/lit/ - Literature

>>19735820
Québec is a joke itself, so it suits the novel

>>19735820
Quebec is the only place left in North America that has any sincerity, so it makes sense for DFW to focus heavily on the province

>>19735820
Am I invalid as a reader and connoisseur of literature if I don't annotate and tag my copy of IJ like that?

I consider myself one of the most erudite persons in the world, and I've never read - or will read - Infinite Jest, so I think you're fine.

>>19735820
read that one of the themes is Quebec separatism. Doubt that it's for any particular reason outside of it being an interesting socio-political phenomena

>>19735820
Its community is a foil to the consumerist culture of America (close family ties vs alienation, religion vs atheism, french vs angloid). Hal has no challenge in life, is extremely gifted and will float through the US’s cursus honorum with ease. This contrasts with the train game the Québécois play, the hardships John Wayne grew up with as a miner’s son. Thus John Wayne is extremely driven, Hal like many US kids is drifting

>>19735820
a place in North America that's an oasis from the American Influence - of course DFW would be interested. it's a fascinating phenomenon

>>19735899
>>19735901
>>19735937
I come from the South Americas. How is Quebec separate from Canadian/American culture ?
>ib4 spoon feeding
I’m doing research now but am interested in a more personal perspective how Quebec differs

>>19736021
You’re unlikely to get a nuanced take on Quebec here, or one better than reading the Wikipedia articles about Quebec’s history, Quebec separatism etc.

This thread is full of morons.

>>19735901
Give me one example of good Canadian family values in IJ? JWs father pretty much sells his son to the US, has him give up his citizenship so JW can make him more money before he dies. And JW is jusy a "grim machine" who never speaks, he is what Hal becomes, unable to do anything but play high level tennis. Marathe is fighting a "paper invasion," and gave up everything for that cause, if he wins all that happens is that a line on some paper mover and the convexity goes back to the US. On top of this he is betraying thecause he gave up his life for and neglecting his children so his literal vegetable of a wife can live a few more years on non-existance. Avril's upbringing is not better and she of Quebec is the primary cause of Hal's issues, not the American father who at least tries to help his son.
>>19736021
Its not, they are just looking for a chance to say "America bad!" If you are not an American or a Canadian you probably will see no real difference.

>>19736186
Fuck me, i am phone posting.

>>19736021
I don't have too much experience with the area, but they were completely different european settlers who came there in a completely different way. They were muscled out by anglos and have resented them ever since. If you go there, everything and I do mean EVERYTHING is french-only (its reasonably english-speaking in montreal but that doesnt count). Its not even just some cultural superiority thing, they just don't teach english there like they teach french in other provinces. When i go there i cant tell if people refuse to speak english with me because they dont want to or because they literally don't know any - i work for a company in the maritimes and we have had truckers from quebec who could not speak a single word of english, they were just as out of their element as i was whenever i visited their province. In many ways it really is like a separate country within our borders, at a level albertan separatists could only ever dream of.

How the fuck are Québécois going to preach Sovereignty and then treat their First Nations population as less than human? They’re dying on water boils, with nurses laughing as they die in hospital beds do to lack of treatment, and literally are living in the dumping grounds for the province’s trash. Wallace never addresses this. Separatism my ass, they’re no better than the Britts.

>>19736216
Because its THEIR sovereignty they care about, not first nations. western europeans were born already owning the deed to the world, they aren't particularly well-versed in a worldview that does not put them directly under God in the hierarchy of beings

>>19735820
Seperatism is not actually a part of the book, it is just something that is mentioned, all the groups who are supposedly fighting for it are actually fighting different wars which are completely a joke, separatism is just used by them as a sort of rallying cry for their pointless and explicable wars. They devote their lives to pointless causes in the same way that the ETA kids devote their lives to tennis, they let it consume them until they are nothing but the cause. Thematically speaking, they don't speak.

