/lit/ - Literature

>>19185523
Seems like a based guy

>>19185523
sounds great, better than killing a baby just because they're non-bio-normative. disabled lives matter.

https://youtu.be/vtS91Jd5mac

>>19185549
this dude has class, insight, wisdom, and speaks truths.

>>19185549
the fact that this man has to plead to a community that his life has value shows how far we have lost our way...

>>19185564
nah, disagree. Not with the man, with the "lost our way" part.

>>19185602
I don't know who to reconcile my Catholicism with my eugenicist beliefs.

>>19185523
Maybe the literature of anti-abortion is his thesis topic.

>>19185564
Nice troll m8, 4chan ain’t different from YouTube

>>19185523
Is it so really bad that someone exists who has traditional views on abortion and our responsibilities to others that you need to post a pepe picture here?

if they really wanna spend their time and energy on someone with down syndrome, who cares.

I too am I traditional catholic fellow /lit/ posters

>>19185523
im a fag cath

>>19185523
Guess he’s accounting for his shitty genome.

How many pro-lifers would wish they could abort if their wife got raped by a black guy and got pregnant? Should you both be forced to stare into the eyes of a rapist daily, or should you doom him even further by giving him to the state?

>>19185719
"man this hypothetical sure would suck"
"better let women kill their children on demand"

>>19185733
>on demand

>>19185523
In most cases, abortion is unethical. There are 3 exceptions.
1. If the baby suffers from some extreme birth defect. If it has no chance of living a normal life because of its disabilities, then the kind thing to do is to kill it.
2. Rape. An eye for an eye. The woman has the right to kill her rapist’s child.
3. Mother’s life is in danger. If the mother’s life is endangered by the pregnancy, she has the right to save herself.

murder him anon

>>19185549
1 downie is happy with his life. Ok bro, totally justifies making a mentally handicapped person live 50 years as a freak. They should be aborted before conscious and the parents who bring them to term should be jailed. A psychopath is shamed for the torture and death of their victims. Is a life as a downie not torture (or rather immense suffering) and does it not inevitably lead to death? What's the justification here for the free pass for parents? Is it that the pain inflicted by the psychopath is acute and that of the parents prolonged? That just seems to make it worse.

>>19185775
why is it unethical?

>>19185775
fun fact
If a woman knows she'll die and she does it anyway because faith and not wanting to kill the kid, the Catholic Church says she's a martyr in heaven.

>>19185820
It is murder. Now, murder can also be justified (revenge, or because it’s being done as medical euthanasia, etc.) but most of the time it’s immoral. It’s the same with abortion.

As for legalizing abortion? I think I’d legalize it all the way up to birth. Why? There are going to be cases where something goes wrong with the baby or mother very late in the pregnancy, and rather than screw these people over it’s best to not put a time limit.

>>19185820
Because it is murder.
>>19185775
An eye for an eye is barbaric.

>>19185752
>on demand

>>19185536
The disabled should be burned, they’re bodies used as fuel for a society that gets along better without them.

>>19185847
>>19185851
What makes murder unethical?

>>19185839
And she should be, that’s a very noble thing to do. But if a woman wants to live she should have the right to end her pregnancy and live. It’s a tough situation and I don’t think others have the right to force her to live or die.

>>19185855
is getting rid of a fetus without a hearbeat the same as killing a baby even if it isnt alive?

>>19185809
>Ok bro, totally justifies making a mentally handicapped person live 50 years as a freak.
People are reading
https://www.amazon.com/Anti-Oedipus-Capitalism-Schizophrenia-Penguin-Classics/dp/0143105825

>>19185866
If you do not believe in God, nothing intrinsically.
Although in general one could say that civilization, by freeing man from the most pressing necessities and perils of nature (among which is having to constantly worry that someone or something will kill you) and allowing him thus to dedicate himself to higher things, is quite an agreeable arrangement and very much worth preserving.

>>19185899
No but killing animals isn't the same either and yet a great many people would defend the position that we are morally prohibited from killing animals. Equally we can argue that a woman has some moral responsibility for the child developing in her womb

>>19185654
Just sin and repent, brother.

>>19185904
Yeah, but the people involved are all agreeing on aborting the fetus, and the fetus has no mind to feel either way about it.

>>19185885
different post

>>19185839
>husband pacing outside the delivery room
>doctor comes out
>tells him his wife is dead
>hands him a cabbage patch kid
good luck finding a replacement wife who'll take on that burden

>>19185885
>edit no.2
OMG THANKS FOR REDDIT GOLD
evil bitch will kill her child and then talk about it, odysseus was right

why are trads so insistent that braindead leftist women raise children

>>19185899
Why is having a heartbeat a relevant factor? It's not like it wasn't alive before the heartbeat.

>>19185523
There is no greater hubris and pride than keeping alive that which God clearly did not intend to live.

>>19185523
does he have kids?

>>19185899
A foetus is biologically alive and, having its own DNA, a human being separate from either its parents. Drawing an arbitrary line in the developement of a human before which it is somehow ethical to kill him is indefensible; the only such line that can be defended is that before which the being is not human, that is conception.

>>19185922
They can give up their children for adoption if they like.

>>19185885
>>19185912
This is awful to read (if real). It really hurts to know that such shitty "people" get to lead lives of comfort and privilege in the first-world.

>>19185523
I did the math and abortion is indeed murder but I don't give a fuck if some stupid woman kills her offspring. In fact, it's an improvement. And all this shit about muh clump of cells is just to dehumanize them and make aborting women feel better. I'm pro-abortion for all the wrong reasons.

>>19185885
>>19185912
If I remember right both posts are from /r/childfree

>>19185946
Isn't it wild that liberal would-be mothers would rather murder their child than let it be raised in a Godly home.

