/lit/ - Literature

forgot to add it's 20 pages long. I can post more photos and answer questions in the thread to get some replies / critiques

Is it going to be animated or is it just a script for now?

>>19726484
>>19726491
This is a fun idea, please can we see more character designs?

The exposition is a bit heavy-handed. Maybe there's a way to integrate it into the dialogue more naturally?

I like the art style you have going.

>>19726484
Needs more kawaii, less why.

>>19726613
We are going to start by making a comic book fro the pilot and hopefully start making some short animations. after that we are going to use the comic and the animation shorts as an incentive for people who want to see an animated show to be able to donate money to afford it.

>>19726680
yes ! here's the main character.

>>19726826
yes you are completely right. I'm going to be honest and say this is a first draft. I just wanted to hear some feed back while i wrote the rewrite and already I'm getting rid of tons of exposition

>>19726861
thank you!

>>19726872
wdym anon?

>>19726973
sorry about how it came out Idk how to make images rotate the right way on 4chan

I'd love to watch/read what's basically a philosophy shonen. You'll be breaking new ground if you can pull it off

Don't like the noses, but cute style otherwise. Didn't read your story btw.

>>19726984
yes and I will keep trying this until I get it right! expect to see me post here more often. /lit/'s advice / critique is usually the best out of all the other boards.

>>19726997
yes the triangle noses are not very popular used concept outside of over the garden wall but I want to make it work. and thank you. and that's fine! you wouldn't want to. it's my first draft. kinda regret posting it would have rather posted a shortened more concise version.

here is all the characters more or less. tell me your favorite and least favorite designs.

>>19726973
amogus

>>19726484
Nietzsche is for incels. Bitches love Foucault and Marx.

>>19727069
Foucault is a Nietzschean though

>>19726484
I'm having trouble feeling what Mina's character is.

>>19727069
>Bitches love Foucault
I don't get why he's the fag hag philosopher when he called out these sort of women as being slaves to the power structures that lead them into wrongly believing their sexual promiscuity is exerting their 'individuality' in the first place. Maybe it's a Daddy kink thing idk.

>>19726484
>"animated philosophy"
>"girls who go on to form a philosophy club"
>"philosophical adventures"

I'm going to need some time to read it, but I like what you're going for.

>>19726484
When's the Cioran episode

>>19726484
Are you the same anon that proposed this idea some time ago? I remember partecipating to a thrend with the same concept, if so, i'm surprised you actually did it

>>19727013
I like your style a lot, noses and all.
No idea if intentional or not, but it's Sonnenschein if you want to go for the proper German spelling. If intentional, ignore what I said.

>>19726484
I liked it a lot OP. I thought the visual gags were funny

>>19727227
>>19727013
The only thing I can contribute is that I am hope you are not doing that anime thing where girls have these strange German nonsensical names.
As German, these names always weird me out. They sound too much like LARP.

>>19726484
I would help but I'm getting Tumblr tranny vibes from your post

>>19726484
All anime females are subliminally lolita-ish. This makes Japanese culture highly suspect in my mind.

>>19726484
My first piece of advice after reading this is to completely scrap the idea. I just can't stand the sight of Nietzsche getting this treatment. Every single day I go on the internet and read about the latest retardation people are posting about him, and a part of my soul fades. If you only speak one European language, you should not be allowed near him. If you're an Anglo or have a significant amount of Anglo blood, you should not be allowed near him. I'm sick of watching these literal pale-skin niggers who invented such barely human cultural vulgarities as the English language, English cooking, Anglicanism, New Atheism and Analytic philosophy, monkey dance over the corpse of one of the highest intellects the world has ever known.
But since there's probably no stopping you, my second piece of advice is to make certain facial features a bit richer. First, the triangle noses actually look a bit jarring relative to the other, more detailed features. It contrasts with the other more lifelike features. It's actually kind of an eyesore. But I don't think you should go for a simpler art style either. I think you should just make the noses more organic. Besides the nose, I'd suggest that the hair style for each character be more consistent and have both notable features and a relatively high level of detail. In general, I think you need to change some of the ridiculous looking features like the huge eyebrows, sharply arched eyes on some characters like Fritzi, and the noses. More than just looking bad, they create kind of a depressing and neurotic mise-en-scene. It's hard to make the happiness of a malformed character believable. Maybe that's what you're going for with the American school setting. Maybe you don't know different. But philosophy that comes from a low state of being is never good.
Fritzi in particular needs help. Huge upside down triangle bangs are never good, her eyebrows and eyes just look comical, and all her features are way too huge and compete with each other for space.
Basically this.
>>19726872
And please rework the script. If you're going to write Nietzsche, do this: take a look at how he writes in Daybreak and read how Montaigne writes his essays. He's not pompously preaching to an inferior or trying to shove a gigantic all-encompassing schizo worldview down your throat. He's not Marx/Hegel (even in his mega-rants he's not; there's always a presumption that he's speaking to an equal, which is why he's always omitting details that would need to be explained to someone duller). He writes as if he were just sharing his thoughts with a friend. If you want to write a candid Neech, you need to make her character more reserved. She shouldn't just be walking up to people and giving her opinion. It's especially out of character when she just goes up to someone and rubs a wound in. Have you read what he was like irl? If anything, she should be a like cryptic onlooker who only starts talking when the others approach her.

