/lit/ - Literature

>>19005387
Nobody takes guenon seriously and this board has made him into a psyop. Turn back before it's too late
This applies to all the meme garbage being shilled here on a regular basis, traditionalism, advaita, catholicism, orthodoxy, etc

>>19005440
/thread

>>19005387
Isn't neoplatonism just a philosophy that can be applied to a living tradition? Like catholicism and aristotelianism? If you deny this, what was the neoplatonic initiation? How was it done? I think you assume some things with no real basis.

>>19005387
the madman actually went and read guenon
you know you're not actually supposed to read anything that's shilled here, right anon?

>you have to be initiated by some priest who was initiated by some other priest [...] because it isn't actually possible for you to have direct experience of god after all
It's crypto-atheism. If the Vedantins came out as atheists they'd be shunned as Buddhists, Sufis would have been thrown off rooftops, etc.

>>19005387
it has to go back to some divine messenger/teacher because that person had actual knowledge of how to reach the divine, whereas some white guys who read plotinus probably don't have direct experience of that. its a simple thing that it made to sound complicated.

>>19005387
He meant that you need to uncover the underground cave system with the initiatic caste still living there to obtain a valid initiation.
agarttha, it is said, did not always exist underground,
and will not always remain so. A time will come when,
according to Ossendowski's report, 'the people of Agharti will
come out of their caves and appear on the surface of the
earth'. Before its disappearance from the visible world, the
centre bore another name since Agarttha", which means
'ungraspable' or 'inaccessible' (and also 'inviolable' as it is
Salem, the 'abode of peace'), would not yet have become
appropriate. Ossendowski dates its withdrawal underground
as 'more than six thousand years ago', which turns out,
given a reasonable approximation, to correspond to the
beginning of the Kali-Yuga or 'Black Age', the 'Iron Age' of
the ancient West, which is the last of the four periods into
which the Manvantara is divided.

Guenon was initiated 6 times in his life, once around age 20 through a seance he claimed put him in contact with the ancient ghost of the grand master of the Templars, and once by Freemasons.

He violated the terms of his Sufi initiation by heretically not believing in Muslim orthodoxy and only seeing Sufism as a meditation practice. So he invalidated that initiation too.

In short, initiation comes via an already initiated source and for them, an already initiated source, and so on and so forth all the way to the origin of Primordial Tradition. It’s plausible for initiation to occur via what is basically divine intervention, but that’s unlikely to the point that it almost certainly won’t happen in the Kali Yuga. It’s also not a practical way of approaching initiation. He would be opposed to anyone who believes they can initiate themselves, yes.

>>19008038
He’s far from the first Sufi to publicly deviate from Muslim orthodoxy.

I’m reminded of Mansur al-Hallaj.

>>19008038
>Guenon was initiated 6 times in his life
Woah! So based! So much for "genuine initiatic experience"...

>>19008038
So he was the original cafeteria-style newager?

>>19008038
Topkek

>>19006947
>>19008044
Why do we have to directly trace it back to some historical order? Why can't somebody simply revive the practice of their polytheist ancestors by offering libations, composing hymns and reading Iamblichus? (I'm not a nu-Pagan myself, just wondering how this line of thinking ties into modern paganistic practice)

>>19005440
>This applies to all the meme garbage being shilled here on a regular basis, traditionalism, advaita, catholicism, orthodoxy, etc
This. The only truth is reddit atheism.

>>19005387
Fuck off Ioan

>>19008070
>>19008221
>>19008233
obvious samefag. kys.

>>19008992
No.

>>19009103
You dont look like that, you look like picrel.

>>19008256
Because the rites were divinely ordained and specific, not a profane reconstruction based on modern science, which modern neopaganism always is. Guenon has answers for why valid initiation is important in his books and you should read them, but for our purposes, we only need to see that the matter of metaphysical divinity vs profanity necessarily excludes digging these pagan rituals out of the earth and going through the motions. What’s the metaphysical basis for that? There isn’t one. What’s the divine basis for that? There isn’t one. When viewed this way, those neopagan rites are more like a war re-enactment than a religious ceremony.

>>19009452
I should probably add here that I find it quite natural but also more than a little ironic that Guenon is so popular, especially among young Westerners for the simple fact that his thinking is esoteric and I personally don’t think you can actually be a Traditionalist like Guenon describes if you live in the West. I suppose that’s where Julius Evola’s popularity comes in though.

>>19008221
Yes. He plagiarized multiple pages from Blavatsky.