>>19185957
First one might be troll, but not the 1.9K upboats

>>19185911
Infants and the comatose are equally incapable of taking decisions and snuffing them can be just as expedite and painless; we choose not to do it because we know that they will or may develop into men much like ourselves: I do not see why we should treat foeti any different.

>>19185941
>>19185945
sperm is biologically alive. Is wearing a condom murder?
>>19185906
>killing animals
these animals are alive at the time im guessing?

we do discuss books here... dont we? Who else likes 2 years before the mast?

>>19185983
A sperm is not a human. A sperm combined with an egg makes a human.

a fetus isnt an human being and if you believe it is you are retarded and should have been aborted

>>19185885
>seething trad retard exposes himself as a reddit and phoneposter

>>19185988
>a sperm is not a human
so a mass of unliving tissue without a heartbeat that will form a human is a human in your eyes, but sperms are not?

>>19185983
A foetus is not just alive it has its own DNA.
>>19185989
Where is the line between clump of cells and human?

>>19186000
>Where is the line between clump of cells and human?
language

>>19186000
Are you under the impression that sperms are the exact dna of the father and that they arent unique in many ways?

>>19185998
It's a human. Shouldn't be killed just because he's young.

>>19185989
>an human being
Nurses, strap him to the chair.

>>19185945
You can keep a cell culture from anyone alive for several months in a petri dish. It is biologically alive and has its own DNA (doesn't matter it's your DNA, DNA can be shared between several living organisms, see twins).
That does not make my cell culture in a petri dish a human.
You need to think harder about your terms.

>>19185809
The moment you make this argument you negate life itself because who are you to arbitrarily decide where the line is drawn? Literally everyone will suffer immensely in their life sooner or later.

>>19186013
>a lump of tissue is a human
more like potential humans just like sperms

>>19186006
Does being an infant or having aphasia make you a lump of cells?
>>19186010
No, but a foetus has a fully functional human genetic code, which makes him different from any other human and will identify him forever.

>>19186019
Sometime ago you were like him. But you were never just a sperm or an egg. You were a combination because, as it happens, it's this combination that makes a human being. Sperm or eggs alone don't.

>>19186014
let me go! let me go! Ima kill all of yous!

>>19185523
Sound like a cringe guy

>>19186014
lol

>>19186029
>infant
no
>aphasia
yes

>>19186033
>Sometime ago you were like him
what, having no heart or brain function? Yes, i will be like him again when i die.

>>19186029
>not alive yet
>functioning

Aren't we all just a "clump of cells"?

>>19185526
>>19185536
>>19185549
>>19185554
>>19185564
Kek

Abortion arguments are always so stupid. They always try to focus on the ethics of the situation, the science, or worse bring religion into it. Nobody finds these arguments effective. They're not practical, they don't solve any problems. People either look too far upstream or too far downstream.
The real reason you should be against abortion is right here >>19185855
Abortion is a get out of jail free card. It reinforces in people the idea that there is no consequences for their actions, that they will never have to take responsibility for their poor life decisions. It's simply not a healthy mindset for society to cultivate and the only way to solve it is to enforce those consequences and force people to think critically and behave more cautiously.

>>19186047
But you were already alive and you were already a human in his youngest state. That's the opposite of being dead.

>>19185523
You're dealing with a sadist

>>19186054
>already alive
>no functioning heart or brain
I'm not falling for your bait anymore

>>19186053
holy BASED

>>19185885
Do you see? She didn't type "child" even once, instead she calls it a parasite, a demon. They won't tell you I'm waiting to abort my child, lol. The dehumanisation process to not feel guilty for murdering your own child.

>>19186065
Yes, you were alive. Humans don't just magically develop. Men aren't born with thick beards, speaking English already.

>>19186067
imagine falling for screenshots on 4chan

>>19186044
Infants cannot talk.
>>19186047
>not alive yet
>functioning
?

>>19186033
it's just a tautology. "a human is a human once the sperm meets the egg, because the meeting of the sperm and the egg is what makes a human." it's totally arbitrary and you will convince nobody who doesn't already agree. it's just as easy to say the moment of separation from the mother is the start of a human, or the first word, or sixth grade. or, in the other direction, the production of the sperm and egg.

>visit girl's apartment
>She has no books

>>19186079
>Infants cannot talk.
they still have language

>>19185809
Did you not listen to the speech? A Harvard study found that people with Down’s are happier than the population at large. Ignorance is bliss. The only argument for pre-natal screening is one of eugenics, which involves dismissing the intrinsic value of life.

>>19186093
They need to learn it, they do not magically "have" it as soon as they come out of the vagina; and when the do learn it and start to speak, they stop being infants.

>>19185523
>the joys" of raising kids with serious birth defects
to be fair, I've never met a downie who is a dick. it's only really a problem if you're the kind of person who wants your kids to bury you.

>>19186082
All the other things you mention are arbitrary. But conception is an actual biological process. There's no birth without conception. That's literally where a human is created.

>>19186109
Oddly enough downie chicks tend to be more aggressive than the boys, in my experience. When I was little a townie chick attacked me inside a supermarket.

>>19186053
>Setting broken bones is a get out of jail free card. It reinforces in people the idea that there is no consequences for their actions, that they will never have to take responsibility for their poor life decisions. It's simply not a healthy mindset for society to cultivate and the only way to solve it is to enforce those consequences and force people to think critically and behave more cautiously.
you pretend like you're above it but the only reason you consider abortion different that the other 10000 medical procedures that often serve to help with bad life decisions and lifestyles (stomach-pumpings and rehabs and liposuctions and liver transplants and tattoo removals and so on) is because of some emotional fixation you have on babies and childbirth. why aren't you campaigning to stop people who drove drunk and got in a crash from getting taken to the icu? it's obviously socially unhealthy to not let them bleed on the asphalt

>>19186119
>whataboutism
cringe

If you use sperm for anything other than insemination you're a murderer. Think of all the children.

