/lit/ - Literature

>>18963763
the voices are real you fuckstick

>>18963770
Take your meds

Anon please wake up

>>18963763
Goes well with the book "Gaslighting isn't real either".

i'm sure many people would agree

Hey I guess it's a good thing we're finally talking about this. Did anons know that schizophrenia is diagnosed at a rate suggested to be double the amount of actual cases? Some arbiters of reality those psychiatrists are, am I right? Only surpassed by smug bastards like OP.

>In a small study of patients referred to the Johns Hopkins Early Psychosis Intervention Clinic (EPIC), Johns Hopkins Medicine researchers report that about half the people referred to the clinic with a schizophrenia diagnosis didn’t actually have schizophrenia.
https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/news/newsroom/news-releases/study-suggests-overdiagnosis-of-schizophrenia

>>18963847
Suppose mental illness is over diagnosed. Does it follow that mental illness doesn't exist at all? You've failed to challenge the statement in OP

>ooo mental illness is so real and scary!

>>18963843
anyone that's ever been to the doctor's for treatment of depression knows exactly how 'rigorous' they are in their diagnoses.

>>18963856
>You've failed to challenge the statement in OP
OP has failed to say anything at all. Why don't you tell me what OP is saying first, and then we can talk about it.

>>18963763
Who are you to say that "hearing voices" constitutes an "illness"? Until recently, being gay or transgender was considered a mental illness. Until recently, whiteness wasn't considered a mental illness.

>>18963887
this, Szasz's argument is about the concept of mental illness and what kind of phenomena can be regarded as it. Suppose schizophrenia is caused by some chemical imbalance, why call it mental illness and not just physical illness then? This concept is mostly used to describe actions that do not fit society's standards, we can imagine schizos actually serving a socially important role in some societies and it could be an evolutionary trait, which is just maladaptive in our times. The concept of mental illness hangs on nothing, it is just a spook without referent. And this is the argument, not that schizos do not exist.

>>18963887
If we can accept a normative statememt can we then accept mentall illness? It appears to me that you're citinf moral relativism to challenge the notion of mentall illness

>>18963914
>why call it mental illness and not just physical illness then
This seems really trivial. Lets call it a physical illness of the brain and call it a day

>>18963763
Schizophrenia is a true deformity, but stuff like "depression" and "ADHD" is just habitual behavior that can change with effort
Source: My prejudices

>>18963856
That's not what the book argues and you would know that if you even read the introduction. He specifically talks about the realities of schizophrenia. You couldn't have even skimmed the book.

>>18963847
The sad state of psychiatry does not imply that the object(s) it investigates aren't real. But thanks for the link, it's useful for my research.

>>18963887
Hearing voices as a singular symptom, in that case you are right that it is not necessarily to be taken as a disease, and there are movements to depathologize voice-hearing, which are fairly reasonable. However, OP is clearly aiming at schizophrenia spectrum proper, which involves more than hearing voices, a symptom complex that 1) implies an actual deficiency in evolutionary adaptive functioning (both Wright and Cummins function), following the biostatistical model of disease, and 2), it mostly leads to profound suffering in those afflicted with it, also rendering it a disease (illness, if you want to be pedantic) under a purely normative view of disease.

>>18963914
If you want to argue that states that are maladaptive currently aren't diseases because we can imagine situations in which they weren't be maladaptive, you throw out physical diseases as well and your rendition of Szazs' argument depending on a distinction between the two collapses.

>>18963773
Medications give people a type of Parkinson's called Pseudoparkinson's, and they actually created a neurological disease called Tardive Dyskinesia which was never before seen when they started pushing them, alongside the introduction of a new, medication induced type of Dystonia, all three of which cripple someone for life, sometimes with the first dose. A single pill.

Also something they don't want you to know, the pills can literally induce a state of torture called akathisia, which is what that poor bastard Dr. Peterson got, where he has had to walk around all day, every day, because his nervous system has been fried for at least a year, which still does not relieve the feeling of restlessness. It's much like a rotten tooth, fibromyalgia, or tinnitus, and since people can't see it they often don't know the state of inner torment someone is going through, but suicide is often ideated as a way of ending their suffering, and sometimes used as an option.

These are the meds they want you to take when they say "take our meds."

https://infogalactic.com/info/Extrapyramidal_symptoms
https://infogalactic.com/info/Pseudoparkinsonism
https://infogalactic.com/info/Dystonia
https://infogalactic.com/info/Tardive_dyskinesia
https://akathisiaalliance.org/about-akathisia/

Akathisia was literally used as a torture technique in the Soviet Union:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6eix3cdwoU

>>18963937
>This seems really trivial.
conceptually yes, but it has great social, political consequences, especially when the book was written>>18964002
>you throw out physical diseases as well
not really. if the state of being a schizo does not affects the organism negatively, then it is not disease. There is comparative research that shows how western schizos who hear voices perceive them negatively, whereas shizos from societies, where it is not seen as an abnormality, perceive them positively. You cant change the meaning of lung cancer in different societies, but you can change the meaning of symptoms of schizophrenia.

The world wouldn't be the same without schizoposting. The lord works in mysterious ways.

>>18964293
>whereas shizos from societies, where it is not seen as an abnormality

What are these societies?

>>18964108
I've experienced both akathisia and pseudoparkinson's. Akathisia is incredibly brutal. It's difficult to explain to someone who has never experienced it, it isn't just restlessness. It's like having this itch in your muscles and your bones, and you have to move to relieve it, and if you don't, it turns into pain. Didn't even notice I had pseudoparkinson's. Someone else caught it watching me move around.

Turned out I shouldn't have been on antipsychotics anyway because I didn't have somatoform disorder as suspected, but misdiagnosed epilepsy, and both resolved as soon as I came off the medication. In some ways I was lucky. In other ways, I still have intractable epilepsy and spent a year committed because of it.

>>18964313
https://news.stanford.edu/2014/07/16/voices-culture-luhrmann-071614/
e.g.
>in Accra, Ghana, where the culture accepts that disembodied spirits can talk, few subjects described voices in brain disease terms. When people talked about their voices, 10 of them called the experience predominantly positive; 16 of them reported hearing God audibly. “‘Mostly, the voices are good,'” one participant remarked.

>>18964338
Thanks, anon. Interesting.

>>18964293
Actually, the differences in the brain of someone with schizophrenia very often leads to the onset of dementia.

>implying that the voices inside my head aren't the voice of angels
hope you like petrol bombs, anti-christ

>>18964384
if we take >>18964338 then we should raise the question, whether it accelerates onset of dementia universally or only in the Western world

>>18964329
>Akathisia is incredibly brutal.
Anybody that's ever had it will say the exact same thing. Docs didn't give a flying fuck.

>Turned out I shouldn't have been on antipsychotics anyway
>In some ways I was lucky. In other ways, I still have intractable epilepsy and spent a year committed because of it.
The amount that this happens is an absolute fucking travesty of medicine and at the very least will go down in the history books as an embarrassment to the prestige of the medical establishment, plain and simple.

>>18964499
>as an embarrassment to the prestige of the medical establishment
Mental health care is and always has been a fucking travesty of guess work and misdiagnoses, name one period in time when it could ever justly be called prestigious.

>>18963914
Very interesting thought, thanks man

>>18964293
>great social, political consequences, especially when the book was writte
How so?

>>18964505
>justly
So we don't disagree, then.

>>18963763
Everyone hears voices in their head, it's called thinking doofus

>>18964587
at the time psychiatry functioned as a tool of social/political control. In western world homos were seen as abnormal and medicated, in USSR political dissidents were seen as schizos, mentally ill. Anti-psichiatry movement reacted to the arbitrary conduct of psychiatry and Szasz kind of spearheaded it. But soon came the 80's and psychiatry had to take a more careful approach. Diagnostic approach was adjusted and focus was shifted to anxiety-related problems that can be seen into everyone, so the drug companies made big bucks out of it. But psychiatry made a fool of itself once again, when it was found out that those anxiety treating drugs were as effective as placebo.

>>18964694
>at the time psychiatry functioned as a tool of social/political control.
Doesnt really seem like much has changed. Mayhe i'm too young to remember the period of reform, which certainly must have been given up on by now.
>Anti-psichiatry movement reacted to the arbitrary conduct of psychiatry and Szasz kind of spearheaded it
Szasz says he opposed anti psychiatry in the latest foreward to the edition i own

I really wish you people would do some fieldwork. It's not hard to resolve a swathe of your hypotheses regarding psychiatry and mental health professions - go to a behavioral hospital and ask for a tour. If it's a closed unit, apply for a Tech position and do some reconnaissance for a week. Schizoaffective disorders, BPD, ASD - these are things you can experience for yourself. Szasz would agree.

>>18964776
>I really wish you people would do some fieldwork.
Some of us haven't had a choice, mate.

>virging jews are evil, read this low quality infograph about unrelated facts to know why
vs
>based "Nobel Prizes have been awarded to over 900 individuals,[1] of whom at least 20% were Jews.[2] "

>>18964108
Meds. Take them. Now

"Mental illness" is an oxymoron. Illness is something that affects the body. Cancer cells, viruses, bacteria, etc. were all discovered. "Mental illness" was invented. It's a medical metaphor with no bearing on reality that was introduced to explain abnormal or socially problematic behavior. With how little we know about the brain, the psychological models that have traditionally been relied upon in this area are unobservable, immeasurable, and theoretical (i.e., not scientific). They're a successor to demonic possession for a secular world.

Mental illnesses are brain illnesses. Everything else is just behavior, and the variety that exists in this area isn't amenable to being binarized into "healthy" and "ill". The majority of the DSM-V is actually devoted to problems in living well that human beings have tried to address for thousands of years by route of philosophy and ethics. By turning these into "medical" problems (spoiler: they're not), the psychologist washes his hands of any broader philosophical obligations.

In the past few decades, the discipline has started rejecting the traditional model of psychopathology and turning toward positive psychology, which is a welcome development. But still, the future belongs to behaviorism, neuroscience, and philosophy.

tl;dr - actually read the book op

>>18965592
Yeah desu I just finished the foreward, preface, and introduction and decided I would make a bait post so you guys could supplement my reading.

>>18964694
Psychology and psychiatry are still forms of social control. Labeling behavior or cognitive processes as "maladaptive" or "pathological" suggests that they run afoul of some kind of social norm. Psychiatrists will treat compulsive exhibitionists with anti-androgens because in most societies there's a general expectation that you don't expose yourself to strangers.

The problem here is that you can get into ethical questions that psychology isn't equipped to answer. Stupid example:

You're a clinician and somebody comes in with an adult diaper fetish that's interfering with his sex life and causing him distress because it's ego-dystonic, What are you supposed to do here?

Clearly it's abnormal, so does that make it "pathological"? Should it be discouraged? Is it indicative of healthy human sexual diversity? In that case, should the clinician go with a paraphilia affirmative approach that encourages him to integrate it into his life and seek a partner with similar interests?

Psychology, on its own, is incapable of producing normative ethical criteria to evaluate this situation. Not only is it unclear what would be effective here, it's unclear what's /right/. So how can we say whether either course of treatment is "effective"? Effective at doing what?

>>18965618
It's an incredibly based book.

its the same myth that joseph campell talks about.

>>18965707
And what myth is that

>>18963914
I thought his argument was that liberals invented mental illness to take power of attorney from old people and that the medicalization of society is a trick to control you.

