll lose anything except your mother crying at you for a while or something. Religion is just a tool of politics, after all. In the end it's all about the in-group/out-group thing.

>>19765854
>I can't imagine evangelical Christianity would be compatible with the type of society in which "direct democracy" would be possible
Good point. Truth is they’ll probably stay statist af. The prepper anti-government types of rightwingers are probably the only ones who might join. Class struggle between the lower classes is a thorny issue. Disunity is always the problem.
What should I read of Trotsky, direct or indirect, in your opinion?

>>19765939
What do you think Hitler thought of Trotsky's analysis of fascism? Oh, you haven't read it have you.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1944/1944-fas.htm

>>19765991
Tough question to answer because I don't know what you have or haven't read. Feel free to tell me a bit more about your background. All of trotsky's great contributions are nested pretty deeply within a broader theoretical context. The theory of permanent revolution for example is a pretty significant revision of the standard marxist formula of "socialism comes after capitalism". My favorite by him is his history of the russian revolution, but it's about 1000 pages long. When I use that book in reading groups I isolate about 6 or 7 chapters which I could recommend to you, but idk if those in isolation would make much sense without a broader context. Idk, maybe I'd recommend the link above as being a very straightforward yet theoretically watertight analysis of fascism. And if you like it then just read more marxism if you haven't already.

>>19765960
>it's not like you'll lose anything except your mother crying at you for a while or something.
Would she cry because she practices some indigenous religion? Indonesia is like 90% Muslim so I thought you probably were too.

>>19766093
The legacy of Trotsky is neoconservatism while the legacy of Stalin is China & Cuba. A Marxist is only as good as his ability to materialize his theory in reality. Trotsky’s warmongering & advocacy for a violent upturning of all global stability resulted in the severe interventionism of the US.

Do you support Trotsky’s calls for war against the USSR when he toured the West? Washington technocrats loved it.

>>19766413
>the legacy of Stalin is China & Cuba
"Socialism in one state" working proved fascism was correct the whole time.

>>19765200
followers of kac aren't radical enviromentalists

>>19766431
That the best you got? Just slapping fascist on everything you don’t like? China is authoritarian. It’s a dictatorship of the proletariat. The working class has benefitted immensely from the party while a bourgeoisie has been prevented from forming. This is all the point of communism of course.

Fascism as communists always understood it was (& still is) the militarization of the international bourgeois to protect & expand their capital. This does not describe the USSR or China. Calling anything you don’t like fascist greatly deludes possibly productive discourse. It adds to the confusion that must be untangled for revolutionary change to ever occur.

>>19766519
God damn Orwell is garbage. His platitudes make libtards of everyone.

>>19766537
Authoritarian capitalism, with racist and classist overtones intact is close enough to a form of fascism for me. Like trying to discern the difference between the DNC and the RNC. Little actual air between them.

>>19766565
Overtones? You just “get the feeling” it’s fascism? This is totally unspecific & not at all in line with Marxist critique. It’s ideology. What for instance about China is classist or racist?

>>19766586
The non-Han get the feeling more.

>>19766607
Read this https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cfr.org/backgrounder/uighurs-and-chinas-xinjiang-region%3famp It’s a western source so no need to worry about ccp propaganda. Basically there are separatist terrorist groups
In Xinjiang trying to destabilize the region. Also China is afraid of the US using these groups to foment counter-revolution like the US has done countless times in the Middle East, notably against the USSR: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=00Cvx0R8iDo While no doubt there have been innocent Uyghurs detained it’s not like they’re being killed. They get taken to trade schools & learn a vocation, learn mandarin etc. The goal is to educate would-be terrorists & bring them into society.

Plus why would Beijing ever want to genocide Uygurs anyway? How does that make sense for them strategically? Is it just because they’re racist? No. Having a foothold in the Middle East is very important for China right now because it’s where they get their oil & they’re seeking to expand their economy there through the belt & road initiative. As China’s economy outgrows itself it’s become necessary for them to look to places like the Middle East. Therefore it’s nonsensical to think they’re committing genocide in this region.

>>19766693
I don’t buy into the genocide hysteria.
The racism/Han supremacy assimilation technique runs deeper.
Sleepy. Read more later. Like the talk.

>>19766716
Agreed that there is lots of racism amongst the Chinese. But I expect that to change as material conditions improve in the same way religion fades away as a crutch for incommensurate justice in an unjust society. Really, material progress has been the only means by which reactionary thought evaporates. The imposition of progressive ideals on different societies hardly works. They have to reach these ideals themselves.

This can also be seen in China’s foreign policy. How does China expect to stabilize the Middle East? Investment & progress. Rather than regime change & imposition of foreign governmental structures. This is peace through friendship not force. Iran is a theocracy right now but through their collaboration with China I expect their government & culture to evolve to a more just form.

You'll all discover that socialism is a dead end eventually. It's nothing more than a vehicle for state atheism. The moment I discovered the immaterial layers of reality I abandoned it.

>>19766880
>You'll all discover
This is optimistic, regardless of whatever follows it.

>>19766716
Have you read 'Seeing like a State' by the same author? If not, i would highly recommend it.

>>19764406
I like Maupin's personality and he seems to be quite earnest I his views.
I also agree that the currant "leftist" movement just serves neo liberalism more than anything else and ultimately it won't help anyone.
However alot of what he's saying does come off as schizoid rambling and you'll never convince the breadtube fanclub to abandon their golden idols without some sort of sex scandal or whatever (which actually doesn't seem that unlikely in the future).

>>19764608
>>>/r/eddit

>>19766537
>Fascism as communists always understood it
the communist understanding of fascism has been considered ahistorical kitsch for decades

>>19766519

despair swelling

>>19766537
Embarrassingly retarded post Holy fucking shit lmao. China is growing the world largest Middle class and fascism is not "le bourgeoisie in decay!!!".

What the fuck even is socialism

>>19767168
Power to the people

>>19764577
>China is fascist
of course a dumb white western woman calls China, a country that has 100 years of communist party leadership, 'fascist'.
Are you fucking retarded, what kind of braindamage do you have that you call China fascist?
The 95million CCP members are just dumbasses, their disciplined reading groups reading Hegel, Marx and every other contemporary and ancient (political) philosophers makes them overlook that butterfly from 4chan clearly sees 'they are fascist'.

please ellaborate on your findings genius.

>>19764424
Funny how it’s always a white “leftist” bringing this up.

>>19767849
so power to no one?

>>19766565
>authoritarian capitalism
you are thinking like an anglo empiricist and don't understand dialectics, i bet you think socialism is 'when workers own the means of production' and 'can vote at everything the company does'.
Yay sunshine, rainbows and butterflies!
Marx named countless different types of 'socialism' including reactionary types. Matter of fact, we all already live in socialism. The USA is socialist.
You need to rethink what political economy is and appericiate the difference how China and the USA deal with their contradictions. China is a people's republic while the USA a corporate republic.

>>19767915
You guys will never be able to accept that fascism is literally just another interpretation of Marxism will you? Here, let me spell it count for you:
>Fascism = Marxist economic thought + Nationalism
That’s all it is. Fascism is not in conflict with socialism, it is not an enemy of Marxist-Leninist thought, it is the end result of such ideologies. Yes, China is fascist. It’s argiably the most successful fascist state of all time.

>But China is communist! Not fascist! Communists hate fascism!
Mussolini predicted that fascism would change in its appearance and form to adapt to the place and time, and that has proven to be correct.

>>19764577
>Until fusion energy
dual energy principle(double edged sword) of material makes it so that EROEI of ANY energy source will require some form of geotrama to uphold stasis.

>>19767994
Since when does fascism embrace Marxism retard, fascism has always been a rejection of marxism.
Communist countries always had a national character and patriotic people, only western leftists who like to self flagellate and embarrass themselves reject any sort of patriotism and believe dumb shit like butterfly. That's why the western left is completely useless, matter of fact it might transform into a sort of fascism

>>19767939
guy who posted that clearly is not a leftist

>>19764608
Jewkraine was a meme made up to diminish the power of the Russian SSR.

>>19765799
From my conversations with them, it seems most tradfags have no practical solutions past wanting to make their own society like the Amish have.

>>19768070
>Communist countries always had a national character and patriotic people
>Communist countries have always been fascist
Now you’re getting it.

>>19765200
Radical environmentalism is definitely not although "Kaczynskiites" as another poster said are distinct from say, Earth First. "Radical" environmentalism like Extinction Rebellion is pushed by the system purposefully so people don't go any further just like tptb push boomer conservatism and milquetoast social democracy.

>>19767915
My criteria for fascism is state capitalist authoritarianism. Will that bring about communism (the exact opposite) someday? I’m very skeptical. But I’m not sad the US empire is sinking.

>>19767955
Natural and justifiable hierarchies ought stay, but maximum freedom and harmony is a goal.

>>19766880
Nah I got over my occult phase years ago. Saw the “immaterial layers.” But I read more. Those “immaterial layers” aren’t real in the sense you think they are. Having an obsession with self-produced hallucinations is idolatry, or ideology in the Marxist term.