>>19736216
Their hollowness is stated through the novel. The AFR and other separatist movements are all a bad joke; they need the ONAN because it gives them their meaning, as rebels against a System, even if AFR just kills people and the others stage publicity stunts which really achieve nothing. As the prior poster said, they're not even really seriously fighting for separatism, only a line on a map be redrawn. IJ treats anybody who makes politics their raison d'etre as pathetic, and I'd agree, especially when one looks at our modern Culture Warriors. Shit's pathetic, they're making no meaningful change but are content to wage an impotent, meaningless war against The Other so they live without wanting to shoot up heroin everyday.

Marathe's Line to Steeply about Quebecois being more selfless, or at least recognising some Big Other than the Self and endless hedonism is undermined by the very fact that he betrayed his Nation and brothers in arms for a comatose retard he can't even speak with; his raison d'etre. He's a Human being looking out for Number 1 just like everybody else in the novel.

>>19736021
Linguistic differences are very important. A lot of the Quebec identity is predicated on the French language. There are many laws in Quebec designed to protect French from the encroachment of English. Quebec has its own media ecosystem, most of which Anglo-Canadians are completely unaware of.

Quebecois have a much stronger sense of cultural identity than Anglos, especially white Anglos. Quebec politics has its left and right axis, but almost always the question of Quebecs position and relative independence in the Confederation is more important.

>>19736259
I am terrible at organizing my thoughts when phone posting. To put it bluntly, they are all so caught up in party line that they have lost sight of what is important to them.

>>19735820
Only place is the north america that doesn't think US is the essence of how everything should be done; even Mexicans just keep thinking trough american movies.

>>19736216
That's a Canada-wide problem, mate. First Nation rights are of federal jurisdiction.

>>19736367
I’m just saying it’s especially hypocritical for Québécois Nationalists to preach nationalism and go so far as terrorism when they’re worse oppressors than the other Euro-Canucks.

>>19736186
Yeah that’s a fair point everyone from Quebec in that book is really fucked up. I don’t think it’s fair to call me a moron, though. I wish you would be kinder to me.

dont listen to anyone in this thread, theyll over explain it.
it's a canada joke about how it's just a shittier america (this was before south park did it).
the focus on quebec has to do with the french & the preconceptions surrounding them to emphasize the distaste and shitiness of american cutlure.

>>19736186
im glad you posted this.
that guy was a retard ascribing way more to it than there is.
it's simple this:
>>19736525

>>19736259
separatism is part of the book, retard.
it's part of the whole issue of addiction, which is framed as a coping mechanism against it. the idea of the mutliple factions is just the simple idea that divisions divide, it's an on-going cycle.

>>19736535
What are you saying? That this book is just some big joke? Some endless charade? An interminable jape? A ceaseless tomfoolery?

>>19736548
it is quite simply never-ending funny-stuff.

>>19736502
By this I meant that, they (Québécois) are far more oppressive (to First Nations) than the “oppressors” they are fighting (Canada).

>>19736523
You did not think before speaking, you just forced it into your world view and acted like it was correct and proof of something. I do not know what else to call someone who does that. >>19736544
You read the first part of my post and reacted. Read the rest.

>>19736703
Gosh I guess I’ve learned my lesson. Except it’s still an obvious foil whether you want to split hairs about family values or not (note Avril gets a job for her weird little brother while Hal is emotionally distant from both brothers, etc). I’ll grant the Québécois aren’t perfect in that book but I don’t think Wallace meant for it to be black-and-white

>>19736815
Oh yes, Avril got a job for the brother she was fucking and was probably father of Mario meaning she had been sleeping with him for most if not all her marriage. Such wonderful values that Avril. Just give one example from the book to back up your belief, you can't.

>>19736833
Conjecture and hair splitting. Your repulsiveness doesn’t make you wittier.

>>19736881
So my conjecture which is explicitly stated in the book, my hair splitting which is literally what is in the book, is wrong and you are right despite being unable to provide anything to support your view?