>>18964329
Do you have TLE with hallucinatory aura or something? That's a really shit story, my dude. Sorry to hear that.


I'm a neurologist, so obviously I'm a believer in the medical establishment to a certain extent by being part of it, but I have to acknowledge that there are plenty of absolutely trash doctors who can't diagnose accurately.

Re Antipsychotics: they work well, but the side effect profile is dirty.
Antidepressants, which are everywhere all the time, have milder side effects, but of you look at how rarely they work (1/7 people), they are overall much shittier drugs. I only hope we can move to cybernetic psychosurgical solutions instead of drugs.

>>18963887
Because an illness affects your ability to survive and an untreated schizophrenic will experience irreversible brain damage while a homosexual's orientation will not directly affect his health - I cannot believe I have to say this shit because it is very easy to understand. And yes gender dysphoria is a mental illness by this definition.

>>18966225
So he's a lunatic and a retard?

>>18966891
>cybernetic psychosurgical
Anon I'm not going to let you replace my inner monologue with my moralising Jewish therapist whispering words of encouragement. But do tell me more

>>18963763
I think some people go too far with this thesis. There's a lot of daylight between some neurotic with health anxiety and some psychotic who can't stop being attacked by giant bells with Mickey Mouse eyes.

>>18966956
>a homosexual's orientation will not directly affect his health
Statistically it will

>>18966973
Things like DBS. Rather than using medications we stimulate parts of the brain to treat the condition with a lower side effect profile. Works for Parkinson's, works for OCD. It's about the only justification for psychiatrists doing studies involving FMRI.

>>18964499
>and at the very least will go down in the history books as an embarrassment to the prestige of the medical establishment

Will it? It seems like the hegemony of lysenkoist quacks is absolute and for all time.

>>18966973
>let

>>18965592
based actual szasz reader

>>18966977
That's a very specific image.

>>18967100
That's pretty cool, you think it will eventually be used to treat conditions besides OCD and parkinsons? With my minimal understanding of neurology I'd think conditions with many potential maintaining factors like depression would be hard to treat with such methods
>>18967150
kek

>>18963763
even with a book like this, psychologists and psychiatrist still believe in his work and people in general think they are right and let them be the arbiters of the mind in this place and time.
we have to live with this people till a movement strong enough to debunk scientism can replace it. and that would be a long long time.

>>18967171
It hasn't been done for depression yet, as far as I can tell, in part because depression lacks as clear a locus as the prototypical indications for it. Some work for its use in schizophrenia but I don't know how successful that has been. Another promising route for depression is psychedelic therapies. It has the benefit of a milder side effect profile and also less need to be an ongoing treatment. Rollout and legality will be a hindrance, however.

>>18967180
what exactly is bad with depression?. its just a new term to melancholy. and we are sadness, we are a void too. socially we cant accept this, evidently, but individually we can and should do. depression is a form to understand you better but society is desperate to make you a comfortable cog of the machine and you even think you should be that cog for yourself. so it become a paralyzing feeling full of guilt instead. its all a lie.

If mental illness isn't real, then why are there people who disagree with my opinions and say things I don't like?

Checkmate.

>>18967189
this, psychiatry and most of psychology is just a cheap substitution for community and meaning

>>18964307
this. Schizos are interesting and challenge dogmas with their psychobabble, and sometimes have genuinely impactful ideas

modern day shamans but most don't know how to control their powers, so they instead get into retarded conspiracy theories and get lost in smoke and mirrors

>>18963847
It's important to point out that those misdiagnosed were suffering from other mental illnesses. They were not healthy subjects diagnosed, out of the blue, with schizophrenia. Different kinds of psychosis can be difficult to diagnose correctly. Your link proves nothing in this discussion.

>>18967681
How do you know they were correctly diagnosed with the other mental illnesses?

>>18967189
Not a typical answer, but I'd posit that if we define disease as a disorder of homeostasis, mental illness is where our mood, mentation or exterosomal beliefs are deviated from the "norm" to the extent that they interfere with our ability to care for ourselves. I don't doubt we have over medicalised things, but in the same way hiccups aren't usually a disease, but they are when they are so bad you can no longer eat, mood, energy and beliefs can veer into territory where they disrupt homeostasis.

>>18967681
Counterpoint, how many schizophrenic patients actually have limbic encephalitis?

>>18967631
We are into the
>why should we improve the living conditions of the livestock when it's cheaper to pump them full of antibiotics
stage of things

>>18968051
this is just hypocrisy and fakeness and societal agreement. a mental homeostasis dont exist, and i say more, it should not exist as a parameter of who you are. moods are always fluctuating, beliefs are always fluctuating. making of your ability to care for yourself the notion of a mental illness its so dangerous and it imply so many things about what a person should be. for example, that means every suicidal person have an illness. and i hope you agree with me that that is pure bullshit.

test if I'm banned for posting lolis

>>18964108
Some genuine truth backed up by some less than credible links. A book on this, from a more clinical standpoint, is called "Anatomy of an Epidemic," for those interested.

While theres no discussion of a single pill causing catastrophic damage as this anon describes, clinical trials and the medical literature do suggest that LONG TERM use of psychotropics worsen symptomatology of mental illness, with a few added quirks (such as picrel in this anton's post). Definitely worth a read -- the psychotropic drug epidemic is an understudied and neglected iatrogenic crisis overshadows by the more sinister opioid epidemic in recent decades.

>>18968322
Well done attempt at minimizing anon's post without actually falsifying anything he said. Typical med student speak.

>>18963887
>Until recently, being gay or transgender was considered a mental illness
not necissarily trying to be offensive here, but im thinking, from a mere genentic level, wouldnt if those things were inborn genetic traits, be less than likely to be passed on to future generations? wouldn't that imply it is more a social developmental construct more than anything else?

Not that gays or tans couldnt reproduce, and historically they probably did, especially from societal pressures, but I dont exactly here of gay dynasties or trans dynasties.

>>18963763
Certain mental illnesses like schizophrenia aren't real, but "mental illnesses" like depression or ADHD can be cured by growing a pair

>>18963763
any book of psychology that is older than 20 years is unreliable and surpassed. Either you read philosophy at that point, or you update yourself.

>>18968451
>treating psychology as if it's a science

Yikes.

Very interesting.

Let's pull up the Early Life section.

>>18964338
>this backward society that recommends eating the flesh of albinos and hasn't progressed past the iron age says voices are wise, tear up the textbooks!

>>18968399
Anon, there's nothing wrong with trans people, mentally. They look just like you or me and you probably pass them in the street all the time without realising

>>18966956
>a homosexual's orientation will not directly affect his health

How's those STD stats looking?
How's those mental health stats looking?
How's those more likely to smoke and drink stats looking?

>>18968515
Every. Single. Time.

>>18967681
>Different kinds of psychosis can be difficult to diagnose correctly.

How can you "diagnose" somebody as conforming to an unobservable conceptual framework, let alone presume to know that there are different kinds? We know so little about the underlying neurological mechanisms that it's impossible to make this determination. The distinctions between schizoaffective disorder, schizophrenia, paranoid personality disorder, etc. are all arbitrary for this reason.

Psychiatry is a process of trial and error. E.g., we have observed that lithium mitigates extreme behavior in individuals with "bipolar disorder" and that antiandrogens reduce compulsive sexual behavior in cases where it's socially problematic. These are both desirable outcomes. But we can't assert as fact the speculative and often arbitrary models about either condition.

It's truly mad how deeply people have internalized this framework and how incapable they are as recognizing it as a metaphor.

>>18968597
what metaphore?

>>18968363
>minimizing
I've never heard or read about "a single pill" inducing the stuff in his post. And, without even looking, I wouldn't trust the website "Info Galactic" with accurate info on something that's been hush hush in the medical community until recently.

I'm not trying to falsify any of it, I was skeptical of a single point and suggested people look to the literature rather than "Info Galactic." I trust the same info is there, just made available through a more credible media

>>18968399
We know they aren't inborn genetic traits. Countries like Saudi Arabia are full of men who have sex with men. They weren't born that way, but we flatter ourselves that our own societies are in a sort of state of nature where our sexualities are 'free'.

>>18968640
see
>>18965592
>"Mental illness" is an oxymoron. Illness is something that affects the body. Cancer cells, viruses, bacteria, etc. were all discovered. "Mental illness" was invented. It's a medical metaphor with no bearing on reality that was introduced to explain abnormal or socially problematic behavior.

>mental illnesses aren't real because they're not physical problems with the body
but they're heritable, or at least somewhat so, so they clearly MUST have physical components and we just haven't found them yet
>o-oh, s-sorry

that is all i have to say about this.

>>18965687
>Clearly it's abnormal, so does that make it "pathological"? Should it be discouraged? Is it indicative of healthy human sexual diversity? In that case, should the clinician go with a paraphilia affirmative approach that encourages him to integrate it into his life and seek a partner with similar interests?
You should ask the fucking client what he WANTS to do, retard.

You're making things more complex than they need to be, and more complex than they really are.

>"b-b-but the client doesn't know"
Then sit down and talk it out with him until he does know what he wants, and then help him achieve that.

>"b-b-but the client doesn't know what his own best interests are!"
We already have tools for those people, they're called involuntary treatment and detention in a secure ward.

Your framing of the situation as involving only the psychologist, and primarily as the psychologist as the decision maker, is the problem - not psychology.

>>18968796
P.S., when you do it this way - the right way - all of your bullshit about MUH SOCIAL NORMS dies on the spot because the desires of your paying customer become the metrics against which success is judged, and those are far from fucking arbitrary.

Fucking brainlets I swear to god.

>"but what if it wasn't a diaper fetishist, what if it was a violent schizo subject to court-ordered treatment"
Then your job is to achieve the orders made by the court, which will have specified a treatment outcome implicitly.

Psychology is not a "tool of social control". It is a shop where people go to buy services. Psychologists are no more relevant or important than a fucking McDonald's cashier.

>>18968796
>We already have tools for those people, they're called involuntary treatment and detention in a secure ward.
really this is not a problem to you?. i want to know more of thoughts of people like you.

>>18963786
That would be so cool. To be 10 years old again and know this horror show wasn't real. Oh well.

>>18966956
>untreated schizophrenic will experience irreversible brain damage
I know next to nothing about most things in life, but is this true? Won't they just go about their day, hearing their voices. What damage to their brain occurs?

>>18968824
>really this is not a problem to you?. i want to know more of thoughts of people like you.
The community is entitled to take steps to protect itself from enemies.

>>18968830
are you the same anon?...

>>18968843
Yep.

>>18968848
what the fuck, you are beyond retarded.
>The community is entitled to take steps to protect itself from enemies.
this is what social control means. and still you have the nerve to say "psychology is not a tool of social control". really beyond retarded.

>>18968861
>this is what social control means.
Correct, and the law and the courts are a tool of social control.

The psychologists who provide treatment services for the court are contractors fulfilling a paid obligation. The court sets the objectives, provides the funds, makes the orders, and etc. etc.

You will now say "but the psychologists participate so therefore..." but this is a retarded framing. The psychologists would participate regardless of the objectives of the court because they're doing what they're paid for. The court is the agent of action and the court is the force for social control.

You can quibble about it further if you want, I don't care. The point is that psychologists do nothing of their own accord and they don't need to generate their own ethical framework because they are simply fulfilling objectives set by customers.

