/lit/ - Literature

You don't. You become the Ubermensch.

>>18951078
More like the Shadow.

>>18951130
Sorry I am a White male.

>>18951058
It is now time to take the Islam-pill.

>>18951058
Ignore him?

he btfo'd himself when he had a schizophrenic break and cried in the streets over a horse
some ubermensch

>>18951294
Christian propaganda.

>>18951309
tacit admittance that nietzsche's mental illness detracts from the validity of his theories

you decide god does exist
or something resembling god
and that hes a piece of shit
then shitpost about a stupid god that you dont believe in
until some hermetic gnostic tells you about the pleroma, sophia, and the demiurge.
you then spend the rest of your life obsessing about trees.

>>18951186
>It is now time to take the Islam-pill.

>>18951058
Nietzsche's criticisms of "Christianity" throughout his works almost always apply exclusively to Western Christianity. We Orthodox Christians can actually agree on a lot of Nietzsche's criticisms, they're the same criticisms we have of Western Christianity.

>>18951341
Wise and gnosticpilled

>>18951058
>How does one come back to Christianity after pic related?
Like a graverobber.

>>18951058
The hubris it takes to believe this is unimaginable. A religion survives subversion attempt after subversion attempt for 2,000 years, always producing intellectuals who systematically deconstruct detractors but it's only after thousands of years that some random mentally ill freak comes out of nowhere and FINALLY caps the Faith off. It would be like me, a nobody, coming along and saying that I've finally disproven physics after it's 4,000 year run.

>>18951343
Interesting. Please elaborate.

>>18951394
>hubris
Why are Christtards so edgy?

>>18951058
One of the basic misunderstandings you see a lot with regards to Nietzsche is that his arguments rendered Christianity somehow untenable and therefor reestablishing it would require defeating Nietzsche's arguments. But Nietzsche was reacting to a world in which Christian faith had already withered and died under the scientific gaze of the enlightenment. He didn't expect that people would read him and say "Oh, of course he's right, Christianity is silly." He observed that it had self-evidently become silly. He stated what should have been obvious to all as a condition of modernity.

>>18951394
Nietzsche didn't try "disprove" Christianity because it was already dying by the time he was writing. He was critiquing its moral system.

>>18951332
That means it would detract the validity of the papacy considering many of the popes had mental illnesses

>>18951450
>That means it would detract the validity of the papacy considering many of the popes had mental illnesses
Yes, read Calvin.

>>18951464
>Calvin
Was a schizo.

>>18951490
how so?

I am so tired of the Christian larpers on this board. It never ends.

>>18951512
the muslim ones are a lot more offensive to me imo, at least the christians sometimes talk about books but the muslims just go on about how it will take over and how it is heckin' based because it btfo's womarinos and atheistos

>>18951499
All Christians are schizos

>>18951394
>hubris bad
>appeal to authority and longevity
>t.

>>18951394
>FINALLY caps the Faith off.
Your book literally predicts the appearance of the antichrist and you're confused about Nietzsche's take here? The only way up is through

>>18951539
>>18951567
amazing that these lads have no arguments, yet keep posting!

>>18951058
Nietzsche is one of the least convincing arguments against Christianity, though. There's not really any accusation of faulty logic or anything, just basically poetry about how being a life affirming warrior dude is better. Hell, the problem of evil in the Book of Job is a more convincing argument than Nietzsche

>>18951757
missing the point that hard, holy christcuck

Why did Nietzsche have syphilis?

>>18951058

>>18951058
Christian gnosticism was and is the real danger to "Christianity".

>>18951058

>>18951058
What are the fruits of this philosophy? Going insane & becoming a vegetable?

>>18951937
Bacterial infection

Legitimate question because I haven't read Fried Rich: how did he btfo Christianity? What's his main argument?

>>18952180
See >>18951440 and >>18951441
He never saw himself as BTFOing it, he saw it as like the family guard dog that's already lying dead on the floor, the question is not what killed the dog but more why the dog was necessary in the first place and what shall be done in absence of the dog

>>18951058
Start with Zoroastrianism, to through Buddhism and back to Christinaty. Nigga laid a trap.

>>18952223
How did the enlightenment btfo Christianity then? Weren't many Enlightenment figures Christian? Like Descartes and Kant.

>>18952266
They were yes, and he talks about this (what he calls prejudice) at some length especially in Beyond Good and Evil, but regardless of these key philosophical figures, the enlightenment and subsequent scientific revolution severely eroded any spiritual belief in the common man. That general spirit of materialism and reflexive, unconscious atheist nihilism is what he was reacting to, in the same vein as a triage medic reacts to the most severe wound in the room.

>>18952276
>the enlightenment and subsequent scientific revolution severely eroded any spiritual belief in the common man
How though? If those key figures didn't do anything to negate the faith how would that translate to the common man getting that out of it?

>>18952305
because more and more the world was conceivably reducible to mechanical elements, forces and substances that could be defined and scoped. signs and wonders were steadily replaced by mechanistic explanations. it was after all the dawning of the widespread scientism that so characterizes our contemporary society

>>18952266
cristianity was a big trend and if you shoehorned in stuff about god people would be more apt to read you.
some people think descartes meditations made a big leap from i exist therefore god exists. that he just put it in as an afterthought for good boy points.
historical context is very important when we talk about developing ideas.

>>18951937
There's no real evidence that he did. He could have had another neurological issue, the symptoms were vague enough to be anything really and his father died of a similar thing.

>>18951394
2000 years is but a blip in the history of mankind

>>18952065
which books?

>>18952395
It's a blip in the [history of mankind] but almost the entirety of the [history] [of mankind]

>>18952395
Not really in terms of civilization. It's about a third of it.

