/lit/ - Literature

>>19127665
>What made it so great?
Catholicism

Paganism

>>19127665
>What made it so great?
Early writers had an education/familiarity with real, actual literature. Contemporary fantasy writers really only read (I suspect) within their own niche.

>>19127691
According to Tolkien, he made the languages first, and then the world second, and finally the stories.
I agree he was highly educated, but he seemed somewhat aloof with regards to his career. Could it be his aproach?

>>19127665
LOTR was mainly inspired by the poems of Ossian though much of the features were borrowed from other books.

>>19127665
Because current writers understand fantasy as
>Cool shit with magic and weird humanoid beings
While Tolkien gave meaning to everything and created a literary world with a lot of soul and meaning behind everything

LotR is shit, its influence is overrated because nobody even read it until the end of the 1960s, and authors inspired by it write shit like Sword of Shannara or Erogon
read something better like Dunsany, Eddison, Howard, Leiber, Vance, Anderson, Le Guin, etc

@19127773
>spot the grrm troon

Platonism.

I disagree but here's some ideas:

It's incestuous tropey self-indulgent bullshit instead of good literature or good mythology. It only draws from itself and has become very stagnant.

'Nerds' like it and nerds are tasteless retards. They have ruined it and because it is so incestuous it degrades even further. Things that were shit to begin with become a mandatory inclusion. Nerds have no sense for literature or mythology and much of their audience actually like this.

The genre is supposed to be tied to mythology. A kind of literate folkloric tradition that gives a sense of the fantastical or epic, and re-presents lore and stories in a new way. There is none of this in fantasy today.

>>19127922
hi disagree, I'm dad.

>>19127701
>>19127711
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_constructed_by_J._R._R._Tolkien

>>19127685
hello varg

>>19127665
berserk is pretty good

>>19127922
>self-indulgent bullshit instead of good literature or good mythology

>>19127763
exactly
which is also why dark souls 1 has the best setting/lore since LOTR, every aspect of it has meaning and a function in the overall scheme of things

>>19127665

Attention to detail.

>>19128865
cringe

>>19128865
>exactly
>which is also why dark souls 1
Fucking hell

>>19130501
>>19130572
t.pseuds

>>19127665
>he got filtered by Bakker

i just got LOTR and the cover is like a gray felt its super comfy i cant wait to read it

>>19127665
Can anyone recommend a quality fantasy series? The less science fictiony the better

>>19127665
>Why is all fantasy after LOTR literal shit?

The only people who unironically think this are the kind who need to be told what is good or not, because they are not intelligent enough, or don't read enough, to do actual critical analysis on their own. With you my guess is both.

LOTR has outstanding worldbuilding but serious pacing issues and mediocre characterization.

LOTR is peak comfy. A lot of people here shit on it because there is better literature out there. I still love LOTR because of the scenery, songs, and the immersive world. It's not the greatest fiction, but it is a story you can get lost in

LoTR is bad and everything it directly influenced is shit

The fantasy genre is a modernist form of myth making. Fantasy writers would be story tellers, orators, and poets in a more religious era. Fantasy novels are the best we can do when God is away. They aren't inherently bad, just people need to stop using elves and dwarves and dragons and come up with their own ideas. Maybe quit doing the hero journey trope and have decent prose and likable characters.

>>19132017
kill yourself

>>19132034
The Odyssey should be considered fantasy but it's not because retarded religious people believed that shit actually happened.

This whole entire thread and no one has mentioned any other fantasy except Berserk. I haven't read Berserk, but what do you think about writers like:
Stephen Graham Jones
China Miéville
Susanna Clarke
Liu Cixin
Mervyn Peake
Djèli P. Clark
Roger Zelaszny
?? I can't really understand the criticism. I think fantasy has evolved a lot since Lord of the Rings. Personally I prefer the older stuff, Sylvia Townsend Warner, Lord Dunsany, Hope Miirless etc., but I have a good time with newer fantasy that continues to chew on what it means to live in a changing society from lots of different perspectives.

>>19132093
>Three Body Problem
Literally the worst book I've ever read maybe. I kept reading because everyone said it was so amazing. Waste of a good couple afternoons.
What did I miss here?