>>19736934
Avril’s brother being Mario’s father is conjecture from a unreliable narrator (Hal). Even if it’s true, you’re splitting hairs as I mentioned how she got the job for her brother as an example of the Québécois close family ties, in contrast to the Incandeza/US family which cannot communicate with each other. If it is true, ironically it shows the closeness of their family to an extreme (ew). I think you’re arguing somewhere along the lines that Avril’s bad act is canceled out by her good act (it’s hard to tell bc you’re more intent on being snippy that making your case). But as I’ve said before DFW isn’t writing US = bad and Quebec = good. John Wayne is a good example of that nuance: he’s pretty messed up psychologically but has a good heart and is with Hal when he digs up his dad

>>19736196
>they just don't teach english there like they teach french in other provinces.
Shut the fuck up squarehead. We know really well how to speak english we just don't don't want to speak it with you idiot-retards. From experience once a waitress I knew in a cantine was serving squareheads next to my table and I knew she spoke english and understands it really well but she refused to understand or to speak english. It was really funny.

You want to know the reason? Because none of the anglos ever do an effort to speak french so we just do not care anymore and we won't speak to you in english. And btw your level of french is total garbage. We learn way more english than you learn french. So fuck off you faggot son of a bitch. Thats what you get for playing really dirty tricks in the past.

>>19735820
the idea of the pathetic french canadian being any type of threat to anyone is supposed to be humorous. that's the same reason he makes the main terrorist cells a bunch of amputees in wheelchairs

>>19736978
Hal thinks Avril and CT are just very close and spends a fair amout of time trying to convince himself of that and that Mario is his full brother because it gives him some hope. Hal idolizes Mario and half brother mean he has less in common with what he idolizes, this is why Hal goes over the various thing which suggest Mario is not CTs and glosses over or ignores the things which suggest CT is the father. It is Orin that beleives CT is Mario's father. Hal is not an unreliable narrator, he is not even a narrator, the narrator is the narrator. There is a fair amout of evidence that Avril and CT are fucking, far more than there is against it, Mario being CTs son is a toss up. But I said it was conjecture, I just pointed out that it could be supported, the conjecture is baked into the book. There is not one thing in the novel suggesting Quebecers have close family ties and their families are represented exactly the same as American families. Not to mention this idea makes no sense thematically, which clearly shows that closeness changes nothing.

>>19735899
it's too in the foreground to be a theme. more of a plot device

>>19736999
>w-we are good at english! we are just pretending to be retarded to pwn you!
dam, your trick was a success because i think you and your kind are a bunch of retards

>>19737105
That's the best comeback you have? Go fuck yourself faggot.

I think the infinite jest is that it's actually trash but everyone keeps recommending it so they can pretend to be an intellectual

When was this book released?/Quebec almost separated from Canada in 95 so around the time he was writing. Probably all over the news even in the states

>>19736999
I hope that the maritimers eventually lynch you dirty franks.

>>19736978
actually, the point of John Wayne being there when Hal digs up his father's head is that you dont know whether or not he's there helping or in some kind of sinister capacity.
this is the point of him being mentioned as wearing a mask in this scene.
the fact that we don't know what happened to him is one of the big unresolvable questions of the novel.
it's not clear if he's gone because he betrayed the AFR or because he ultimately sided with them.
use your head.

>>19737092
>>19735899
it is a theme and you are wrong.
a big part of the book is about how things don't really congeal and fall apart and why that happens.
it is part of why the book's ending works.

>>19735836
What do you mean quebec is like the Florida of canada

There's a 1st edition hardcover of this near me for 75usd

>>19735901
Modern Quebecois are atheists with small families who copy the shit out of Americans whenever they can to the point political movements like BLM are a big deal over there even though there's basically no darkies

>>19735840
Only reason to annotate it that much is if you have bad short-term memory due to brain damage or if you are ESL.

>>19735937
It's not an oasis at all, American media makes its way there all the time when it gets translated in french. American pop culture is very hip and the big city Quebecois secretly envy the USA.


>>19736196
They teach english, people just don't use it in daily life so they forget it.