>>18952329
That makes sense. But if your faith is dependent on physics not being explainable it probably wasn't very strong in the first place. Idk easy for me to say in 2021 but I just don't see how like describing the physical laws behind motion or explaining the firmament as physical space destroys a faith. It reduces some of the mystery of the world but doesn't do anything to answer the big questions, ie who are we, why are we here, where are we going.

>>18952180
His main argument is that there are two contradictory philosophies present in the Bible because Paul was a Jewish rebel fighting against the Roman government who co-opted the man Jesus's thunder (who Nietzsche regarded as being a lot more like Buddha, someone who had done away with churches entirely) as part of his political war. Therefore, Christianity is a disgusting and cultureless mish-mash of Greco-Roman and Jewish philosophy that made use of (and thereby utterly deflating) a Buddhist revolutionary in name in order to get off the ground and be taken seriously. Paul was a fanatical slave-minded tyrant who put forth false teachings merely as a means of political subversion.

>>18952414
christianity, judaism, whatever are incredibly recent inventions when you see that oh shit, there was an asteroid impact which ended the last proper ice age and flooded the earth as a consequense
from which results the erosion of the original head of the sphynx
which is over at least 15k ish years old
then there's the ancient civilizations which were rekt by the flood
and the ones which were simply abandoned, like the native american ones after most people died of disease and the jungle, which used to be a man made food source, covered most of their buildings and shit in a relatively small amount of time
all of that was documented by the first exploreres which journeyed the amazon river, after 80ish years came a new wave which documented those cities as fabrications but the recent invention of LIDAR tech has revealed a ton of new ruins, etc in the jungles
the jungles which are the size of the indian subcontinent
imagine fucking india being ignored when it came to ancient civilization, half of what there is now wouldn't exist

>>18952329
I guess there was a fundamental turning away (at least among the learned and upper classes) from God and religion and you've made a good argument that the Enlightenment contributed to that. Although I think it's more indirectly related to it via industrialization, urbanization, mercantilism, and such as highly disruptive of patterns of living that had existed since time immemorial really. But I think for someone who is a member of the learned class who can comprehend modern philosophy that it is disingenuous and lazy to just say "God is dead" because of that historical trend towards atheism among our ranks since as we have established here, no one really "btfo'd" Christianity or God.

>>18952478
>the sphynx which is over at least 15k ish years old
Are you retarded?

>>18952505
the corrosion which effected the head of the original sculpture could only happen in heavy rainfall for an incredible period of time, decades if not centuries at least
the last time it rained that much in egypt was when that asteroid struck greenland

>>18952542
Bro the nose is missing because Napoleon blew it off with artillery.

>>18952550
if only you knew
the og sculpture was of anubis, which looks nothing like the current one

>>18951294
Having a psychotic break over a moment of sympathy is more "overly human" than whatever you seem to be doing.

>>18952550
then there's the fluctuating level of the quality of masonry, there was some shit tier layer covering some of the sphinx's body and then there's the uncovered part of the whole thing

>>18952599
Anon, earth is 5000 years old and no amount of schizophrenic rambling will convince me otherwise. I. Just. Don't. Care. My worldview works. No need for me to start investigating interdimensional Annunaki gold miners in the Levant.

>>18952562
Is this anything more than speculation?

>>18952550
That’s a myth bro

>>18952449
Yeah I get you, but I think that view is somewhat contingent on our living 300+ years into the enlightenment, whereas back closer to the beginning, science was explaining things which had no obvious material basis for thousands of years, your parents, your grandparents, their grandparents, just unfathomable stretches of time. It would have truly shaken the foundations.

>>18952494
I think it was a good and provocative way to put the fact that God had become much less a motivating factor in the lives of everyday people, for all the reasons you listed, and that therefore one could expect the importance of God and religion to collapse, as it does seem to have done.

>>18952614
How does your worldview work when there's evidence to the contrary?
How the hell doesn't that shake your whole reality?

>>18952627
>evidence to the contrary
planted by satan, simple as

>2021
>being christian
>2021 A.D.
>two thousand and twenty one anno domini
>being a christcuck
Surely there are better ways to cope?

>>18952625
Fair. I consneed. It's just lamentable that so many edgelord redditors love to parrot Nietzsche like they have anything beyond a cursory understanding of his philosophy in order to bolster their tenuous arguments in favor of atheism.

>>18952627
This >>18952637

>>18952627
Your schizophrenic WordPress java sites don't count as evidence, anon.

>>18952834
Idk most Christians I know seem fairly happy and abundant whereas those without faith are languishing in existential despair, hiding it barely with newage pseudo-religious practice like attending (((therapy))) and getting into knitting.

>>18952902
Lmao could you BE more obvious?

Cope however you want brainlet, the original question was rhetorical.

>>18952627
Human beings aren't logical, they're emotional. Christianity just plays on that. It's one way to live.

>>18951294
I actually think that moment revealed a soul of great man that the average normie could never understand.

>>18951517
See that makes them easier to ignore because they're just obviously b8ing. Christians are annoying because there's a sincerity to their arrogant midwittery.

>>18951058
lol, never mind that. How does one come back to Christianity after literally turning 12 and realizing it's fucking retared?

if he can do it, you can do it

>>18951394
Christianity began with one man, and ended with another.

>>18951058
you cannot

>>18951422
research the eastern orthodox view of hell and sin as separation from god and sin as it's own punishment

>>18953489
Wypierdalaj

>>18953489
https://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/nas/streaming/dept/scuastaf/collections/Panzram/Panzram-Box01Folder03.pdf

>>18952902
i agree with the substitutes part but not the happy christians part

>>18952505
It’s been geologically proven bruh

read vargas llosa

>>18951058
Read GK Chesterton’s Heretics. They book has essays there that have a powerful Chrisitan responses to Nietzcshe’s ideas such as the Ubermensch and God’s death.

