/lit/ - Literature

>>19518181
You know the Communists had to do it to them.
They deserved it.
No apologies.

Isn't that the book that counts the hypothetical unborn future children of dead people as part of its death toll? Very scientific.

>>19518199
they estimated the people who starved to death during mao's reign by looking at the dent in population growth in china. obviously the ccp would report fake numbers about the deaths just like they do today about covid cases, corporate debt owed by ccp run companies and everything else in their fake economy.

>>19518181
It makes commies seethe so it's kino. It also exposes them as ideologues because they go into standard ideologue defence mode: using the nebulous nature of their beliefs to redefine criticism in their terms and/or dismissing criticisms piecemeal in order to distract from the fact the ideas presented holistically expose the rotten core of their worldview.

>>19518229
that's the most hilarious part of marxism, a supposedly materialist system, entirely depends on ideology! it would be a joke if it hadn't send 100 million people to the grave.

>>19518218
meds

>It makes commies seethe so it's kino.

>>19518181
Here's a question, does it really matter? There's undeniable proof that tens of millions of people died under Marxist/Communist/Socialist regimes for a variety of reasons all of which were directly the result of the underlying Marxist ideology, whether it was failed economic policies which resulted in famines or ideological purges which resulted in mass arrests, imprisonments, and murders, it doesn't matter. Oh no the Le Black Book lied and inflated the amount of deaths from 85 million to 100 million, this totally exonerates my retarded ideology which has still never worked!11!1!! Get rekt chuds.

>>19518181
Sounds like cuck stuff, frankly. What are you going to do, get into an argument about statistics with an Antifa member?

>>19518181
Its fundamentally gay.

Great leap forward dwarfs all other deaths caused by Marxists regimes, to the point that even the margin of error on Maos famine is greater than all non-Chinese victims combined.

>>19518235
You write like you’re on an anti-Marxist boomer Facebook page

>>19518181

Just because communism killed millions doesn't make capitalism better.
Start counting as a percentage of world population and the 16 million indigenous in the Americas in the 16th century through the slave trade, into the industrial age and the world wars and the pandemics that would not have happened but for profiteering, and the body count of neocolonialism of capitalism dwarfs that number.
And that is just the human body count. What about the Anthropocene extinction? We are not the only ones on this planet. It used to take hundreds of millions of years for an asteroid or Big volcano or whatnot to destroy life. Capitalism has done it in less than 500 years!

This is just more propaganda, and you all fall for it. Both communism and capitalism are bad social management. It says a lot about how stupid one must be that you would think these are your only choices.

>>19518428
so marxists are claiming that a 16th century slave economy was capitalism now? sounds like a big cope for the fact that communism is one of the most inhuman and oppressive schemes ever devised

GOMMIIESSSSS

>>19518181
Better books have been written on communist atrocities, read them instead
Marxists don't read and thus if you don't mention one of the three books they recognise (this, archipelago and sometimes, bloodlands) because their favourite breadtuber keeps mentioning it, they'll blabber even more incoherently than usual

>>19518428
>To destroy life
>More people on this Earth than ever in history
>Rates of violence and infant mortality plummetting on every continent
>Standard of living for even the lower classes of society steadily increasing
Also, are you implying both world wars were the result of Capitalism? I agree that people who think that have to choose between one or the other are retarded but everything you just said about Capitalism was fucking stupid. You might as well just blame every atrocity that didn't happen under Communism to Capitalism at this point.

>>19518181
>but other than that, is it a trustworthy source regarding the events that have taken place across the world as a whole?
other than the fact that it’s filled with lies in order to prove a false thesis, yeah sure it’s accurate. what kind of a dumb question is that?

>>19518458
Has there ever been a genuinely solid rebuttal to the Gulag Archipelago? I'm in the middle of reading it currently and I did skim some of the criticisms of it and the author before reading it and most of what I saw was that he had a few details wrong and that he was supposedly Anti-Semitic.

>>19518332
Case in point

>>19518181
>Nazi soldier deaths
You mean German PoW deaths
>le everyone was a Nazi SS trooper and not just a random twat born into what their parents voted/cucked themselves into
nah, just the communist militants that joined when their side lost in Germany. lul "Beef steak Nazis".

I honestly despise Germans and think that ww2 is a typical Teuton 'tism storm, but if you want to adhere to modern standards you don't work/starve/rape PoWs to death, especially after the war ends.

>>19518445
Depending on the country and time, it was

The confederate slavery was capitalism. But I would not define the Roman slavery as capitalism for example.

>>19518445
>so marxists are claiming that a 16th century slave economy was capitalism now?
wtf?

What was it then, moron? You gonna blame that on communism too?

>>19518462

I absolutely without any doubt and with the support of virtually ever historian and economist living and dead assert as true as gravity that world war 2 was the result of capitalism.

How can anyone be this fucking stupid and yet be able to get his fingers to type words...

>>19518505
>soldier deaths
And the Russian, Ukrainian, Belarussian civilians they killed I’m sure.

>>19518445
By a very strict definition slavery is not capitalism because capitalism requires a wage/labor relationship between employers and workers.