>>19736021
This book is Quebec in a nutshell.

>>19736216
>They’re dying on water boils, with nurses laughing as they die in hospital beds do to lack of treatment

That's just the Canadian healthcare system, kek

Here’s something I bet none of you big-brained nerds ever realized:
Incandenza is a play on the word “incandescent” because it represents Himself’s obsession with lighting and optics.

I’ll take my Reddit Gold in cash, please and thank you :^)

>>19737558
The mask is key but JW being there is pretty much to fuck with us. With that bit he is telling us right in the very first chapter to pay attention to all things mask like, masks, maps, faces in floors and so on. When we look at all the various masks in the novel we can not actually pin down why JW is there and if he is actually masked, is this a map vs territory situation. The first few chapters pretty much outline what you need to read for to not be a plot fag with IJ.
>>19737565
What you are poorly suggesting is a plot element supporting theme, not a theme.
>>19737578
Canada's penis.
>>19737818
Halation, the most holy of distortions.

>>19737868
>holy
err, angelic.

>>19736523
Stfu and get humble you retard

>>19736216
how to spot the anglo cuck: Uses indigenous people to discredit Québécois national identity.

Please, shut the fuck up and suck your Chinese landlord's dick who owns your fuck all apartment building (worth 10 million CAD dollars) GOD I LOVE MULTICULTURALISM

>>19738829
U mad?

>>19737578
t. anglo

>>19738880
not mad you're just an hypocrite with no knowledge of this country's history. You don't give a fuck about indigenous people, you're just using them to push your anti-Québec sentiment.

>>19736999
Damn man, im sorry my french education was dogshit, i sincerely wish i could speak it and actually engage with you and your people, you don't have to be so vitriolic about it i just wanted to get along

>>19737565
>a big part of the book is about how things don't really congeal and fall apart and why that happens.
yeah, that's a theme. 'Quebec Separatism' specifically is not a theme, it's literally part of the plot. that's like saying magic wands are a theme in Harry Potter or something

>>19737157
oh wow you're still putting on the show, this is fantastic. i cannot separate you from an actual retard, 10/10 acting

>>19738905
>not mad

Nah, u mad.

>>19735901
Holy shit you are retarded. I'm Quebecois, and I actually live here. It was called the silent revolution. You have no idea how much the Quebecois hate religion. Even the Ontarians next door are far more religious. My younger generation in Quebec is like consumerist Anglo hedonism on steroids. You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about

>>19739149
If any of the larpers in this thread actually took a trip to Quebec, or lived there for any amount of time, they would quickly realize that it is not the tradcath bastions of Catholicism they thought it was. What is it with Anglo's not knowing even the very basics of geopolitics?

>>19739173
I mean wtf, had anybody on this board read any French writers, even in translation, from the last century? Most of French academia is fully into the materialist Marxist perspective. And surprise surprise, it has a huge influence on the culture

>>19739173
>what is with anglos knowing nothing about a small region of 0 geopolitical consequence
what is with quebecois having 0 self-awareness

>>19738829
I am First Nations you retard. Just can’t handle the truth. And no I don’t care about your stupid special wh*te identity, you’re no different from the rest of the social Darwinist wh*te disease that floods this beautiful land reaping her of every natural resource she has and praying in the churches your dad and grandfather hurried our babies in the walls of. You just have this perceived moral superiority because historically French speakers were slightly shamed and you want so desperately to feel oppressed to have a reason to terrorize and start wars with the whites that eat slightly less carbs. You’re war hungry, power grabbing maniacs with no sense of sympathy or human compassion just like the rest of them froggy boy.

>>19740606
Nah, you're a white troll.

Real first nation people are too busy getting drunk on the rez post on transylvanian basketweaving forums.

>>19735820
La crise d'octobre was funny.