>>18968877
if you read the book of the OP. you would know psychology was never separate from the court because it have the same implicit objectives (societal control and a normativity of behaviours).
in fact the court gives you people because psychology/psychiatry promise they can "cure" them.
anyway your own notion of the thing is stanilist shit, you are literally calling enemies to people who dont agree with your notions of things. and worse still, with the course of action they should have according to you and your expertise in human behaviour.

>>18968817
>Psychology is not a "tool of social control". It is a shop where people go to buy services. Psychologists are no more relevant or important than a fucking McDonald's cashier.
Mcdonalds cashiers don't call themselves 'doctors' and pretend to have objective science backing their enforcement of what are really just social norms. They also don't have the power to have people imprisoned or have their most basic rights taken away without trial.

>>18968877
>Soldiers have nothing to do with war. The generals are fighting the war and the soldiers are simply fulfilling objectives because that's what their paid for. The soldiers do nothing of their own accord and have absolutely no responsibility for what goes on in the war, or any 'war crimes' committed.
NPCs are real bros...

>>18968912
>anyway your own notion of the thing is stanilist shit, you are literally calling enemies to people who dont agree with your notions of things. and worse still, with the course of action they should have according to you and your expertise in human behaviour.
Do you have any fucking idea the kind of stupid shit you have to do to be subject to detention in a secure facility, indefinitely, on a court order? Enemy is an apt word. They are enemies of civilisation, harbouring destructive and violent impulses. We all agree that society should fight enemies, you just don't like the accurate description of non-functional useless parasites who suck up money and do meth all day, which is what 99% of actually mentally ill people actually do.

>"b-b-b-but i was made to go to hospital for a week one time and i didn't really like it waaahhh :("
My heart fucking bleeds for you, anon. This is the greatest injustice that man has ever suffered. Truly you are the victim of the most monstrous and oppressive tyranny ever to stalk this wretched earth.

>psychology was never separate from the court because it have the same implicit objectives
Psychology never could be separate from the court because criminals almost universally have brain problems caused by drug abuse and fucked up childhoods. But the COURT is the one who makes orders, not the psychologists. The court gives criminals to psychologists with the instruction to render the person fit for lawful life. The psychologist just carries out those instructions. No ethical framework is needed for the psychologist, and the law already has one. This issue is not complicated and does not require deep thought.

>>18965558
Where you're going, you won't need meds.

>>18967681
That's simply not true in the wild, whether that is or is not a feature of this particular experiment. Psychiatry has long been known to be rife with misdiagnoses, not fitting public perception in any meaningful respect. Big Pharma simply wants to pump out the pills, and psychiatrists are willing to make reckless diagnoses for people and with pretty much life-ending diseases as long as they don't get sued (see, they want to make a buck), and the way the law has been written pretty much guarantees it. It's a racket, pal.
https://infogalactic.com/info/Rosenhan_experiment

>>18968941
huh?

>>18968915
>They also don't have the power to have people imprisoned or have their most basic rights taken away without trial.
Neither do psychologists.

>"b-b-b-but involuntary treatment orders"
Involve an advocacy process similar to a trial, and can also be challenged in an ACTUAL trial. The reason why this doesn't happen is not because of creeping tyranny but because, in reality, most of the people in ITOs cannot even fucking dress themselves let alone give instructions to a lawyer.

>"muh soldiers"
Are you seriously arguing that Tommy in the trenches at the Somme, conscripted from his home and now ordered to charge German machineguns, is not a victim but is in fact a perpetrator of war? That he deserves his death?

Use your fucking brain.

People participate in institutions and where institutions are corrupt then the participants will be corrupted, but that says nothing about who has agency and who doesn't. It especially says nothing about whether psychologists need extra special super special philosophy to guide the responsible exercise of their non-existent powers.

This is the crux of the matter: psychologists have zero meaningful responsibilities to start with. All they have to do is do what they're paid for. "muh social norms" doesn't enter into the equation, only "who is my client and what does he want me to do?".

That you cannot get this simple customer-provider interaction through your skull boggles my mind. Is McDonald's a tool of social control because it only sells certain menu items? No. It's subject to market forces. The market forces in psychology demand catering to depressed middle class women and declawing criminals, and that's what psychologists do and all they need to do.

>>18968960
wut

>>18968966
>This is the crux of the matter: psychologists have zero meaningful responsibilities to start with. All they have to do is do what they're paid for. "muh social norms" doesn't enter into the equation, only "who is my client and what does he want me to do?".

>>18968931
>>18968931
>My heart fucking bleeds for you, anon. This is the greatest injustice that man has ever suffered. Truly you are the victim of the most monstrous and oppressive tyranny ever to stalk this wretched earth.
this is just a cope and a lie. i really hope you are not a psychologist or psychiatrist. really.
you are saying that court obliges psychiatry to drug people?. it really is so stupid everything. you are desperately washing hands to psychiatry just because you know how dirty they are.
>>18968960
the intellectual authority that a psychologists have over a client is not a levity. you are so pragmatist and mundane that you think only of the "client", but you have tools for that clients, and that tools are an invention and your "client" go to you because he really believe you are a "sscientiific" and knows deeply what is happenned. i think me and the other anon are talking about the discipline of psychology in itself, how is about societal order, and how people go to psychs because its the "scientific truth".

>>18968960
>psychologists don't have the ability to involuntarily commit people
>but involuntarily commitment by psychologists exists and it's good and they deserve it
>psychologists have no power whatsoever
>psychologists have no responsibility whatsoever for their actions because their being paid for them, like a hitman has no responsibility for his actions because he's being paid
>also psychologists have no meaningful responsibilities because their being paid
>orders by the state are market forces and have nothing to do with social control
A fascinating show of mental gymnastics.

>>18968931
>Do you have any fucking idea the kind of stupid shit you have to do to be subject to detention in a secure facility, indefinitely, on a court order? Enemy is an apt word. They are enemies of civilisation, harbouring destructive and violent impulses. We all agree that society should fight enemies, you just don't like the accurate description of non-functional useless parasites who suck up money and do meth all day, which is what 99% of actually mentally ill people actually do.
https://www.news-press.com/in-depth/news/2019/08/21/florida-children-baker-act-record-numbers-mental-health/3247904002/
Also in this post you're literally admitting it's social control but you approve of it because you assume all of it's victims are supposedly horrible people

>>18968960
>Neither do psychologists.
Wrong.

>Is McDonald's a tool of social control because it only sells certain menu items?
Yeah.

>The market forces in psychology demand catering to depressed middle class women and declawing criminals, and that's what psychologists do
Nope, at least on the latter point. Thanks for proving my point though.

Folks, look no further. These are the types of people deciding how much pills to pump out and how much corporate propaganda to match to keep you addicted to adderall and pain medication and haplessly cycling massive amounts of crippling medications to get the right "chemical balance." They simply just don't give a fuck, as long as they get paid.

>>18969019
I accept the point you're making, which is that some people are poorly treated by incompetent doctors; that some research is shoddily done; and that sometime we're just guessing. I also accept the point you're making which is that the trappings of "science!" present the field with a thin veneer of credibility which it does not really deserve. And I further accept that the not so historically distant grotesque, paternalistic, and retributive model of psychology and the very recent (perhaps ongoing), in some ways worse, overly simpering and accommodating, uncritically accepting model of psychology are both incredibly poor ways to understand human behaviour.

However.

When psychologists do these things, they're not acting as agents of the man trying to stamp you with a mould to turn you into worker ID W4G35L4V3. If you are their willing client, they are doing these things because they are trying - perhaps poorly, perhaps incompetently, perhaps criminally negligently - to achieve the objectives you set for them when you bought their services. In a way you are acting as your own agent of social control. And is this so surprising? Why else do people willingly go to see psychologists other than a desire to "fix" the "problems" that are stopping them from being "normal?". Why is it surprising that people want to fit in? And when psychologists are required to treat criminals subject to forensic mental health orders they, again, do these things at the behest of the necessary and accepted true agent of social control, the law. In both cases, what constitutes "effective treatment" is dictated to them externally. The third kind of order, the ITO, is the same. The purpose of an ITO is set out in legislation and those are the relevant criteria that define the objectives of treatment.

Psychologists do not define their own success criteria, therefore how could they be tools of social control in any meaningful way? They're just tools of the court.

>>18969055
Orders by the state are market forces if you contract to provide services to the state, just like when construction companies bid on a contract to build a road.

>Also in this post you're literally admitting it's social control but you approve of it because you assume all of it's victims are supposedly horrible people
Correct, orders by the state are social control and we all agree that the state has that power. Psychologists don't make those orders, though.

>"but ITOs"
Again, ITOs are initiated at the level of the treating doctor but have to be confirmed by the state judicial process - think hard about why that is. It is because, in fact, psychologists are NOT tools of social control, are NOT authorised to detain people, and their actions ARE subject to review by the actual social controllers - the courts. ITOs can be initiated at the treating doctor level as a stopgap response to imminent danger, but the need for subsequent confirmation by a real authority demonstrates the explicit lack of actual authority that the treating doctor has. Not to mention that the purpose of an ITO is set out in legislation anyway, it isn't and can never be just because the doctor thinks you're not "normal" enough.

>>18966956
>while a homosexual's orientation will not directly affect his health
you're gonna want to do some research on this. insane amounts of disease, parasites, maladaptive behaviour like pedophilia, depression, suicide, bpd, self-harm, etc.

>>18969084
>Wrong.
Incorrect. All ITOs are reviewed every 6 months by the Mental Health Review Tribunal, at least in my state. The person subject to the ITO is permitted legal representation and the review process is by way of hearing. They also need to be reviewed within 6 weeks of first being made by the same way.

Psychologists cannot imprison you without a trial in any meaningful sense.

>"McDonald's is oppressing me by not serving vegan free range crickets"
lmao

Folks, look no further. These are the types of people trying to tell you that the state that secures your property and defends your rights from unhinged lunatics and depraved predators is actually your enemy and only wants to hurt you because it doesn't explicitly encourage your diaper fetish enough (remember: tolerance isn't enough!). They simply just don't give a fuck, as long as they get upvotes.

>>18969136
>the American judicial system
>fair and free from socio-political bias
Look at this dude.

>>18969136
>get upvotes
Go back

>>18969136
Listen buddy, you clearly don't know how these places operate. You're thinking in terms of hard cash and legality rather than innuendo, which is in the domain of psychiatry.

>lmao
Not an argument.

>These are the types of people trying to tell you that the state that secures your property and defends your rights from unhinged lunatics and depraved predators is actually your enemy and only wants to hurt you because it doesn't explicitly encourage your diaper fetish enough (remember: tolerance isn't enough!).
Who do you think is pumping out all the HRT? Where do you think this victimhood culture came from? Just where do all these people come from?

>They simply just don't give a fuck, as long as they get upvotes.
You're not clever.

>>18966956
A prolapsed ass hole and shit infections on the penis are pretty bad desu

>>18969055
>>18969114
anyone who has been subject to involuntary incarceration via baker's act/5150/5250 will tell you all about the experience.

90% of the people there are not suicidal or homicidal -- they are addicted to drugs or alcohol, that makes them "a danger to themselves or others" and authorities have had them locked-up. the other 10% are schizophrenic.

you will stay a VERY long time if you have good insurance. a girl who crashed her car into another to kill herself was out in 3 days, i was out in 5 for taking pills and drinking (partying, not suicidal). really makes you think.