I’d say N’s was very BTFO’d by him.

>>18951309
More like Neetch LARPing Crime and Punishment.

Cope.

>>18951422
>Fedora
Why are Atheistniggers so edgy?

>>18951512
I make it my mission to tell every atheistfag or Gnosticfag to go shove their ideas up their ass.

Christ is King. Nothing will ever change that.

>>18951394
>A religion survives subversion attempt after subversion attempt for 2,000 years
History is written by the victors; the "subversion attempts" you've survived could as easily have been considered orthodox dogma.

>always producing intellectuals who systematically deconstruct detractors
Aye, it's more lucrative than forging and editing documents in the monastery to alter the future's perception of history. Let us see how these "systematic deconstructions" hold up to the philosophers of today. We do not argue by resting on our laurels, we argue with words. Surely the "holy fathers, monks and saints" are not such great intellectual titans that they cannot be touched.

>>18951441
What of him saying that the only true Christian was Christ?

>>18952076
That's like rebutting Christianity by saying that its founder got crucified. Sometimes madness and death are a consequence of something outside of your control and virtuosity.

>>18952408
>he doesn't know about Tartaria and the like
>nothing is covered up, they're reporting history accurately because they care about the truth!

>>18952614
Your worldview works about as much as a NEET, but at least the NEET has the good sense to despise himself for being pathetic.

>>18952637
I can make conjecture, too. Actually, God left Satan to artifice all of history in order to draw man away from God and towards secular quibbling. Or no, Satan has no power over history and God planted these contradictory things in order to test our faith, as he tested Abraham.

>>18952902
(((Anecdotes)))

>>18953489
Which criticism Nietzsche had for Christianity does this address?

>>18953956
Why do atheists and Jews seethe so much about Christianity lol? Like just let a nigga live. You never seem to have much to say about Islam or Sikhism. You can always tell you are onto something good when a kike or a leftist begins to seethe.

>>18953082
>Human beings aren't logical, they're emotional.
Human beings aren't emotional, they're logical.
e.g. most people would betray a friend for profit

Truth is that we are neither, we are both. And a system that doesn't tackle both has no chance of success with the masses. Even socialism is presented in a highly emotional way, and all major religions have a deep logical system.

>>18953956
>reddit spacing

>>18954084
Humans don’t exist. Only objects of will.

Nietschze never criticized Christianity. If you read the “god is dead” part and saw it as a celebration of atheism you missed the whole point

>>18954216
>Nietschze never criticized Christianity.
He did.
>If you read the “god is dead” part and saw it as a celebration of atheism you missed the whole point
Not a celebration, but he is arguing that it's time to create moral values without using God.

Bro, just pray.

I developed an obsession with plants out of nowhere and I think it means Jesus wants me to make soap to give to the unwashed poors.

>>18954216
>Nietschze never criticized Christianity
lmao

>>18954246
>I developed an obsession with plants out of nowhere and I think it means Jesus wants me to make soap
u wot

>>18951058
According to some of the christcucks around her, by reevaluating all values

…and all these other pretzels

>>18951450
No, exactly that is the beauty of the Papacy, that you can have the worst sinner alive on the papal throne yet the office of Pontifex somewhat sanctifies him.

>>18954084
>Truth is that we are neither, we are both.
I.e. you're a liar

>e.g. most people would betray a friend for profit
That's not true you scumbag.

>Human beings ARE logical
Nobody is this stupid, you're lying to make a case for your pathetic religion, which is immoral and grotesque.

>>18954216
>Nietschze never criticized Christianity
True. The problem is atheistic brainlets read him and take him out of context.

>>18951394
Christianity was the subversion.

>>18955657
What did Christianity subvert?

>>18955656
You think Nietzsche never criticized Christianity yet everyone else is the brainlet

>>18955684
Tradition, culture, history, beauty, and the heroic values.

>>18955689
Yes. morals /= christianity

>>18955693
slavery, superstition and a multicultural roman empire

>>18955693
Christianity is all of those things.

>>18955639
>That's not true you scumbag.
For the majority it's not a matter of if they would betray, it's just a matter of how much, or what, they want to betray.

>>18955707
>christian morals is not real christianity!
And Christianity was the superstition.
>>18955715
Wrong.

>>18955742
>t. pseud-midwit

>>18952395
>i am le stupid guy

>>18955742
>Christianity was the superstition
Pagans killed animals to predict the future. Christians have communion and do not bother with other nonsense.

>>18952414
Civilization has existed far, far longer than the written word.

>>18952902
Idk most retards I know seem fairly happy and abundant whereas those without faith are languishing in existential despair, hiding it barely with newage pseudo-retarded practice like attending (((therapy))) and getting into drooling.

>>18955742
That was written 2,000 years ago, it's not true anymore.

>>18955840
Yeah, but by destroying Roman imperial authority (and the more ancient traditions of paganism) Christianity has inadvertently made way for all of the evils of atheism and materialism, as much as it loathes and rejects these philosophies. It's the ultimate irony that Christianity's Luciferian revolt against the Roman Patriarchate and Pantheon is now being replayed against Christianity by an even lower group of Luciferians, the atheists and materialists. It all has to come full circle now, there is no stopping it since Christianity opened the flood gates.

>>18955858
Atheism and materialism existed in Greece and Rome. Their ascendancies in the modern world have to do with factors external to religion, e.g. industrialization, and would have happened in a pagan society just the same.