cute

>>19726484
this is very based; one of the first quality threads in a while

>>19726484
Make the characters boys.
Miyazaki making strong anime girls for all of his ghibli works ruined a whole generation of character design.

Bump

>>19726484
>>19726491
What are "philosophical adventures"? It's an interesting idea but if you can't tell an interesting story no one will want to hear the philosophical soapboxing that you add to it. Or is the story itself extremely meta/pomo such that it becomes a kind of theory-fiction? What are you trying to do exactly? Cute designs btw

>>19727404
Nietzsche should be a centaur monster girl.

>>19729130
What if K-Ons debated philosophy?

>>19729171
So there would only be one or two episodes where that is front and center and the rest are the philosophy club being the nexus for their unrelated activities like getting part time jobs or have desserts?

>>19726484
Hey OP, I don't want to put you down but I consider that writing a philosophy shonen is only going to devaluate the ideas of the philosopher you're speaking about and infantilises the reader. If your target audience is interested in philosophy they'll read the philosopher and understand their point instead of reading a dumbed down version in manga format. I understand that you want to spread philosophy or get your readers interested in it but it will only create manchilds and pseuds, akin to pomo meme accounts on instagram. You can spread philosopher's thoughts through manga but having the characters reiterate their core ideas seems lazy and harmful in the long term.

>>19729251
What is a porno meme account? It sounds very valuable.

>>19729265
If you think this you are beyond help

>>19727333
>>19727333
>This makes Japanese culture highly suspect in my mind.
far east asian culture is highly suspect anyway. If I'm racist against anyone, I'm racist against them. they're bad juju.

>>19729270
I am not debating that.

>>19729145
tru

>>19726491
Sees pickle rick plush, its about Nietzche's Morality. This sounds fun.
>please trash it as much as possible.

>What I enjoyed about what you have so far:
Your art style looks good, what youve posted looks fairly professional. In writing, your understanding of Nietzche basic core principles show. The personalities of your characters work off of each other, and their design/style meshes well with the script given.

>Things that felt a bit rough.
Mainly, its the core of your concept. There is so much more you can do with what you put down. Right now it feels like your ultimatly watering down philosiphy into a generic slice of life, comedy, school-girl comic/anime. Which takes the core themes many spent their lives studding and turns it back into mush for babies to consume.

No matter how you slice it, something will always be lost in translation. Its a hard line to balence on, philosiphy and entertainment.
You just have to take things step by step and think it over carefully. My main peice of advice would be to not rush it. Peer review it properly with people who have a foot in the industry (/lit/ might not give you the best professional advice) and LISTEN. You have a decent premise, great character design, and a good head on your shoulders. Don't waste them.

>>19726484
Where can we invest money to support this project ?

>>19729251
>writing a philosophy shonen is only going to devaluate the ideas of the philosopher you're speaking about
delusional
>infantilises the reader
they do that themselves

>>19727013
Reminds me of my friend S's drawings. I miss her. Keep it up, anon.

>>19726484
man. I wish I could draw

>>19726973
>main character is a woman
dropped.
Woman dont care about philosophy nor cant they fully understand it. Men are your main audience. why are you pandering

>>19726484
this doesn't sound like a good ideas.
what if you guy misinterpret one of the philosophy?

>>19729419
Professional American animation is ugly.

>>19726484
I’m sorry anon, I actually don’t have time to read it right now with work but it sounds like a neat idea and you have some really nice art.

>>19726973
That's pretty fucking funny. I might pay money for this, and I don't even like animes.