But if you’re going by the most libertarian definition of capitalism (private property free market) definition of capitalism then certain types of slavery definitely were. Indentured servitude and some of the most recent examples like confederate slavery could be seen as capitalist. Slavery naturally props up in a free market because slaves are a commodity people are willing to pay for. They are owned as property just like land or tools. It’s the government saying “stop” that makes it stop. Remember in the confederacy it was not the government keeping slaves it was private citizen land owners who wanted cheap (free) labor.

>>19518566
The capitalist thing to do would be to pay the slaves in cash rather than free food, free lodgings, free healthcare, and free retirement homes.

If a slave gets sick or injured, they need to be treated, because they're a valuable piece of property. If an employee can't come to work, you can just fire him and hire a new one. Similarly, there's no way to get rid of a slave that's no longer able to work. You can't sell them on or kill them off. You're on the hook for their rice and beans until they die.

This book is bullshit.

That said, I am embarrassed by all the communists itt bringing up the deaths caused by capitalism. Capitalism is a necessary step in the stages of development and the buildup of productive forces which it performs is a critical prerequisite for the socialist and communist stages of development. The deaths of the natives, the slaves, the deaths of colonialism, etc. were necessary as part of the capitalist stage, which means they were needed for the socialist stage to happen. Your attitude toward these deaths should not be “capitalism is so evil!” but instead “these were necessary deaths”.

>>19518581
Holy kek

>>19518478
>Most of it is campfire rumours.
>Solzhenycin got state of the art cancer treatment and ticket to America, when the Bolsheviks could have just increased the radiation dose to silently off him before his books spread
>According to the rumours, he was a snitch, but he definitely had a comfortable time in the camps compared to normal inmates

>>19518610
>If a slave gets sick or injured, they need to be treated
That depends.

What would save the most money? Treating him or just buying a new one? Or maybe you just have so many slaves that losing 1 isn’t even a big deal.

>>19518625

Jesus Christ you are fucking thick! The communists and those who are anti-capitalist on this thread did NOT write a book about how the capitalists caused massive death.

A fucking Capitalist propagandist, who found stupid people like you who don't understand that you can criticize capitalism without being a communist -- that there is not some excluded middle that says if you are not capitalist you are therefore communist -- wrote a book trying to distract from the criticisms of capitalism by blaming deaths on communists.

Really. You need to examine your life dude. Are you really going to go through life being the butt baby of the right that uses these kinds of arguments, NOT to actually persuade people, but to themselves exclude all that are too smart to fall for their bullshit until they are left with an army of retards to pass out their Republican pamphlets?

>>19518606
u realize marx lived contemporaneously with the american slave economy? what did he say about it? did he consider it "capitalist"? if slaves are capital then what would a communist revolution in the south look like? the overseers in the field overthrow the plantation owners and seize the slaves for themselves? the problem is when marx was writing about slavery, communism hadn't killed 100 million people yet, so he didn't have the foresight to make copes about slavery being capitalism. i mean shit, might as well say feudalism is capitalism too then.

>>19518648
This whole idea that the slave owners of the past had to treat their slaves nicely is kinda dumb ngl.

Sure you had to feed them and give them “shelter”. But that’s about it. Slave owners were for the most part money minded capitalists. They cut corners to boost profits just like business owners do today. I’m sure there were “good” slave owners who weren’t like that but when you add in the money incentives they probably did the bare minimum.

>>19518660
Settle down babe, whether you pass out Republican fliers or communist ones, you accomplish absolutely nothing in the end

>>19518668
the communists who were in the charge of mao's communes also "cut corners" and over-reported their production numbers leading to mao exporting grain to albania at the same time millions of people are starving to death in a famine.

>>19518666
Correct me if I’m wrong but Marx was an admirer of both Abraham Lincoln and John Brown (if you don’t know who #2 is he tried to start a slave revolt)

>>19518695
marx was a fan of fucking his maid. the question is did he consider slavery capitalism?

>>19518707
but the slaves are the capital according to people trying to retcon slavery to be capitalism

>>19518705
You know marx didn’t invent socialism right?

He didn’t write too much about slavery but from what we know he did sympathize with the slaves

>>19518717
face it, if you're an orthodox marxist you cannot categorize agrarian mode of production whether slave, serf, or freeman, as capitalism. just own the fact that communism sent 100 million working class people to their death.

>>19518638
You haven't read it.

>>19518731
Yes.

>>19518705
Slaves are not proletarians by definition.

But slave owners are bourgeoisie by definition.

And it’s a capitalist society which allows slavery to take place . So it’s a ve

>>19518727
I’m not an orthodox marxist.

And I’m only talking about confederate slavery (of which the world was no longer feudal when it was taking place)

>>19518638
>Solid Rebuttal
>Literal rumors
Kys

>>19518747
So no in the most strict definition of the word “capitalism” the relationship between a slave and a slave owner is not a capitalist relationship.

Nor do I even care. I don’t think this is a settled debate and would like to explore the concept further.

>>19518760
But it did take place within a capitalist society and the slave owners themselves were capitalists.

>>19518753
>Literal rumors
Whats your problem with rumours?

>>19518767
The only reason you cannot call cattle slavery capitalism by the most strict definition of the word is because there is no wage/labor relationship. All it really means is that slaves are not proletarians.