>>19740780
Like a 3rd of /co/ is Native unironically

>>19739149
>You have no idea how much the Quebecois hate religion.
In Montreal and to some extent Quebec City, sure, but the second you go into the regions it is much more religious. In any cases, you still have a much stronger influence of catholic values still at play here.
>>19739180
as for larping, picrel is my great uncle.

>>19736216
>How the fuck are Québécois going to preach Sovereignty and then treat their First Nations population as less than human?
> Actual literal cannibal descendant tries to play the race card.
VA CHIER CRISS DE CHIEN SALE.

>>19737257
>Probably all over the news even in the states
Supposedly, no. There's this joke that Clinton apparently received a call from the Canadian embassy the day of the referendum to let him know he might have a new neighbor up north and it was apparently the first time he had heard about it.
>>19739149
It's a weird mix of values.
Quebec is the most pro-abortion place in the world, for example.
At the same time, its still tradition for all the judges in the province to be invited and meet the higher members of the Clergy every year to discuss matters of morality in the law.
Laval University is probably the most right-wing university in Canada, their philosophy department is semi-specialized toward aristotelico-thomism. My Aristotle teacher there literally started his course on logic by saying "If you are atheist, you will not be able to understand anything in this course, and can leave immediately if you want."
Quebec has also a *very* strong history of Catholic sectarism, such as with the Army of Mary (one of my friend was the son of two very high members, and his conception was the reason why his parents left the cult, and "Mary" was so mad at them that she wrote a book where she literally said my friend was the Antichrist to be born).

>>19740606
Anglo-hands typed this

>>19743585
>Laval University is probably the most right-wing university in Canada
I am going there in september. Is living cheap overthere? Rent expensive?

I read this book higher than giraffe poizi. Think I need to actually read it for real, sober. It was intense as all fuck but looking back I haven't the first fucking clue what went on.

>>19743585
We're the priests of 18th century Quebec going form house to house chastising women for not being pregnant?

>>19745051
Actually yes. I've heard lots of stories of priests going to people's homes back in the day to convince women to have more kids.
Kinda based to be honest. Better than importing people from places where there's no cultural fit.

>>19735820
Will I get this book if I read it as a German? I read the first chapter and liked it, but I heard it gets quite complex later on.

>>19745931
Germany is probably second in line for target audience after the US, but I think they might be better at turning a blind eye than the US, mainly that they are better telling themselves more viable lies where Americans are great at just accepting the lies they tell themselves; lets hear it for American individualism! Most Germans (and Americans) have the ability to understand IJ but almost no one will understand it on a single read and some conversation about it. So enjoy it, you likely will have little clue but you very may well have some and you may even get the central theme, but if you don't you are doing no worse than the majority of native English speakers.

>>19744673
>I am going there in september.
Good luck, are you living on campus or outside?
Campus is the only place in Quebec City where you'll see muslims and africans, fyi. QC is literally the whitest city ever.
>Is living cheap overthere?
In comparison with every other city in North America, yes, incredibly, actually. If you look, you can find large studios in downtown at less than 500$ a month, because almost every other building is classified as a historical landmark and you cannot make modifications, so they are rent controlled super tightly.
The one thing to know is that Quebec City is not a great place if you rely on public transports. First, we're savages when it comes to it. It's insane, but there's this thing about QC, its the only city where people don't line up for getting on the bus. Everyone rushes the door and pushes everyone to get through first. Second, service is pretty poor. The city is very sprawled (we're 3 times the size of Montreal despite being a fourth of the population). If you can't find a place to rent in Ste-Foy or Sillery (the nice quarters), or St-Jean or Limoilou (the less nice, but very well located gay/low-class quarters), you can go to Charlesbourg, but you need to account about 45m to an hour of bus to get and come back from univ then.
Growing up in Quebec City and having traveled a lot, all I can say is that I feel incredibly lucky having grown up there. I can get why anglophones wouldn't get the same feeling, because unfortunately we can be less than welcoming on occasions to them, bu to me it'll always be the best place on Earth to raise children.
Picrel is the Basilica of Quebec, the entrance next to it, under the white building, was my highschool, le Petit-Seminaire-de-Quebec. We're 2 minutes walk away from the Chateau Frontenac.