>>19186112
Birth is a biological process.

>>19186128
Conception is what makes a human.

>>19186132
Which never takes place without conception.

>>19186104
Whoa there, anon. What exactly are you trying to argue? The structural components for speech capacity are already present. Think about what you're arguing. There are very clear developmental markers.

>>19186134
Early modern human or anatomically modern human are terms used to distinguish Homo sapiens that are anatomically consistent with the range of phenotypes seen in contemporary humans from extinct archaic human species. Wikipedia

>>19186015
The point about DNA was that a foetus is very clearly a different being therefore neither parent can trump on its right to live.
>>19186140
And are they absent when the child is still within his mother?

>>19186134
you dont... believe in souls do you?

>>19186115
Hm, I guess the only downie chick I knew long enough to really judge was only into hugging her teddy and hovering three foot away from whatever was going on. Maybe the teddy stopped her from spazzing out but I hope nobody ever tested that.
It could just be that one kid, because I've met polite downie chicks but that was like brief two minutes conversations. Most people don't reveal they're a dick in that space of time.

>>19186112
my balls making cum is also an "actual biological process" without which "there is no birth". so is the actual mechanical expulsion of the baby. you have not explained the difference, you're just pointing to one arbitrarily chosen moment in the middle of the process and insisting it has some magical significance. it really doesn't, it's all in your head.

>>19186149
how is life as a retard anon?

>>19186155
Awful, i should have been aborted.

>>19186160
since abortion is simply murder you can still do that, just take regular strolls in black neighbourhoods until lit happens
good luck anon!

>>19186166
Kek but how can you murder something that isnt alive yet?

>>19186154
It's not arbitrary at all. It's literally what makes human being. Eggs alone and sperm alone don't make a human being.

>>19186127
you have no answer lol. femoids are right for once, you've just decided society needs to go hard on one particular medical indulgence of thousands and it just so happens it's the one that will never apply to you.

>>19186179
>Kek but how can you murder something that isnt alive yet?
you can't
any other stupid questions?

>>19186185
what is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?

>>19186190
South at a clip in this weather

>>19186180
and egg+sperm alone do not make a human, it needs a womb to carry it for nine months. therefore it is the egg+sperm+9 months in a womb that "literally make" a human. see?

>>19186190
>the retard brings the tired unfunny jokes as he attempt to escape the contemplation of his own stupidity
how trite

>>19186154
The difference is that upon conception you get your genome, there is no other biological event of similiar relevance in determining who you will be.

>>19186119
Yes all of these are different things just like abortion and should all be treated in different ways. Does that seem so unreasonable to you?
So you're saying we should treat them all in a uniform blanketed way for no reason
Do you think that we should save people from dying in a drunk driving accident and then just not punish them for their actions afterwards? I mean we don't punish people in every instance we save their lives so I guess we can't do it for drunk drivers either right? Because clearly it's the exact same as all of those other situations

>>19186206
>trite
lmao

>>19185733
>let's punish an innocent for the crime he didn't commit

>>19186217
yeah... you are upset, but i got that a while ago

>>19186218
>btw i'm against the death penalty teehee
live laugh love

>>19186119
Most of these keep an actually alive person alive however and kind of loops back around to the is the fetus actually "alive" argument, so if you think its straight up murder its not as comparable.
(Many of these usually have a kind of punishment as a consequence in addition to many of these too)

>>19186212
nigger what happens during those 9 months in the womb will absolutely determine who you will be, from an adonis to a mutant freak with no limbs. your mother's hormonal situation determines your future body, she can literally turn you into a monster by swallowing the wrong kind of diet pill and you think your time in the womb is not a "biological event of relevance"?

by your own logic if my balls making sperm is not the start of a human because sperm does not "make humans" alone then the acquisition of a genome cannot be the beginning of a human because a "genome" alone does not make a human, the actual development of the fetus is absolutely decisive to what you will be.

>>19186215
>Do you think that we should save people from dying in a drunk driving accident and then just not punish them for their actions afterwards?
you're mixing everything up. we punish drunk drivers for breaking the law, we don't refuse them medical procedures on the grounds that they need to be taught a lesson, which is what you're proposing for unwanted pregnancies. in none of those other cases is refusal of medical care used punitively. do you actually propose punitive refusal of liver treatments for drinkers to "enforce the consequences" of partying too hard or don't you? or is it just wombs that matter?

>>19186250
the ethics of terminating a fetus have been already rejected as irrelevant by the post i was responding to.

>>19186220
Ok chud.

>>19186252
So will what school you go to, but never to the same extent as what your DNA codifies. After conception we have a separate being with traits that he will carry with him to the grave, before we have just two cells bearing the genetic informations of a male and a female. What is there that we could call a human before conception? Where could we draw a reasonable line between human and non human after it occurs?

>>19186298
I'm not mixing anything up
Again you're blanketing "medical care" as if it should all be treated as the same thing
A majority of the time abortions aren't done to save anybody's life quite the opposite they're literally done to avoid someone being born
Abortions are by and large a completely optional procedure and yes I do think the medical system should have every right to refuse such procedures same as liposuction or plastic surgery etc...
This isn't even to get into the cost and availability of all these things in different places which complicates the matter even more

>>19186315
>as what your DNA codifies
>After conception we have ... traits that he will carry with him to the grave
dude, your dna literally changes in the womb. pairs of identical twins still have divergent genomes because of mutations occurring during the pregnancy. your whole big claim was "conception creates a human because you get your genome" but you don't actually even get your final genome at the moment of conception. you're both philosophically a big dummy that can't understand reproduction doesn't have a "start" and factually wrong about the mechanics of the thing.