>>18955858
"Ancient traditions of paganism", even if they ever existed, have been already dead for hundreds of years when Christianity came on the scene.

>>18955887
Only in very small philosophical groups, which were rightly persecuted by Roman authorities when they were discovered.
>>18955888
Wrong.

>>18955893
Right.

>>18955887
Christianity is ultimately responsible for the industrial revolution, it wouldn't have happened without them. This is partially what I mean by floodgates. Although atheism and materialism (practically, if not formally) had already been proliferating for many hundreds of years prior to the Industrial Revolution. The Protestant Reformation is the most obvious example of Christianity's internal decline and the gradual victory of the atheist mindset (even though they were still nominally Christian, they rejected Church authority which is the hallmark of atheism and Satanism (The Catholic Church, which still possessed some semblance of ancient pagan authority and dignity and was certainly superior to Protestantism)).

>>18955893
Christians also persecuted them. Who's to say that pagans wouldn't have become lax as time went on like the Christians?

>>18955906
Your knowledge of history is extremely poor if you really believe that. Go read some books by actual scholars. Romans were still worshipping the deified Emperor under his cult when Christianity appeared, along with the rest of the Roman pantheon.

>>18955912
>Christianity is ultimately responsible for the industrial revolution, it wouldn't have happened without them.
Why?

>>18955888
>even if they ever existed
You have to be psychotic to write something like this. Do you honestly think no tribe had any traditions or beliefs until Abrahamism showed up? Modern homo sapiens existed for tens of thousands of years and you don't think they ever formed traditions and beliefs lol. Not to mention all the people to the east with their own traditions and beliefs separate from Abrahamism going back thousands of years. You're unbelievably fucking retarded.

>>18955934
Because without their taking up of Aristotle's scientific endeavor under the name of natural reason, and their stripping of all divinity from the natural world (implicitly reducing it to a mere mechanism which is entirely separate from God, who is entirely transcendent), the mechanistic developments which enabled Europe's economy to explode with new technology and materialistic concerns could never have happened. Pagan peoples, India and China being the only examples which have existed up until they were colonized, never had any desire or need to "innovate" in the same way the Christian Aristotelians did (who were directly sponsored by the Church, even if they were not philosophical Aristotelians). Christianity saw nature as just some mechanism which it could, and therefore should, conquer with reason, which is totally foreign to the pagan mindset, which not only didn't see the need to conquer nature (because it has nothing all that much to gain from nature in contrast to higher pursuits), it also considered it to be a sacrilege of the divinities which it consisted of. Christianity, if it even left any perception of natural divinity, turned them all into demons which we were simply supposed to ignore. So Christianity basically removed all of the natural, divine barriers between mankind and a progressive, materialistic (economic/technological) expansion which would ultimately lead to the emerging of Industrialization, atheism, materialism, and the end of the world as we know it, either through nuclear war, climate change, or whatever other disasters lay in store for us in the not so distant future.

>>18955934
Because Christianity is responsible for Enlightenment science and its relentless search for the one truth.

>>18955979
Paganism isn't static. Rome was full of eastern cults from persia. It was a true melting pot.

>>18956002
What does that have to do with anything?

>>18954060
I'm "seething so much about Christianity lol" because that's what the thread is about. And it's primarily Christians that come and argue, in earnest, on 4chan. They are more insufferable and beg the question far more than any group I've argued with. Besides that, they have the biggest mouths. Naturally they will be disliked above all.

>>18955715
It is all of those things, but twisted, because it requires these things for the perpetuation of its parasitic existence. There is no justification for tradition under Christianity- hate your mother, your father, I have come to bring a sword. You need to spit upon your traditions if they are not Christian (or else you are in sin, and we will not say that you are going to Hell because that is God's decision, but you're going to Hell).

Culture is only preserved by Christianity and monks in order to be edited and syncretized with Yahwehism, making it seem as if our ancestors believed in their lie all along, or preserving only what their purposes desire. There is no love of truth or preservation, only pragmaticism enslaved to the church.

>history
A history of barbarism, colonization, diseases, inquisitions, tortures, and the like. Of course, "it wasn't real Christianity" and "it was actually purely political," but the same could be said of the criticisms you level against other religions. And obviously, the forced conversion and trickery of the Gentiles, along with other Christo-centric actions, required copious, Christian violence (even if it was also political, just showing how much of a land and power-minded sham the church was).

>beauty
Only if it puts asses in the pews. Otherwise, passing, worldly beauty draws man's attention from God, whom he should be solely loving and giving attention to. Why settle for lesser, material beauty when you can "crucify the passions" and deprive yourself of clothes, food, money, and talents? Why not become "all fire" through the path of interior asceticism?

>heroic values
There are some heroic values put forth in the Bible, but you wouldn't devour a handful of grapes from a basket of mostly spoiled grapes. Christianity must be taken as a whole, and it is a wholly spoiled system, something attested to in the books of OP's author.

And the worst part is that there are good-meaning people in the church, and good aspects to it; but people always point to these accidental goods in order to justify the millenias-long conspiracy.

>>18955888
Then it should have been a small task for Christianity to convert the ancient world. It was a smooth transition, right? The new normal?

>>18955912
I think you're once again confusing Christianity for Europe. There is nothing of this world, nothing industrial (as if exploiting people and children in factories with the hope that they will have a better job than on the farm isn't fundamentally Christian) in actual Christianity.

>>18956002
Look at how much hinduism has changed, it's completely different than it used to be. There's no "thousand year old" tradition there at all and it's the same for Rome.