But I WOULD argue that unregulated capitalism LEADS to slavery. it creates a new class even lower than that of the proletarians

>>19518648
They wouldn't be able to make that calculation. In capitalism, a company can do it by analysing their book-keeping and giving healthcare plans to workers that would be more expensive to replace. Slaves are pretty much interchangeable menial labourers. They were less commodified than modern employees, and an entire life-cycle was expected. A plantation was like a village or extended family, and old slaves could serve as nannies or baby-sitters.

Also, doctors weren't as highly paid as they are now. They had a four-year education and there was a stereotype that they spent most of that drunk. Barbers performed surgery and didn't require a degree. Most medicine was not protected by patents.

This isn't to say that a plantation was some garden of Eden, but it wasn't as shrewdly calculated as a modern workplace. There's no way that any money-minded person would prefer slaves to workers. This is why it's not capitalistic: not everything has been given a price tag yet.

>>19518786
>>
The wage is the relationship not the formal claim. If slaves have to work hours to get paid quota of food they’re actually proletarian.

Substantial relationship not formal cultural claims.

>>19518800
Ah yes, one could also make the argument that being given food and shelter in exchange for work is “paid” labor which would kind of make them proletarian. But it would also mean the definition of unpaid labor as slavery is wrong. Unless someone already has a home/food of their own and they just show up to work for 8 hours without getting paid

>>19518753
The best was how anon said that the book is just "campfire rumors" and then ad homed Solzhenitsyn based on rumors. Aside, he admitted he didn't read it (>>19518731; >>19518737) or he's a retard who lacked the reading comprehension to answer the question unambiguously; the latter would explain focusing on singular anecdotes offered instead of the overarching ideas presented about the dehumanization and generally fucked up nature of the camp system. The first 100 pages or so of Vol. 1 are literally just about admittance to the camp and the varying reactions of those and being initiated into them (with brief asides about the absurdities that lead to how one ends up in that place).

>>19518820
Cows and pigs are given food and shelter in exchange for meat and milk.

Does that make them part of the proletarian class?

>>19518820
Reread wage in capital. Surplus labour is unpaid but “shouldn’t” be paid as it is beyond the social price of labour. Now the social price of labour is politically determined…

>>19518181
Gotta crack a few omelets to make an egg

Genuine historicism doesn't look at one "ideology" or form of governance and counts death tolls to make a point against said system. It just makes zero sense to look at history in the form of ideologies or systems that allegedly killed X amount of people in Y amount of isolated events. Same thing goes for "capitalism killed much more" arguments. That's kindergarten-tier tribalism and should be of no interest to you if you want to know history in terms of documented events and their causality and such. If you want to be spoonfed with a disingenious McHistory of communism then go for it, otherwise you're wasting your time and intellect. I don't even know why you're asking this when you seem to be aware that it's just state intelligence propaganda.

>>19518355
China just has some weird predisposition to absolutely gargantuan death tolls. There was a civil war in the 1800s cuz some emperor got brainwashed by faggot christian missionaries and believed he was the brother of Jesus Christ, 100 million+ died in his crusade against his own people. Never hear this number mentioned though, just maos agricultural retardation which had little to do with communism but you bet your fanny the two will be permanently linked for all history by those who need to smear what they dont like

>>19518218
cope

>>19518684
What point are you trying to make

>>19518428
Just lol
Counting anyone that dies for any reason as a victim of an ideology. Tell me how the deaths from disease caused by the arrival of euros in the Americas or the people killed by fascists and socialists in WWII are attributable to capitalism hahahahahaha

>>19519145
Collectivizing the farms had nothing to do with socialism guys, trust me hahahaha

>>19519230
COVID came from China. A socialist leaning government. They were unable to control the spread of this disease.

Therefore the 5 million people who have died worldwide from COVID are victims of socialism. Sounds ridiculous right? But if you ask the people who wrote op’s book they would probably agree with you considering this is a far more justified degree of measurement than the bullshit they already believe

>mao orders all the sparrows to be killed
>with no sparrows to eat them, bugs and locusts infest crops causing a famine where millions starve

That’s not communism, that’s just stupid.

>>19519326
This actually happened btw. It was called the four pests campaign and was a part of the Great Leap Forward.

>>19519230
ummmm why then did they go to the Americas? Did they not grow cash crops like tobacco and cotton? Or do you believe the bullshit they teach in your american schools that they were seeking religious freedom...
.. now THAT is actually laughable!

Remember also that they left Jamaica and moved to what is now the south of the USA because the crown outlawed slavery.

But of course you probably think democrats eat babies n' shit, so never mind...

>>19519273
History's deadliest war by an order of magnitude had nothing to do with christianity guys, trust me haha

>>19519302
Do you attempt to reconcile your initial point with the fact that the country with the absolute worst outcome by far is also the world's capitalist core, or are you only here to parrot 'chyna bad' with no nuance or understanding of complex systems?

>>19519326
No anon, thats communism.

>>19519408
>>19519302
Sorry there was supposed to be a reference to the boomerposter somewhere in this post

>>19518581
>that world war 2 was the result of capitalism
What is amazing is not how indoctrinated beyond redemption you people are. No,what is absolutely out of this world is how completely and utterly they have managed to alter your perception of reality.You people look in the mirror and think you are beautifull and/or strong, you hear yourself talk and you think you are clever. Truly mesmerising.Blind and ugly sheep that think of themselves as free and titanic beings.

>>19518181
seems like boomer stuff, i really don't care. heckin sp00ky gommunizzum!!! le ebil :DD
the people destroying the past and present and future of my life my race and my nation aren't communists.