>What is there that we could call a human before conception?
there is nothing we could call a human for a long time after conception either

>Where could we draw a reasonable line between human and non human after it occurs?
the birth, like we always have.

>>19186298
Not him but if you're an alcoholic you do get kicked down liver transplantation lists here. There are other things as well that can kick you lower down transplant lists, like if you have an eating disorder and fucked up your heart, or a smoker who needs a lung transplant. The medical procedure isn't worth doing for someone who cannot take care of themselves afterwards. That's also why a lot of weight loss surgeons insist the patient show they can control their diet, because otherwise they will rupture themselves.
Also, drunk people bleed out faster. If you have two people bleeding out, and the resources to only save one, you save the one with the best chance of survival. Triage is a thing, and where deaths are inevitable you do what saves the most people, or you lose more people trying to save everyone.
Even where there is no moral blame to the actions which gives you the medical consequence, most ITUs don't accept certain patients because dedicating that amount of resources to someone who is over 80 is not worthwhile. Especially not when you need those resources to save people who have had much shorter lives.

On a side note, one disgusting misunderstanding of that kind of triage saw a lot of doctors sign dnrs for developmentally delayed patients without notifying the patient or the family because of COVID. That's improper triage the same way that signing dnrs without consent for black patients because black people have unenviable lives in your estimation. Or sterilising native and immigrant populations without informed consent because you think that their children will make the world a worse place. Patient choice drives most of the ethically sound triage scenarios for transplants above, so the patient is aware they are making choices which are self destructive and doctors won't waste an organ on that unless you make choices that indicate you do want a transplant to work. For abortions, there is a good argument that women who see abortion as convenient are in the same level of not understanding the procedure well enough to consent meaningfully as people who think a lap band will allow them to eat everything and not get fat.

At what point does the fetus/baby have a soul?

>>19186373
>the birth, like we always have
When have we ever considered birth as being that line? There are strict limits as to when an abortion can be performed and you cannot perform one right before birth just because the child has not come out yet and is therefore somehow not human.
DNA has the possibility to change every time it duplicates and it does so during the course of all your life not just in the womb, it remains however recognisable, which is why it is useful in identifying people. Since people constantly change before and after birth, it is impossible to draw this reasonable line at any point that is not the one before which we clearly have nothing that we could call a human.

>>19186446
Conception.

>>19186497
where is the soul before conception? Does it exist?

>/pol/ thread on /lit/

based jannies shitting up the board for free

>>19186504
Depends who you ask, most christians say it doesn't exist.

>>19186519
you better stop with your lies or i'll turn this shit into a spiderman thread

>>19186508
what is your opinion on the book Two years Before The Mast?

>>19185978
That's not why we don't do it though. That's just some retarded bullshit pseudoargument. The reason we don't kill infants, is because at that point there is no reason to, since it's already born. You can just send it to an orphanage and forget about it.

>>19186508
>says another pointless tr*pfag shitting up the board with inane or completely idiotic "opinions"

>>19186531
never read it

>>19186612
Now i'm not saying you do this, but this board seems to be for circle jerking the same books/authors over and over, and also for off-topic posts. It's a lot like /tv/ minus the cunny posting and slower.

>>19186596
There clearly is a reason since plenty of people kill infants, moreover the same is true for people in comas or in any situation where they cannot reason or feel and all others involved decide to kill them.

>>19186655
People kill infants because they werent ready to be parents. Recently in the papers locally 3 sets of parents murdered their babies within 24 hours of each other. Shit like the child wont stop crying so they beat em to death.

>>19185523
I'm against abortion for many reasons and one of them is that Shlomo co. wins. Abortion is the easiest and cheapest solution for corporations and governments. The government doesn't have to invest in education and financial aid. Corporations don't have to give paternity/maternity leave, don't have to open nurseries and if their employees don't have children they can focus on wageslaving. Abortion is a win-win for the kikes in charge of running the country.

>>19186677
Many also abort because they were not ready to be parents: if we allow one, why should we forbid the other?

>>19186691
>one scenario the child is alive, has a functioning brain
>the other is a lump of tissue. I dont believe in abortion later in pregnancy, just the very beginning before consciousness.

>>19186704
>lump of tissue
Nice cope. You're still killing a human. It's alright. Murder is okay in certain circumstances. Just quit the faggotry.

>>19186712
You murder living things every time you jerk off lmao why do you think catholics are against condoms? By wearing it you are stopping life from entering this world.

>>19186732
A human being is different than simply a living thing. Either way, murder is alright and I don't give a shit about condoms or Catholics. I just don't like this faggotry of not accepting abortion is murder which is alright because murder is based.

>>19186704
In terms of consciousness, newborns have less than plenty of other mammals. There are also many ailments that can momentarily deprive one of his consciousness; since being a foetus is also a momentary stage in developement, why do we allow the killing of one but not the other?

So if I had super powers to kill zygotes in women and used it all the time, then that would be okay? It's just a lump of cells after all.

>>19186757
One is a human in his first stages of development, the other is a lesser beast.

>>19186782
You could also kill adults. We're all just worthless lumps of cells after all.

>>19186788
Yes, and people would call that murder.

>>19186783
A foetus is just a human at an even earlier stage of developement. Also, the question was about the comatose or ill.

>>19185775
Also:
4. The woman doesn't want to have a baby.