>>18956002
>Rome was full of eastern cults from persia.
It only acquired new cults because of border expansion. Rome's fundamental cult always remained the same, and worship of the Emperor was always maintained as superior to every lesser cult (Christians were the only ones who refused to acknowledge the divinity of the Caesar, and so they were rightfully fed to the lions).

>>18956013
>I think you're once again confusing Christianity for Europe.
Christianity, after the rise of Islam, was chiefly a European religion.

>>18956054
It was a religion chiefly in Europe, not chiefly a European religion. A big difference.

>>18956013
>There is nothing of this world, nothing industrial (as if exploiting people and children in factories with the hope that they will have a better job than on the farm isn't fundamentally Christian) in actual Christianity.
Don't you understand that this is exactly my point? Yet we still live in this world, so what do we do with it? We exploit it the best we can with our God-given reason and turn it into a tyrannical (over nature) utopia. The mechanistic conception of nature does not give us an understanding of balance, only cause and effect. By acting so carelessly according to such a simple principle and without considering the higher necessities of balance (which nature itself will be forced to restore after we have tipped the scales) Christianity had doomed itself. Detaching itself so fundamentally (in principle) from the world is the chief cause of its own destruction. If one dips one's entire weight into the transcendent, then the scales must be counter-weighted with the immanent. Balance is forcefully maintained.

>>18956080
Catholicism and Orthodoxy were Europeanized. There's no doubt about it. The Roman Church even used the old titles and styles from the Pagan Pontifex of Rome (who was the representative of Jupiter, not Jesus), and the Eastern Church had its own fetishization of its Roman heredity.

>>18956080
>>18956107
I should add: These are the good things about Christianity. Christianity's original spirit is neither European nor Asian nor anything else, it is a lower class religion borne of emotional suffering and struggling. It has no national origin, it's like a mixed race bastard who couldn't find a home, and so forced the idea of universality on everyone so it could fit in. The only problem is that in order to accomplish this megalithic feat, it had to abstract from everything that we perceive to be real. Hence the huge emphasis on the transcendent.

>>18953795
Read GK’s Orthodoxy as well, it goes further into why Nietzsche is wrong.

>>18953795
>>18956358
Chesterton's critique of Nietzsche is the most retarded thing I ever read. It's like he didn't even read Nietzsche. You can't seriously be shilling him here.

Could someone recommend books that argue against and dismantle Christianity, but don't come from a place of resentment and vitriol (as Nietzsche's books do), and aren't just a fedora treatise on how everything's pointless and religion is le bad?
I'm looking for concise, convincing arguments against Christianity (but not in favor of physicalist atheism).

>>18955990
>could, and therefore should
That doesn't sound like Catholicism to me?

Also how is is bad to advance your technology? All you have to do, in theory, is not apply advancements foolishly, and they work exclusively in your favor. (I agree we have applied them poorly). I suspect the real issue here does not lie with advancement, but with man. For example, when you increase in virtue it becomes easier and easier to fall into a sense of pride because of what you've accomplished. It makes more sense to me that as man increased in technical knowledge his pride became his downfall.

>>18956901
Why do you think Nietzsche's books come from resentment? His father was a Lutheran pastor whom he loved and as an adolescent Nietzsche was a passionate church-goer.

>>18956901
Why is that what you're looking for?

>>18956924
I don't agree with Nietzsche's system in the first place, so his criticism of Christianity is not the kind I'm looking for.
>>18956931
Because it interests me.

>>18956947
Obviously, I was wondering why it interests you.

>>18956963
Criticism of Christianity usually comes from an atheistic frame of reference that rejects spirituality as a whole and not just the Christian dogma, therefore I'm interested in a refutation that doesn't presuppose physicalism to be the truth.

>>18956979
I guess that is pretty interesting now that I think about it haha.

>>18951058
So, what does /lit/ propose? As a Catholic, do I read this book and challenge my views? Do you hope/expect me to abandon my religion after the "supreme truth" (words of another anon I spoke to half a year ago) presented by N-man?

>>18956979
Nietzsche is different from Dawkins-tier atheists in that, while offering a critique of Christianity from the standpoint of atheism, also offers a critique of substance as a whole, this including physicalism, materialism, etc. For him, those things are extensions of monotheism as they rest on the same axioms (that there is something eternal / concrete / objective). You could say he is a much more radical kind of atheist, perhaps even a nondualist atheist or nontheist. But if you're looking for someone who offers a transcendental spirituality that isn't Christianity, then no, he's not your guy.

>>18951058
Are you seriously willing to confess you are an athiest?

I'm ancient Greece being an athiest was the equivalent of being a retard, yes, literally believing that the world is composed of some crude element, say atoms or energy, and believing that a eternally changing universe can have a eternally changing material cause is retarded, you would be mocked openly in the auditorium, you would be named " a hedonistic creature of filth" as Clement called the epicurean, athiests, being retarded, are responsible for all superstitions, failing to grasp the basic principles of causality, he believed the heavens were a mechanical structure determining the universe and astrology was born, failing yet further, he projected his idiocy onto anything unexplainable yet moving, and animism was born, being yet further retarded, he worshipped idols of clay, being unable to philosophically rise above it, Freud being a naturalist, nonetheless believed the human brain contains a ego, unconscious and seemingly endless phantoms, Christopher hitchens, a materialist, nonetheless believed in a "free" will, will they ever learn? Will they ever learn that they cannot progress in knowledge when all is physically determined?