>>19767168
gibe me dat for free

>>19767849

and this is better than direct democracy how

>>19767119
What do you understand fascism to be then?
>>19767141
>China is growing the world largest Middle class
Yes this is good
>fascism is not "le bourgeoisie in decay!!!".
Yes it is, the bourgeoisie in decay is what led to the historical phenomenon of fascism.

>>19768150
Hm? Direct democracy would bring that

>>19768141
>authoritarianism
Literally a meme word. Stfu. Every state is authoritarian. And by your definition then, any capitalist state is fascist. Why even use the word capitalism or fascism then if they're the same thing? This is why I fucking hate how much fascism is overused. Honestly my bar for whether someone is worth listening to or not is how much they use fascism. And this includes the people who say "we shouldn't overuse the word because REAL fascism might come and nobody will believe it" as if fascism is some existential evil and not just a historical loosely related group of movements that are hardly even relevant today outside of like, certain Italian towns where neo-fascist parties continue to have support. It causes anti-capitalist movements to be totally impotent because there's always the greater threat of fascism, so from there lesser-evilism is only one logical step away.

>>19767994
This, I've seen people link Gramci's thought to that of Gentile (Main Philosopher of Fascism), if I don't misremember a guy called Diego Fusaro goes into this, especially due to their revision of Marxism tends to mix up. But overall and tracing back the revisions that eventually develop into Mussolini's thought, as you say, Engels could be considered one of the first revisionists since he tried to encapsulate the theory of darwin within the framework of Marxism, but all of this just caused confusion. Eventually you got people like Kautsky that try to add up the idea of struggle for existence but in the end disregard it. Lenin of course comes into place as one heterodox revisionist, Sorel himself could be considered part of this line of thought that eventually develops into the introduction of idealist values into Marxism.

When Mussolini comes into place, he takes a hold of all the previous revision before him, and eventually develops its own practical yet formulated way of Socialism distanced from Marxism through a drink of different sources, especially from figures like Sorel, Nietzsche, Proudhon and Corradini. He pretty much ends up with a conclusion that was once summarized like this by him: "The future of the proletariat is a problem of will and ability, not of will alone, not of ability alone, but of ability and will at the same time. You have escaped the game of political influences." As he said several times, he was trying to make Marxism stay away from Marx and lead it torwards the practicality of a realistic revolution. The conditions that gave away torwards his line of thinking can be seen as first a recognition of the biological/evolutionary impulses of humanity, and the Nationalism on display during WW1.

>>19764406

American society is undergoing rapid decline under a tightly organized bureaucracy of high IQ nerds. As the middle and working class devolve into truly menacing, dysgenic peasant rabble. That's the basic form of what American society is, anything that stresses economic analysis, racism, da joos, class difference, etc is cringe. The essential issue in America is a lack of centralized authority regulating society. Culture comes from the bottom up instead of the top,.so harmful social fashions that bubble up out of the chaos end up taking over society with no resistance from any preexisting authority, or strongly held convictions from the people who create and maintain culture. It's a "nobody is on charge* problem

>>19768175
It describes their committee dictatorship perfectly fine
>every state is authoritarian
I’m an anarchist.
Some states let the capitalist run things. That’s not fascist, that oligarchic. Then there’s that rare week when you have a free market and you could go either direction. I label it fascist when it’s fascist, when it’s not “authoritarian” suits it fine. North Korea is totalitarian, but you’ll have a problem with that, I suspect.

>>19767915
>>19768070
>doesn't know what state capitalism means

>>19768227
Every socialist experiment was always “state capitalist” which is an already ambiguous phrase to begin with, since there was still classes even during the “dictatorship of the proletariat”, but due to consequentialist autism they tend to never think in the now of their aggression and policies since they always reee about good intentions.

>>19768161

direct democracy would bring an end to direct democracy?

>>19768219
>I’m an anarchist.
I could telll
>Some states let the capitalist run things. That’s not fascist, that oligarchic.
So you're just using 'fascism' to describe what people are in power rather than the actual state structures, got it.
And I'm not even getting into North Korea with an ancom

>>19767994
Fascism benefitted the bourgeoisie, communism benefitted the workers. It’s a degeneration of Marxism. “Bourgeois socialism” as Marx would call it.

>>19766485
What are they then

>>19768175
This

>>19768211
>biological/evolutionary impulses
Pure ideology Marx sought to destroy. Class struggle is what drives history NOT “biological impulses.” This is incompatible with Marxism.
>he was trying to make Marxism stay away from Marx and lead it torwards the practicality of a realistic revolution.
Seeing that he failed miserably means there must have been a flaw in his analysis. Meanwhile communism has been quite successful in their effort.

>>19768219
>I’m an anarchist.
The state is necessary for realizing the good. The absence of a powerful state is a mere vacuum that will soon be filled by a foreign state or the construction of a new state. Therefore an anarchist society is a non sequitur. Such a thing will never exist, it is a fantasy & the people who believe in it are children.

>>19767849
Liberals I fucking swear

>>19768451
Boomer mindset. The Worker soldiery zeitgeist of its time was btfo because of national socialist cultivation in each nation, the issue with Marx that arose the revisionist crisis came from paradoxes in the Enlightenment rationalism, which is the core of Marxist Hegelianism with the worker as a universal subject. Even Lukács later moved away from the teleological, Hegelian aspects and tried to focus on dialectics as a pragmatic science of revolution, but one aspect of that revolution, rather than a self-fulfilling prophecy and the core of the whole process, as we obviously we see today due to adoption. The self-fulfilling thing just didn't work, even when Lenin elevated it to a religion and gambled everything on it. The rationalist teleological historiosophy being wrong is the real meat of it’s time. it just wasn’t there even in 1890 and it was wasn’t there in 1919. At least with not some serious modification by all parties. Which is the “Marxist” thing to due in my eyes.

>>19768141
>harmony
no harmony in a democratic world, the endless civil conflicts that lead to nothing but stagnation and decay is where "real" democracy begins, it is the natural result of power ot the people

>>19768281
¿?
Direct democracy would be power to the people and bring “Liberté, égalité, fraternité”.

>>19768300
State and economic structures. I acknowledge the sloght differences between China, nazi Germany, Italian fascism and Stalinist USSR. They’re all too similar for me though. And yeah, don’t get me started on the differences between East Berlin and N. Korea.

>>19768483
Or temper the people themselves into an entity that can fend for itself. States actually never concede their power willingly. Your point of view is self defeating autism, degeneracy beget by a life and a history of statism. You conclude that we will die this way. A self fulfilling prophecy if ever there was one.

>>19768544
>but things be confuse! Noooo
Autists are scared of freedom

>>19768518
Says the statist capitalist

>>19768608
>sloght
SLIGHT

>>19768608
>sloght differences between China, nazi Germany, Italian fascism and Stalinist USSR
This week on boomercon or anarchist?

>>19768608
I actually agree that the USSR was pretty cozy with Germany, they share similarities with their new “Socialist man” but the inevitable fight that happened was due to geopolitical situations of two states wanting to expand as a block, not because of ideological reasons. Watch this documentary Butter.
https://youtu.be/IBPy4PbrHOU

>>19768608
>You conclude that we will die this way.
Not necessarily. Where the anarchist goes wrong is merely opposing the state. A proper Marxist approach is sublation of the state. That is, both opposing and affirming the state so as to reach a higher understanding of the state. In a communist society the state will not exist as it is understood now. It will exist as a rational machine, that governs through universal reason instead of power.

>>19768631
Gen X anarchist. Yeah, we don’t like unjustifiable hierarchies and want communism someday. Not industrial capitalism till the extinction event.

>>19768535
I don’t see your point here. Mussolini & Hitler failed while Stalin & Mao succeeded. How can one hold preference for fascism in light of this?

>>19768651
Just now read a line about the German need for “ghost acreage” resources in muh book. >>19764678


>>19768654
But, anon. That IS what anarchists are trying to do. Yes, there are foolish Individualists, but the main goal is for a societal shift. A series of neighborhoods organizing themselves is a state assembly of everyone. Indeed the borders encircle each of them. Making a one world nationstate of bureaucracy isn’t the way to this.