>>18963763
Faggots are proof enough that mental illness is real.

>>18969097
>other than a desire to "fix" the "problems" that are stopping them from being "normal?". Why is it surprising that people want to fit in?
this is important if you can understand why they go to you when they are not normal, or when they not feel as normal, and how they going to psych because they think they are the arbiters of what normal or not normal is. and once you get there you can think how a discipline is entirely based in what normal and not normal is have something to do with social control.
>of "science!" present the field with a thin veneer of credibility which it does not really deserve.
i want to remark that pscyhs would have a drastically decline of clients without that veneer of credibility. and i think every psych probably know it. thats the reason they call themselves doctors and have diplomas and never ever recognize they are not better that a guru new age therapist.

and for last. what you have to understand, headstrong guy, is how psychiatry and law work together, this is like saying policeman doesnt have power and doesnt have nothing to do with power. you have to understand, recognize and accept how psychiatry is part of the social controlling force. you are almost wanting to misinterpret that psychiatry is kidnapped by court.

>>18968796
>>18968817
You're proving my point.

>Then sit down and talk it out with him until he does know what he wants, and then help him achieve that.

Only the client can answer that question, and he's in therapy because he can't. At some point, somebody, ideally the client, has to make an ethical prescription, but neither the client nor the psychologist are able to do that here. Psychologists aren't trained to "talk it out" with philosophical questions about what it means to live well. What you're describing doesn't lead anywhere.

Are we going to have the client write a cost benefit analysis? The reason "mental illness" is described as such is because it, like sexual desire, does not conform to reason. In this case, you're dealing with a conflict between the client understanding rationally that this is abnormal and interfering with his ability to cultivate healthy sexual relationships and a sexuality that wants this above all else. Read John Money's clinical observations on his clients with paraphilias. It can lead to a partitioning of the self for this reason, and in this case it's totally unclear to both client and practitioner what the desired outcome ought to be.

Obviously client-centered therapy and positive psychology are improvements, but they revolve around a nebulous concept of eudaimonia that falls apart when it encounters situations like this.

Nobody bothers to do nosology anymore. They need to believe the DSM to justify their own romantic need for trauma and tragedy. Mental (((disorders))) are eternally pingponging between ornamental outgrowth of the therapeutic mentality and discursive creation with real psychic consequences.

>>18968796
>We already have tools for those people, they're called involuntary treatment and detention in a secure ward.
You've missed the whole point

>>18963763
you haven't read the book, if you did you would know he doesn't argue the legitimacy of symptoms

>>18969694
Seems to check out.

>>18963847
This is true. My cousin was a chronic alcoholic, he literally drank day and night. He became so unbearable that his family sent him to a psychiatrist who failed to see his drunkedness and perscribed him some pills. After years of taking pills he ended up retarded. Now he is a 40yo neet who keeps babbling about WW2 nonstop.

>>18968817
>Then your job is to achieve the orders made by the court
>Psychology is not a "tool of social control"

Schizos were the shamans, spiritual leaders, and occultist of the old. They do serve a purpose within a society that does not knowledge them. Heck people of the past knew this, now not so much.

>>18968877
The entire point of the critique is to say that social morality is cloaked in medical language to appear scientific. All you've done is agree with the author about how psychiatry is actually a pseudo science

>>18968960
Some dude in Australia was put into a mental institution for months and forcibly drugged because he said covid is no worse than the flu

>>18964307
>>18967640

Francis Dec. I just found out about this guy yesterday. He is The Godfather of both shitposting and schizoposting. From what I’ve learned so far this guy was mailing the media and the courts these epic schizo shitposts that are completely indistinguishable from posts I’ve seen on 4chan. And not only that but if you listen carefully to the link I posted he is ranting about Globohomo and the Leftwing Authoritarian Surveillance State. He started doing this 50 years ago. Fucking incredible, one of the most incredible things I’ve found on 4chan in a while. It would be easy to write this guy off as paranoid schizophrenic accept for the fact that everyone regardless of political persuasion seems to be at least a little concerned that we are moving in this direction.

Gangster Computer God Worldwide Secret Containment Policy
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yJLhnts9-oQ

>>18969097
>. If you are their willing client,
One major point raised by the author is that psychiatry used to actually operste on a voluntaristic basis where the client was purchasing a private service. He says that model has changed, that psychiatric institutions were becoming a public service where the psychiatrist no longer acted on a basis of personal and voluntary transaction. Szasz has said many times that a private and voluntary psychiatric relationship can be a very positive thing, especially if the client feels like he is being helped

>>18969233
Many police departments now mandate their officers take psych classes and training so they can better able 5150 people. Saw one video of a dude who was being harassed by some cop on a power trip. The guy wisely invoked his 5th amendment right and frequently asked about the status of his detention. If he weren't so level headed the cop would have thrown him into a psych ward

On the other hand, my brother was once making homicidal and suicidal threats to himself and the whole family. He was doing tons of meth, had no grasp on reality, and was self harming. i called the cops. The cops were such fucking cunts. They refused to do anything and even threatened to arrest me. The fags thought they were gonna have an epic shootout with my brother and when they realized they wouldjt get it, they stopped giving a fuck

>>18970318
Good.

>>18968148
You've missed the part where I said the disorder state came from where the mental state led to the inability to care for ones self. Explain how is hypocrisy.

>>18969304
>At some point, somebody, ideally the client, has to make an ethical prescription
Why?

If your client cannot provide you meaningful instructions, drop the client.

>"but he's coming to me for help making decisions in the first place"
No, what he's really coming to you for in that case it have a decision made for him. And, in that case, it doesn't really matter what your decision is. Just flip a coin. Heads you coach him to have healthy adult relationships, tails you coach him to come out to his parents about how he likes to jerk off while sitting in soiled diapers.

>"just flip a coin? leave it up to chance? but what if you make the wrong decision!?"
That presupposes that there is a wrong decision - by which I mean a decision that the client would be unhappy with. And that veers dangerously close to suggesting that client actually DOES have a desired outcome in mind when he walks into the clinic, even if he's too fucking stupid to articulate it himself.

If there is no right decision then who cares how the decision gets made, the outcome is the same. In cases where your client cannot provide you meaningful instructions, why NOT flip a coin?

>>18964108
>I used fancy words, so believe me!
No. Mental illness is a real fucking problem and most of the medications going toward it help much more than they harm. I have experience with this, both in my life and the lives of people I've known. I've met lots of people helped by psychoactive medication and zero people with these supposed reactions to it.

>>18971129
>Mental illness is a real fucking problem
No arguments here.

>most of the medications going toward it help much more than they harm
I disagree.

>No.
Don't take my word for it, they're wearing the lab coat.

>>18964338
Anon even the Catholic and Orthodox churches have serious skepticism when someone claims to hear God, to say nothing of the average American or western European. If it's not real and you don't realize it's not real then it's doing harm regardless of the content or context. Lying to is inherently wrong even if it's you lying to yourself.

>>18971011
because you can say everything you want is inability to care for one self. one thing is when you physically can't move in any direction and another thing is when you have suicidal ideation and a psychiatrist can think your suicidal ideation is inability to care for one self, rejecting the idea of suicide and implying only an illness can make you think in suicide. is just an example. maybe not hipocrisy because psychs really believe in this kind of things, but it is fakeness and enforcement of the societal agreement about how you should care for yourself.

A few points about psychiatry in no particular order
1.) If voices aren't demons, why do they tell people to refuse medication, disrobe, engage in humiliating behaviors, etc? Why do they act so much like how you would expect demons to act if they're just hallucinations?
2) Being treated in a psych hospital is humiliating. The staff don't listen to anything you say, they just translate it into a handful of DSM categories. None of the things that you care about are important to the psychiatrists and everybody looks down on you, except maybe for some of the non-medical staff who probably have mental problems themselves.
3) Socrates heard a voice that would tell him not to do things. This is a classic schizophrenic symptom
4) If you have serious mental illness it's often part of your entire personality. There's no way to take away the symptoms without also seriously altering your personality and this is unacceptable for many people
5) And yet bona fide mental illness is real and has severe consequences (suicide, homelessness, terminal alcoholism, homicide, etc.) And sometimes (usually?) medication is needed. I know this is paradoxical, I haven't figured it out. I just wish psychiatrists had more empathy for why patients go off their meds.
6) The worst part of serious mental illness isn't the illness, it's becoming completely isolated from society, having no friends, often becoming extremely fat from antipsychotics, having no purpose in life, nobody takes you seriously or cares about you, etc

>>18969304
>Only the client can answer that question, and he's in therapy because he can't.
This is bullshit because the client went in seeking help, they have some idea what they want or don't want.
>Psychologists aren't trained to "talk it out" with philosophical questions about what it means to live well.
This is bullshit and I know from experience. All but the most shitty psychologists do actually engage with the question of what's best for a particular patient and their life rather than... whatever it is you think they're prioritizing.

If mental illness isn't real, how come 100% of the people who make posts online about how mental illness isn't real have bipolar 1?

Checkmate.

>>18965592
>the future belongs to philosophy
nice try but no one cares about your meme degree

>>18967189
Clearly you've either never been depressed or you were told to "suck it up" and "cheer up". Depression is not simply being sad. It's an earnest belief that everything and everyone including yourself are all awful and unfixable, or at least would take inhuman amounts of effort to fix by the person looking at them
And yes, that means a huge number of people on this site are depressive. The entire "this board was never good" and "don't forget, you're here forever" mentality screams of being deeply dissatisfied but also feeling like nothing can be done about it.

>>18966891
No hallucinatory aura. Focal aware onset seizures, highly stereotypical, with the unpleasant sensation of being physically struck in the side of my head and sent reeling. Don't know if it's TLE or not, might be deeper brain, as it was incredibly difficult to get properly diagnosed. I had a clear EEG (while not actively seizing), then a clear overnight video telemetry EEG (while actively seizing.) Finally got sent to the national specialist epilepsy ward, where there's more sensitive equipment, had another clear standard EEG (not actively seizing) and then a video telemetry EEG that caught me have over 100 episodes.

I had a series of wild misdiagnoses. First was cardiac. Then panic attacks. Vestibular disease. Back to suspected epilepsy, but after the first clear EEG and failure to respond to anticonvulsants (lamotrigine, then sodium valproate, then levetiracetam) it was actually decided I probably did not have epilepsy and it might be mental illness. So somatoform disorder was suggested, and by this point I'd been having seizures for 6 years. I ended up at a real low point, got committed, and then moped around a psychiatric hospital for a year.

I was finally correctly diagnosed about 2 years after I was discharged from the psychiatric hospital but let me tell you, it was a wild ride. Now I'm in lacosamide, carbamazepine, gabapentin, lorazepam, and topiramate, and I get just enough seizure relief to sleep without being interrupted every 10 minutes by seizures, and that's it. I spend all day having them, but I've reached a sort of acceptance over this. It's only if I start getting seizure-induced sleep deprivation that I start to spiral again.

>>18969084
>>Is McDonald's a tool of social control because it only sells certain menu items?
>Yeah.
oh I see, you're a moron

>>18971327
>moron
Anything but, actually.