>>18957079
>, this including physicalism, materialism, etc.
how is his doctrine of the will to power not fundamentally materialist

>>18957019
>Do you hope/expect me to abandon my religion after the "supreme truth" (words of another anon I spoke to half a year ago) presented by N-man?
No, as N-man demonstrated himself you’d gain nothing by doing so

>>18957095
You would have to read him to understand how, but the long story short is that will to power is simply a neologism not meant to refer to any substance or concrete reality but for describing his own process by which life comes about, not intended to be considered as something transcendental.

>>18956901
Bump

Every time I re-read this book, I'm impressed all over again by certain passages:

>To every soul belongs another world; for every soul every other soul is a world behind. Between just what is most similar does seeming deceive most beautifully: for the smallest cleft is the hardest to bridge. For me—how could there be an outside-me? There is no outside! But with all tones we forget that; how lovely it is that we forget! Are things not furnished with names and tones so that human beings might refresh themselves with things? It is a beautiful foolery, this speaking: with it human beings can dance over all things. How lovely is al this talking and all these lies of tones! With such tones our love dances on colourful rainbows.

It's such a readable book. Can't relate to anyone who finds it boring in the least.

>>18957086
That means nothing.

>I'm ancient Greece being an athiest was the equivalent of being a retard, yes
So what?

>failing to grasp the basic principles of causality
How so?

>he believed the heavens were a mechanical structure determining the universe and astrology was born, failing yet further,
These could very well be true things, merely trying to identify the etiology of a belief does not mean you have "refuted it," if that is even possible. Ditto for your statements about animism or your strawman about so-called idolatry.

What is this fallacious triumphalism? Do you really have nothing better do with your time, than to repeat platitudes without any serious thought behind them? Is not Christianity as deterministic? Has the LORD not worked out everything to its proper end— even the wicked for a day of disaster? Has He not created everything so that it would inevitably fall one day, Adam and Eve being weak and naive, Satan being wily and intelligent? All things He has determined, from the salvation of the very few to the arbitrarily irrevocable damnation of the majority of His children He seems not to want to give a second chance (before resurrection) or purgation, only to punish emptily for a temporal infraction or two. Our good deeds are like menstrual rags to Him, but evidently our sins born of weakness and ignorance are the height of offenses

>>18956107
Of course Christianity was "Europeanized," it would be completely intolerable if it did not co-opt every pagan hero figure, tradition, and holiday for itself. And also if did not rely on the impassivity, greed, ignorance, and fear of the commoner. But this is true of most everything in this fallen world; so much for an "otherworldly religion."

>>18956091
I misunderstood your point and leaned in too hard with my attack; I am not properly informed, but Christian industrialism, as well as the myriad un-Christian things it has been used to support throughout history, is a bastard child.

Although it seems more like the spirit of a certain entrepreneuring, advantage-minded European people, wrapped up in a Christian justification, than something entirely Christian (the Eastern Christians were never so industry-minded).

Yes, if Christianity puts all of its eggs in the transcendental basket, it will not perpetuate itself. It's the same with art and other "worldly, fallen things." What use does a Christian have for cathedrals and music? Only art subjugated to Christ is justifiable for its pragmatic purpose, and not for art and beauty itself (they'll just say God is beauty, but you need to then be concerned with beauty itself, freed from moralism and evangelistic preoccupations, something you'll find Christians hard pressed to do, as it does not also serve the church).

Perhaps this is one reason behind its longevity- its flexibility and (at times) vagueness, where we are allowed to be left to common sense in order to preserve our faith. Meanwhile, ascetics and saints, the truer Christians, malign and raise complaints to the "vain" world of passing philosophies, cathedrals, expensive clerical vestments, Bachs and Michelangelos. All of these things will pass, and only the "immortal soul matters."

The only way is to go between the horns of the dichotomy and to say that art is as valid a way of experiencing God as prayer and fasting, but you'd be hard-pressed to find this in the Bible. It would just be your heretical innovation, but tolerated so as to keep asses in the pews and converts streaming in

>Y-yeah, Christ wants me to go to the gym and focus on my material body! My body's a temple! Forget the desert fathers and ascetics, they only have a special calling, even if their Christianity is attested to as the true one, and I live life like the Rich Man from the parable, and the ascetics I turn my back to live like Lazarus

>>18951058
humility.

>>18956013
>>18955990
Very insightful and interesting. You’re inspiring me anon.

>>18956947
>>18956979
Who is the Nietzsche of idealists?

>>18951058
One doesn't. Don't cling to comforting delusions. Grow up.

>>18959516
Plato

>>18951394
based and truthpilled. fuck nietzsche

You don't read Nietzsche and become an Ubermensch. You are born an Ubermensch or you are not.
Also, in the end Zarathustra tells his followers to leave him and come up with their own shit. I love Nietzsche but neurotics are his primary fan base and suck his dick too much.

>>18959892
>You are born an Ubermensch or you are not.
>t. hasn't read Nietzsche

>>18952026
Jung ruined religion for me. His analysis of the Christian faith is too spot on for me to deny. Knowing it's all just archetypal representations destroys the magic. I've tried reading Catholic philosophers and theologians in an attempt to rekindle my faith but I can't. The Jung pill can never be regurgitated.

>>18951058
>The motherfricker has btfo'd it good.

Not really. Nietzsche looks at the world from the perspective of someone who wants power, to have his way.

He is opposed to the path of Christ; he wants nothing to do with it. It is simply misguided and foolish in his eyes.

A Christian sees the world differently, however. Read, or re-read, the New Testament. Nietzsche's idea of a good life is a pipe dream. The good life is the Christian life. Why? Because it is the life God created us to live -- it is the only life that will make us happy. Everything else falls short.

>>18959944
Jung also says you should believe it anyway because it's so deeply ingrained into the collective unconcious that it's basically "real" even if not materially real, and regardless that it is useful to believe
feels like cope

>>18959945
God responses to Nietzsche are always so pitiful. I think of you like I think of a cancer kid.