>>19768654
>In a communist society the state will not exist as it is understood now. It will exist as a rational machine, that governs through universal reason instead of power.
This is what Marxists actually believe

>>19767994
>You guys will never be able to accept that fascism is literally just another interpretation of Marxism will you?
The official term in China for World War II is the "World Anti-Fascist War." Seems a bit strange for a fascist country to call it that. Anyways, I've met Chinese people online who are in the Communist Youth League who consider themselves Marxists and communists. I don't know why it's so hard for people to believe this, but I think in the West, "communism" is seen as dead. As in truly finished and DEAD and that's it. The Cold War ended and this is the End of History and blah blah blah, so people can't even really imagine that China is run by a bunch of commies, which is something they never really understood to begin with. But I think the paranoid right-wing types who read the Epoch Times and think China is in fact communist and that's why it's bad are closer to the truth than what you're saying.

https://youtu.be/dYSFakz7Mcg?t=193

>>19766413
Ah, so you haven't read his analysis of fascism. Thanks for confirming that you haven't read what is probably his 3rd most highly regarded work, meaning you probably haven't read much if anything by him and so your criticism of Trotsky will be informed by biographical details it really is shocking the way you people think that anecdotes and accusations of "arrogance" constitute an argument against a political worldview rather than a survey of his works.
>The legacy of Trotsky is neoconservatism
By people who explicitly abandoned Marxism. You're also forgetting the leadership of the historic 1934 Teamster strike (SWP), the leadership of the poll tax rebellion that took down Thatcher's government (Militant Labour), the only elected Marxist in the US currently (Socialist Alternative), etc. Did you know that Chavez and Maduro were/are advised by Alan Woods (founder of the IMT). Prior to reading this post were you even able to name a single Trotskyist?
>Do you support Trotsky’s calls for war against the USSR when he toured the West
No, I support what he wrote in In Defense of October. I support what he wrote in the Revolution Betrayed. I support the exact same kind of critical support of the USSR which has been vocalized by literally every single Trotskyist organization ever besides the IST. But, sure, ignore this body of evidence and insist on biographical details.
I imagine the proof that the man who led the military of the USSR while it was being invaded later on called for invasion is about as substantial as Grover Furr's conspiracy that he conspired with the Nazis. But even if it did turn out to be true, that's fine and does nothing to contradict my world beliefs because unlike Stalinists I don't have to sycophantically and blindly defend every action of my dear leader.
>A Marxist is only as good as his ability to materialize his theory in reality.
>China
LMAO.
>roll back iron rice bowl
>cost of childcare so high and welfare state so pitiful that birthrates begin to decline
>break up the peasant communes
>centralize land ownership in large landowners
>hundreds of millions of landless peasants move to the cities adding to the reserve army
>restore inheritance of property
>sell off state assets at a rate of $50 billion per day
>CCP has more managers than industrial workers. also has more party/state employees than workers. also has billionaires in the party lmoa
>participate in strikebreaking and arrest labor organizers
Yes, true socialism. I'm so glad they're doing all of this so as to fulfill the Marxian prophecy of "developing the productive forces" (i.e. accumulation of capital).
Honestly dude you have to go back

>>19764494
>just that he's such an opportunist that he appears sometimes to be rightwing
what the fuck is wrong with that?

>>19767994
The other thing, btw, is if China is a fascist country, then why are they doing this? Why aren't they making friends with weird alt-right groups in America? Because they're not doing that. They're having meetings with communist groups and saying "hello comrades, we are pleased to have this meeting to discuss deepening our mutual steps to promote Marxism in the world."

There is no historical example of a fascist country doing this, other than China... if this is a fascist country... so they would be the first to ever do it. You have to believe that they're engaging in some 5D chess and it's all part of this incomprehensively devious plan rather than just coming to the obvious conclusion that they're Marxists.

https://youtu.be/TLut1SlLDLE

>>19765470
By calling Ted based and spamming basedjaks at anyone who disagrees

>>19764695
Technically this strangling of the supply of oil is good for climate change so our conspiracy theories that the oil companies are covering up climate change to protect profits in a way that is making climate change worse while simultaneously covering up non biological petroleum to protect profits in a way that makes climate change better.

Technically though there is a bit of incentive for the existing climate change companies to want to extract 100% of the oil then have control over, no more no less, so theoretically these two conspiracy theories can live together ironically.

>>19768848
I was aware of this too. But I did see some quote from Xi, which I suspect was just aimed at “western democracy”.
It’s encouraging.

>>19766093
My preferred analysis of fascism is that it is objectively the extremist wing of social democracy

>>19768805
>I imagine the proof that the man who led the military of the USSR
the military is the first place where the revolution was betrayed. The fact that you can even talk about someone having "led" it is proof enough of that. Why is the criticism of soviet bureauractism suddenly not applicable when it is the military?

>>19768848
China Zoomers will seriously be like "China is communist!! source: twitter"
>>19768834
idk dude but if you're not initiated enough to understand why opportunism is counter-revolutionary then I'm not sure if I want to spend the time having this conversation with you. Then again I'm also arguing here >>19768805 with someone who's likely about 19 years old and has a worldview entirely informed by twitter and reddit posts on r/TheStalin or whatever so it might be inconsistent to neg you.

>>19768908
>Why is the criticism of soviet bureauractism suddenly not applicable when it is the military?
That's literally one of the focal points of the critique. There's an entire chapter on this in The Revolution Betrayed, the single most important work for understanding the Trotskyist viewpoint.
Holy shit dude. You've literally never read anything by the person you're criticizing. Exit the thread before you embarrass yourself further.

>>19767072
>However alot of what he's saying does come off as schizoid rambling
The thing about Maupin is that he's not a Trotskyist but he used to be one. And I think there's something about Trotskyism in that it's very eschatological and appeals to the "Evangelical" type, but then you age into your thirties and face a dilemma that you've spent your life up to this point shilling socialism, and the revolution hasn't happened, so what's the point? Well, if you look back at the whole history, Trots tend to split into lots of little guru cults that "go for broke" and adopt very ultra-left-wing ideas, and some also do a metamorphosis and become neocons, or like Lyndon LaRouche back in the 70s who shifted to a very bizarre hybrid ideology that tried to rebrand his ideology as a renewed right-wing producerist industrial capitalism -- which started from LaRouche's belief that this would lead to socialism eventually. But he ended up dropping the socialist part altogether and supported Reagan (who further deindustrialized America).

I think Maupin is kinda similar to that and he's friends with LaRouche types, and there's this language that the revolution was "betrayed" by the "left" which also shares some DNA with Trotskyism -- which has always seen the central contradiction as being between the left or the workers and their leadership. There's language around conspiracies and so forth. It takes different forms depending on the group.

I don't even think his politics are all that bad, really. There are a lot of liberals who just sound completely nuts to me. But I'm naturally suspicious of people who try to be an ideological leader / guru person -- or appoints themselves as such. He has a little cult around himself and I don't think that's a good thing.

>>19768913
the point is that "left-wing" and "right-wing" don't actually exist. The fact that he "seems right-wing" is irrelevant. "Opportunism" in the sense that it was used where you start to support some weird unnecessary world war does not need a direction to be labelled onto it.

What the fuck does opportunism even mean? If you were to use normal people words the people who fell in line to support the world war were being non-opportunistic by refusing to have a revolution at a time which would negatively effect their country. Normal people view what Lenin did as opportunism.

>>19768913
>China Zoomers will seriously be like "China is communist!! source: twitter"
Well...

https://youtu.be/fzNU1hT98gA?t=33

>>19768925
>I was the one leading the thing that betrayed the revolution
>but trust me comrades this time I won't betray it

>>19768891
>the extremist wing of social democracy
And this is the view that resulted in the German Communist and Italian Communist parties from abstaining from the only type of struggle against fascism that could've prevented the fascists from coming to power. This line was only adopted because it was in accordance with the needs of the by-then Stalinist international at the time. It is one of the single most gigantic theoretical mistakes in the history of socialism which resulted in the working class and its leadership being slaughtered in the millions. And it was abandoned in practice after ww2.
Stalinists really will say "no the communists shouldn't align with the trade unions, yes the communists are allowed to align with the domestic bourgeoisie"

>>19764599
The correct answer. Reminds me of DH Lawrence's critique of marxism in "Women in Love". He says something very similar. Marxism as taking the Christian concern for the poor into overdrive and replacing God with the Means of Production. Moreover he depicts it as the flipside of the Capitalist: both worship the means of production but from different vantage points. The Capitalist/Industrialist to maximize efficiency, utilization in order to extract more. The socialist desires the same but only that they, the workers, be the ones controlling the levers...

>>19768942
Opposition Fascism is not the point of Communism

>>19768939
Good to see that you've been reduced to greentext and have no further argument. It might look like you've contributed nothing substantial in this post but actually you've made a minor contribution in reinforcing the fact that Stalinists in actuality employ no historical metanarratives other than the Great Man in History (this time as the Bad Man in History). If you'd like to read a materialist (i.e. Marxist) account, then read the Revolution Betrayed.

the thing you have to ask yourself is can a socialist alternative emerge in the context of imperialism without serving it? the answer is probably no. that's the nature of hegemony

but using that to discredit all criticism is low iq af

>>19768956
The revolution was betrayed the moment it launched because you weren't supposed to have a revolution in a semi-feudal backwater.
>Yes, true socialism. I'm so glad they're doing all of this so as to fulfill the Marxian prophecy of "developing the productive forces" (i.e. accumulation of capital).
You have to accumulate capital because not enough capital had accumulated prior to doing the revolution, which was the Menshevik position, which means I guess Trotsky was right the whole time, but then he decided to be wrong by joining the Bolsheviks and ended up being the leader of the thing that betrayed the revolution that occurred too early.

>>19768948
Fascism is counter-revolution and has to be stopped. The Bolsheviks effectively called a truce with the Mensheviks and SRs to put an end to the Kornilov affair, the first attempt we've seen in history at implementing fascism.
What's more is that the revolutionary party can distinguish itself in the eyes of the working class by snuffing out fascism, which is exactly what happened in August 1917 and the Bolsheviks membership swelled.