>>18969805
then the title is old media clickbait, promising an argument it doesn't make

>>18971161
>one thing is when you physically can't move in any direction and another thing is when you have suicidal ideation and a psychiatrist can think your suicidal ideation is inability to care for one self, rejecting the idea of suicide and implying only an illness can make you think in suicide.
so this is what happens when a /b/ user grows up, they get more complicated ways to try to get people to kill themselves

>>18971123
>Heads you coach him to have healthy adult relationships, tails you coach him to come out to his parents about how he likes to jerk off while sitting in soiled diapers.

Yeah this is my point. If both are equally effective at alleviating the client’s suffering, achieving their respective ends, and the client sincerely has no preference, shouldn’t psychologists as a rule go with the former?

In its most pseudo-medical applications, psychology is narrowly concerned with the negative aim “alleviating suffering”. But if there are two competing ends that would achieve that, wouldn’t we prioritize the one that doesn’t end with this person submitting to their abnormal sexual instincts? Why would we do that?

Even if they’re equally happy, the individual who has learned to express and explore his sexuality in more normative ways is going to be pretty different in at least one way from the individual who fully and proudly embraced his diaper fetish. Most reasonable people would rather be the former than the latter, which suggests an ethical judgement about what people ought to be and how they ought to love.

Sometimes negative goals aren’t always enough. In the case of someone with anxiety that’s causing them to suffer, OK, yeah, sure we should just try to alleviate that. But sometimes it calls for positive goals about what it means to be a person and what people ought to be, and psychologists are increasingly being asked to formulate these.

>>18971479
that's the thing though, in most cases no one can say, so psychologists either go with their own sense of normal or a societally common sense of normal
I'm not convinced you can find fault with either of those, let alone both

>>18972173
Yeah, which is what I'm saying. That's arbitrary moral relativism.

>>18963763
Social constructionism is a blight upon mankind

>>18972273
What does this even mean?

>>18963887
Gay people willingly want to be butt fucked. Most people with schizophrenia don't want to hear the voices

>>18972310
You think gay people wanted to be gay in the 1950's? The popular mythos is that homosexuality was immediately removed from the DSM-V. The reality is that it was immediately replaced with ego-dystonic homosexuality.

>>18970334
A masterclass of schizoposting. There's certainly a clear incentive to discredit these people and shut them up.

>>18971177
>If voices aren't demons, why do they tell people to refuse medication
In many cases that's because that's their subconscious mind telling the patient that the people saying that they're going to help fix the problem that they had diagnosed, are instead trying to dominate them and get them to stuff down their real feelings, as if to become some type of bugman.

>The worst part of serious mental illness isn't the illness, it's becoming completely isolated from society, having no friends, often becoming extremely fat from antipsychotics, having no purpose in life, nobody takes you seriously or cares about you, etc
Psychiatry tends to take those questions and then wraps it around to it stemming from "stigma," and if only people thought of fat people as beautiful, then those complaints would conveniently disappear for them, as a way of avoiding responsibility and passing the buck, as it were. If only they could treat all of society, then every problem in the world would go away, and they'd be rewarded handsomely for all their hard and altruistic work.

>>18971204
>they have some idea what they want
No they don't, the psychiatrist knows for them, and solution just so happens to be medication. The patient is only delusional in the fact that he doesn't already know that. Careful, you wouldn't want to tell him directly to his face, otherwise he might tell you "no." Can't have that.

>>18971267
>Clearly you've either never been depressed or you were told to "suck it up" and "cheer up".
Almost as if that makes people depressed. Silly me, I don't have an MD PhD to prove it, must be those fabled "chemical imbalances." Rats.

>>18972321
>You think gay people wanted to be gay in the 1950's?
No, but only due to it being heavily stigmatized as a mental illness back then.
>inb4 it's the same for schizos
No lol, schizos often are so unable to function even for basic tasks detached from social pressure, that many of them just kill themselves. Is that an objectively harmful mental disorder, or are you unironically going to argue that if society pandered to schizophrenics they would have it better?

>>18972352
Schizos have it worse than homos and trannies today.

>>18970334
Holy shit what a fucken genius, this is crazy

>>18972352
>No, but only due to it being heavily stigmatized as a mental illness back then.
Is that a fact. And those trannies, that's due to stigma too, then.

>are you unironically going to argue that if society pandered to schizophrenics they would have it better
Oh, it might not be so bad. God forbid they start to question the nature of reality a bit. But no, you're right. They're the danger we need to worry about. To themselves. That's it. Best to be on the safe side.

>>18963763
Mental illness is what we call mental illness. In both “old repressive” case and “modern progressive” case it is constructed the same way: by defining the “normal” person who “doesn't need help”, and “abnormal” person who “needs help”. The change from “correction” to “help” is not a principle change, as the system is still widespread, and the borders remain in place. Also, calculated bureaucratized help is not moral personal help (see /lit/'s most popular novel to learn why moral calculations are bad).

Ironically, people who praise the status quo the most are the most wrong. Take homosexuality that has already been mentioned. People really like to celebrate and articulate it's no longer an “illness” — as if something really could “stop being an illness” because some book was printed somewhere. This is an obvious double-edged sword: what if next medical reference said that manlets are terminally ill, would all those people praise the application of respectful euthanasia? Many would, just as eagerly. Those talks don't actually support homosexuals, it's the same exclusion of “abnormals”, just glued to obligatory “we accept you”. This is not the way to reason, the exclusion shouldn't happen in the first place if you are critical, and the system itself should be looked into.

American drug selling machine is an example that needs no additional comments. There is no conspiracy, no inquisition meetings, just people who make some bucks from abusing others' perceived deviation for a little profit. If Apple can make billions from misinformation and get praised, why shouldn't they?

By the way, not only political dissidents with strong personal views were described in terms of illness in Soviet Union. Some doctors invented “metaphysical intoxication” as a diagnosis for those teens and grown ups who pondered and worried too much, asked people deep questions, and believed in problems of society that they had to do something about. Yeah, as all-encompassing as “depression”, but I guess only people in capitalist countries could officially be depressed, so locals had to have a different diagnosis.

The only mental illness that is real as shit is Aimee Mann's album.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCAjDBuUOHs

>>18972720
based Mannposter

>>18968672
Just following up here. Infogalactic is a less corporatized version of wikipedia, most of the info is the same but there's less euphemisms and beating around the bush.

>You can get TD if you take an antipsychotic drug. Usually you have to be on it for 3 months or more. But there have been rare cases of it after a single dose of an antipsychotic medicine.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/tardive-dyskinesia

>>18972352
reminder that szasz have another book called "schizophrenia: the sacred symbol of psychiatry"
and yes, schizos would have immensely better if society understand them, accept them or at least if they trying to do. he even say in one chapter how psychiatrists are just too stupid, scared, and rigidly rational to understand the more poetic and symbolic world and manner of expressing of schizophrenics, so they just reject them as crazy, swallowed them in pills and then they become really retarded. it always go with me the examples he put of the incredibly psychopathic (i know the irony) observations and attitudes of psychiatrists.

>>18963867
Doctors are extremely relaxed about diagnosing depression because SSRIs aren't an abusable drug.

>>18972978
>the incredibly psychopathic (i know the irony) observations and attitudes of psychiatrists.
Unironically they're often some of the sickest people at the ward.

>>18971161
Oh I see what you mean. However you are appealling to how difficult it would be to stop my description being misapplied, which is a logical fallacy. Unfortunately there aren't clear lines drawn in the real world, so, yes, these things become subjective to an extent. This is unavoidable. The majority of the time the problem of whether a mental difference is significant is answered by the fact that the driver for intervention is the patient. The paucity of sensible treatment currently available, again, doesn't negate this.

>>18971313
Oh man that sucks. What country are you in btw?

Normal EEG in seizures is possible for small ones, as I'm sure you know, because at least 6cm square of brain has to seize to cause changes at the scalp. Yours is a cautionary tale for people interpreting EEGs.

>>18963763
>>mental illness isn't real
>Lel tell that to the voices in a schizos head
the schizo would be a shaman in a traditional society, he would have a place and purpose to serve in his community and wouldn't be mentally ill

>>18963914
You’re a retard. Look into how schizophrenia develops. These people get abused and traumatized as children. Perhaps they have some genetic differences too but the manifestation of schizophrenia is CLEARLY a sign of being sick, they struggle to meet their basic survival needs.

>>18973195
You realize “traditional societies” have schizophrenics too dipshit right? The schizophrenic in a trad society is the guy who hears voices 24/7 and violates all the cultural boundaries as compared to only hearing voices during religious ceremonies. Now please explain to me how having all your senses so fucked up out of whack that you struggle to survive without assistance and how being a hinderance to your peers is a good thing (btw the schizos are usually murdered in traditional societies because they cause too many problems)

>>18973154
>>18971011
Because the mental state is a product of its environment.

>>18973220
have you read the book?

>>18973030
i mean in their psychiatric and psychology books. he put examples of psychiatric literature. i can imagine they are still more vicious in psych wards. i always think people who go to psychiatrists and psychologists dont read a real book of psychology in their life. so they go almost blind to that dubious branch of knowledge. like fucking lambs.
>>18973154
>The majority of the time the problem of whether a mental difference is significant is answered by the fact that the driver for intervention is the patient.
this is talked a little before in the thread, and i think your old-fashioned argument is just a form of psychologist to wash their conscience. people go to you because you are the authority, they are not the driver, even if you tell them they are the drivers, they are not the drivers. you make something so subtly manipulative and horrendous when you try to say that people who are jus defeated on themselves and go to a psychologist or psychiatrist because they already dont believe in their own introspective process, and at the same time trying to imply they are the ones who make the therapeutic process. pretty nightmarish power roles you have there. so you have to lie to yourself as a psychologist to think the driver of the therapy are the patients. cult-style. and pretty hipocritical. one more time.

I'm not reading any of this but I want to contribute something actually useful.

Medicine is a regime of control. What the medical institutions have to say should be considered irrelevant because self criticism and criticism of social forces is not within their purview.

Mental illnesses and emotions are expressions of physical illnesses and symbolic external relations, see the somatic marker hypothesis.

A lot of aberrant behaviour (criminality, addiction) is due to the predator response mechanism instigated predominantly by a deficiency in NAD, see James P. Cleary and studies on prison nutrition and violence.

NAD+ is the most important cofactor for cellular energy production. A deficiency in NAD causes a plethora of illnesses including mental illnesses.

Schizophrenia is an actually existing physical syndrome. The prototypical NAD deficiency disease within the psychiatric space.

To cure schizophrenia it's sufficient to restore and maintain cellular NAD+ levels and redox state. The maintenance of which requires a reduction of internal triggers and the promotion of homeostasis and internal robustness. Kraeplin who created the nosology underpinning the DSM and specifically the term dementia praecox was partly right about his insistence on autotoxicity, in modern parlance autotoxicity should be taken to mean auto-immunity - a process which will undermine redox state homeostasis.

Bipolar is a pyruvate dehydrogenase deficiency with multivariate causes but predominantly insulin resistance in the brain, see case reports on ketosis for putting bipolar into remission.

Hysteria and female specific mental illnesses under the MDD umbrella are almost always caused by inflammation due to cervical scar tissue related to childhood sexual abuse or the abortion required to maintain their secrecy. The cervix contains a vagus nerve highway that will carry inflammatory products directly to the brain. These conditions can be cured through anti-biotic treatment of uterus and cryotherapy to remove cervical lesions, see cyclic hysterotoxemia.