>>19186732
Catholics are against condoms when it prevents life and provides no health benefit. Basically since the 60s the main line is a) birth control hormones only for health conditions; b) no abortion, abortion is communist; then recently it was also clarified that barrier methods which are to prevent disease transmission are also allowed under the preservation of health and life exception.
It doesn't always come across that way, but Catholics have a duty to be healthy. If you fuck someone you don't know the std status of, not only are you probably being dishonest by omission and also having sex outside marriage, you're also opening yourself up to potentially fatal diseases and that's a kind of suicide. People pick and choose the parts of that worldview which best translate to the outside world, but the duty to make your life healthy is behind a lot of stuff in Catholicism. There's also a duty to know the likely consequences of your actions once you've been confirmed so you have to be really ignorant to get a pass on abortion or diseases from ignorance of the consequences. Which means that basically the only condom situation where you're not already to blame for lots of things is sex trafficked prositutes, or married to an AIDS victim, because those are seen as situations where you're actually beholden to other people's choices and not just freely choosing to sin.

>>19187083
Isn't that covered under rape?

>>19185523
we unironically need to go back to abandoning retarded babies on rubbish heaps. The spartans knew what they were doing.

>>19186790
Abortion is also murder. Murder is based.

>>19185809
downers are actually based tho.

>>19187492
Yeah the greeks are doing great lol

>>19185523
>raising kids with serious birth defects
haha I'll keep my eugenics thanks :3
Down with the retards!

>>19187273
>Catholics
You can't really lump every catholic under one label like that. The Pope is openly supporting homosexualy, pro-migrant and is even entertaining transexuality, which of course the vast majority of devote Catholics will never accept.

>>19185809
Life itself is a torture, everyone suffers. That's not a valid reason to kill babies. No matter how bad it can get, there are always going to be enjoyable moments. It shouldn't be your choice to take it away from people.

>>19187083
Then she shouldn't have had sex

>>19185775
Good job, now 90% of the women will claim that they're getting an abortion because they were raped

>>19187571
... that's how Catholicism works. If you're at odds with the Church you can still hope for God's grace, but to not be excommunicated, yeah you have to follow the rules. If the Church wants to enforce anything they can just ask your opinion before communion and refuse you until you recant and repent. Usually what happens is a local parish or diocese excommunicates someone for shit that isn't really against Church doctrine, so they can still attend other parishes in good faith, but if the Church wanted to push any of those into legitimacy, or even if they wanted to die on the hill of Church above all nations, they can enforce it.
They're not doing that though because as the differences between parishes and diocese above illustrates, it's a pretty liberal set up. There's a difference between support and endorsement.
When they're not being liberal about things (like when they issued the letter on birth control and abortion) they can run a campaign which will topple the government. It's not often used but the immense political strength of the RCC lies in the fact that one Sunday the archbishop can send a sermon to every church where the priest announces "you stop supporting X by next Sunday or you will be choosing to burn for all eternity and turn from God". When it does those speeches in an area it usually means the prevailing social norm will have change by the next week and the government will have changed within the year.

>>19185809
You have a very tender heart, anon.

However, as someone once pointed out: "When tenderness is detached from the source of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror. It ends in forced-labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chamber."

Oh, I might as well quote the whole thing:
>One of the tendencies of our age is to use the suffering of children to discredit the goodness of God, and once you have discredited his goodness, you are done with him. . . . Busy cutting down human imperfection, they are making headway also on the raw material of good.

>Ivan Karamazov cannot believe, as long as one child is in torment; Camus’ hero cannot accept the divinity of Christ, because of the massacre of the innocents.

>In this popular pity, we mark our gain in sensibility and our loss in vision. If other ages felt less, they saw more, even though they saw with the blind, prophetical, unsentimental eye of acceptance, which is to say, of faith. In the absence of this faith now, we govern by tenderness.

>It is a tenderness which, long since cut off from the person of Christ, is wrapped in theory.

>When tenderness is detached from the source of tenderness, its logical outcome is terror. It ends in forced labor camps and in the fumes of the gas chamber.
-F. O’Connor, Introduction to “A Memoir of Mary Ann” (in Mystery and Manners, 1957)

>>19186119
>setting bones
>killing a fetus
>repair and destruction are the same actually
a fetus is not an injury, you evil cretin

>>19186626
Tv is way more fun than lit desu

>>19186101
What about the people who have to look after them every moment to make sure they don't kill themselves taking a shit

>>19185775
Brainlet tier. There is no circumstance where crimes done to another--in this instance what you have admitted is a baby--is ethical based on the sins of the father.

Half of the people on this site are autistic freaks who would have gotten the blender if they were conceived in the current moral climate.

>>19188337
>father is in debt
>dies
>debt transfers to next of kin
sons inherit from their fathers
cope

>>19188430
The shortcomings and failures of one man is a punishment to himself. An indebted father passing his debt unto his children is how things work at present, but that doesn't make it ethical.

>>19188337
Isn't that how original sin works for Christians? That's what they're trying to wash off with the baptism thing isn't it?

>>19185989
>a fetus isnt an human being

It will be unless you kill him/her.

You're literally performing a pre-meditated action, which results directly in removing the remaining years of a human life from history.

A human fetus already in the process of growing into a full human is not currently "conscious", that's about all you can say. about it. You could fall unconscious at any time, does that enable others to kill you?

>>19186000
>Where is the line between clump of cells and human

The experience of emotions.

>>19185885
I'm for abortion, but this is fucking weird

>>19186446
Sentience.

>>19185809
Man downies eat, color, and watch WWE all day and love it. I would say it's not torture since their soul has been blessed with a mind that almost can't perceive suffering

>>19185523
>t. A guy turning to Christianity as a way to cope with his child's crippling disability
"just take up your cross and bear it bro"

>people caring whether abortion is murder when they murder animals with more sentience than a fetus every day for food
ngmi

>>19188977
Best post in this thread.

>>19185549
Powerful

>>19188977
This who cares what a bunch of failure retards do with their slave offspring

>>19185523
>No you HAVE to love those unloving bioleninist retards fatsos and envious lunatics who swear to kill you
>you just HAVE TO OKAY?
>also allow your women to mix with them too! Love is love!
Some alphas just want to be at the top even if it means getting buttfucked by everyone. I'd rather lone wolf unnoticed rebellion sigma septrillionaire yap stone quechua knot quintillionaire grind set.