>>19008256
There's no reason you can't, it's a specific hangup that Christians have due to a very specific facet of Christianity. That is, that Yahweh lives in a book, Yahweh created the world, and then he set up a bunch of rules, and if you break even one, you get tortured for eternity. You have no way of knowing what does or does not send you to hell, and attempts at finding out via empiricism send you to hell as trying to find out via empiricism is one of the things that sends you to hell. One man, who had 12 students, however, had it right, and taught his students what to do. Sometime around 350 years later, a bunch of the students of the students of... of the students of this man got together, piled all of the stuff that they had together, and determined what was and was not what this man taught. Maybe they got it right, maybe that got it wrong. But if they got something right, and then we forget it, we're all totally fucked with no way of fixing it. To that end, Christians are only ever capable of existing in a world that is on a decline because they are in a constant battle against entropy eating away at their religion.

But if we reject this idea, then the only reason is an argument towards some guy having made a cool discovery and you have a higher chance of getting cool stuff by virtue of its association. Plato had cool stuff, but how do we know this "Platonism" is really his cool stuff? Why, a chain of initiation! If we believe that the divine lives out in the world with us (or can be approximated as "living out in the world with us") then we can just go out and ask Zeus or whoever how to do whatever, and he'll tell us. We can totally just bruteforce a religion out of simple empiricism (remember that this IS what the Ancient Greeks believed their religion was before the Prophet Hercules got all the Gods together and asked them what they wanted and then went around telling people what to do).

This IS what the Platonists ("Neoplatonist" is a useless term) did: they had some theories, they went around and collected practices, and then they tried it all and what worked was kept and what didn't was discarded. We know because they told us. The queasiness around this (Platonic practice) in Modern Academia is hangup descended from Muslim thinkers who were trying to argue that Plato was a Shariah jurist who did Salat towards Mecca five times a day.

>>19009534
>Yes. He plagiarized multiple pages from Blavatsky.
Guenon did not "plagiarize" Blavatsky, they used many of the same source materials (especially in Guenon's early writings) and were active peripherally in the same milieu, and I'm sure you could make the case that he was influenced by her to some extent, even though he disagreed with her on many levels. However to claim he plagiarized her is either ignorant or disingenuous.

>>19009628
Guenon ate Madame Blavatsky's ass

>>19005440
>Nobody takes guenon seriously
on the contrary, /Lit/ is a Guenonian (pbuh) traditionalist board. There is nobody whom we take more seriously

>>19009534
>There's no reason you can't, it's a specific hangup that Christians have due to a very specific facet of Christianity. That is, that Yahweh lives in a book, Yahweh created the world, and then he set up a bunch of rules, and if you break even one, you get tortured for eternity. You have no way of knowing what does or does not send you to hell, and attempts at finding out via empiricism send you to hell as trying to find out via empiricism is one of the things that sends you to hell. One man, who had 12 students, however, had it right, and taught his students what to do. Sometime around 350 years later, a bunch of the students of the students of... of the students of this man got together, piled all of the stuff that they had together, and determined what was and was not what this man taught. Maybe they got it right, maybe that got it wrong. But if they got something right, and then we forget it, we're all totally fucked with no way of fixing it. To that end, Christians are only ever capable of existing in a world that is on a decline because they are in a constant battle against entropy eating away at their religion.

>>19009534
>We can totally just bruteforce a religion out of simple empiricism
The anglo bugman was a mistake

>>19009628
Taking multiple paragraphs without quotation and passing them off as your own are, by definition, plagiarism.

>>19009829
>>19009795
What's the problem? You believe this already happened, it's literally how Judaism came about according to your worldview.

>>19009927
>Taking multiple paragraphs without quotation and passing them off as your own are, by definition, plagiarism.
And he did this where? What paragraphs? Have you compared them?

>>19009927
Oh fuck off you stupid LARPer, the Jews are God's Chosen people and were guided by Divine Providence. You're just roleplaying.

>>19009949

>>19009795
>>19009829
>>19009949
if you cant just test out a bunch of shit to see what god(s) want then how did stuff like shinto come about? where did the greeks get their religion from in the first place?

>>19009999
>9999

>>19005440
Prince Charles shilled Guenon.

>>19009999
>how did stuff like shinto come about?
demon worship
>where did the greeks get their religion from in the first place?
demons

>>19010019
so god just let a bunch of demons go around and mislead people? why?