>>19768942
Well the descendants of the Stalinist orgs tend to support broad fronts against the right nowadays and they all trace that back -- whether they admit it or not -- to Dimitrov and the shift to the Popular Front. I think it tends to be "Maoists" (who are a distinct thing from Mao Zedong Thought in China which makes it funnier) who get into the ultra-left "social fascist" theories nowadays and want to punch their dad.

caleb is literally serving imperialism with this Lmao

>>19768969
So you're literally saying you're a menshevik lmao. Sure, the greatest event in human history which resulted in the first non-capitalist state that took mankind into fucking outerspace is something that shouldn't have happened.

>>19768977
Oh I totally agree with you. I should've underscored this but the "social fascism" theory was an ultraleftist sidestep which would be followed by right-wing opportunism for the remainder of Soviet foreign policy.

>>19768970
>Fascism is counter-revolution and has to be stopped. The Bolsheviks effectively called a truce with the Mensheviks and SRs to put an end to the Kornilov affair, the first attempt we've seen in history at implementing fascism.
Kerensky was still in power during the kornilov affair so you are basically saying the Boshelviks stopped being autistic for a single moment and fell in line into being vaguely anti-counter-revolution
>What's more is that the revolutionary party can distinguish itself in the eyes of the working class by snuffing out fascism, which is exactly what happened in August 1917 and the Bolsheviks membership swelled.
Your position just degenerates into being vaguely anti-rightist where you don't actually stand for anything. AKA the entirety of the mainstream leftist movement as it currently exists.

>>19764424
identity politics is just empathy and basic human decency towards marginalized folx. you will never see a queer person or a person of colour or aa sex worker opposing identity politics because for them its a literal matter of life and death. their mental health under siege from ceaseless microagressions and their lives are literally in danger from white supremacist terrorists like those responsible for the january 6th insurrection.

>>19769003
>Kerensky was still in power during the kornilov affair so you are basically saying the Boshelviks stopped being autistic for a single moment and fell in line into being vaguely anti-counter-revolution
Can you elaborate on how this is relevant? I don't think the SRs were revolutionary at all, especially not the right-wing Kerenskyist faction, so I don't see how Kerensky being in power provides some kind of exception.
>Your position just degenerates into being vaguely anti-rightist where you don't actually stand for anything
My position doesn't degenerate into anything. I'm not calling for childish black bloc adventurism. I'm saying that when an actual fascist movement poses an existential threat to forms of working class struggle an organization in pre- or proto-revolutionary moment, the revolutionary party should lead resistance against.

>>19768970
I mean if these people are going to call you a fascist for the crimes of not wanting to be a second class citizen in your own country reading old books having thoughts unapproved by corporate media or not wanting children to be molested, then can "fascism" probably be all that bad?

mean have you tried bringing up any books around your local lgbtsjwtfnpc marxist cattle? In no time you will see their beady stupid cowlike eyes light up in panic. Soon enough they will start with the usual subhuman bleating "wasnt he sexist? Arent you being dangerously eurocentric? Hasnt it been debunked as fake news russian bot pseudoscience?Why read books by dead white men when you could have been streaming the latest diverse and inclusive workplace comedies at netflix hulu and disneyplus? your daily mandatory dose of ''ethically sourced'' child pornography? Didnt you know reading antything beyond YA literature is ableist towards people who are too retarded to read? How does this further the short term electoral goals of the democratic party? Are you saying child sex workers arent real sex workers?Have you been taking your daily recomended dose of high fructuouse corn syrup your SSRIs and HRT? it is very important that you take the medication dr goldstein prescribed otherwise we will report you to corporate for mandatory sensitivity training as per the domestic terrorism act of 2021"

>>19768983
>you're a menshevik
I'm saying this is what Trotsky was so he was predisposed towards thinking the revolution could only ever be betrayed and he was literally right there the moment it was betrayed in his own opinion. IDK WTF he was thinking he was doing.
>took mankind into fucking outerspace
technically the first country to put something into outerspace was the Nazis. You win on a technicallity here in that the Soviets were to first to put a human into space, but the Americans were the first to land a human on another body rather than have a human drifting aimlessly somewhere that is vaguely above the planet. Space was really a team effort on this one guys. None of us could have done it without the others. Fascist, Communism, Capitalist, doesn't matter, uniting in brotherhood.

>>19769026
I just want you to know that you're doing exactly what the corporate media and rest of the finance billionaires whom you apparently oppose want you to do by reproducing the homegrown lines of division that divide the working class and prevent us from uniting against our real enemy. I don't blame you for it since it's not your fault but it's something you should be aware of. A leaked internal memo among Amazon execs showed that they were acutely aware of the fact that racially heterogeneous workplaces were less likely to unionize and believe me when I say the ruling class has always been aware of the utility of whipping up racism the sweep the legs of a unifying working class.

>>19768874
the state that you loathe so much is the one thing keeping us from nailing your vile dyke ass to a lamp post, you disgusting slut tranny, shit your panties again

>>19768991
It's also funny how this manifests today. Recently, conservatives picked up on Blumenthal (the senator from Connecticut) showing up at a Communist Party event. And he was like "I support capitalism but I support unions" and then this Stalinist Stacy shilled the Communist Party for a second:

https://youtu.be/YxtqjQIQEzI

And this is bizarro and makes boomer conservatives think the Democrats are communists, which is simply not true. And then there are very left-wing people who don't like this either, but the basic template here hasn't really changed since Stalin, Dimitrov, Togliatti, etc.

But I think Trotskyism was also appealing in the West because of the viewpoint that socialism had to spread to the most industrialized countries for it to survive, and there is backing in classical Marxism for this, so if you're a young radical, you could think the revolution is nigh while living in the United States being the most developed capitalist country. But that hasn't happened. So why is that? And that's one of the big debates. But I think Trotskyism has largely disintegrated and the people who would've been Trots in the past gravitate toward "Maoism" now and cheer on some dudes in the jungle on the other side of the world who have been fighting for 40 years.

I'd also add that Trotskyism was a complete dud in the third world, because it's Eurocentric, really. If your revolution requires that the most advanced countries have a revolution too, then I think there's a lack of a theoretical basis for revolution in poor countries, ultimately. "No, we'll do things on our own, thank you."

>>19769052
there is no such thing as the white working class, read sakkai, its a labour aristokkkracy predisposed to fascism by its own material interests.

Marginalized folks have every reason to trust progressive bourgeoisie and managerial strata over fascist white settlers who want them dead.we have every right to deplatform fascists and reactionaries and class reductionists and science deniers and ensure safety for marginalized and vulnerable members of our communities. We have every right to demand the destigmatization and normalization of sex work, mental health, fat positivity, drug use, decolonization prison abolition police abolition family abolition the sexual enmancipation of children and an end to white supremacy and the gender binary.

Instead of pandering to the most backward secrors of the working class we should lead the way along with the most advanced ones, black and indigenous people, and queer/ trans sex workers. Sex workers not the straight male labour aristokkkracy who are at the vanguard of the proletarian movement, women and queer people taking the means of production into their own hands by refusing to perform unpaid sexual and emotional labor for white men. The real class struggle is not in factories but in womens bodies. Sexwork is a threat to patriarchy the capitalist system itself it is radically queer because it goes against the idea that sex is for the reproduction of the nuclear family and the patriarchal ideology of romantic love. Its a means for workers to take the means of production into their own hands here and now to abolish the distinction between the private sphere and the public, between work and pleasure and self expression. To break down the walls of lily white christian suburbia into a brave new world of pleasure rebellion and freedom. Yes it is true what they say about us queer postmodern neomarxists We are gonna groom all your daughters to be whores and your sons to be nympho trans sex workers.

>>19769074
bla bla bla blaaaa, shut the fuck up you vile jew

>>19769074
pasta

>>19767994
>>Fascism = Marxist economic thought + Nationalism
so fascist italy wasn't fascist then?

>>19768608
There's no such thing as a "non-Authoratarian" or "non-statist" revolution butters, you're a functional reformist.

>>19769023
>Can you elaborate on how this is relevant? I don't think the SRs were revolutionary at all, especially not the right-wing Kerenskyist faction, so I don't see how Kerensky being in power provides some kind of exception.
The Bolsheviks making a truce with Kerensky rather than deliberately undermining him at every turn while some sort of counter-revolution thing was going on is literally just some vague "left-unity" position in the face of a right-wing threat. It isn't the basis of a sound ideological predispotion so I don't know what point you were even trying to get across in the first place. You literally offer nothing except "left-unity" as a position in of itself and are using examples of the Bolsheviks participating in left-unity as some sort of support of the position of "left-unity" by itself. The Boshelviks did not make their raison d'etre countering counter-revolution just because they agreed that a counter-revolution should be stopped.