>>19132093
Thanks. Which is your favourite series from one of these authors?

>>19132148
I really enjoyed the Bas-Lag series by China Mièville and Jonathan Strange and Mr. Norrell by Susanna Clarke. But nothing tops Mervyn Peake's Gormenghast novels. To me, those blow LOTR out of the woods

>>19127665

Because you dont read enough fantasy: Expand your horizons and dont confine yourself in "high fantasy", much less so on popular books.

For recomendations:

1-The Wandering Unicorn by Manuel Mujica Lainez (beautiful book, excelent modern take on the chivalric romance)

2-Dictionary of the Khazars by Milorad Pavic (not much to say, it is an experience on its own).

3-Baudolino by Umberto Eco (The adventures of a liar and his quest to find the kingdom of Prester John)

4-Dying Earth by Jack Vance.

>>19132384
Can you recommend something more European
Except for the last one it's all Mexican and jewish

>>19132522
>>19132522
The Wandering Unicorn is far more respectful of european folklore and the genre it drinks from than most of the crap written these days. Of Baudolino I can say the same, describing the medieval worldview in rich details that mix both paganism and christian theology.

>>19127665
Tolkien was inspired by God and his country
other writers were merely inspired by Tolkien

>>19127680
basederino if I do say so myself, I do declare

>>19131813
the first three books of the Earthsea quartet are nice, even if the decline in quality is noticeable after the first. I'm also partial to some of the Discworld books, but that may have to do with the fact that I read them a lot as a kid and now have a bad case of Nostalgia. Wheel of Time has its moments, but I would only recommend them if you're actually a masochist who gets off on slow agonising torture lasting for books on end.

>>19127665
Effort
Most fantasy writers are low IQ and don’t understand mythology or linguistics enough to make their words believable.

Tolkien emulated epic poetry, religion and oral traditions, other writers emulate Tolkien or each other (or worse, real life)

>>19132948
>>19133223
Based.

>>19133223
>(or worse, real life)
Rohirrim are literally anglo-saxons.
Tolkein explicitly said he based Gondor on Southern Europe.
Ents are an obvious metaphor for English hesitancy to get into WWII.
Tolkein took a lot of shit from history.
How are you this stupid and still able to type.

>>19127665
The genre attracts the wrong people as authors and readers: people who want to live in the fantasy worlds rather than tell a good story (which would not need a fantasy setting). At best the story turns out to be mediocre and I have the impression that a lot of the people working in publishing companies have shit taste and are bad at their job, resulting the crap that the authors send in to become streamlined into another 08/15 story.
A lot of fantasy literature tends to pander to the power fantasies of their readers. That is especially the case in the YA section but also in the 'adult' section.

>>19132948
>>19127680
>>19127691
I agree

>>19133421
> A lot of fantasy literature tends to pander to the power fantasies of their readers.
Is that always a bad thing? A lot of fantasy authors who pre-date Tolkien did this such as Robert E Howard and their writing is still remembered fondly.

>>19131813

The Ethshar books are pretty enjoyable IMO, though at the same time they can be a really fucking bizarre read at times for reasons I'm really struggling to put to words. At times the setting they're in can seem like the most generic fantasy setting there is, and they're not a parody series or anything so they can't make fun of that, but the oddly pedestrian nature of the stories lends them a weirdly appealing quality I can't quite express.

Like, it's a high fantasy setting and there's very clearly some extremely high level wizards and shit sure, but that's not what we see. I kind of don't want to spoil this because it was such an amusing thing to read myself, but I can't really think of a better example. The first book is about a guy is working as a scout in the army when he gets cursed by a wizard, gets pulled into espionage/assassination for a bit, then gets his freedom when the war abruptly ends, wanders around homeless for a bit, becomes a pub landlord and it goes on like that. And when the book finally ended I thought 'that was fucking great, why the hell did I like that so much?'. Its like wizard Catcher in the Rye: enthralling but you come away thinking 'the fuck was that?'.