>>19010032
They were not His Chosen people

>>19009927
>What's the problem?
The implication that Christianity somehow is not guided by our Lord the Holy Spirit who created the world and had revelation going back from the first prophet Adam.

>>19009999
>god(s) want
Those would be demons, not God.
>where did the greeks get their religion from in the first place?
From empirically contacting the fallen spirits known as demons and thinking that worshipping them in exchange for power would be a good idea.

>>19010032
Because they fell away from Him and created their own isolated demon-worship groups when they spread away from Noah and his descendants.

>>19009999
>where did the greeks get their religion from in the first place?
From the Egyptians.

>>19009999
>where did the greeks get their religion from in the first place?
Minoan-Mycenaean civilization and ancient Aryans

>>19010992
Why did God create demons to lead people away from the worship of Himself? He could not have created them without knowing thats exactly what they would do. Seems counterproductive

>>19011234
He created angelic beings to serve Him and do various functions in the created world. Satan then rebelled against God and tempted other angels to join him. Men are not lead away by demons against their choice, they have to choose not to seek and follow God, only then can a demon can lead them to worship it.

God for now allows them to exist and roam on the Earth before the final judgment since they can be used in God's overarching plan for mankind's salvation.

>>19010086
Fuck the Jews. And fuck you. No body chose you many prophets came before you and more than 70% of the world doesn't believe in your fantasy.
>muh demons
Your tribal God is the demon, jewish faggot kys.

>>19011604
>Muh mysterious ways
How can anyone seriously take christcucks seriously? It must certainly be the religion with the most illogical cosmology ever made up.
The old testament is god of war worship written by sunstricken kikes. yhwh is a vengative, ignorant, impotent, humanised "god".
Why would God have a will, or need to act and subject itself to change? Why would it let satan roam the earth? Why would God's plan fail or why would he feel threatened by a tall tower? Why would he need to send his own son (who is also God but not actually God) to die on earth? Why does he need to die for our sins? Wouldn't God be able to forgive them without a sacrifice?

>>19005440
Liberalistic materialism is a mental illness.

BUMP

>>19013127
>god of war worship
cringe. bug.
>Why would
He just does. It is in His nature.
>need to act
God does not have the necessity to act, it is entirely of His own free will which He does act with respect to creation.
>subject itself to change
God does not subject Himself to change in His nature, only some of His actions (like creating the world and destroying Sodom) have temporality to them.
>Why would it let satan roam the earth?
Because Satan's evil will be used against him to further God's plan for salvation. The limited evil Satan can do before the final judgement will be overshadowed by the eternal unimaginable torment he will experience for his actions.
>why would he feel threatened by a tall tower
God wasn't threatened, but saved the foolish humans by making the tower and condemning themselves to hell by falling into deeper demon-worship. The demons were the ones inciting the tower building.
>Why would he need to send his own son
The incarnation happened so that humanity may become divine by participating in Christ's divinity and humanity.
>but not actually God
Jesus Christ is God, in no way can you say that He was at some point or in some sense not God. That He is also true man does not negate that Christ is God.
>Wouldn't God be able to forgive them without a sacrifice?
No because the metaphysic of sin and original sin is such eroding to creation itself that it needs blood to be washed away. Only Christ's blood could wash away the sin of all of the world and remove this ugly stain from mankind and creation. Sin isn't just a bugman number you rack up on a protestant-like bank account system. It's an abhorrent corruption which can only be washed by blood.

>>19009927
>>19009944
Well? Post the plagiarism, anon. Or are you making baseless assertions?

>>19014338
>cringe. bug.
buzzword buzzword
>He just does. It is in His nature.
All actions change the subject from potentiality into actuality and therefore change the subject. God cannot change as He is perfection and as such must be immutable.
Sending Christ to die on earth changes God, destroying Sodom changes God and deciding that Abraham and his descendants must cut off their foreskin is a change in His word and Law as he didn't think it was necessary for the prediluvian patriarchs.
>The limited evil Satan can do before the final judgement will be overshadowed by the eternal unimaginable torment he will experience for his actions.
So God is some sort of revenge driven utilitarian that lets his flock suffer if it means he can inflict greater suffering on satan?
>The incarnation happened so that humanity may become divine by participating in Christ's divinity and humanity.
Humanity is divine as it emanates from God, there's no need for Christ to die for that to happen.
>the metaphysic of sin and original sin is such eroding to creation itself that it needs blood to be washed away
God needs blood to clean the sin that he himself let happen, the serpent is anterior to Adam and Eve and as such is the original corrupting force of the world. Why didn't God end the problem at it's roots?
>Sin isn't just a bugman number you rack up on a protestant-like bank account system
I agree.
>It's an abhorrent corruption which can only be washed by blood.
It can only be washed away through devotion to God, search for knowledge and asceticism from lower carnal urges that corrupt the soul. No need for Christ to die for salvation.