>>19188977
>white people caring murder is wrong when a defacto army of savages intend on murdering white people
>when savages have nothing wrong with murdering whites and have proven to have learning disabilities, genetic psychopathic traits, no altruism, no high trust, and blind alleigance to NGOs
Sheesh I just want to take tenant money to grill and stop BLACK babies from being aborted and go to Church.

>>19189142
white people aren't special and you're a faggot

>>19186678
I used to think there was some Eugenic element to legalizing abortion. Libs admitted that liberal abortion law lowered crime rates. However I met women who had abortions. These women did not ever cognize that they had been duped by a horny man refusing fatherhood, or that they deliberately chose one lifestyle over another in willful murder, or that the media had forced their influence beyond conscionable bounds. No. They were forever completely permanently psychologically broken beyond any deliberate articulation of any sort short of barking panic stricken knee jerk speech patterns 24/7 all contexts and circumstances. At best they would smoke a cigarette and lucidly blithely rant like a Sylvia Plath poem.

>>19189152
You're homophobic
Good night
Dont let the homosexuals bite

>>19189195
you're not special for being gay either
enjoy shitting in diapers for the rest of your life

>>19185719
>Not just killing it post-natally the trad way, through exposure to the elements on a hilltop
Ngtmi

>>19188502
>you could fall unconscious at any time does that enable others to kill you?
Wow you driveshare a Tesla? Wow it scans your VAXPASS everytime you want to access city business? Wow. I heard about a car accident with those self driving cars. Good thing only White Supremacists died in those accidents. Could you imagine if one of George Floyd's family members got hurt in one of those accidents? Dear God! Thank God! Well at least we're still all Christian. My son is going to graduate 4th grade and it's only his third time being held back in public school. Good thing Biden added 10 more years to get a high school diploma!

>>>/d/9850986
>>>/d/9851404
>>>/d/9854213
>>>/d/9925964
Hot af!

>>19189219
>Does that enable others to kill you?
Yes and it grants them good optics while doing it

>>19185523
>>19185681
>I'm pro choice
>Okay, I will make the choice you don't like
>NOOOOOOOOOOO, NOT LIKE THAT

>>19185963
The problem is the woman doesn't "kill" her offspring. She detonates a corpse despair bomb of permanently neurologically rewiring synapses that make her a jaded resentful unhinged burnout for the rest of her life.

>>19189257
Worse she's convinced she didn't kill anything so she denies the experience altogether and after that can never will herself out of her lost mind

>>19189273
Theres a difference between mindfully physically experiencing the direct killing of a victim and letting that victim die inside your own bloodstream while indoctrinated in insensate delusions.

>>19189201
Im not gay. Im coyly responding to you with the same blithe dishonesty you deliberately missed the point with. My point illustrates the double standards at play. Yours conceals information. Mine reveals. I'm not even white. But I know you hate whites because you want to conceal this double standard. You're not a clapping seal like the other Anons in this thread posting cliches impressed on them at church or some equivalent institution. You're evil.

>>19185809
Dude everybody suffers. May as well just become an anti natalist

>>19185902
>Western society's innate herd instinct has allowed the government, the media, and even the principles of economics to take advantage of each person's unwillingness to be cut off from the group. What's more, those who suffer from mental disorders may not be insane, but could be individuals in the purest sense, because they are by nature isolated from society.
Ngl sounds really based.

>>19185549
He's accomplished more than I ever will.

>>19185654
You literally can't

>>19185719
Just dont let niggers in your society and you wont have this dilemma

>>19185775
>3. Mother’s life is in danger. If the mother’s life is endangered by the pregnancy, she has the right to save herself.
It's a mothers obligation and duty to die for her child

>>19186205
The womb keeps it alive until it can physically separate from the mother. Its just a living thing dependent on another living thing

>>19186504
The potential form is actualized upon conception. Get aristotle pilled

>>19185733
Better yet let women kill the economy on command!
Only sexists will lose their jobs!
WE'RE SAVING LIVES!
OH SHUT UP ABOUT YOUR LIVELIHOOD

>>19187083
Everyone knows sex results in pregnancy. She assented to it and therefore chose the pregnancy. No backsies.

>>19188320
Are you posting in /hor/? Its the best place to post all year

>>19185523
GR15 FOR PEPESHIT

>>19185523
i would never let a girl visit my apartment nor let her see my tard worship literature collection

Words, semantics, ego, and little pet lines in the sand. No heart in this thread

The 'scientific' arguments for the pro-life position are sophistic. It only really makes sense to be against abortion if you hold the metaphysical belief that the foetus is ensouled at conception. There's no consciousness, no conceivable personhood otherwise.

>>19185654
Ask yourself the reason for your belief in each of your contradicting values to determine which is more true to you. Christianity can’t really be reconciled with eugenics, even racism is tricky to justify under Christianity but abortive eugenics or euthanistic eugenics can’t be justified under it.

>>19188977
Not only that, some animals that we eat are quantitatively more intelligent than the mentally disabled, along with some other groups of humans in our society.

>>19188954
>>19185654
I want to effort post but Im short on time and cant find the exact quote I want to wow you with so heres my best paraphrase to heritage. From the Poetic Edda:
Sigurd the Dragonslayer of old Icelandic lore said to the dragon Fafnir, "I was born without father and not of woman. My name is Clever Beast"
There are many similarities of pagan heroes and Gods to Christ.
European men have always been Christlike. Hebrew men have always been like the Pharisee Christ killers. The men of the Old Testament were truly just like the Pharisees in the time of Christ. There is a distinct inconstitency handwaved away where the Pharisees ask Christ if he is to nullify Old Testament law. Christ assures them "not one iota" will change from the law. Catholics are new robes and habits for an Old Testament against the genetic character of Sigurd and Christ the symbolic slayers of evil. Anyways hope you enjoyed your daily dose of internet guy doing his damned best at insulting your most emotionally invested beliefs.
>>19185922
Because they're subverted and have internalized the commands of their oppressors. There's no greater honor than being a paypig piñata martyr to ungrateful swine.