>>18957019
>As a Catholic, do I read this book and challenge my views?
Writing as a Catholic, this is my take on Nietzsche: >>18959945

I believe in Christianity because I believe that the supernatural, the otherworldy, and the divine are real. I have had several mystical experiences myself and I am intimately familiar with many famous miracles over the centuries. Materialists can't account for these things. Nietzsche fails because he begins from the basic premise that the world is fundamentally material and this is false. He begins from the premise that a man rising from the dead is impossible, but it isn't. I do not accept Nietzsche's central premise, thus the rest of his argument has no effect on me.

>>18959972
"The foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength."

God created you from nothing. He knows you better than you know yourself. You're kidding yourself if you think you will find happiness or peace outside the will of God.

>For this reason I kneel before the Father, from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name. I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being, so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love, may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ, and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.

>Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us, to him be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, for ever and ever! Amen.
Ephesians 3:14-21

>>18959985
Imagine actually believing something can come from nothing. What persuaded you into taking such bullshit seriously?

>>18951130
More like the Chaos.

>>18959972
Are you happy anon

>>18955858
>Yeah, but by destroying Roman imperial authority
Christians submitted to imperial authority. They frequently joined the military to defend the empire despite not being welcomed by other Roman's. You need to not read gibbon so heavily. He isn't accurate and is putting his opinions in over observations. And as other anons have said, pagans are the most materialistic out there.

This your mind on /pol/. Believing that pagans were some noble spiritual race of Aryans and not materialistic and greedy killers like many humans can be.

>>18959922
Nietzsche says there are classes of men, men are driven by instinct, men are born with innate character types that determine the course of their life. There is something deeper to an Ubermensch besides the choices he makes.
I imagine, among other possibilities, an Ubermensch reading Nietzsche would find much of what he writes as self evident, and would have already transvaluated values on his own, with aspects being disparate from Nietzsche.

>>18960020
Something came from God anon. Your strawman theory seems to align more with the "Big Bang" than Christian thought.

>>18956901
Check out the original philological and literary critiques of the Bible. It was one of the leading causes of the decline of Christianity in Europe. Basically all you need to do to deconstruct it is deconstruct its holy texts.

>>18960744
My knowledge doesn't come from Gibbon, in fact I've never even read him. I'm talking about the fundamental rejection of imperial divinity (that the Caesar was a god higher than Yahweh), which was akin to treason in ancient Rome, and one of the reasons they were fed to the lions. Of course there were some Christians who were too cowardly to publicly admit their treason and martyr themselves. But Christianity, considered in itself, was fundamentally a Luciferian rejection of the divinity of Rome, because Lucifer, ie Jesus Christ, knew better than his father, The Divine Caesar (it's very ironic that there are passages in, eg, Revelations, where Jesus is equated with the Morning Star and Lucifer).

>>18959892
>Also, in the end Zarathustra tells his followers to leave him and come up with their own shit.
Nietzsche plagiarised Stirner so much and never gave credit, what a mad lad.

>>18957220
I'd imagine he views humans in the same way he would view an animal if that is the case. That sounds kind of gay.

>>18960759
> There is something deeper to an Ubermensch besides the choices he makes.
What if that "something" is belief in the holy spirit?

>>18951131
>apologising for being white and male
>Ubermensch
Pick one

>>18959944
Jung was a mystic anon. He didn't just believe in God, he claimed to know God existed.

I'd like to chip in on the topic of "Christian industrialism" here with my personal opinion that most of the people talking about it ITT are focusing far too much on Christianity and not enough on Industry - the basis for the enlightenment, and thus industrialization, and thus what we have today, is derived in far greater part from the steps taken in that direction by the pagan Greeks and Romans than Christianity. Hundreds of years before Christianity even existed the Romans were developing multiple fields of engineering and laying a massive network of roads, cities, ports and other infrastructure in the pursuit of their conquest and empire.

Rome was an evil multikulti empire, not much different from the modern US relatively speaking. Why pagans think it's "based" is beyond me when they murdered gauls and other nobler people.

>>18959944
Which books of his talk about it? I'm looking to free myself from the remnants of my Christian upbringing and to acquire a new point of view

>>18960776
What did God come from?

>>18961362
>Rome was an evil multikulti empire
As opposed to Catholicism, of course. All Catholics everywhere are culturally and ethnically homogeneous and Catholics also never blanda'd with every fucking native population they came into contact with to the extent of creating entire racial and ethnic groups of mongrels and never assimilated anything from existing cultures and peoples they encountered.

>>18951841

t. atheist bugman

Legit enjoyed this thread, fair play /lit/. I am a catholic but even in a practical sense, that is to say even if I didn’t believe in God, the world would be much much better if everybody still believed in God and followed Christian morals. People have replaced religion and God with literally everything under the sun and it only leads to people chasing comfort and descending to hedonism and then getting pilled up

What did we even talk about before the gnostictards took over?
I can't remember anymore, it all seems so distant

>>18951394
>2000
>thoroughly dismantled by Schopenhauer then his student Nietzsche
Literally took two Germans to tear down a 2000 year old institution.

>>18951757
Book of Job is retarded and by itself disproves Christianity. Nietzsche, like Schopenhauer, held Suffering to be the only guarantee in a beings life. How could a all loving benevolent God create a world we’re the only guarantee and constant in all living things is suffering, pain and death? This isn’t the problem of Evil, Evil isn’t even a problem in Christianity (free will solves this problem) which makes me think that Christian theologians purposefully make the “problem of evil” to be a thing when it shouldn’t to distract us from the real problem of Christianity which is Suffering.