>>19726973
Wow! It's just the girl from wreck it ralph...

>>19729419
>watering down philosiphy into a generic slice of life, comedy, school-girl comic/anime.
Would it work better if it was not about school and characters were adults?
I gave it a thought and came to the conclusion that school settings are less complicated and are sharply coloured in comparison to the adult life, thus school works better as very clean and basic canvas for any message.

this is gonna be my last post here. I'm gonna be posting here often so I don't want to be known as someone that doesn't reply to people who put effort into their replies.

>>19727094
Does it help understanding her character better if you knew she was autistic?

>>19727116
I'm going for what some anons have described as K-on but instead of music they try solving problems with philosophy.

>>19727132
I'm gonna have a ton of fun writing the Cioran episode

>>19727148
yes! expect to see me once a week or so

>>19727227
it wasn't intentional. this was written by my artist friend who didn't know the correct spelling

>>19727285
thank you!!

>>19727294
The character's personalities are based off of the philosophers they subscribe to, and their names also reflect it. example being Fritzi Nichwitz is Friederich Nietchze's representation. Annie Sonnenschein is Arthur Schopenhauer. which is why they have weird German names

>>19727404
You are correct that the designs could do a reworking, but these are the base models, any differences done after that will have to be minimal mostly because my best friend loves them and he's the artist so not much I can do except show him this post and see what he thinks. Maybe it takes some getting used to but I've fallen in love with the design as well.

also you are right that Nietchze's personality is a bit quieter and reserved but I'm going for a crazy will to power Nietzsche simply because it makes for a more animated character.

>>19728212
u 2

>>19728225
I'll be posting once in a while marking my progress for critiques

>>19729130
Well the main idea of the show is that a group of funny characters who each represent various philosophers get together in a club. in that club activities range from having arguments, trying to solve problems with philosophy, and trying to conduct philosophical experiments. it's still vague but that's because the premise could entail many things as long as the main conflict can invoke a philosophical discussion. it's hard to describe without using a whole episodes script as an example.

and thank you!!

>>19729171
yes!

>>19729183
well picture every episode revolving around a philosophical idea that the girls can discuss and interact with.

>>19729251
the idea I got this whole concept from was a webcomic ExistentialComics.com check it out if you haven't. basically that's my goal, bringing up philosophy and philosophical concepts and ideas in a way that is funny and accessible to a large audience. this obviously might come at the sacrifice of not being able to get into a broad philosophical understanding but my goal is to delve into specific philosophical ideas such as Nietzche's concept of slave morality without having to go into all of The Genealogy of Morality.

>>19729419
thank you very much for the notes. I do agree that in order for this to work I'm going to have to deliver philosophy bites instead of being able to delve into a whole work simply because having to -

>>19730956
Exactly

>>19731636
- condense a piece of work into one episode would sacrifice on the entertainment and might bog down the audience. I'm hoping for the philosophical ideas to be learned by both the characters and the audience to a deeper extent as the show goes on throughout the whole run.

>>19729548
We don't have a way to receive funding yet. we are still working on a comic as an example of what the show would look like in order to pitch it to the internet. after which we might consider running the comic and making it be available to donators whose money would be used to fund an actual animated show.

>>19730260
thank you anon! I appreciate the sentiment.

>>19730362
it's never too late to learn anon

>>19730415
I'm hoping to have the discussions approved by actual philosophers who study a piece of the material I will present in the show. but of course this isn't 100% fool proof but if I misinterpret it would be an honest mistake.

>>19730879
thank you! and that's fine I didn't expect everyone to drop what they were doing nd read a 20 page script

>>19730946
thank you!!

>>19730956
lol my artist friend is gonna get a kick out of this

>>19731353
same thought I had but you were able to actually summarize it!

>>19731636
pic related is the representation of Arthur Schopenhauer. her name is Annie Sonnenschein

>>19726484
Looks really cool anon, Godspeed.

>>19731636
Make the girls really cute, but obviously sfw, that'll definitely amp up the potential popularity of your work.

>>19730857
>Professional American animation isn’t formulaic like I have conditioned myself to.
Uh hu.

>>19726484
The script is surprisingly polished at this stage. I can get a pretty good sense of the format here and it's really solid.