>>19745051
Throughout the 18th and 19th century, yes. I don't know if this checks out, but I remember my social study teacher saying that French-Canadians had had for a while the highest recorded population growth in history.
I was watching Father Brown the other night and the whole murder mystery of the episode was busted open because a fake catholic priest had made a sermon in which he said God wanted his flock to propagate as much as possible, and to the british catholics that was inconceivable, Father Brown literally saying "No Catholic priest would ever say that." and I couldn't stop myself from bursting laughing. Not only is that *precisely* what Catholic priests did here for two centuries, there's even rumours that it was not uncommon for priests to take it upon themselves to get wives pregnant if the lack was coming from the husband's side, and not the wife.

>>19735820
>Le thread mentionne Quebec
>La discussion se transforme en culture war anglo-franco

Un autre jour comme les autres au Québekistan

>>19736216
>and then treat their First Nations population as less than human?

killing go br br br

>>19746247
Si t'es pas prêt à monter au front pour ta Nation, t'es rien qu'un sâle con.

>>19735820
I have two quebecois in my discord. As far as I can tell its the most self hating, virtue signaling and excentric place in the universe.

>>19746902
it's catholic alright

>>19746891
>monter au front pour ta Nation

En postant sur un forum taiwanais de broderie.
Les anglos peuvent ben rire de nous

bump

>>19736021
>How is Quebec separate from Canadian/American culture ?
french catholics stuck in the middle of anglo protestant

>>19736196
>they just don't teach english there like they teach french in other provinces.
they do retard

>>19743585
Part of my family is in the army of mary. I never heard about that antichrist? Who is it?

>>19735820
>>19735901
>>19735937

The Quebecois separatism in IJ is a geopolitical reaction to the contradictions within the onanistic, homogenizing force of ONAN, and in a sense, Quebec (although probably more specifically the AFR) does/do indeed serve as a foil to America's consumer culture.

However, DFW clearly had 0 interest in presenting the Quebecois Separatists as morally superior to ONAN or the US. If anything, the AFR is an example of the horror that can result from unbending nationalism, whereas ONAN is an example of the horrors of solipsistic individualism.

>>19746118
>>In comparison with every other city in North America, yes, incredibly, actually.

Quebec province has high taxes in general. USA mogs the shit out of Canada when it comes to cost of living.

>>19743474
Sure, if you count Latinos as native.

>>19748389
Charles O'Hara.
>>19748505
>Quebec province has high taxes in general.
> Oh no, I have to pay 7% more on goods while being a student that doesn't file taxes, what will I ever do?
The question was about rent and the cost of living in Quebec City. Sure, we have higher taxes, but he won't be making the, what, 28k necessary to get taxed anyways, now, will he?
When it comes to rent, Montreal is overall cheaper than Vancouver & Toronto, and Quebec City is *much* cheaper than Montreal.

>>19748839
Thanks, dude looks far from the antichrist.

Hamlet was set in france, so DFW's hamlet parody needed frenchmen.

>>19736216
Natives are warrior people therefore based and their women, when cute, are very cute

>>19736216
Sovereignty is for civilized people

>>19737783
sadly, it's true enough these days

>>19740606
You were a bunch of rather typical hunter gatherer(with all the raids, rapes, cannibalism, etc) before whitey came in and you would most likely still be there.

>>19736999
The only sentence you need to be able to say in French is ‘Est-ce que tu peux parler en Anglais maintenant?’

>>19749715
Based brainlet

>>19749579
He's a cool dude, honestly. Was my roommate for a few years, we took philosophy at Laval U together. One of the best paper I've ever read was a study on abstinence. It was supposed to be a 15 page essay for the end of the session, he wrote 40 pages, gave it a month after the end of classes, and still got an A. The teacher wrote on the back "if this was twice the length you could submit it for your master's".
Really cool dude, but we lost sight of each other years ago.