>>18961752
>inane poltard rant

>>18961752
>"This is my ultimate teaching, my dear apostles. That it would be better to have not been born than to not defend Evropa. DEUS VULT!" - Mark 22:14

>>18951394
If it takes hubris to believe in Thus Spoke Zarathustra, then it takes hubris to believe in the Bible / Talmud / Quran, since these are all written by individual men with the intention of bestowing new values and upholding new virtues on to their chosen people. Thus Spoke Zarathustra connects to people.

>>18962544
The difference is the holy bible is the word of God

>>18962651
are all the late additions the word of God as well? how about the unincluded material

>>18962651
You believe it's the word of God because it depicts values and virtues that complement your own skills, sensibilities, and desires, aka you're full of hubris and you want to believe in the divinity of the text.

>>18959944
When you start reading actual philosophy and not mystics you start to realize that Jung is scrambling around in the dark in comparison to the true sages of the world.

>>18955990
Good explanation of why modern science could only have arisen in a Christian culture.

A fine supplement to the argument is: Stanley Jaki, The Savior of Science

>>18955990
>>18956013
>>18959481

You (assuming one poster wrote the above) have a smart, interesting take on these issues, although as a Catholic I disagree with much (though not all) that you're saying.

>It's the same with art and other "worldly, fallen things." What use does a Christian have for cathedrals and music? Only art subjugated to Christ is justifiable for its pragmatic purpose, and not for art and beauty itself (they'll just say God is beauty, but you need to then be concerned with beauty itself, freed from moralism and evangelistic preoccupations, something you'll find Christians hard pressed to do, as it does not also serve the church).

You're flatly wrong about the issue of art, however. I refer you to the Catholic Catechism, paragraphs 2500-2503, http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c2a8.htm#2500

>Created "in the image of God," man also expresses the truth of his relationship with God the Creator by the beauty of his artistic works. Indeed, art is a distinctively human form of expression; beyond the search for the necessities of life which is common to all living creatures, art is a freely given superabundance of the human being's inner riches. Arising from talent given by the Creator and from man's own effort, art is a form of practical wisdom, uniting knowledge and skill, to give form to the truth of reality in a language accessible to sight or hearing. To the extent that it is inspired by truth and love of beings, art bears a certain likeness to God's activity in what he has created. Like any other human activity, art is not an absolute end in itself, but is ordered to and ennobled by the ultimate end of man.

In sum, the Catholic Church has no beef with art or the arts. Which is not to say it looks at the matter from a purely secular perspective. Obviously it does not. "Art certainly must be listed among the noblest manifestations of human genius. Its purpose is to express in human works the infinite divine beauty of which it is, as it were, the reflection." Pius XII, Musicae Sacrae (1955).

>>18963381
What a retarded quote. "I think the best art was from my cult!". No shit! Also, could the proliferation of Christ-themed art have something to do with the money, power, and influence of the church for such a long time? Also, personally, I don't care what rules your cult adhere to since they are all arbitrarily made up anyway. You are literally playing group pretend you weirdo.

>>18951058
Not. Welcome to islam brother.

>>18951058
Tell me you don’t understand Nietzsche without telling me you don’t understand Nietzsche

>>18964440
Welcome to the warring apes tribe, where we deem an Arabic translated bible + the ramblings of warlord to be holy

>another thread for people who haven't read N to debate people who didn't understand him about whether it is based and redpilled to agree with him or not

>>18964506
Why don’t you lay some understanding on us kiddo

>>18962651
>the word of god
>written by dozens of people
>edited by hundreds upon hundreds of people
>councils have voted on what is canon and what isn't
>people forget about the extended edition apocrypha
why lie to yourself man

>>18965599
Yeah I am still waiting for The Bible: Ultimate Extended Unrated Christ Almighty Director's Testament Limited Edition

>>18956947
>Nietzsche's system
at least read nietzsche

>>18951058
Read guenon then become muslim

>>18963769
>What a retarded quote. "I think the best art was from my cult!".

What is this sperg even referring to? The quote in the picture? Adams was hardly a Roman Catholic, anon.

>You are literally playing group pretend you weirdo.

Except the Adams quote is actually correct. And you might have a point if the wealthy and influential of today spent their money on creating art in the way the Catholic Church did. But they don't, do they? So you don't have a point, do you?

Lastly, you might try reading Auerbach's book on Dante if you want a proper understanding of how the gospels and Christianity profoundly and decisively influenced all of Western literature.

>>18951058
watch this gospel video if you want to be 100% sure of going to heaven. the biblical gospel gives you full assurance of your salvation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Dqw_fJeBD0

>>18960961
You're a Christ-driven Ubermensch I guess.

>>18951294
I heard once that there was a possibility he faked being a schizo. Does anyone know why? Not a cope, I just wanna know the evidence and why that's possible.

>>18951394
The fact that you think you are even anywhere close to the intelligence or capability of Nietzsche takes unimaginable hubris.

>>18961954

What is the 'problem of suffering', in your opinion?
Going back to the main topic, I don't see how Nietzche has adequately argued for and proven the foundational presupposition of his philosophy; that there is no truth. No absolute. No God.

While Nietzche's philosophy is interesting taken within its own framework, it is just intellectual wankery without being able to first disprove the fundamental presupposition of Christianity (that there is absolute Truth, that is, God exists) and then proving his own, opposite assertion that there is NO absolute truth.

>>18965995
I'd rather just call myself a follower of Christ desu.

>>18954216
>>18955656
>>18955707

he literally has a critique of Christianity in its own book called "The Antichrist."

>>18953697
Kek. My university.