I think what you've got here is a very impressive execution of a fundamentally flawed idea. Kind of what >>19729251 is saying, I think you've come to the one group of concepts that you'll have a hard time communicating. I don't think that explanation of slave mentality was necessarily deficient, as far as it went, but you haven't scratched the surface of the reason Nietzsche was explaining it or how he went on to apply it. This isn't a fault with your script, it's a fault with trying to explain philosophy in 2 minute conversations. In like 50 episodes you may have started to cover a representative amount of Nietzsche but I don't think you want to maintain that degree of focus and I don't think audiences want you to.

It's easy to use this type of format to explain interesting facets of chemistry or zoology, but philosophy is fundamentally different. Any great philosopher in the modern day is inherently going to be working on and within a system of ideas. If you manage to mold a relevant concept into something that can stand on its own in a short animation, you've removed its relevancy.

This format could work better for touching on moments in the history of philosophy, simply because the generally accepted standard of learning in these areas is more suited to the display of anecdotes and characters. This does seem somewhat incompatible with your vision though.

If I'm being generous you might be able to make it work in a purely graphic novel form, without page limits, but I think that's just getting closer to a book. You and whoever you're working with are very talented, but this concept might be constitutionally undoable.

>>19731774
>>19729251

You are all completely correct. the execution, even at its best, would never be able to reach the level of depth that reading the actual works would be able to. However, I have faith that the concept can work simply because of one of the greatest influences of the show.

existentialcomics.com
and the podcast philosophy bites, where a host interviews a philosopher about bite-sized topics for around 12-30 min.

these two have reasonable success. my aim is to transmit these ideas into a comfy slice of life comedy format in a way that is digestible and engaging.

I've accepted that I can't truly delve deep into these philosophers ideas.

my personal philosophy is that if more people realized and accepted that they don't really know everything about anything, then the world would be a better place. the aim of the show isn't to present a complete account of a philosophers work or the history of philosophy, the aim is to make people think a little deeper and more critically about their preconceived notions and beliefs.

There's also another aim I have for the show and it's a bit more personal. I went through a very dark period in my time that was mixed with a deep existential crisis.

I remember at some point going through Netflix to find shows that could maybe connect with me. There's a lot of good shows out there but none that directly set out to ask and try to work through the questions in my mind.

I want to make a show that would connect with people who are trying to find meaning in their lives and presenting it in as a comfy show with funny cute characters who talk about philosophical concepts. I feel like a show like that would have helped me get through that dark period in my life. something that would get me to realize that there are many different viewpoints and perceptions about the world and our place in it.

that is why I am writing this show.

>>19726484
first half is meh but pretty good. can you integrate the philosophizing some other way though? i would hate to read a manga that has line after line of expo.

>>19730415
What do you mean 'misinterpret'? I don't think the philosophy is meant to stand irl, only in relation with the character's motivations.

Like how fritz uses slave morality as a justification to beat up the boygirl. I'm sure later on after Mina read other works the two will duke it out.

I like it anon but I would get fucking pissed reading any philosophy manga because it would never end.

>>19727404
Did you even read the fucking script. She hasn't read Daybreak or anything other than what her dumbass dad cherrypicked for her every night before bed. Maybe OP wants to add some character progression to make the story interesting, instead of making her an actual stand in for the guy at the beginning.

>>19727094
stand in for reader im guessing

>>19726484
I hope you follow through with this OP. If you sell the concept / plot well I'm sure it could turn into something fruitful. My input after reading:

Maybe you could introduce the philosophical topic closer to the beginning, because I felt that there was way too much setup in the first half. But I did enjoy it especially as a concept script; Fritz applies her underdeveloped thinking IRL. She gets dunked on by Mina. They both leave somewhat more enlightened. But I do worry about the 'one-shot'-ish nature of the club further on, one that I hope wouldn't devolve into you pushing your own conclusions about a particular author's works on the reader as if it were fact. I see Mina as the stand in for the reader, but in the end if you're the only one writing both her and Fritzi it would be difficult to look past your own biases and assumptions.

Because there isn't any real stakes at hand here; the girls are merely philosophizing for the sake of philosophizing, they don't really have to think because there isn't any consequences to it. In fact, as I was reading Fritzi slap the lasagne from Mina's hands, I was wondering if she had a bad upbringing or something? You mentioned her getting read Nietzsche every night by her father, who might use that same bad interpretation as justification to beat the shit out of his wife. Like what the Nazis did with the ubermensch: cherrypick and misinterpret. Maybe she or a friend is suicidal and she needs to philosophize thoroughly on the end result, without being too cliche of course. So yes, philosophical adventures I definitely have a hard on for. Make the dragon as big and as undefeatable as possible.