>>19519408
>are you only here to parrot 'chyna bad' with no nuance or understanding of complex systems?
That’s not what I was doing at all

Re read my post

>>19519539
And your words of it hitting the capitalist core the hardest is a good point as well

>>19519466
If you don't believe that Marxism has any role to play in the ongoing state of decay in the West and among Europeans you are delusional

>>19519584
The west isn't decaying, you fucking retard. You faggots are just as annoying socialists with your melodramatic non-sense.

Does it talk about the over representation of (((a certain group of people))) in this whole commie racket?

>>19519464

That is really a stellar argument. You'll go far anon!

You literally can not make a single argument that justifies why communism is necessary or feasible right now. No socialist ever argues why should we adopt their ideas. Socialists can't name a single problem socialism would solve. Every socialist is just a faggot wasting time with sophistry. I've asked socialists for years to give an argument why such a dramatic change in production is necessary. They never make any empirical or even rational arguments. I dare a single socialist to give a single argument as to why socialist is necessary for anything at all.

>>19519584

..you dooooo realize that Marxism is a Reaction to capitalism, don't you. and that if capitalism wooorked there would not beeee a Marxism?

>>19518181
It's a sad fact that reasonably sane, intelligent people are allowing themselves to repeatedly get sucked into good faith discussions with people whose starting point is quite literally:
>Nooo!!! It wasn't that many tens of millions of people who died directly as a result of my ideology, it was this many tens of millions of people

>>19519618
Every single ideology to exist has kills tens of millions of people.

Except for the incredibly niche ones nobody actually believes in.

>>19519618
Communists are never in good faith. Look at this thread. These faggots just play whataboutism and never actually discuss why people should care about they say. They just waste time.

>>19519617
Are you literally trying to argue that any "reaction" to literally anything is proof that whatever thing is being reacted to is wrong/broken? I hope not, because that would be retarded.

>>19519611

Point conceded. So why are the capitalist's bringing up communism when capitalism is criticized for being exploitative, extortive and deceptive?

Why is capitalism's only response to the argument that capitalism uses tricks to get dumb people to think it works, just another trick to get dumb people to think there is nothing better?

>>19519584
no, actually, i don't believe that international financiers, the world economic forum, the united nations and the atlantic council are marxists.

>>19519640
See - you're doing exactly what I'm talking about. You don't even discuss why we should switch to communism. You just want to talk about capitalism. Can you literally name a single fucking issue communism would solve for anyone. Just one. Your criticisms of capitalism are just a world salad of buzzwords. You can not name a single issue capitalism is behind, nor can you name a single reason why communism is necessary.

>>19519639

"oh shit my car doesn't work!"
"let's try replacing the battery, whoops that didn't work."
"You broke my car by fucking with the battery!"

That's you .
That's what you sound like.

>>19519652
Name any issue in the world and I will explain to you why capitalism is behind it

>>19519663
How fucking retarded are you that you advocate for something radical, and can't even explain why? Marx wrote a whole book on capitalism, and you can't even use it to develop an argument? Wow, worthless theorist.

>>19519652
Take a moment to see how stupid that statement is. I have never suggested we switch to communism.
You have fallen for the trap set by the author. Instead of answering the criticism of capitalism the author attacks communism.
He can do this because you are stupid. You think there is only communism or captialism because you are stupid.

Why can't you get that?

You are literally LITERALLY too stupid to know you are too stupid!
There are libraries full of alternative systems to capitalism and communism.

>>19519634
Very true, but it's way more nuanced than that. How many of those same ideologies have killed as many people or have caused the amount of suffering that Marxism/Communism has in the same span of time? How many of those ideologies were proven to have worked on some level or proven to have at least some amount of tangible upside?

>>19519680
But you are fucking stupid. You can't even answer a SINGLE QUESTION. A simple one at that. You want us to waste time listening to you when you can't even discuss why your dumbass beliefs are necessary. You are a fucking joke. Kill yourself, and everyone communist in the thread with you.

>>19519687

what question?

>>19519697
See >>19519611
Answer it now. Stop dodging. You can read the thread.

>>19519680
Why is an alternative to capitalism necessary? I'm asking basic questions, and you people can't even name one. You've spent like 10+ posts just dodging this softball questions to sperg.

>>19519702
You have to realize the faults of capitalism before you can begin to consider alternative economic systems. You can’t fix a problem if you don’t even recognize the existence of said problem.

>>19519713
>Why is an alternative to capitalism necessary? I'm asking basic questions, and you people can't even name one.
Look through the whole thread?

Anytime somebody says something about capitalism you go, “b-but communism!” many many many critiques have been made of capitalism. We’re going in circles here.

You can start with the way surplus value is extracted from workers. Labor is entitled to all it creates.

>>19519715
LOL YOU FAGGOT YOU CAN'T EVEN ANSWER THE QUESTION. THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M TALKING ABOUT YOU PIVOTING FUCK. God, you are a fucking moron. I'm not even wasting anymore time with this.

>>19519466
jews ain't the problem, anon.

>>19519727
>I'm not even wasting anymore time with this.
Buh bye, thanks for playing

>>19519596
Is communism bad because of the jews? Because, hoo boy, I got something to tell you about our current capitalist system in the west you are NOT gonna like

>>19519702

>You literally can not make a single argument that justifies why communism is necessary or feasible right now.