>I'm saying that when an actual fascist movement poses an existential threat to forms of working class struggle an organization in pre- or proto-revolutionary moment, the revolutionary party should lead resistance against.
Your example was not the boshelviks leading a resistance against anything. It was them temporarily falling in line with Kerensky. You are also only saying this because literally Trotsky happened to be the Boshelvik who fell in line for this grand left-unity project.

Even Trotsky's defense of being a Menshevik before eventually deciding to be a Bolshevik is that he was trying to repair the split between the factions. The guy is a one trick pony where that trick is left-unity.

>>19769035
this does seem to be a flavor of biographical argument that I criticized above as its legitimacy seems to hinge on Trotsky's one year membership of Mensheviks which ended 13 years prior to 1917. I will say it is kind of bizarre that you're saying that the main theorist of permanent revolution was a stage-ist considering those two are considered opposites of each other. And in fact if you actually read what Trotsky wrote you'll find a very different Trotsky than the one in your imagination. From chapter 7 of Results and Prospects:
>If we take the history of Germany or of England in the period when the proletariat of these countries formed the same proportion of the nation as the proletariat now forms in Russia, we shall see that they not only did not play, but by their objective importance could not play, such a role as the Russian proletariat plays today.
This is clearly not a pessimistic statement. In that chapter titled The Prerequisites of Socialism, which is admittedly a bit prescriptive, you will find no hint of pessimism regarding the possibility of socialism or revolution in Russia.

>>19769052
its the 1% of lgbt cultural marxist fanatics being weaponized by the 1% of corporate elites against the 98% of normal, decent hardworking people.

>>19769054
>The existence of cops keeps me from going ballistic and shooting everyone I think is a dyke
I’d shoot you too. And what I advocate is another sort of security layer in its place. A friendly community sort of security.

>>19769098
>functional
Yes, exactly. There’s no such thing as a political revolution, they’re all just coups. Only a social revolution is a Revolution.

>>19769132
No you dont get it, and you dont own a gun you tranny freak. You dont get it though, its the state that enforces your vile homosexual niggotry, you will be dragged from you home soon.

>>19769132
This disgusting cunt thinks she could defend her self, someone is going to knock you over the head one of these days, you are being watched.

>>19769101
>Your example was not the boshelviks leading a resistance against anything. It was them temporarily falling in line with Kerensky.
Are you implying that it was the provisional government which defeated Kornilov and not the Petrograd Soviet? Because if you are, that's kinda cringe.
>literally just some vague "left-unity" position in the face of a right-wing threat
It's not left-unity because the provisional government, which at that time had become the "executive committee of the ruling class" were not left. No one in Bolshevik leadership would've described the provisional government as left after Lenin won the April Theses debate.
The orientation to Kornilov has nothing to do with the orientation to Kerensky, but your autistic obsession with left unity prevents you from interpreting any temporary reconfiguration of the class struggle as being anything other than left unity.
>You literally offer nothing except "left-unity" as a position in of itself
Again, I'm speaking of the concrete needs of the working class in making a revolution. It's very simple. You either defend the (february) revolution or you let it be killed. If Kornilov had liquidated the soviets there's no way a revolution would've happened in October.

>>19769108
wtf does permanent revolution even mean. I'm not reading your stupid shit until a Trotskyist can actually explain what would even be in the thing I would be reading.

>>19769166
You are engaging in semantics where you decide the since Kerensky isn't left that it isn't left-unity, but the term left-unity in reality just means anti-right as "left-unity" is not an actual position you can hold. You are using the fact that the boshelviks did not just stand idly by as someone came to destroy them as some sort of philosophical-political treatise. Self-preservation requires no philosophical backing.

>>19769171
>wtf does permanent revolution even mean
In many countries outside of the imperial core capitalism developed in a stunted, inorganic way. The first bourgeois revolutions were led by the urban petty bourgeoisie. Many countries outside of the core did not witness the development of an urban bourgeoisie and so were deprived of their natural leaders in the democratic revolution. Moreover, the big bourgeoisie in said countries develop material connections either to the landed elites of their own country or international capital which makes that class reluctant to have any part in a democratic revolution. In such circumstances there is only one class remaining which can bring about the democratic revolution and that is the working class.

In Russia, capitalism developed now as an outgrowth of urban crafts but rather in response to the military threat posed by western europe. Capitalism developed out of a need to compete with industrial warfare. The crafts phase of capitalism was leapfrogged directly into some aspects of industrial capitalism in weapons factories. Urban areas developed not as locations where surplus was accumulating but rather as administrative/military posts. The nascent capitalist class's only client was the monarchy, so they had no incentive to overthrow them. Thus the only way the tsar would be overthrown would be in a revolution led by the working class which is exactly what happened in february 1917.

You will likely receive some replies with some nonsense about permanent revolution meaning skipping the capitalist development stage. If so, the person replying to you should be ignored as this will mean they haven't read Trotskys work on permanent rev because he literally debunks that notion and clarifies his position regarding that in two separate chapters.

>>19769204
semantics? Dude you're the who's trying to paint fundamental steps in revolution-making as being mere "left unity"
> You are using the fact that the boshelviks did not just stand idly by as someone came to destroy them as some sort of philosophical-political treatise.
My position this entire time has clearly been that the fight against counter-revolution is tactical, not ideological.

>>19768608
there is no freedom in endless internal conflict, it is the worst most pathetic type of decay imaginable.

>>19768608
>They’re all too similar for me though.
Ok so this is just a subjective intuition that these governments are the same. You’re not applying materialist critique here at all. Your basing your politics off emotion which just leads to a regurgitation of your relative taste. Marxism seeks to overcome this kind of thinking.

>>19768697
>Making a one world nationstate of bureaucracy isn’t the way to this.
It’s working far better than whatever tf anarchists have done. I only ever see anarchists destroy class consciousness.

>>19768732
Yea

>>19769241
You were literally just describing Russia. Not of the information you provided is new. Trotsky was describing Russia because he was in Russia. While that means he is probably accurately describing Russia and that itself has value, it doesn't say anything about what you are supposed to actually be doing. You still haven't actually told me what Permanent Revolution means. That the working class somehow remains in charge throughout the entire capitalist phase? In what way is that different than the Dictatorship of the proletariot? In what way is it different than Socialism in one country except for the fact that you place a greater emphasis on having a revolution in the capitalist parts of the world, which socialism in one country never said it wouldn't be doing? Is your issue with socialism in one country merely the fact that it has to do the capitalist phase while being under the name socialist? Is permanent revolution just "capitalism, but revolutionary!" where you don't call it socialism? What the fuck does permanent revolution mean? The only thing I'm getting is "don't give up power" such that you are always somehow in a state of revolution. Like you said we aren't skipping the capitalist stage of development so I have to assume that the permanent revolution is occurring throughout the entirety of capitalism.

>>19769257
then you are not saying anything, which is the feeling I get from anything from trotsky

>>19769280
>There is no freedom in freedom.
Sometimes freedom is chaos, sometimes it is anarchy.

>>19769290
>that these governments are the same
Similar. It’s not emotion, it’s generalization, and outcome manifest.

>>19769304
You see poorly educated youth groups. Controlled opposition get their faces filmed, the actual opposition are obscured.

>>19768805
Do you oppose socialism in one country in favor of world revolution?

>>19769342
there is no chaos or anarchy in democracy, there is no excitement, You are being deceived by the candy man

>>19769394
There’s a room four thousand people thick. The stacks committee on stage arrange the order of business; announcement, order of business, proposals, debates, preliminary votes, second round of debates, closing preparations.
Can you imagine this not being absolutely nerve wracking for beginners? And I believe in it.

>>19769416
bla bla bla

shit your pants again, tranny.

>>19768805
This post glows
>Socialist Alternative
Yep, there it is.

>>19768156
When have the bourgeoisie experience decay since they're inception¿

>>19769432
What’s wrong with them? Not confusing them with DSA are you?

>>19769436
The unironic fascy kids of the US are from formerly wealthy lower middle class families.

i'm enjoying watching the leftists debate their schism, so far i think the trotskyist is winning

i sure hope butterfly doesn't show up and cause the thread to hit bump limit in 15 minutes with low signal high noise posts and replying to every single fucking person in the thread........