I especially liked the ENSLAVEMENT OF THE JEWS IN EGYPT flashback. I can see why you'd want some of his works to be visualised as I barely understood a thing from reading Beyond Good and Evil, and it would definitely help readers or watchers who are new to the subject. Carefully treading the line of spoon-fed cliche ideas and thoroughly thought provoking ones is where I think lies seriously good potential for this.

Manga or cartoon or anime; god-speed OP. I hope you can overcome your suffering whether you choose to pursue this or not.

you are not getting enough money for an animation unless this is a runaway success. lower your expectations, and just go for a full comic book series, with hopes for a later animated adaptation

Philosophy is stupid.

>>19732020
Her role in name, design, and narrative, is that she represents Nietzsche. She's his avatar, and her personality very much does count as an interpretation of Nietzsche. OP even admits this.
Narrative-wise, it doesn't even make sense to claim she represents an intentionally cherry picked version, because Fritzi explicitly mentions having read certain books, and cites them in ways that show she doesn't actually know their contents (because OP didn't read/understand them).

>>19732599
Right. Given Fritzi goes to primary school and claims she doesn't actually know Nietzsche the best she can, why would OP write her in the way Nietzsche talks with a buddy? Surely that would come 10 chapters in, or at least when she's in high school after a hard emo phase or something. (Or maybe her dad is a pseudo-intellectual and gets a divorce with his equally flawed wife, and Fritzi agonizes over the decision to choose which parent to stay with after everything she has read and learnt. But in the end she would be one step closer to embodying Nietzsche.)

I thought she didn't really represent him at all but he's writing to the general audience who hasn't read Nietzsche. Also can't make her too smart or high up on her intellectual horse because then she would be narratively overpowered until an equal could challenge her.

It does make sense that she represents a cherry picked version: everything that OP can reasonably sum up about what he knows about the guy. Again it wouldn't be very entertaining for Nietzsche readers or anyone else if she were to represent him perfectly like in Dawn of Day. Because then there would be no character progression, no learning for Fritzi, she's level 100 from Chapter 1.

In fact I think OP should actually make her more flawed and more childlike, while making it clear every now and then that she does embody those parts of Nietzsche's most important values, whatever he thinks those are.

>>19726484
You better give the main character a huge braid and a cute scarf

>>19727404
Bombastic Nietzsche is better idea. I get what you're saying but OP's approach is smarter.

>>19733160
It be kinda cool if there was a character who resembled Shirley.

>>19733315
>>19733071
The thing is that power level 1 Nietzsche should be a Christian himself. It doesn't make sense for her to start the series and already be raging against Christianity and proclaiming the Overman. She should discover Nietzsche's books in some forgotten/hidden part of the library and have a crisis of faith. The whole "My dad taught me Neech and now I am a philosopher" is a pathetic backstory, and makes for a jarring introduction to her character.

>>19733447
>The thing is that power level 1 Nietzsche should be a Christian himself
I don't suppose Fritzi is going to be the sole focus of the show, and trying to fit Nietzsche's own life story into a character will just make a cartoon biography. Fritzi's current image coincides with the exact image of Nietzschean philosophy the general public has in mind, and consequently deepening and broadening her views will be a lot more effective to change this image than animating Ecce Homo

>>19733447
Ofc other ideas are possible. Maybe she was raised as a poor street urchin, and hung out at the library all day as an escape from the streets. There she became a bookworm, discovered Neech, and found in him some inspiration to scoundrel her way out of abject poverty and get into a nice school. Although this is the US, so this is implausible. But c'mon, there should be more room for making imaginative and interesting Nietzsche backstories than there is for any other philosophical figure.

>>19726484
I do wonder about the prospect of character development when some/most of the characters are meant to fully understand and embody some philosopher's work. Like Fritzi maybe could be shown to be a weird chuuni at some point, where she has to grow into the ideas that she says she believes.

>>19733535
>Although this is the US, so this is implausible
Make her a black woman from some ghetto

>>19733499
So be it. The Nietzsche we get is the one you'll deserve.

>>19733731
Anyone who signs their papers as DIONYSUS THE CRUCIFIED is chuuni

>>19726973
Remember to properly shill it, you have to drum up some attention if you want to meet success. Also amongus in the top right near the tree.

>>19726484

This shit is crazy cringe. Have them read some French dogshit you can understand like Foucault or Camus

>>19726491
>>19726973

I like your expressions