I would never try. Communism and socialism are centralized social management systems and as such cannot predict what people will want.

What I am saying is that Capitalism IS A CENTRALIZES SOCIAL MANAGEMENT SYSTEM TOO! You are just too stupid to see it because they hide behind the myth of how capitalism works.

Pro tip, It doesn't work the way you think it does.

When we actually get into the weeds of why it doesn't work, capitalists come up with books like this one that distract instead of answering the very pointed questions on the theory presented by capitalism's detractors.
They can do this because you are so stupid you cannot possibly understand why capitalism fails, and you are easily suckered into the lie that the only alternative to capitalism is communism.
That is what I am saying.
Now if you'd like to hear the arguments as to why capitalism is a con game, and you promise not to bring up communism, I will tell you.

But only if you are good.

>>19519681
One single war in the name of Christianity killed more people than the entirety of these allegations against communism

>>19519741
You type like a fag and your shits all retarded

>>19519727
Does because someone agrees with marx’s analysis and critique of capitalist society does not mean they agree with communism. He was right about pretty much everything except for his solution. Do you agree with this statement?

>>19519757
And what war was that anon?

>>19519758
So it's all the fault of the jews. They exist to ruin the world? Is that it?

>>19519734
the jews you're referring to are the most visible and obvious distillation of what may be a problem that would exist without them but it doesn't matter.
>jews ain't the problem
it certainly ain't marxists, either.

>>19519769
Yeah basically they're conniving christ killers and you're a sarcastic little faggot

>>19519769
you know they killed Jesus, right? As in, God made man? "his blood be upon us and our children." that was their choice.

>>19519766
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

>>19519784
>you know they killed jesus right
ok and?

>>19518625
retard posting hours

>>19519788
I won't pretend to be an expert on the Taiping Rebellion in China or Christianity in China but putting aside whether or not "Christianity" was at fault for every single death that occurred during the rebellion (it wasn't, considering that there were numerous other rebellions which coencided with the rebellion of the Heavenly Kingdom all of which attributed heavily to the death toll), the death count still is still nothing in comparison to the death count of even the Great Leap Forward, which occurred in a considerably smaller amount of time.

>>19519818
Mao was a retard who had no business making unsubstantiated goals like killing sparrows on croplands in china, but i dont see how that is a fault of communism, nor how the starvations are somehow counted as victims of the system

>>19519830
If the famines are the direct result of economic policies or economic theory which is dictated by your ideology how is that not a fault of your ideology? And no, I'm not saying that Marx wrote "kill sparrows lmao" in the Communist Manifesto, but those destructive policies were clearly negative side effects of the overall Marxist/Communist/Socialist goals of collectivization, etc.

>>19519830
Communist policies, dictated and enforced by the communist party, directly created the famines.

>>19519840
>>19519843
They were not communist policies, they were agrarian policies. Communism has no policies regarding agricultural effectiveness. One man at the top was making retarded planning decisions, which, if you understood communism, which is a dictatorship of the proletariat, quite literally cannot have such a leader. Stop being retarded

>>19519843

And before that people starved because violent authorities would gather their food to sell so that they could get money to buy shit.
That is called capitalism...

>>19519869
Ah here we have the trifecta of Commie cope:
>That wasn't real Communism!111!1!
>It was the fault of the guy in charge!!!1!1!
>Y-y-you just don't understand Communism!!1!1!1

>>19518181
No political book is trustworthy.


Just read books on both ends and make up your own mind

>>19518218
>just like they do today about covid cases,
No they don't lol.

>>19519872
Whataboutism

>>19519890
Imagine being this retarded. You think an accidentally leaked bio weapon didn’t spread through 10% of that shithole’s population before the Chinks in Charge knew the difference?

>>19519883
communism is a dictatorship of the proletariat, mao was just one guy. i really don't know what else to tell you

>>19519883
He literally said it was the fault of the guy in charge

The argument is that it has nothing to do with communism. It could’ve happened under any economic system. Let’s say the four pests campaign happened in the USA or in Western Europe, would you blame that on capitalism?

>>19519949
see
>>19518283

>>19519840
>And no, I'm not saying that Marx wrote "kill sparrows lmao" in the Communist Manifesto,
Then what are you saying?

If it’s not a direct result or communist policies then how is it a direct result of communist policies?

>>19518181
Unsubstantiated hogwash compiled and promoted by nazi sympathizers.

>>19519978
Because it happened within a communist country?

You realize that not everything that happens in a socialist country is done in the name of socialism. China did not invade virtually all of its bordering neighbors because invading countries is intrinsic to socialism. They did it because they believe those countries to be rightful Chinese clay. North Vietnam did not invade south Vietnam because of communism, neither did North Korea invade South Korea due to communism. They did it because they wanted to reunite the country. And mao did not kill all the sparrows because of communism. He did it because he’s retarded.

>>19518625
Based, moralfaggotry is a brain disease.

>>19519953

>The argument is that it has nothing to do with communism.

The form of collectivized farming practiced in Communist countries was explicitly the result of Marxist-Leninist economic theory. How are then the disastrotus consequences of the side effects of those policies, whether they were poorly implemented or poorly supervised, not attributable to the underlying economic system? And yes, if a Capitalist policy resulted in the deaths of millions of people I would attribute it to Capitalism. The difference here is that Collective farming is not a Capitalist policy.