>>19769323
>You were literally just describing Russia.
Character limits prevent me from articulating how the theory of permanent revolution applies to every single country ever. In Ireland's case the capitalist class was unable to lead the movement for independence because the linen capitalists in the north had material connection to English textile manufacturers. Now go look at a timeline of strikes in Ireland and you'll see a huge concentration build-up in the years just prior to 1922--the year of independence--indicating the primary agent in the movement for independence was the Irish working class. Independence won through the self-conscious activity of the working class, not through some bogus popular front.
>You still haven't actually told me what Permanent Revolution means.
Actually I did in the post you're responding to. I wouldn't focus too much on the name "permanent revolution" which is a bit of misnomer. It's the theory that in backwards countries the domestic capitalist class is deprived of its traditional role of having political agency/independence and is compromised in its capacity to lead a the democratic revolution or an independence movement.
>That the working class somehow remains in charge throughout the entire capitalist phase?
No. That the domestic ruling class remains in some kind of uncomfortable asymmetric alliance with either the remnants of feudalism or with international capital. Take for example small rural capitalists in India and their connection to Monsanto.
>In what way is it different than Socialism in one country
not sure why you're counterposing socialism in one country to permanent rev. Socialism in one country was a right-wing justification for privileging the interests of the Soviet bureaucracy over those of the international working class.
>Is your issue with socialism in one country merely the fact that it has to do the capitalist phase while being under the name socialist?
What on earth? My issue with socialism in one country is that it was repeatedly used to undermine the working class in other countries. The Stalinist CP in the US coalititioned with Roosevelt to suppress strikes in the leadup to ww2. The Stalinist CP in France denounced the youthful elements of the May 68, repeatedly tried to isolate workers from students, and betrayed the working class by coming to an agreement with the Gaulist government in a moment where they should've been seeking to overthrow it.
>I have to assume that the permanent revolution is occurring throughout the entirety of capitalism.
I think that part of the confusion here is due to the unfortunate wording "permanent revolution". Trotsky chose that title because Marx used the phrase one time and trotsky was too much of a narcissist to resist rhetorical flourishes that would confuse his audience.

>>19768608
Liberal idealism.

>>19769491
>Being against liberalism is liberalism
Low effort

>>19769339
Dude you literally started it.
>Opposition Fascism is not the point of Communism
Then you say
>Self-preservation requires no philosophical backing.
The only way you can maintain both positions is if you fail to understand that the whole point of fascism is to snuff out communism and working class organization. Your original post made me think that you didn't understand that, so of course I proceeded to make the case that the liquidation of fascism is a necessary task of the working class in a revolutionary moment.

>>19769416
We have something like that in the US actually
It's shit. All those thousands of people believe they are equally qualified and entitled to the same thing. This is how ceaser was born

>>19769512
>Lies, leaps of logic, ahistorical declaration.
You break your leg stumbling over all that?

>>19769442
They're the Anglo world's glow op. I'm from Australia and not fully across what the DSA is like but SA's strategy is to be dogmatic trots who screech and ree about AES states being fascist and whatnot, then take the liberal establishment line on issues and events within their own country. They always have the most dogshit takes imaginable on every possible issue and then hold the most retarded "protests" imaginable. They make socialists look like retards and channel revolutionary energy into this sand trap of retardation. Yes, you would fit right in.

So you guys know regardless of who wins the anarchists are getting thrown into gulags/camps right?

>>19769538
you're coping

>>19769540
>and channel revolutionary energy into this sand trap of retardation.
They all seem to do this. I’m sick of it. Over in the States they spawned a decent reformist in Kshama Sawant, but they don’t control her and fail as hard as the SEP another neo-Trot group. DSA are just like the Green party here, toothless and hopeless

>>19769540
Socialist Alternative in Australia is part of the IMT. Socialist Alternative in the US, which is who I was referring to, is part of the the ISA. You're talking about a different Socialist Alternative. But anyways, as I said in my original post which started all of this, I don't feel the need to be the lawyer for every single trotskyist org ever.

>>19769496
Using liberal idealism to combat liberalism is liberalism, yes.

>>19769473
same. Butterfly is always shit at arguing. She only ever gives one sentence indirect responses.

>>19769475
>That the domestic ruling class remains in some kind of uncomfortable asymmetric alliance with either the remnants of feudalism or with international capital. Take for example small rural capitalists in India and their connection to Monsanto.
You aren't understanding my point. What does Permanent revolution mean? You are describing the particular conditions of Ireland and how quite shockingly when you are part of a large economic block capitalism has a tendency to connect disparate locals within that block. Next you are going to be saying it is impossible for the capitalist class to leave the EU, oh wait that actually did end up happening. I guess from what you have said Permanent Revolution is only something that confirms the working class credentials of the brexiteers and nothing more as you have yet to explain what it means as instead you are just endlessly repeating the situations you think require Permanent Revolution.
>Socialism in one country was a right-wing justification for privileging the interests of the Soviet bureaucracy over those of the international working class.
again WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE DOING INSTEAD?
>The Stalinist CP in the US coalititioned with Roosevelt to suppress strikes in the leadup to ww2
Weren't you previously complaining about them not doing enough to combat fascism?
>The Stalinist CP in France denounced the youthful elements of the May 68
good, fuck those students
this is literally just left unity crap again. Next thing you know you are going to be chanting "Workers AND the World unite!" instead of "of"

We don't revolution for the sake of revolution. We want a worker's revolution because we actually have a concrete goal unlike some vague Trotskyist "left-wingism". The purpose of the workers is not to support YOUR revolution, your purpose is to support the worker's revolution.

>>19769547
>Reactionary Proud Boy wants to taz the trannies in their cages for big brother state
And the statists would likely make this bargain.
Or will you ever get it right?

>>19769504
We are opposed to fascism insofar as fascism is a response to communism. However communism is NOT to be a response to fascism.

>>19769592
>he thinks I won't have fucked off to Alaska by then
Lmao

>>19769577
I’m not an advocate of China or socdem Europe. You keep failing to make your accusation stick. Leave.

>>19769569
>Kshama Sawant, but they don’t control her
Oh buddy you couldn't be more wrong. Leaked documents show that literally every decision made by that council office is made by leadership bodies. Sawant is of course on those leadership bodies, but ultimately she's just a conduit for channeling decisions made by national leadership

It gets brought up in every other argument against anarchism but the camps in anarchist Catalonia really do just refute their entire ideology.

>>19764406
I'm just going to leave this here

>>19769596
>However communism is NOT to be a response to fascism.
I completely agree. The reverse is true

Vaush: "Like a fed op? You could say that about literally anything. There are informants everywhere. I’m an informant. Why do you think I did antifa work back in Santa Monica, you know? Yeah, I was ratting out names, absolutely. We’ve all been informants."
>inb4 the "he was just joking" cope

>>19769601
>Leaked documents
Link? I don’t vote for her, but I haven’t looked too deeply. She’s just alright in my book. Most leftwing politician in the whole country.

>>19769581
whenever you make a good point against her the bitch gives these muddled one word answers that are impossible to reply back to with any substance. She's so annoying it's unbelievable

>>19769600
This is just you not understanding what liberal idealism is and what makes your position that way. Why is it that you seem to have a very rudimentary grasp of every single topic I see you post about? Even when you get things "right", it's obviously derived from the most perspective possible.

>>19769606
This means I'm not "liquidating" fascism for you if I don't feel like it. I'm not going to die in your stupid neocon wars.

>>19769637
>the most perspective possible.
the most shallow* perspective possible.

>>19769637
>Liberalism is trying to establish a stateless commune with a shared economy and only justifiable hierarchies.
No, that’s not what liberalism is. You can stop now. Nobody wants to talk about ancaps and free markets and unicorns

>>19769653
Look at her go, missing the point and not understanding things again. That's our butters. We wouldn't want her any other way though, would we folks?

>>19769585
>What does Permanent revolution mean?
I'm not really sure what you want from me. I've articulated it in the abstract. I've given 2 examples.
>You are describing the particular conditions of Ireland and how quite shockingly when you are part of a large economic block capitalism has a tendency to connect disparate locals within that block
Yes, I'm glad it's intuitive to you. The consequence of this is that nations like Ireland or Russia (I can elaborate on a contemporary example in Israel/Palestine) whatever exists of the capitalist class is incapable of fulfilling the role that the French and English capitalists fulfilled.
>WHAT THE FUCK WERE THEY SUPPOSED TO BE DOING INSTEAD?
Calm down Zoomer. I gave two examples of things they shouldn't have been doing. Another would be to not dissolve the 3rd International. Another would be to not sell oil to Hitler in a time where Germany had no oil due to a British blockade. Another would be to not abandon China in the sino-soviet split so as to appease the west. In general the critique of socialism in one country does not amount to abandoning the soviet union. It amounts to NOT abandoning revolutionaries elsewhere, which is exactly what happened.
>Weren't you previously complaining about them not doing enough to combat fascism?
In Germany. The communists should have coalitioned with the trade unions. This is not the same thing as coalitioning with literally the ruling class.
>good, fuck those students
students are the light cavalry of the revolution. They have an important role to play and indeed in May 68 were the impetus for the protests and strikes. also, what exactly do you think students become after they graduate?
>this is literally just left unity crap again
Wrong again. Left unity refers to unity of the subjective component i.e. unity of political parties. The CPs tactic was to isolate their followers from the broader class so that they wouldn't be exposed to the revolutionary energy of the moment. You seem to think that anything involving more than one group of people is left unity e.g. "i noticed you doing some left unity last night when you sucked that guys dick". I'm not really sure where this pretension comes from but it's something you should talk about with your autism specialist. For now we can leave this point by noting that a persistent theme throughout the ruling class's assaults on the working class has been a strategy of divide and conquer.
I notice also that you cannot respond to my point on the betrayal in the bargaining room, likely because this is the first you've ever heard of any of this.

>>19764599
Or rather Christianity is pseudo-communism that reached its highest form in marxism.

Anyways that's it for me in this thread. Might come back later to defend bolshevik-leninism from the right-deviationists.