>>19189550
Thats more reason to kill the competition.

>>19189561
Sigurd the Dragon slayer had one snake eye and Moses told the Hebrews to look on the snake on the cross to heal their venomous bites. The archetype is there for Christ.

>>19185523
>enter thaerd
>see a greentext of something that did not happen

>>19189573
Oh don’t misunderstand me, I’m not advocating animal rights (this universe is a jungle and competition defines life on earth), I’m advocating eugenics.

>>19189506
You can't really provide a scientific justification for why personality matters either. Science isn't in the business of moral arguments at any level. But if you do scientifically identify something as life and then follow up by saying life should not be terminated, then you have a valid argument.

>>19189318
>I say whites are not special
>therefore I hate them
biggest of keks
I think you also missed the point
All people must confront the part of themselves that is "evil", that imparts suffering on others, because it's necessary to survive
The fault of society is that institutions must insulate their leaders from the perception of fallibility. And the lower classes, wishing to emulate the values of high culture, fall in line with their hypocrisy
If I'm evil then you are just as well

>>19185536
>non-bio-normative

>>19185809
bro people love their fucking retarded pets so killing human retards who are comparatively godlike can't be ok unless we kill all the pets. all the animals. blood in the streets. we can do it. i believe in us.

>>19185654
This answer will make the incels among us mad but the be-all-end-all of eugenics will always be women's natural choosiness in picking a partner. Every conscious eugenics-movement beyond that is usually just window dressing.

>>19187520
Downies are usually calm and happy and just want to enjoy their Thomas the Tank Engine. They will never betray you and just operate under simple friendly logic with no mind games or ulterior motives. That's based enough for me.

>>19188835
When, during developement, does one begin to experience them?

>>19188977
Yeah, this is a big one.
Of course it goes the other way as well. I don't remember any vegetarians or "animal rights activists" actually speaking out against abortion.

I had an argument with my cousin about whether aborting malformed/retarded fetuses is right or wrong, her whole argument about abortion is about unhealthy fetuses, they don't understand that it's a slipperyslope and the idea of "abort the disabled fetus!" is just a gateway to abortion on demand. had to use my secret card of showing her how late term abortion is done.

>>19190526
Well, we know fetuses don't experience any emotions at all in the first 2-3 months of existing.

>>19189342
>>19189537
According to this, eugenics and the Catholic Church is still an open question.
https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/16038b.htm

>>19190923
I guess; but even after they come out of the womb those emotions are still primitive things - nothing that we couldn't find in an animal. If we think it immoral to kill one but not the other just because those rough feelings will turn into something we recognise as human (and that still would not justify our respect for the handicapped), why should we not wait a bit longer, when we know that the foetus is from conception bound to develop emotions like ours just as much as an infant?

>>19191066
I think our values are fundamentally a bit different. I'm a vegan and I don't think it's okay to kill anything with emotions, but I don't see a problem in killing non-sentient things that are technically alive, i.e. early fetuses, oysters, plants etc.

I know a fetus will develop into a human being with real emotions, but it still doesn't change my opinion on the issue.

>>19191195
My problem is that I see no fundamental difference between the state of a foetus and that of - say - a man in a coma who is sure to recover: both will become functioning humans, one for the first time, one once again; I don't get why we should prevent either from reaching that state.
But if our values indeed differ so, I guess we just cannot talk face to face.

>>19185549
I bet he speaks better than you guys.

>>19189211
Based and Romanpilled

>>19188848
Because you know something is off.

>>19189898
Well said. The limits of stated preference and revealed preference for illicit murder vs state sanctioned murder enclose the body politic. The body politic is scarcely aware of these constraints and enacts violence to further obfuscate the sense of collective murder as an intentional collective predator prey hunting executing tribe instead an affeminate damsel in distress with minute categories for exceptional emotional story cases like rape victim or medical emergency. There is no identity in planning murder together as a shameless tribe only system compliant juries. The logic of violence is uniquely though most profoundly misunderstood by whites. Blacks have a suspicion of the "legitimate" logic of violence via police and white man law. Jews and the Old Testament understand guilt collectively and individually as a whole ritual and ecosystem worthy of much cultural attention. Whites punish attention. Blacks love each other in these struggles. Aztecs are interestingly forthright as well. Whites are shy are coy.

>>19186049
Arent we all just stardust

>>19185654
>my Catholicism
Catholicism is not "yours" you cuck LARPer

>>19189400
>get aristotle pilled
Some are content within their own ignorance and do not want to shoulder sacrifice

>>19185549
Sad world we live in when we as human beings have more compassion and empathy towards animals and plants than are fellow man.

>>19185654
Eugenics wouldn't even work, we must wait for Providence to collapse civilization and reestablish Darwinian selection

>>19185523
I never got why others should be avoided for reading something you wouldn't. I enjoy engaging with those who think differently than me. Then again my shelf (neat stacks of books in exact places on my floor) is a weird conglomeration of pulp sci-fi, fantasy, classics, history, folklore, and the occasional spiritualist or philosophical book. That and comics and manga.

>>19185526
Bet he posts here

>>19189353
A child should be willing and ready to die for its parents.

>>19192627
A parent should be a benevolent dictator, not a tyrant.