>>19519978
So did you just stop reading at that point? The underlying push for those specific policies was the result of the ideological interpretation of Marxist-Lenist theory. This is such slimly, bad faith arguing that you are engaging in, attempting to do away with the atrocities committed under Communist regimes by claiming that those policies weren't explicitly dictated by Marx himself. I didn't realize Capitalism was still operating under the explicit theory of Adam Smith.

>>19520035
>The form of collectivized farming
We were talking about the four pests campaign, in which they tried to exterminate rodents, sparrows, mosquitoes, and certain types of flies in an attempt to stop the spread of disease. This had unforeseen consequences, because with no sparrows to eat them the population of locusts and other bugs exploded eating crops and causing a famine.

>>19519998
>Le Nazis
Go back

>>19520043
>The underlying push for those specific policies was the result of the ideological interpretation of Marxist-Lenist theory
No it wasn’t

Repeating yourself doesn’t make it true

>>19520043
>>19520060
We seem to think we were taking about collectivized farming, in which case you would be right but that’s not what we were talking about

>>19520064
You seem to think*

Collectivized farming actually is intrinsic to communist economy theory. The same thing happened under Stalin. But that’s not what we were talking about.

>>19520101
>Collectivized farming actually is intrinsic to communist economy theory

Jesus fucking christ this thread is a wreck. Has there been some big influx of tourists from somewhere else or something?

>>19520111
Ummm yes?

If you object to Communism purely on the grounds of its death count, you're an idiot. Huge sections of the World, outside of Europe, would of butchered each other for any other reason. The numbers are ridiculous to the point of absurdity because of flawed methodology, the same methodology can be used to undermine any political system.

The real reason to object to Communism is structural. The lack of hierarchy, the surrendering of sovereignty of both the group and the individual, the destruction of culture, identifies and history, the utter reduction of the workforce to materials and statistics and the rampant corruption and graft that is needed to keep the wheels from falling off.

>>19520111
Uhh? If it isn't then how the fuck do Communists feed themselves?

>>19520111
>I have my own head-canon that in no way reflects what I have read on the subject

>>19520111
Abolishing private property is the whole point of socialism, so farming HAS to be collectivized for a society to be considered communist.

The book can be dismissed without any further argument as even some of the people who wrote it -- vehement anti-communists -- think it's garbage propaganda.

>>19518445
Compared with the anti-human mistakes committed by the bourgeoisie in history, such as the launch of capitalism and the imperialist countries, it really is insignificant. The huge number of deaths caused by two world wars and numerous local wars in China before the communists came to power is thousands of times the number of deaths caused by the suppression of counter-revolutionaries by communists. The mistakes by communists should be evaluated objectively and fairly.

>>19520342
>bourgeoisie

Who do you think runs the Communist Party in their respective countries? You can paint them red but they are still the same people. The problem is there is incentive to kill under Communism. If I kill the owner, the Party gains their property.

>>19520232
You posted a picture of a guy who wound up dead in a ditch at the hands of a conservative government that got tired of him and perhaps only became briefly popular as he did because he resembled Tyrone Power from the Zorro movies. Time to leave this silly fascist stuff behind and grow up and put on your big boy pants and embrace scientific socialism, because it's grown-up time.

https://youtu.be/-EnsYMyFP58

>>19518181
>include Nazi soldier deaths
Those are deaths, also, soldiers are brave no matter what the fight for

>>19520372
I posted an ardent Anti-Communist. I'm not against socialism, at all, but Marxism is the bane of human life, progress and society.

I would gladly support a Third Position, with a strong national character.

>>19520364
>Implying the USSR was capitalist

>>19520414
I was not. But the heads of the Party, the Organs and every major organization were almost all upper middle class bourgeoisie. And Jewish. This gradually changed as time marched on and they turned on each other. Another important doctrine of Marxism.

>>19520390
You can support whatever you want, but I am going to make fun of you for supporting the political equivalent of Zorro movies and dressing up like swashbucklers and imaging politics as a heroic quest. This nationalist stuff where people say that they're an "Englishman" or a "Frenchman" or an "American" and that's the extent of their vision is for boys, not men who are comfortable just being a man.

*pulls out sword*

https://youtu.be/lnoh69gEEYw

>>19520441
You did this in the other thread, you referenced Zorro, flung shit and refused to engage on any level.

>>19518181
Not a commie nor do I tend to like commies but all the anti-commie seethe on /lit/ is pathetic. Just ignore them like an adult.

>>19520364
>If I kill the owner, the Party gains their property.
>implying [REDACTED] billionaires isn't based

>>19520472
I do apologize. You must be incensed. In fact, if I were in your shoes I would grab a bottle of champagne and shoot me.

>>19520481
Why do you hate the White race?

>>19520490
Why else?

>>19520490
Hatred doesn't factor into it. I always appreciate people who are good at lying.

>>19520431
>The bourgeoisie in every society, "communist" or capitalist, are Jewish. Communism is no better than capitalism in that regard.

>>19520507
Either you don't associate with European People and you have been conditioned and encouraged to work against your own interests.

Or.

You are not European and merely look simple to Europeans and thus are fostering chaos and factionalism and are following the interests of your own tribe's interests.