>>19767915
It's a classic white supremacist canard, believing those dumb browns and "orientals" are simply too dumb and uneducated to not realize that they are supposedly victims of despotism.

>>19767849
wanting to be ruled by dimwits

>>19769061
Good post

>>19769701
Ah of course Schrodinger's minority, both hated by the right for being dumb yet loved by the right for being the model minority

>>19769132
>Only a social revolution is a Revolution.
& how do you plan on doing that?

>>19768211
>This, I've seen people link Gramci's thought to that of Gentile (Main Philosopher of Fascism)
Might have something to do with the genesis of Gramscian thought being a critique of Italian communism and what exactly went wrong in its anti-fascist efforts.

>>19769701
No white supremacist whines about China retard. Only boomers do. In fact a lot of 'white supremacists'(loosely defined) think China is based.

>>19764406
lately I saw twitter leftists denying the food shortages and inflation, and mocking working class families who can't afford food.
some people were cheering on war with Russia.
it all surrounds people like Vaush and Hasan, so the subversion was successful. the American left is currently dead

>>19769749
I am talking about white supremacist so-called leftists.

>>19769661
>I've given 2 examples.
You've given me two examples of the conditions which would supposedly require Permanent Revolution, but not one example of what that Permanent Revolution would entail.
>Another would be to not abandon China in the sino-soviet split so as to appease the west
dafuq? the soviet union abandoned china to appease the west? China was the one that became capitalist to appease the west.
>what exactly do you think students become after they graduate
management
>I notice also that you cannot respond to my point on the betrayal in the bargaining room, likely because this is the first you've ever heard of any of this.
no I'm simply in favour of anyone or anything that is against 68ers. fuck boomers

>>19769653
You will be dragged from you home, you are being watched, the police protect you and advocate for your dyke lifestyle, but not for long, you are being watched, you will be hung.

>>19769757
That makes sense. Term is imo misleading though as I instantly imagine some skinhead and not a white savior type who thinks Chinese people need to be liberated from tyranny.

>>19769702
No no. Ruled by no one.

>>19769744
We organize. We’ve been divided by enemies with thick layers of propaganda for a reason. We’re perfectly capable of organizing, we’ve just been psyopsed to death.

>>19769800
Both adhere to racist ideology and are complicit in imperialism, I see no practical reason to distinguish.

>>19764558
>20th century
Thesis: RWDS. Free market capitalism. Throw journalists out of helicopters.
Antithesis: USSR. State communism. Put bankers in gulags.
>21st century
Synthesis: Nazbol gang. Guild socialism. Dump libs, bankers, and journos on dystopian prison island.

>>19769801
You cannot escape, you shit your panties, you filthy disgusting cunt.

>>19769342
>Sometimes freedom is chaos, sometimes it is anarchy.
You only conceive of negative freedom, “freedom from” the state. Rather the state provides freedom by ordering the chaos of nature. It can provide freedom of property, education, etc. These are positive freedoms.

Chaos is bondage to nature. It is naive to think the caveman free. He is at the whim of nature. Read Kant on freedom. Kant’s conception of freedom passed through Hegel to Marx. I really can’t stand anarchists. How do you expect revolution when what you say to the downtrodden is “Sometimes freedom is chaos.” Why the Hell would they join you? They would think you’re mad. They don’t want chaos, they want a stable job & a home.
>the actual opposition are obscured.
I suppose you’re referring to yourself here lol.

>>19769801
You shit your panties,

>>19769801
Except for everyone else?

>>19769436
Sure, they face more opposition as time wears on & class consciousness grows. Crisis points are reached and the bourgeoisie reacts & gradually loses ground. Then things are stable again until another crisis.

>>19769342
>>19769831
>muh negative freedom
>muh positive freedom
Neither one exists unless it is enforced. The more rights you want, the bigger the state has to get.

*brap* Until Western Leftoids genuinely arm themselves and what not this shit will always be a fucking LARP, and even then look at rightoids with their guns.

>>19769473
>i'm enjoying watching the leftists debate their schism, so far i think the trotskyist is winning
Exactly lol right wingers prefer Trotsky over Stalin cuz Trotsky is more in line with their beliefs.

>>19769831
>Rather the state provides freedom by ordering the chaos of nature
We can do that ourselves. There are some institutions worth maintaining, just not elevating to overseers of all.
>chaos is bondage to nature
No, anarchy is nature. Chaos is the bondage of state, a notorious war machine.
Anarchism is a political ideal where the community come together to arrange life.

For those who dont know its been outed that Breadtubers are paid shills. Leaked documents from the Royal Institute showed they had recruited Abigail Thorn founder of Philosophytube via agency Valents to push govt information and engage in psyops. Not hard to imagine others have been recruited for similar purposes.

>>19769861
K cool I have no problem with a big state

>>19765001
China is fascist. Its nationalist and socialist. That makes it fascist.

>>19769963
lol

>>19768848
You just don’t get it, do you? Or maybe you don’t want to get it. I’m not saying the Chinese see themselves as fascist: I am saying that is what they are. If they arrived there via a communist revolution, well, that get goes to show that fascism seems to win no matter how you proceed. Again: fascism takes the form it needs to in any given place and time. It is very much possible for a democratic, capitalist country to become fascist, and it is very much possible that a Marxist-Leninist state becomes fascist. And in both cases, it is possible and even likely that these governments will consider themselves anti-fascist. Doesn’t change the fact that they are fascist.

So this is the state of leftism? Being activist clientele for capitalism or putting energy into YouTube videos and podcasts instead of organizing?

>>19769990
>listen, they’re just fascist cuz they are all right! I mean just look at them isn’t it obvious they’re fascist?! Now normally all mainstream media is bs but this is the one thing we both agree on.
You’ve provided no examples of ways in which China is fascist. How does Chinese government resemble 20th century fascism? What Chinese political philosophy draws from fascism?

Marxists since 1918 have only vindicated fascism's repression of it.
>>19769831
>Rather the state provides freedom by ordering the chaos of nature. It can provide freedom of property, education, etc. These are positive freedoms.
The state can not provide freedom because freedom is only a function of one's capabilities. The state can not always protect you, and the state can not teach you everything or even teach it to you adequately. States can also take away those freedoms as socialist states have shown. Freedom is your willingness, your courage to assert your beliefs and rights. That does not come from a piece of paper; that comes from you.
>I really can’t stand anarchists. How do you expect revolution
Why would anarchists support "revolution?" Revolution is simply the replacement of a despotic government with another. An anarchist would be a person who creates conditions where they can no longer be arranged by bureaucrats.The peoples' freedom is not my freedom, and not everyone has ability to be free.

My freedom, and the freedom of an anarchist does not require me to free you from your limits - that's the assumption of revolution and why its wrong. I have no obligation to care about you or what happens to you. You set yourself free. . The whole romanticization of revolution is just wrong to begin with. because it idolizes a specific set of freedoms for specific people - the ones involved. Freedom does come from revolution. Revolution is the clarion call for a new set of rules and duties to chain the individual to new dogmas and earthly problems. Tbe anarchist is the person who lets nature takes its course and let people regulate themselves. They're not people whoa are interesting your futile attempts of social engineering people to be in your image.

>>19770045
Because its socialist and nationalist. Its really that simple. Fascism is just socialism + nationalism.

I’m only entering this thread to inform you all that the Age of Enlightenment was a monumental mistake. A fuckup that only births worse, more atrocious fuckups. The damage is irreversible.

>>19769831
>Chaos is bondage to nature. It is naive to think the caveman free.
Freedom is being responsible for your own life. The caveman is free because he accepts the fact he is the self creator of his own life. You, like many socialists, make the silly assumption freedom is/or ought to be universal. It is not, it does need to be, and it never will be. Man fights himself out of the womb; and man must fight until they die.

>>19770066
You’re not just an individual, what you are is the result of a dynamic process between yourself and the community in which you live. You wouldn’t even have self-consciousness had you not been raised in a community. In conceiving of yourself as a mere individual you misunderstand the status of man, which leads you to the naive belief of anarchism. Any hopes for anarchism you have will fail since you make this fundamental mistake.

>>19770081
Lmao, the retardation

>>19770106
Sad!

>>19770107
Then males must be eliminated. Because as >>19770106 they only birth atrocities

>>19770115
Yeah, socialism and fascism are both retarded belief systems. I suggest you grow up and find something relevant.

>>19770107
>The caveman is free because he accepts the fact he is the self creator of his own life.
False. The caveman doesn’t have a thought process much beyond “get food, get shelter, me tired.” Philosophy doesn’t even come into existence until thousands of years into human civilization. There is no freedom before then. It literally isn’t a concept that exists in the human imagination at that point.

>>19770161
And he’s free to get it. Wtf?

>>19770158
Oh don’t worry, I’m a communist

>>19770170
Xi, Bakunin or undecided?

>>19770167
He’s not free to get it, he’s bound to his animalistic drive for food to get it. He makes no free decision to go out & find food.