>>19014701
>change the subject from potentiality into actuality
God's actions are not His substance. This would entail absurdity like the world being an eternal creation proceeding necessarily from God's divine substance.
>Sending Christ to die on earth changes God
It does not change what God is in substance, nor does it change what the Father or the Holy Spirit are in any way, nor does it change WHO Christ is in any way, only that He entered a new mode of being which nobody in the Holy Trinity previously entered into.
>destroying Sodom changes God
God initiating new actions in time does not change Him, because "destroying Sodom" and "initiating a covenant" is not a part of His eternal substance. These actions do not condition or define Him in any way.
>inflict greater suffering on satan?
According to God's infinite wisdom and providence, letting Satan roam for now can serve to the greater salvation of humans, so He allows it to happen. It's a part of the grand plan of salvation. The defining thing here is human salvation, not Satan's upcoming punishment.
>Humanity is divine as it emanates from God
Only in that it was patterned on the Logos and created through Him, but because of our actions we lost the likeness of the Logos. We are not divine by nature like Christ is. He came back to restore this likeness and to allow us a full unity with Him (we become all that Christ is except identity). His death was also necessary to free us from death. Christ destroyed death by death, so that it lost any malicious effect on us.
>as such is the original corrupting force of the world
The serpent was not the pinnacle of creation, Adam was. As such, the fall of the serpent would not have any effect on creation itself without Adam falling. Even Eve falling was remediable, because the man whom all of creation is connected to did not yet get separated from God's grace. God created Adam in His image, with the ability to act on his own volition and thus being able to choose between Satan's lie and God's commandment. This is why He did not forcibly stop Adam or does not forcibly stop anyone of us from worshipping demons.
>It can only be washed away through devotion to God,
Nobody before Christ could enter paradise. Washing away all consequences of original sin requires being washed by Christ's blood. We have to participate in Christ's death if we want the fallen man in us to die. Asceticism without Christ's blood is only a step on the path, you still remain tainted and corrupted by sin, since you only control your fallen body but are unable to transfigure it into new creation. There is no power innate to you which can remove all sin and remake you into pre-fall man. You will always have the basic corruptions of the fall like wavering between evil and good and having imaginations. Christ came and showed us the way to be free - by believing in Him, participating in His death and resurrection, receiving the Holy Spirit and partaking of His Body and Blood.

bump.

>>19009134
Cope

>>19008256
>Guenon has answers for why valid initiation is important in his books and you should read them
Where can I read more about his views on valid forms of initiation?

>>19005440
>Nobody takes guenon seriously
speak for yourself, you rat

>>19016035

>>19016787
Thanks anon

>>19009534
>To that end, Christians are only ever capable of existing in a world that is on a decline because they are in a constant battle against entropy eating away at their religion.
Good, lost causes are the only ones worth believing in, and they pay out the most.

>>19016800
Just to clarify I'm not the anon you originally spoke to, I don't always agree with him (I lean more towards Evola's take on the matter) but this is a good book nonetheless.

Guenon LITERALLY believes there's a midget in the hollow center of the earth controlling everything.

It's NOT a metaphor. Guenonians don't like to talk about this because it's so retarded. Guenon's Indian friends broke off all contact with him after he published The King of the World.

>>19016873
filtered

>>19009927
>What's the problem? You believe this already happened, it's literally how Judaism came about according to your worldview.
and look how well that's going

>>19016873
cite the exact passage by page number or fuck off

>>19016873
Source?? Proof?!?!?

>>19016873
>here's a midget in the hollow center of the earth controlling everything.
Wouldn't really surprise me tbqh

>>19016873
>Guenon LITERALLY believes there's a midget in the hollow center of the earth controlling everything.

>>19016873
>It's NOT a metaphor. Guenonians don't like to talk about this because it's so retarded. Guenon's Indian friends broke off all contact with him after he published The King of the World.

>>19005387
>Could someone please explain Guenon's point about having an initiatory line dating all the way back to a divine source?
You mean the same "point" that was sufficiently rationalized by the Hellenes millennia before that protoredditor was conceived?

>>19019084
Guenon (pbuh) is the antithesis of everything that is reddit