>>19520531
If you go back to >>19520232, that is what I argued for.

>>19520536
As an American I promised myself that I would stop interfering in the internal affairs of other countries including European countries.

>>19520553
But as an 'American' you still support a Israel. There is no real care for what happens to Europe so long as the money and support keeps coming for your chosen people.

>>19519758
Notice how that says “Bolshevism” and not communism

>>19518824
His wife said the entire thing was bullshit. We're there Gulags? Yes. Did people die? Yes. Was Solzhenitsyn's account 1:1 with events as he described them? No, most of it was fictionalized. Historians don't consider it a reliable account. Plus, there's Peterson using it in his classroom since 90s...that's a serious red flag.

>>19520232
why not both? communism sucks in theory and in practice.

>>19520576
Israel is just America's spoiled son and the Republican and Democratic parties play the role of mother and stepfather. You know that a mother will prevent a stepfather from punishing "her" son and will even encourage the son to act out and cause a big mess as a way of punishing the stepfather. Israel acting crazy earlier this year right after Biden got elected was a typical example of this dysfunctional relationship. Israel bombing that AP building in Gaza was like the son picking up a vase and smashing it in front of the stepfather who's powerless to do anything about it because the mother won't let him -- so it's a very shameful situation for the United States.

Here's Engels on Carlyle btw

>This is the condition of England, according to Carlyle. An idle landowning aristocracy which “have not yet learned even to sit still and do no mischief", a working aristocracy submerged in Mammonism, who, when they ought to be collectively the leaders of labour, “captains of industry", are just a gang of industrial buccaneers and pirates. A Parliament elected by bribery, a philosophy of simply looking on, of doing nothing, of laissezfaire, a wornout, crumbling religion, a total disappearance of all general human interests, a universal despair of truth and humanity, and in consequence a universal isolation of men in their own “brute individuality", a chaotic, savage confusion of all aspects of life, a war of all against all, a general death of the spirit, a dearth of “soul", that is, of truly human consciousness: a disproportionately strong working class, in intolerable oppression and wretchedness, in furious discontent and rebellion against the old social order, and hence a threatening, irresistibly advancing democracy – everywhere chaos, disorder, anarchy, dissolution of the old ties of society, everywhere intellectual insipidity, frivolity, and debility. – That is the condition of England. Thus far, if we discount a few expressions that have derived from Carlyle’s particular standpoint, we must allow the truth of all he says. He, alone of the “respectable” class, has kept his eyes open at least towards the facts, he has at least correctly apprehended the immediate present, and that is indeed a very great deal for an “educated” Englishman.
https://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/df-jahrbucher/carlyle.htm

>>19520536
>Either you don't associate with the proletariat and you have been conditioned and encouraged to work against your own economic self interest

>or

>You are not proletarian and merely bourgeoisie and thus are fostering chaos and factionalism within the working class of the world pitting race against race to distract from the real enemy (yourself)

>>19520645
Republicans support Israel way more than democrats do.

It’s pretty much a left wing position to be anti Zionist these days.

>>19518428
>Start counting as a percentage of world population and the 16 million indigenous in the Americas in the 16th century through the slave trade, into the industrial age and the world wars and the pandemics that would not have happened but for profiteering, and the body count of neocolonialism of capitalism dwarfs that number.

>every single death that happens in a capitalist country is capitalism's fault, because clearly, everyone would be immortal if capitalism didn't exist

>>19520670
Class is a natural hierarchy from in which society functions. Class collaboration has proven to be far more effective, productive, safer and fruitful than class war.

Race/Ethnicity is a critical component in this. We are more divided by race, biology, than we are by class.

>>19520695
nah, fuck off

>>19520682
The Republicans play the role of the mother. There are a few decent Democrats but the "party" (if you can call it one) are still stuck playing the stepfather in the main.

>>19520695
The history of all hitherto existing society is a history of class struggle. Plebeian and patrician, lord and serf, freeman and slave, in short- oppressor and oppressed, stood in constant opposition to each other.
This is seen throughout all of human history. It’s not by choice either. It is within each classes self interest to oppose the other.

Your idea of class collaborationism is a sweet idea but it has no basis in reality.

>>19520730
It’s not a new story.

Even in the early roman republic (which was not so different to modern day weimerica) you see class struggle. Pleb and patrician relationships were not so different to bourgeoisie proletarian relationships today.

>>19520695
>Class is a natural hierarchy
>cuz money grows on trees
>trees god gave to certain families and not others.

The suppression of the people you think are naturally below others IS THE CLASS WAR

>but we’re divided by biology
DUH. we’re all different people. Get over it
>it’s nature, see? Shut up.

>>19520730
Humans need hierarchy to function. Some people are given to lead, some to follow, a rare few are able to go alone. In Marxism, not only does it deny this, thinking that a flat and horizontal hierarchy (the absence of one) but it then imposes an unjust one in the interim wherein the productive and creative forces are turned out in favor of a class-friendly one.

>>19521173
You're confusing suppression with inability to rise beyond their current level. By all means strong public spending should be encouraged to mitigate it, but the idea that a society can live without the 4 castes is doomed to fail. They are mutually dependent upon each other.