Many disease courses are related to tight junction function, presence of zonulins and the cascade from leaky gut to leaky brain. It's sufficient to eat only meat to reverse this conditions and following avoid autoimmune triggers, see Vodjani.

While some things have a genetic basis most all mental illnesses could be cured today if we wanted them to be.

>>18973485
with this way of seeing the world and humans you can cure happiness, spontaneity, rationality, or whatever feeling or behaviour you want. any kind of human response can have a physical materialist approach and eventually be changed with various stratagems. you can change whatever behaviour do you want (well, not entirely but...) with that physical approach. thats the reason why is so important to define what is an illness, which behaviour is bad and which is good. but you, as a good psych, wash your hands and conscience even before to start the debate. so you dont have any ethical responsability or conscience.
>What the medical institutions have to say should be considered irrelevant because self criticism and criticism of social forces is not within their purview.

I have to ask you something real quick. Not shizo but I’m considering theraphy after 5+ years of depression. I’m not killing myself for family reasons, you know the deal, but will they lock me up or tell my family when I keep talking about a longing for death?

SNRIs fixed my psychomotor issues, my MDD is technically a "mental-illness" but it manifests in quite a primitive physiological way.

>>18973485
You have the fervent positivism and 90s pre-connectome neurological understanding of a keen undergraduate. Pump thy brakes.

I have deep interest on the topic, but the thread is already too long and I'm busy af.

Any insights on how to treat or at least interpret what we call as "OCD" from a non-psychiatrical/pushing a shitload of pills up my ass approach? Tried every single one of the prescribed drugs, nothing makes my nerves quiet. The only things that tend to calm the OCD demon down a bit (and not always, in my experience) are meditation (although sometime it's just not possible) and journaling. And fucking Xanax.


(Help)

>>18963763
The definition of mental illness has to change. I'm tired of being grouped with schizos for jerking it to fluffy fourleggers

>>18972978
My brother is schizophrenic and he was a fucking wreck before he started taking meds. Totally disconnected from reality, violent, dangerous. This meme that schizos are ackshually shamans needs to stop

>>18974762
yah, wouldnt call that ill. just that your just a sexual deviant who fetishises something.

I bet you could totally pavlovs dog (sorry) someone into getting a specific fetish/object of erotic focus.

>>18974869
>This meme that schizos are ackshually shamans needs to stop
maybe your brother cast a charm on you to believe this.

>>18974750
try taking a smaller dose. large doses can cause some to become trainwreks. or methyphenidate.

>>18974750
The only way that really worked to combat "intrusive thoughts" for me was to relieve stressors, and yeah, meditation and journaling. Eventually I built up more of a mental defense against them, I can see them coming and block them out if I need to, and then deal with them when I meditate instead. But that took quite a long time of not being anywhere close to a psychiatrist and a lot of time to work on my own general well being.

>>18973268
Ok I am convinced I will need to read the book. As doctors go I am relatively sceptical of psychiatry, and indeed want to see more of it in neurophysiological terms, but I still think that people can, should and will want external therapeutics with mental problems. Whether we consider that illness or not is difficult to argue either way. A case I know of had OCD and took a total of 6 hours to get up from their bed and walk to the table where they ate. They would only move from their bed to the table and back each day because every step was so arduous. All they would do would be wake, eat a single meal, brush their teeth, and return to their bed. Thanks to a wire that repeatedly stimulates their mesial frontal lobe they can now go outside and do other things. Perhaps their introspective process may have one day achieved the same, but for over a decade it had not. I can't see how the same outcome could have been reached without some sort of medicalisation.

>>18974869
i didn't say nothing about shamans. but about how understand them would be so much better. i mean, you don't see people violent and dangerous before?. well, that´s a problem, but disconnected from reality means disconnected from "your" reality. in general people and society tends to ignore or overlook how your "reality" is made of symbols, language and agreement in that symbols and language. i think that was what szasz refer in that tiny chapter i was talking about. that we should maybe make an effort to understand their symbols and not judge them as incorrect.
>have schizos in family. and even when they are better with pills, they are dead inside with them too. if you don't see that dead its because you are too much better with their moods shut.

>>18975028
Yeah no man schizos have always been violent and he had no grasp on the objective reality. Not just the semiotics I use, but actual events arond him. He used to have arguments with fucking Bill O'Reilly and thought Bill was listening to him and responding in real time. He used to take shit out of the toilet and dissect it looking for God knows what. He said his nose used to talk so he went around covering his nose all day. The voices in his head were telling him to do objectively terrible things.
Fuck off with all this bullshit about muh mystical schizos. Find something else to mythologize

>>18963867
I saw a psychologist who "diagnosed" me with "persistent depressive disorder" and tried to get me on SSRIs after three sessions, which you obviously become neurologically dependent on. I wasn't depressed at all and I never tried to get my primary care to prescribe them.

In hindsight, I understand that the problem was very obviously having an unhealthy attachment to a relationship with someone who was extremely mentally ill, stringing me along, and had convinced me that I needed to go to therapy. But the therapist was very quick to try to fit me into the box that he's accustomed to fitting patients into.

I remember one session where I described the stress that the relationship was causing me and he just looks over and says, "Suffering." And I guess that he was well-intentioned in trying to make me feel as though my feelings were being perceived as valid, but it also made his pre-conceptions about the discipline and my condition obvious.

>>18975073
Yeah they're out there for sure. The problem seems to be coming in when society casts such a wide net as to rope people with smarts and spirituality and dissident attitudes in with the people that do what you were describing. Nobody's saying mental illness doesn't exist here, or if they are I'm unaware of it. The fact that "schizo" has become a meme and that people have started conflating the two is indicative of a larger problem.

>>18973485
I don’t have the knowledge of neurochemistry to either refute or confirm any of this, but there’s a very interesting, rare, but also crank-ish (admittedly) book that gets into some of this. When I read stuff like this, it’s obviously critically and not believing 100% of it, it’s just to keep updated on what the schizos are saying and to read extremely unconventional information and hypotheses mainstream sources don’t bring up. He raises the hypothesis that in modern Western industrialized society, a lot of people have something called “miminal brain dysfunction” or “minimum brain damage” (MBD), which is exactly what it sounds like. It’s not a difficult concept to understand. It’s brain damage that does not appear as major or obvious brain damage that will show up in an MRI, require instant hospitalization, et cetera.

He thinks this is from basically anything and everything, including adjuvants in vaccines given to us as children, fluoride (“oh no, he’s anti-fluoride AND and an anti-vaxxer! Take meds schizo” etc.), toxins in processed food and the modern diet (this is actually admissible by most, at least), pharmaceutical run-off in the water, in paint, even something as simple as fumes from gasoline, mercury and lead and other heavy meats being deposited in the strangest sources then straight into your body, modern forms of electromagnetic radiation (this is written decades ago — he’s not a 5G conspiracy theorist, too, don’t worry, and he doesn’t recommend wearing a tinfoil hat), various medications we take, and so forth.

So he claims that when MBD reaches a certain threshold, children, teens, and young adults can get diagnosed with ADHD, depression, anxiety, schizophrenia, and so forth. Then, ironically, this can be treated and profited off of with Big Pharma’s psychiatric medications. A similar case is made for physiological diseases such as MS (multiple sclerosis), many types of cancer, and so forth. He gives the verifiable statistics about how, for instance, all this stuff like ADHD, anxiety, depression, etc., has been steadily rising in the Western population for decades, as have cancer and other illnesses. (When I tell braindead friends this, they just make a soi-face and go, “What’s your source for that?”, then next they go, “It’s because we’re getting better at diagnosing it.”)

Then the same diseases massive industrial, chemical, and pharmaceutical corporations apparently may or may not have made, are profited off of by pharmaceutical corporations with subtly debilitating medications

>>18975130
We are saying “mental illness” doesn’t exist. Szasz’s entire point is that it’s a metaphor. Do people hear voices? Yes. Can that be accurately described as “mental illness”? No.

>>18975135
I forgot to mention one of the best ones — autism has been steadily rising for decades now, too! Dramatically. Hugely. Again, soi-face people go, “It’s because we’re better at diagnosing it, it’s not from vaccines or anything.” Valerian goes, “Well, actually, it could me MBD (minimum brain damage) from various sources...” Then he gets into the historical and political connections, such as the Rockefellers, for instance, simultaneously being huge in banking, oil (Standard Oil), Big Pharma, politics (the Council on Foreign Relations, the United Nations, having worked as US Vice Presidents, governors, and so forth), to the World Health Organization, the international nonprofit NGO called the Population Council, and maybe even more.

Then he gives the simple hypothesis: “Suppose the nexus of Big Pharma with industrial and chemical corporations with politics with international NGOs has decided to do all this as a means of population control and reduction while profiting off of it. Capitalist genocide, a soft form of Nazi, communist, or fascist genocide — so subtle and slow the people don’t even notice it. Making everything poisonous by design, reducing the population slowly. Make people sick, and then sell them the cure.”

>>18974903
A smaller dosage would have zero impact on me. The shit thing is that I'm starting to feel the side effects of taking Xanax daily. My speech is getting more and more retarded; I can't express myself properly anymore, neither in my mother tongue nor in english. My brain feels foggy the whole day when I'm not obssessing over some shit.

OCD is hell.

>>18974974
It's gotten to a point that I have to imagine myself making a bubble for the thought, and after labeling it, I send it through a pipe that leads to a fire, which ultimately destroys the obsessive thought. I know it sounds schyzo but it gives me SOME TEMPORARILY RELIEF. How do you meditate? Journaling has been a journey of self discovery actually. I'm really enjoying it.

Thank you, anons, for taking your time to respond to my comment.

>>18973552
it’s time anon

>>18975199
If anyone’s bothering to read my posts, Valerian also gets into stuff like this in his Matrix series. It’s very kooky stuff but he basically talks about the paradigm shifts Western society has gone through, which you can see even in psychology. Psychology used to be a subset of philosophy and not a uniquely defined field. Plato and Nietzsche alike were regarded as valid authorities, at times, on psychology. Then you had the revolution of Freud, Jung, and Adler who turned it into the unique field of psychotherapy, all in drastically different ways, of course. (I’m making huge leaps and connections here and glossing over stuff and name-dropping a lot of people, so be patient with me.) Then you have Skinner himself and behaviorism, whom you just brought up. Valerian, basically, paints this as the move towards the reduction of the human being to merely neuro-chemical and physiological responses, a robot, a machine and nothing more. To use the kooky New Age term, he calls it a “paradigm shift.” Freud did it in a reductionist way, Skinner was even worse (not meant to start an argument, since you’re probably here already with the “take meds, schizo” or “hahaha, soul, emotions, psyche, thoughts, and personality? Those can be hand-waved away, it’s all just stimulus-response conditioning” that you’ve gotten from Skinner) about this, in Valerian’s view.

In medicine, you have a similar trend. The four humors, Paracelsus cheerily combining medicine with alchemical, herbalist, and mystical theories, Franz Anton Mesmer’s theories about animal magnetism, and so forth. Now “debunked,” “pseudoscientific,” or even “pre-scientific,” of course, but Valerian brings up the simple, verifiable fact that sometimes these “quacks,” “cranks,” and “frauds” somehow got good results at times and even — this is too far out for most people, off their reality-map, and will probably quickly blow their brain-cells — seem to have been tied to paranormal phenomena, extrasensory perception, and the like.