>>19770177
Xi of course

>>19770161
>The caveman doesn’t have a thought process much beyond “get food, get shelter, me tired.”
And you're not even being consistent because you just argued the state makes people free by providing these things. Freedom does require much thought and all.
>Philosophy doesn’t even come into existence
The idea that people were not free until "philosophy" was discovered is laughable. If anything, philosophy has one of the greatest tools to enslave people to essentially a dogmatic theology. All philosophy is nothing more than rhetoric - a skill to persuade. Its a tool anyone can use to manipulate others into being sucked into your vast, earthly schemes. You'll never be free unless you do away with the sacredness of philosophy and thought to see it for the sophistry its always been.

>>19770182
>The tyranny of the belly!
AAAAA HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHA

>>19770177
>>19770167
>>19770135
>>19770210
this cunt shat her fucking panties, post the pic. >>19770185
>>19770208
>>19770167

>>19770185
Based fascist

>>19770170
>Oh don’t worry, I’m a communist
Communists since 1918 have only vindicated fascism. I'm glad you're adding to that realization by existing.

>19770223
I am not into that. YOU are into it. Only YOU repost this fraud. Only YOU claim it’s real.

>>19770185
Communists just prove conservatives right when they defend China and Xi. You're not revolutionaries. You're just people envious you can't be part of the elites or the establishment. Communism is the revolt of profligates and the sterile. Only the lowest of the low are attracted to its lies.

>>19770170
>Oh don’t worry, I’m a communist

>>19770234
What happened in 1918

>>19770259
One the largest counter-revolutions of history that only partially ended in 1989

>>19764547
what's your definition?

>>19770241
Im claiming its real and im not him, looks like the jannies really love you huh, got them deleting your shit pics, huh dikey? Just like the police, you fucking bourgeoise cunt.

>>19770108
>You’re not just an individual, what you are is the result of a dynamic process between yourself and the community in which you live.
You are only individual, and you are only the result of nature and god. You owe nothing to your community. Socialism attracts people like because you don't have the capability to be anything but cannon fodder. Communism is what's left for people who have no business being alive or being around since they couldn't find anything else to live for but mediocrity. Its one of the lowest goals in life to strive for - to make the state into one big poor house for paupers and ragamuffins. Its a literal race to the bottom for who can be the worst.
>Any hopes for anarchism you have will fail since you make this fundamental mistake.
The fundamental mistake you, and you keep making, is that I must or anyone else, live to serve "isms" or strive for ideals. Failure is a goal you set up for yourself. I avoid failure because I avoid ideals, and "anarchism" is no ideal. You, and communists like you, have always failed because you idealize a human being and a world that will never exist and a world that you will never to see. I make do with what I have, and I don't seek the vanities of life. I know what I want from life, and I cherish it, no words from a communist will change my mind. And that's all that matters to me.

Could the “revelation”, aka the proof about what was obvious: your lefty idols being stooges and agents, finally give you the wake up call that you need to see that the neoliberal world order does not, and never will fear leftism? Because it will never be popular again, your people are compromised and many of its ideas like internationalism are actually assimilated to work in favour of globalism etc.
Can you finally connect the dots about fascism, about both east and west shitting bricks over nataoc, about shills feeling the need to rally against obscure esoteric literature like Evola?
Do you get it yet? Still not realised that you have facilitated the problem?

Everyone serves imperialism now, it’s impossible to even conceive of an activity that doesn’t serve empire. Capitalism won, its over.

>>19770108
Godless people always defend the community against the individual. How else you do manipulate others into serving systems, forcing them to be dependent on groups and not themselves?. You turn man into a god, and you threaten others not challenge your fictitious authority over them. Its ridiculous clowns like you who think people must listen to you or be afraid of you. Life shows countless people are willing to risk their lives to challenge communist despotism. Commies are much smaller and less threatening than they appear. People are not going to let you command their lives. They will put a stop to you, and people like you, if you try. That's why you're on 4chan and not outside.

>>19770399
Lol, this is really bad argument. Caleb's book is just a classic example of leftists cannibalizing each other for political power. Caleb talks because this society does not give him the power to shoot.

>thread descends so far into shitflinging it would make /pol/ blush
Never change commies, never change

>>19765799
>I feel like their rebellions don't cause any dent towards the System.
Other than pic related?

>>19764608
Donetsk would like a word

When I tried going to a socialist meeting in my city someone started complaining about furry porn being censored on the uni network. Maupin is right.

>>19770907
If you know about it. They know about it. And they have the resources and 80 years to circumvent it.

>>19769785
>but not one example of what that Permanent Revolution would entail.
Again, you're getting hung up on the terminology "permanent revolution". All of your confusion would be resolved if you replaced "permanent revolution" with "the theory in which the working class has to carry forward the historic mission of the bourgeoisie by fulfilling the democratic revolution".
>the soviet union abandoned china to appease the west?
You really shouldn't have such strong ideological convictions if you're so unfamiliar with the history of socialism/the labor movement, ignorance of which you've betrayed throughout this thread. In the case of the sino-soviet split, Mao wanted to aggressively confront the west in the export of socialism, whereas the Khruschev-ian line was one of appeasement. One of the central themes of the secret speech was a desire to establish coexistence. The breakdown in diplomatic relations--in which the USSR withdrew all engineers and advisors from China--created probably the biggest ideological and organizational crisis in the history of Stalinism besides the collapse of the USSR.
>management
lmao
>no I'm simply in favour of anyone or anything that is against 68ers. fuck boomers
Dumb twitter meme from a zoomer brit which I would assume was bait were it not for the fact that we've been going on for a dozen replies.

>>19770950
>circumvent it
Very difficult to do given that secular apolitical people have very low birth rates, while religious extremists breed like rabbits. This is also true among immigrants after the first generation, so you can't get around it by just opening the borders. Even if you educate the children out of their parents beliefs, the ones who accept the educational program go on to have low birth rates themselves. Unless you have a literal forced breeding program, the trad types will dominate.

>>19771218
>democratic revolution
The democratic revolution already ended around the turn of the millennium when competition between political parties lead to a convergence on neoliberal capitalism. Democracy is thus refuted by history, as the democratic process is shown to be a mere illusion of choice. The result is a democracy in crisis, in which politicians have to appeal to ever more fringe populist elements in order to get elected. The only way this can end is a full synthesis of left-wing and right-wing populism in the form of a National Bolshevist state built around the principle of subsidiarity.

>>19770208
If you consider philosophy an enslaver rather than liberator of the mind then by all means run out in the woods and try to cease thought. A Buddhist would agree with you that this is the true path to freedom. But the western conception of freedom is quite opposite.

19771260
You're not the person I wanted to talk to so you don't get a (You). It's my fault for leaving the thread right around the time it was climaxing and now we've hit the bump limit so that guy probably won't see my response, but I'm also the reason the thread became so fun, so I don't feel too bad.

>>19770229
*communist
>>19770250
>Communism is the revolt of profligates and the sterile. Only the lowest of the low are attracted to its lies.
Yes the meek shall inherit the earth. The last shall be first & the first shall be last.
>>19770257
Go ahead & crucify me, I’ll forgive you

>>19770907
The Mormon epidemic. Good God we're fucked.

>>19771305
For most of human history, and even today, philosophers are mocked for fools. In ancient Greece, Plato and Socrates were bullied for being idiots. Philosophy is wholly unnecessary for modern life. Intuition and evolutionary biology have succeed it in explaining the world. Philosophy is nothing more than pseudo-none sense for mediocre humanities majors.

>>19771408
I'm honestly impressed by how they've done it. They somehow manage to keep believing the least believable religion in the world and somehow it causes them to breed like rabbits.

>>19771345
>*communist
cope

>>19771218
>"the theory in which the working class has to carry forward the historic mission of the bourgeoisie by fulfilling the democratic revolution"
That is literally just what Lenin was doing anyway. Covered completely with the whole "imperialism" thing. The whole thing is pointless agreement where you agree and pointless disagreement where you don't. Completely pointless.
>Mao wanted to aggressively confront the west in the export of socialism
Then he backtracked and did the opposite like Trotsky did.
>bait
I just don't like those people, okay? They remind me of you. The smell of Trotskyism infests them too much. I would have appreciated anyone doing something to keep those people away from me.

You call student radicals the light cavalry of the revolution, but what happens if the light cavalry is the most powerful force around? You get Cossacks, that is what. I do not seek revolution for the mere purpose of The Revolution. Worker's revolution or no revolution, that is my deal. I'm not somebody who can easily switch between leftist ideologies wen the wind blows a different way like some Trotskyist. If you are right about students being the most potent revolutionary force well then we are doomed. The dictatorship of the student is not something I want to bring into this world.

>>19770364
>You, and communists like you, have always failed because you idealize a human being and a world that will never exist and a world that you will never to see.
It’s being built rn

>>19770399
yawn

>>19770415
spooky

>>19770907
i love mormons

>>19769801
you will never be ruled by no one. that's just inconceivable, unless you plan on forcing perfect equality, which not only is stupid, but is also impossible without a ruler.
I personally believe humanity is just bound to chaos and there's nothing you can do about it.