Another book is about a kid who apprenticed to be a wizard but only got taught one spell (for lighting fires) before his mentor suddenly died, so his problem is essentially he's got no trade skills and is going to starve. So naturally he hobos his way around to try and find other wizards only to find out that wizardry is very competitive: no one will just give away their spells. The most he can get out of them is a kind word and a plate of biscuits. So next he gets roped into joining a bunch of 'adventurers' in dragon slaying, before quitting out when he realizes they're all just fodder and are absolutely going to get killed.

I guess I like them because the sheet mundanity of the protagonists and the down to earth realistic nature of the existences pulls me into the world enough that it makes the actual magic shit more wondrous to me. Or I've got terrible taste: maybe another anon should chime in to see if I'm not just nuts for adoring these fucking books.

>>19133669
Based and Conan-pilled.

>>19128783
boring though

>>19133789
For me it's Solomon Kane.

>>19127665
Asoiaf is better and the best fantasy

>>19133861
Filtered.

>>19127701
Absolutely a factor. People want to tell *their* stories nowadays (not A story) then they flush the world out as it's written. The result is a pieced-together narrative, that feels trite regardless if it is or not because the world's elements lack that full history.

Use George Lucas as a film counterpart to Tolkien, with clear parallels between their fantasy epics. Lucas shaped and named the planets, the factions, the history for years before he ever even committed Vader to being Luke's father.

Yet another example can be found in the best video games. Ones where the world seems to have more effort put into it than even the story mode (RDR2, Alien Isolation)

>>19133903
Can you expand on authors wanting to tell THEIR story? Are you referring them living vicariously through their words or something else?

>>19133365
>>19133223
Yeah, I don't think real life is a bad thing for inspiration. If anything myth is first and foremost inspired by human nature. But I think you're onto something because writers do try and emulate each other rather tha seeing why myths work and not just "what looks cool"

>>19127680

First post Based post

>>19133421

What are some examples of these "isekai-like power fantasy" books from the YA and Adult sections? Please give a few names so that I'll be avoiding in any store I see them.

>>19130589
>Implying people read books by that hack of an author, forever shilled by /sffg/

r scott bakker is based

>>19133946
I havent read a ton of fantasy outside LOTR, I think exactly 2 others desu.
But yes, both those two felt like they were telling a story they thought they should be telling because it's what would sell or what would make a good movie. Living vicariously isn't fully accurate to what I mean, but is in the same vein of what I'm trying to say.

>>19134338
Makes sense. Mistborn comes to mind immediately when I think of a book written to be a movie or a video game.

But I've read some good fantasy other than LOTR. Don't hear much about Pullman in /lit/ but His Dark Materials is a good solid fantasy book that balances "cool" with good mythology. However, if it wasn't for the preachiness and Pullman's need to shoehorn Christianity in, it'd be one of my favorite reads

I guess my side of the argument against modern fantasy would be that fantasy nowadays tries too hard to say the author's lesson rather than just telling a good story where the human elements come naturally

>>19134414
>>19134338
Rather, *teach the author's lesson for the reader

>>19127680
>>19127685
Both right

>>19127665
>Why is all fantasy after LOTR literal shit?

Because modern Fantasy authors abandoned the enchanting and truthful power of myth - Instead, opting to copying Tolkien and later GRRM.

https://monasticmythicworld.blogspot.com/2020/09/the-crisis-of-fantasy-genre-tolkiens.html?m=1

>>19127665
It's not though, you've just picked out shitty books.

>>19134949
When they don’t “abandon” tropes they rerun them and it’s drab. We do get this in the genre.
The ancients just repeat the story. There’s no reason to make a new one on the bones of the old.

>Hitler’s dentist office painting series
Speaking of drab

>>19127665
He went outside. That's it. He spent his childhood running around in the woods. He was inspired by the world around him and his experiences. Modern fantasy "authors" are inspired by... fantasy and comic books they read in their room. They cannot come up with anything more than a bland imitation of Tolkien when their only inspiration is Tolkien (and likely only 3 of his publications at best).

>>19135366
Tolkien was born in the most industrialised country in the world; lived alongside billowing smoke towers venting poisonous fumes liberated from the even more toxic base materials they worked on; and worked from the greatest and most populous metropolis that then existed.

LOTR was a dream. A wish. None of it existed. It was a stubborn refusal to acknowledge reality.