So Valerian basically makes the very simple point, “Suppose that by defining the soul, paranormal phenomena, the non-physical aspects of the human being, and extrasensory perception as off-limits for research, simply stuff for kooky people, cult leaders, and the religious to talk about, we actually cut it out of human life?” And his hypothesis is that this is exactly the point. It’s done psycho-socially, too. By teaching people that they are machines and nothing more, they become machines who can be more efficiently processed.

This turned into /pol/-meets-/x/ a little bit, that’s a trait I trend to bring into /lit/ a little too much, but there it is.

>>18965558
HRT, take it. now

>>18975282
How does it tie into Szasz? Szasz tries to get beyond this modern paradigm of how we discuss mental health and illness by at least bringing up that in some cases, the “mentally ill” are simply those different from and not conforming to society in the way expected of them, and then this can be treated with medication and therapy, supposedly. So if drug use, shopping, gambling, etc., goes too far at some subjectively defined point which psychologists refused to admit is more subjective than they think — it’s now “substance abuse disorder,” “gambling addiction,” “shopping addiction,” “mania,” and the like. If sadness goes too far, it’s “depression,” and so forth.

Valerian and Szasz both agree in saying, “Physician, heal thyself. Consider how enlightened and authoritative you really are for going through the Western education system which precisely only rewards conformity to its own teachings. Creativity, dissent, and argument is OK only in the guidelines that WE give you. Go too far, flip over the whole gameboard, criticize the whole thing, and you are now the heretic, the crank, the conspiracy theorist, the witch to be burned at the stake.”

>>18963820
its not

>>18975192
>It's gotten to a point that I have to imagine myself making a bubble for the thought, and after labeling it, I send it through a pipe that leads to a fire, which ultimately destroys the obsessive thought.
When I started off, I was using techniques like that.

>How do you meditate?
I really just breathe and watch what comes up. Eventually the right techniques click into place. Most of what I've learned from it has come from experience. You want to focus on breath, but not too much, and you want to let your thoughts pass through but you don't want to reproach yourself if you get stuck on them, et cetera. It has given me some fascinating insights, helped strengthen my psychological fortitude.

>Journaling has been a journey of self discovery actually. I'm really enjoying it.
That's helped more than any therapist, for me. Just being able to work things out on my own, without anyone else's input. A good place to dump the thoughts. They're not going anywhere.

Lots of what looked like OCD for me was a result of being nagged, actually. Being around abusive people that told me to stuff my feelings down and focus on things that didn't matter to me. Not really let me work out things on my own.

>>18975282
You should actually read Skinner, anon. He wasn’t saying “emotions aren’t real”, he was saying “in accordance with scientific principles, the scope of psychology should be limited to things that are observable and measurable”. In this case, that’s behavior, which is in reality very amenable to being described, explained, and modified per Skinnerian principles. In practice, that’s far more humane than the medicalization of the human condition that Szasz is describing.

>>18968399
do mental illnesses have to be genetic diseases though

>>18975314
HRT and trannies are an extension of this problem of overdiagnoses. If anyone's been around a leftist university in the past ten years, it might become apparent that there's just as much of an incentive to manufacture false positives when it comes to trannies as it does with schizophrenia or something else that could be treated with drugs. It's very much like drinking the kool-aid.

>>18975282
And by the way, this obviously ties into the possibility, somewhat of a cliche by now, that the schizophrenic in Western society is quite similar to the shaman or well-adjusted person in an aboriginal society. Now, supposing some of these shamans actually learn how to do “magic”, talk with spirits, and develop capabilities beyond what Westerners know how to do or think is even possible, precisely because they have societal mechanisms in place for teaching the gifted ones who to deal with these difficult phenomena?

Then the Siberian or Amerindian or Tibetan Bon shaman or sorcerer would actually turn out, in a sense, to be more advanced than the skeptical atheist/agnostic scientific Westerner, sociologist, psychologist, or whomever-you-will studying their societies from a distance as if they were “enlightened superior objective observers and analysts of these people.” And then there’s the majority of stupid Christians, Muslims, and Jews also viewing this as, “Just some backwards heretical nonsense,” going to church and praying, but not actually experiencing any magic in their lives.

The abuse of psychiatry in the Soviet Union to label dissenters as insane — did you know both the CIA and the KGB studying extrasensory perception at around the same time as a means to try to get one up on each other? Did you know some unclassified studies and files suggest they actually got some results, but obviously didn’t publicly parade and broadcast them around? But then imagine a modern Westerner dealing with some of these difficult phenomena and wrecking their lives, and the psychiatrist going, “You’re obviously in a manic state from bipolar disorder, or schizophrenic, or etc.” This could end up being the same political abuse of psychiatry as went on in the Soviet Union, but in such a way we’re so used to that we don’t even view it as a potentially political abuse of psychiatry.

Not even the psychiatrists would view it as being political. Because they don’t know about the CIA and KGB covering up this research on stuff like ESP.

>>18975343
I might, just to be more informed on a worldview outside my scope and that I don’t necessarily have to fully agree with to learn from. Thanks for the response. A simple rebuttal would be, “There are precisely things in the human experience which can’t be measured or quantified, and making it all about behavior is simply about conforming to the paradigm of making everything easier and simpler for the leaders so humans can be processed like machines.” As the saying goes, The personal is the political. Valerian & co. would argue that Skinner’s behaviorism and giving credence to it is, in a sort of Hofstadterian loop, a psycho-social contribution to turning society itself into a Skinner box. Do you get what I mean? But it could be a useful tool in a toolbox as part of a holistic, well-rounded person’s view about psychology instead of being the sole lens to view everything through.

>>18968399
We’re not sure whether homosexuality is genetic but, assuming it is, this is explained by the kind gay uncle hypothesis. The theory is that if your lineage has a gene that causes homosexuality and activates rarely, it can be advantageous to survival because the offspring of that family have more resources, protection, etc through an uncle who can’t have children of his own.

>>18975393
>This could end up being the same political abuse of psychiatry as went on in the Soviet Union, but in such a way we’re so used to that we don’t even view it as a potentially political abuse of psychiatry.
Whereby it being intentional corruption or negligence honestly doesn't matter altogether too much. I guess I just have a hard time believing people fuck up that astronomically on a routine basis. Oh and by the way, nobody knew the Stasi existed after the fall of the Berlin Wall, and they used gaslighting techniques all the time. Really makes you think.

>>18975334
There's a thing that has been helping me when I become too obsessed over something: I started to recognise the "voices" - you know they're not voices, they're more like suggestions, sometimes images - and seeing patterns, as if characters were inside me telling me to keep up with the compulsions; it usually goeslike "do 'x' again, or else..."; I then focused on the "or else" part. From there, writing the seeming relations helped me understandd a lot that, in fact, whenever I felt attacked for no reason what was being in fact attack was the pride of a persona I had built for myself. What what persona was that? How did I surfice in the first place? The questions presented themselves, and I went along...

People who struggle with OCD will know this is not a schyzo rambling. I got deep in my self discovery, and intend to go further.

I will stick to meditation from now on. I'll try it the next time I feel the need of taking another pill.

Thanks, anon.

>>18963763
Mental illness is reptilian gas lightning. They torture people until they need pacification then feed them drugs in the best case, but usually brain acid. It's one thing to arrange circumstances to frighten people but to bind Phoenician sailors to people, evil and for what? What happens if you stop torturing me? Be honest

>>18975441
Based schizopost, basically what I’ve been saying in these rants about Valerian and Szasz but in a much shorter way.

Itzhak Bentov, the genius Russian inventor and mystic, suggested that if you wanted to find the most evolved modern human beings — literally at the forefront of or more evolved than most human beings — look in mental hospitals. They could be seeing ghosts, lights, hearing voices, communicating with the universe/God/Jung’s collective unconscious in a strange way, whatever you want to call it, then get called insane by the family, friends, and doctors.

Nikola Tesla? He’s regarded today as “somewhere on the autistic spectrum” even though he was a genius with huge amounts of energy he poured into his research. Also claimed to have telepathically communicated with aliens at times. Tinfoil hat, crank-ish, but think about this — think about how “take meds, schizo,” is itself the stereotypical response on 4chan(nel) to anyone who colors too far outside the lines.

Did you know MK-Ultra also studied ESP, too? Did you know the same hallucinogens they studied, or similar hallucinogens to them, are also used by shamans to investigate ESP?

>>18975420
That’s not a rebuttal, it’s a possible application of behaviorism. Behaviorism is a tool with no ethical ends in and of itself. Splitting the atom isn’t inherently bad, but using that discovery to kill thousands of people with thermonuclear weapons is.

Skinner didn’t believe the entirety of human inquiry should be narrowly limited to the observable and measurable, but that scientific inquiry should be limited to things that can be scientifically understood. He was happy to relinquish the exploration of the human soul to philosophy and the arts, where it’s been for thousands of years.

Never let them make you think you’re crazy for talking to aliens, being the second coming of Jesus, hearing the voices, and seeing into the future, anon.

PKD’s VALIS is also an amazing book about all this type of stuff I’m talking about. He was a genius, a drug addict, but also insane, but also somehow experienced paranormal phenomena and ecstatic mystical experiences while waking and sober, and it simultaneously wrecked and glorified his life.

>>18975440
>People who struggle with OCD will know this is not a schyzo rambling. I got deep in my self discovery, and intend to go further.
No, I know exactly what you're talking about. Meditation has helped me to understand those are not so bad after all, it's just stress coming up in the form of disturbing thoughts. Eventually I just learned to let them pass through, no matter how scary they got. Any medical technique thus far applied has severely backfired, actually. Really, the only thing that helped was spirituality; and in fact, questioning one's sanity in many cases is really the only thing that resembles insanity after all. It hurts to strike oneself or be struck like that.

>Thanks, anon.
You bet. Watch out coming off of Xanax though, last I checked that was a benzo and you don't want to do that too quickly.

>>18975478
Ah, exactly what I meant, but in another way. Behaviorism itself is neutral, it’s in how you use the tool. The same hammer that can be used to kill and hurt someone as a weapon, could also be used constructively, or even not used at all. That’s basically the same as what I’m saying. Point duly accepted and I might pick up a book of Skinner just for fun.

>>18975504
Yeah, but so is all science. In Walden Two, he describes a utopian community managed through behaviorism. You can object to the purported to ends of the community, but Skinner makes it clear that he views it as a technology: the community’s ethical ends are taken as a priori, and behaviorism is a way to get there.

>>18975501
>No, I know exactly what you're talking about (...) Really, the only thing that helped was spirituality

So relieving to hear that. And I agree with the second part.

>Watch out coming off of Xanax though

I'll make sure I don't do that in a stupid way.

Thanks again. Stay safe. God bless you.

>>18975555
Checked and cheers. Godspeed.

>>18975535
Exactly, also my point. And it’s a possibility — but it’s also why Aldous Huxley wrote “Brave New World”. Basically, Skinner & (you)’rs point is, “If people love their servitude, it’s perfect. It’s not really servitude. Everyone is happy.” Huxley, as an artist, simply had the silly point that there might be someone like John the Savage who doesn’t want to acquiesce simply because he doesn’t want to acquiesce. Non serviam. Even a sort of masochism — wanting the risk of suffering, because it also gives the possibility of types of ecstasy and joy unknown by the “sane,” “normal” people. Nietzsche’s Last Man is exactly relevant to this, too, as is Dostoevsky’s story of the Grand Inquisitor, even, strange as it sounds — assuming the Roman Catholic Church met the second coming of Jesus, they would deny him. Assuming the Skinnerian utopia met someone offering to show them a higher way of life than they were living, they would invertedly deny it and cast him out as insane or a threat to them.