>>19520695
class collaboration does not cross class boundaries
ever

>>19521210
Finland, Japan, Northern Europe and Europe itself before the waves of 3rd world immigration destroyed the philia. There are a great number of countries wherein the nations welfare and that of its people is provided for

>>19521234
>Europe
Intended to suppress class consciousness and has resulted in an increase in poverty, inequality and frequency of austerity measures.

>>19521199
You’re confusing dark skinned people and/or relaxed sorts with mentally and physically challenged people.
The four castes? What are you, Indian? If someone wants to be an artist or something you shouldn’t treat them lesser or greater in any major way. A caste? That locks families in that place. You can’t mean that. ?

>>19521258
>Has nothing to do with the open door immigration policy of wildly unskilled, uncivilized, uneducated filthy masses from the literal arse end of the world wherein rape is seen to cure STD's.

>>19518181
I managed to get this hardcover years ago, and for less than it currently sells for.

>>19521273
No, the expense is rather marginal.

>>19521272
>You’re confusing dark skinned people and/or relaxed sorts with mentally and physically challenged people.

Not everybody can rise above entry level, in a world that is increasingly technological more and more will fail to keep pace with the rapid increase in further technological innovation. Dark skinned people and mentally and physically challenged people don't enter in to this, but when they do, they typically are well out performed by the average European or Oriental Asian.

>The four castes? What are you, Indian? If someone wants to be an artist or something you shouldn’t treat them lesser or greater in any major way. A caste?

It's not a set in stone and of course there is fluidity between them all, but they are the four corners used to support a civilization traditionally without any one the civilization descends in to anarchy and then death. They are leaders, warrior, professionals and laborers. You should be given all opportunity to go beyond but just as there is nobility in being a soldier there can be found in an honest days work.

The honest laborer is held in contempt nowadays, that's why you have Marxism riding high. Despite being for the working man, you hold him, his ways and all in contempt. Orwell was right.

>>19518335
>undeniable
Commies sure seem keen on either denying or flat out ignoring

>>19521346
We deny falsehoods, yes.

commies dindu nuffin

>>19521234
Do you think class struggle was non existent before then?

You realize socialism is an industrial revolution era ideology?

>>19521234
Class struggle has literally existed since before Christ.

Wtf are you talking about?

>>19521322
> The honest laborer is held in contempt nowadays, that's why you have Marxism riding high
Socialism is not some new age idea. Literally read the first sentence of the communist manifesto. Plebeian and Patrician yada yada yada. You seem to think that the classes were all good buddies and collaborated just fine back in the day.

>Orwell was right.
Orwell was a socialist.

You’re probably going to try and debate this, but you’d be wrong.

>>19521600
>Orwell was right.
>Orwell was a socialist.

Yes, he was. Read Road to Wigan Pier. You're a textbook example of what he describes.

>>19521572
You seem to be ignoring key parts where I say clearly I am for socialism just not the Marxism variant.

>>19521572
You would be wrong in thinking it came around then it is ancient.

>>19518393
sounds based

>>19521752
What type of socialism are you for?

> You would be wrong in thinking it came around then
Yes the idea of a property less society is thousands of years old

>>19521752
>Yes, he was. Read Road to Wigan Pier.
He might have been in Wigar Pier and Catalonia.

But read Penguin Collected & Lion and Unicorn.

>>19521514
Normally lit likes to read source material. Not so when anon discusses contemporary and socialist history

>>19518428
Capitalism has a better chain of production and supply. This is why it prevailed over socialism. This is high school knowledge btw.

>>19518332
You just proved anons point from you posting a basedjack meme, dumbass

>>19521896
>This is high school knowledge btw.
Yes it is.

Maybe try reading scholarly accounts instead. Sheila Fitzpatrick and Andrle will be a good start, cuntface.

>>19521879
Victor Serge would also be useful here.

Does anyone in here arguing about this book actually have a copy?

>>19521955
Yes. I had to read it due to a dispute and ethics violation. Courtois used deceit to fool authors into contributing, most notably with Werth. Courtois' thinking is disordered. Some of the chapters are interesting, most particularly Werth's. I don't like Werth but he's a scholar, unlike Courtois.

reminder that massacring millions of innocents is only ok when the CIA funds it. every man, woman and child who resists the tyranny of international finance deserves to be killed in the most painful and dehumanizing ways possible

yes i am a proud capitalist. yes this is what i literally believe.

>>19521879
Butters, what would you say are your top 10 books?

>>19521896
>basic economics
Too busy reading advanced economics to care about lolbert shit

>>19521896
>this is high school level knowledge btw
We know

>>19518478
The debunking is the Soviet archives.

90% of people served less than 5 years in the gulags. They weren't an archipelago or even particularly carceral. People in the gulags had access to neighboring towns and work outside the camp if they wanted it.

Death rate in gulags was only high during the second world war because of resource constraints.

Gulag prison population was even less as a percentage of the population than modern American prison system.

Arch Getty (US historian) blew the lid off this garbage ages ago.

>>19518705
The answer is yes he did.

>>19519302
Sars-Cov 2 was made by Ralph Baric at the University of North Carolina Chapel Hill.

>>19518332
kek

>>19520685
Capitalist enjoyers do the exact same thing but about communism. This is just constant back and forth, you're all retarded.

Man, these same old threads and debates are all so tiring; I just hate materialism, money, work, production...

>>19518972
Actual good post ITT

>>19520115
Yes, from /pol/.