>>19192627
Wrong

>>19185549
My younger brother has down syndrome, and he truly is a source of happiness, I love him so much. I would do anything and everything for him <3

I've been thinking about abortion for a while, and for a long time, I tried to adopt a technical outlook on the matter, because adoption is so deeply integrated into society. I didn't want to be an ideologue, whether it was pro or anti abortion.

I would set arbitrary definitions such as "When the baby starts having a neurological activity" as the limit for abortion. But it is foolish for two reasons :
The first one is that there is no limit once the justification for extermination arises. As soon as women were allowed to have abortions, we were set on a course on which the limit would be set further and further, everytime celebrated as "a huge societal progress". It is happening as we speak.
Science has no place in it, which brings me to my second reason :
There are things in human nature that simply cannot be explained and rationalised, they just are. Whether it is for evolutionary reasons, or because of a higher order.
let's take the example of a brutal murder.
you can deconstruct the consequences of murder brick by brick, and at the end you will find no satisfactory answer as to why it is not to be done.
"The structure of society relies on people not murdering eachother"
Yes, but I'm just doing it once, people get murdered everyday, and society hasn't collapsed so far.
"It hurts people"
What if I don't care if I hurt people ?
Etc.
The exact same is true for abortion, the moment you start discussing the technicalities of abortion, you have lost the battle, and you have allowed it, the second you allow women to murder their child, you lose control of the limit, and all that is left on the road are obstacles.
You don't discuss the technicalities of abortion, just like you wouldn't discuss how you should be murdered , what kind of weapon, what kind of place, you just refuse to be murdered. And if it should come, you will fight tooth and nails to avoid it.
The justifications of abortion are a series of delusional statements, you will see, in your life, how we shift from "a clump of cells" to "it's quick, the baby feels nothing" to "it wasn't ever alive to begin with".
This is an unstoppable course, because it is irrational by definition, just like how the main arguments are "but what about rape and invests" when we know more than 95% of abortions are not for those reasons.

When you are discussing abortion rationality doesn't exist, or at least shouldn't, there are things that for human dignity, should remain undebated.

>>19185733
Ultrasounds are fucking incredible now. I'm going to flush it if it looks tarded. Fuck that shit.

>>19185809
There is a cute movie on this topic called The United States of Leland starring baby Ryan Gosling.

>>19186101
Eugenics doesn't dismiss the intrinsic value of life it dismisses the intrinsic value of suboptimal life. It breaks the value of life into categories and seeks to improve the quality over time. It is another branch of humanism, just not liberal humanism.

>>19193356
What about when he Lenny's your kid? Will you shoot your own dog?

>>19191524
Well there are nearly 8 billion of us. You understand inflation?

>>19185885
see this is why i cannot fully support abortion. Not because i think a fetus is alive or should be preserved (especially when it's from a niggress or has a birth defect), but because women should not make such decisions, and they definitely should not get any satisfaction from them.

>>19188977
i dont fucking eat elephants
And besides, the more sentient an animal, the more depraved they are

>>19193961
Hey buddy. Elephant tastes good.

>>19188977
So vegans should have no problem with those weird egg things with the embyro flips eat

>>19193971
what does it taste like

>>19193961
Pigs are the 5th most intelligent animal in the world.

>>19193961
>the more sentient an animal, the more depraved they are
proving my point
Humans are not excluded from being animals; in fact, they are the most depraved and contradictory. Allowing abortion will ultimately result in less overall suffering than forcing unwanted pregnancies. The contention over whether abortion is murder is moot because there are already socially acceptable justifications of killing other human beings, including innocents. Christfags in this thread live in denial of the colonial legacy of western civilization. There is no moral high ground for any of you

Abortion is bad because it is inherently life denying. A society that fights tooth and nail to have less children and ultimately less growth and life should dissapear and start anew.

>>19185523
based as fuck

I'm not interested in moral concerns, but I'm pro-choice because of demographic disparities in abortion rates.

>>19185523
the guy sounds cool. the fact that you think this is worth posting on 4chan tells me everything I need to know about you

>>19193882
True

>>19193972
I had one of those. It was really good

I don't get why people do this. I'm pro life when it's a roastie that just wants to slut around without consequences but if the baby will likely have a bad quality of life because of a disorder or disease ect... I think abortion is the humane thing to do

>>19193882
>>19194883
This is schizo. Abortion and indeed infanticide were common and socially acceptable in many societies (and in many cases only early term abortion was allowed, with no slippery slope effect). Humans have been thinking rationally and pragmatically about this since time immemorial.

>>19185809
Instead of deciding someone else's life isn't worth living because you can't imagine how to survive with something you perceive as suffering, you should instead legitimately considering killing yourself. Preferably without a gun, so some other weak piece of shit doesn't try to rob me of my rights to self-defense because of you.

>>19185839
yeah, but the Catholic Church also fucks boys, so I don't think we should be using them as an authority on morality.

>>19195428
Extremely based

>>19195161
Someone else's life isnt in your hands. Who the fuck are you to say whether another persons life is worth living? Get over yourself

>>19195406
Where's your evidence?
Even if it is true that abortions were practiced, they were extremely rare because they were dangerous and painful.
Only recently could you show up to a planned Parenthood, get anesthesia and wake up with an empty belly. Abortions before then were not that easy. And they were also rare because life had meaning, high infancy mortality meant that a baby was something much more precious than today.

And even if all of this was false, your whole argument is baseless anyways : "abortion is ok because humans always did it"
Humans also always raped, murdered, lied, cheated, does it mean it is acceptable? Of course not, just because we always had bad apples doesn't mean we should generalize the rot.

>>19185549
Every fucking day I rue having to talk to groups of addled down-syndrome retards, and I regret the existence of such creatures. However, by watching Frank Stephen's incredibly moving speech I have since been forced to recall my stance on those with mental disabilities. I apologize, some of you guys are actually alright

>>19188977
I hate vegans stfu