To put it as simplistically and childishly as possible, there’s the simple possibility of BOREDOM with all this.

>There will be, in the next generation or so, a pharmacological method of making people love their servitude, and producing dictatorship without tears, so to speak, producing a kind of painless concentration camp for entire societies, so that people will in fact have their liberties taken away from them, but will rather enjoy it, because they will be distracted from any desire to rebel by propaganda or brainwashing, or brainwashing enhanced by pharmacological methods. And this seems to be the final revolution
Aldous Huxley

>“It is time for man to fix his goal. It is time for man to plant the seed of his highest hope.
>His soil is still rich enough for it. But this soil will one day be poor and weak; no longer will a high tree be able to grow from it…
>I tell you: one must have chaos in one, to give birth to a dancing star. I tell you: you still have chaos in you.
>Alas! The time is coming when man will give birth to no more stars….
>Behold! I shall show you the Last Man…
>No herdsman and one herd. Everyone wants the same thing, everyone is the same: whoever thinks otherwise goes voluntarily into the madhouse.
From “Thus Spake Zarathustra”

>>18971177
Underrated post & acknowledged. I’d have a beer with you. I’m the one who’s been semi-schizoposting about Val Valerian.

>>18975429
Yes, exactly. The same thing is going on today in monopoly capitalist society, with addition of PC/“cultural Marxist” brainwashing. “Don’t look into what the CIA did and has done, that’s for tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists.” Recently it’s even become, “It’s far-right misinformation.” Look at the Capitol riot, how they belittle and downplay them by bringing up how various of the ones who were arrested (such as “QAnon shaman”) struggled with mental illnesses that might give them some more leniency.

You call dissenters dangerous, and if they’re not dangerous, then they’re pitiful, helpless babies, ill, to be treated. The totalitarian liberal nanny state.

>>18975712
>You call dissenters dangerous, and if they’re not dangerous, then they’re pitiful, helpless babies, ill, to be treated. The totalitarian liberal nanny state.
Right. I mean last I heard some people are getting put on HRT for more lenient sentencing, perhaps Turing could power one of his machines with the rolling over in his grave. It's really just an exercise in soft power. They're just trying to constantly have it both ways. It's a particularly feminine, passive sort of aggression. As long as people don't take something seriously enough, it'll just go away, they think. As long as they call someone schizo or possessed by the Devil enough, they're wrong. Trying to "fix" people, as it were.

>>18973020
>relaxed
they go out of their way to get you on any drug

>>18975619
We’re talking about differing assumptions among different types of therapy, though, not how the entirety of human civilization ought to be structured.

>>18975488
What do you think of my book pairing? I bet i could make a schizo stack if I wanted to dig through what I got

>>18975488
>>18976407
Wow i'm retarded. Meant to post pic rel

>>18968828
>le sad millennial lamenting over wasted youth
ha get fucked faggot. i'm 18 years old and already own my own house.

>>18975282
Sounds like an elaborate criticsm of positivsm

>>18975393
Gives me a really good book idea. I've always liked the idea of mixing a mythcial/magical world with a modern scientific world. A book about the supernaturally gifted being hunted, controlled, and corralled by a corrupt dystopian government. Fuck it would be kino. I wish could write

>>18975421
>gay uncle hypothesis
Ah yes the gay uncle molesting his nephew. I believe it

>>18975421
>We’re not sure whether homosexuality is genetic but
sure we are
it's not

>>18976410
Not him, but it should make it possible to take PKD more seriously. If you really like Phil and his schizo ramblings,check out his Exegesis. The whole thing makes him look like a prophet.

>>18976748
>check out his Exegesis
I listened to the first few hours on audio book, I had to stop because I started thinking like a madman.

>>18974573
Nice obfuscation. There have been better attempts.

>>18975135
>>18975190
I'll read this.

Salvestrols and cancer is also quite interesting. It's odd that there have never been clinical trials.

>>18976410
Don't forget A Clockwork Orange and One Flew.

>>18976770
Sounds like it's working.

>>18976708
I agree that it's most likely not. I'm just responding to somebody asking how people believe it is rationalize that.

>>18976407
>>18976410
You’d need to have some truly idiotic tinfoil hat shit like Julius Evola for it to be considered schizo.

>>18977062
What else is essential /schizo/?

>>18977062
>>18977186
I gave away my copy of The Metaphysics of War. I need more /schizo/ core to complete my stack

>>18977287
>The Metaphysics of War
would you recommend it? synopsis looks comfy

>>18977311
You should read it an immediately watch Excalibur right after.

>>18977287
That's honestly more than I've got. Looks like I need to get reading, picked up a Szaz book the other day but it wasn't the one in OP.

>>18977351
Which one did you get? Some of his titles look really interesting. I'm not sure which to get next

>>18977358
Whichever one they had at the store. Lots of aphorisms in it, looked like it would be a smooth enough read. Seems like a topic that's more ripe for exploration than fully fleshed out just yet, you know what I mean?

>>18977394
Whats the title

>>18977398
The Untamed Tongue.

>>18974750
NAC, anecdotally, seems to help with compulsive behavior. Worth a try at least, even if it ends up not working.

>>18975282
>, “Suppose that by defining the soul, paranormal phenomena, the non-physical aspects of the human being, and extrasensory perception as off-limits for research, simply stuff for kooky people, cult leaders, and the religious to talk about, we actually cut it out of human life?”
This is one of the prevailing themes of Mason and Dixon, give that a read if you ever have the time for a doorstopper and the interest.

>>18966956
>a homosexual's orientation will not directly affect his health
What are the STD rates of fags vs straights again? Please remind me.

>>18977287
Maybe we should make a schizocore chart.

>>18968828
> Text says the coma lasted almost 20 years
> Assume when you wake up you will be x years old when you could just as easily be y years old because the text doesn't specify your age (just that you've been in a coma for almost 20 years)
> Goes ahead and assumes they will be 10 years old when they wake up for some reason
> Mfw anon has been in a coma for about ten years before he was born

>>18977322
added to the shortlist. i've already seen excalibur though.

>>18977610
Oh wow yeah, good point, thanks. I actually read it a long time ago, and Gravity’s Rainbow, I’m pretty sure, brings up stuff like this, too. In Mason & Dixon, I remember the comparison of the border they’re drawing to Chinese acupuncture, meridians traced across the body ... and the end the semi-surrealistic passages about the dreams of UFOs and the like. The talking dog who’s a fortune-teller, I think — wow! It’s been so long since I’ve read it that it’s worth reading again. Thanks for reminding me.

>>18975199
thanks for the recommendation. im just reading it now and its fucking mind blowing... this guy is comic villain tier. how someone can be so naive and evil at the same time?. it have the self awareness of a duck.

>>18977734
That preferences are associated with disease does not make the preference a disease. Red meat eaters get ass cancer to a higher degree, does not imply meat eating is a disease.
This is basic conceptual analysis, stop being a retard.

>>18964108
Good. Based psychiatrists are the only ones practicing eugenics in medicine. This clearly signals there is something wrong with them and should serve as a sign they shouldn't reproduce.

>>18977270
Test

>>18976998
Have fun. Very dense book, almost reads like a textbook at times (had to skim over some of the amazingly detailed pharmaceutical history), but then all of a sudden has some mind-blowing historical facts and unexpected redpills. He of course includes stuff like Project MK-Ultra, the Tuskegee Syphilis experiments, and so forth, in it.

>>18977287
>pkd

That's more /stroke/ core.

>>18963763

the auther is a libertarian. it's not surprising he would hold such a position

>>18978947

author*

>>18963763
Explain this

>>18978997
Hmm, reminds me of…

By the way, "race theory face book" didn't give me the expected results.

>>18963786
>message comes in the form of viewing a meme on a mongolian basket weaving forum

>>18963887

I love you anon and I'm sorry that Poe's Law has destroyed your post and all replies to it.

>>18963786
>wake up from coma as a natsoc

>>18963763
I'm literally in the prodromal phase of a psychosis. It's a gift and this rotten world has convinced all of us that it isn't because it decreases muh productivity
My literature is on a whole other level now (and no, it isn't incoherent. Even normies have liked it)
The "worse" the symptoms are, the better my metaphors and storytelling. The less I'm able to think in the normie-way, the better my artistic thinking becomes

>>18973189
New Zealand. At least my health care was free.

>>18978997
Then ADD would be a brain illness, not a "mental illness".

>>18963763
Mental illness only comes from not being able to control your thoughts. Like... just think of something that makes you happy. Of course if you aren't able to do this, you will say you are depressed.

>>18978747
Edgy.

>>18979356
>It's a gift and this rotten world has convinced all of us that it isn't because it decreases muh productivity
Yeah, it's a really sad thing, man.

>My literature is on a whole other level now (and no, it isn't incoherent. Even normies have liked it)
>The "worse" the symptoms are, the better my metaphors and storytelling.
It's kind of like the forbidden fruit of tapping into your soul. The whole world will say "anything but that," until you actually do it against its wishes. The problem really seems to come in when people need to amass any kind of resources; if you're prevented from doing so, then people's diagnosis of your crazy really becomes harder to fight. You wind up just digging yourself a hole. If you've got money and social status to tell them to fuck off, then all of a sudden you don't seem so crazy anymore.

It's possible to schizopost for a minute or two and see where your mind takes you and then snap back to commonly accepted reality the next, if you know what you're doing. People are just really eager to call someone they don't understand insane, and once they do, it's something that's very difficult to fight. There's really not much you can say to convince them, that in fact no, they are the delusional ones. At the end of the day it's more about who's got the money and who holds the keys to the ward.

>>18968877
>You can quibble about it further if you want, I don't care. The point is that psychologists do nothing of their own accord and they don't need to generate their own ethical framework because they are simply fulfilling objectives set by customers.
What about the psychologists that are part of influential psychological think tank groups which are often utilized to design policy and ways to manufacture public consent?

>>18980380
Reminds me of After Virtue. The psychologist working for the manager

>>18980380
take your meds schizo

Psychiatry got ruthlessly called out ITT. I guess all that's left is to pray for the souls of those poor sonsabitches that got consumed by its unrelenting quest for material power and wealth; and I suppose to read and write a bit more here and there.

>>18975135
QRD on that book

>>18981616
No

>>18975393
All that stuff can be true without magic. If you know what the CIA really does you would know its not necessary and "difficult phenomena" doesn't have to be MKULTRA it could just be cope for living in clown world.

The Shaman isn't better or more advanced they are just different and read signs and symbols in a way that doesn't correspond to their society. Really everyone is schizophrenic, in that they perceive the split between object and signs as invisible, and the schizo is simply pointing it out. They transcend the social limits of language which is unacceptable in modern culture.

>>18972914
Thank you for the info anon.
>>rare cases of it after a single dose
Thank you for the link to this as well. I was not aware it happened to some people even after a single dose. Tardive dyskenesia is rather common in those on these medications for a very long time.

Would you happen to know if the book in OP goes over the clinical effects of medication? If so, it would be far ahead of its time.