/lit/ - Literature

>>18914836
>capitalism is ravaged by internal contradictions and will collapse from them within our 19th century lifetimes
Hmmmm

>>18914836

>>18914844
he got it right with the cycles of crisis of capitalism. I'm pretty sure it will collapse in our lifetime, watching how are things going.

>>18914844
Internal contradiction is just a pseud way of saying some people win at the expense of others. The entire planet has been evolving on this basis for 4 billion years and it hasn't collapsed yet.

communism works tho

>>18914844
It collapses as a feature. It doesn’t work.

>>18914836
You don’t like community running it’s own business? Have you read William Morris?

>>18914836
And you're not going to elaborate any further? What is this, a tweet?
>>18914855
What does the collapse of capitalism even mean at this point? A return to hydraulic despotism?

>>18914862
I just don't think inequalities are inherently bad.

>>18914862
>>18914858

both my parents and their grandparents were put in forced labor camps ("communes") under mao so they could learn the struggles of the peasant class (my grandfather was a doctor and father college educated; they targeted academics and professionals to be "re-educated" first) and live off the land. My grandpa and dad were put into one camp and my aunt and grandma were put into a different one hundreds of miles away where she (my grandma) was sexually abused and tortured, the psychological horror of said abuse combined with being separation anxiety culminated in severe schizophrenia and paranoia that she suffered from for the rest of her life

my grandpa was the youngest of 7 children and only he and his older sister made it through, the rest starved to death in famine

>>18914879
Turns out they are.

I mean, when it’s taken advantage of. When the weak are made to work and live lower lives. This is a shit way to live and it only accentuates the problem. Mother’s do not make their smaller children live in the yard with the dog and feed table scraps. But that is what “civilization” does, and it should end so we can go back to the way it was.

>>18914907
And I have never had sex
Who had it worse?

>>18914907
>both my parents and their grandparents were put in forced labor camps ("communes")
That is not a commune. We all live in a global forced labor camp now. Nowadays they’re calling it neoliberalism and the deal is crumbling apart.

>>18914858
you will never be a woman.

>>18915016
>Communist China is neoliberal
That's a new one.

I am not a leftist, but the idea of life on the "hippie leftist commune" does sound pretty rad. It's a shame they always seem to turn into drug-fueled cults irl.

I can see I’m going to have to go over this point again.

The nation-states with political parties called “Communist parties” are statecrafts-men with the agenda of achieving the goal of reaching communism *someday*.
This is like in the west we have the political party called the “Democratic Party”. Only difference is these people lie and tell you that we have democracy now and there’s nothing more to aim for there.
Point being, they’re just names of “politicians” statecrafts-men, trained liars.
STOP LISTENING TO THEIR LIES

>>18915025
WHO ON THE COVER?
<—THIS BOOK

This isn’t actually new. Only to you

>>18915025
>the idea of life on the "hippie leftist commune" does sound pretty rad. It's a shame they always seem to turn into drug-fueled cults irl.
Well some blame the CIA for that. You might like to read how there’s been a resistance movement throughout this whole history

>>18915025
>It's a shame they always seem to turn into drug-fueled cults irl
Sounds great desu

>>18915033
>>18915041
This board is full of communist who see China as on the path to a truly communist society, and who see Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms as a needed reform to get there. You leftists are a fractured lot.

>>18915048
I'll give it a read, you've been shilling this book for weeks and it's time to see what you are so hyped over.

>>18914856
Thread ended right here.

>>18915075
The fracture of the First International When Marx and Bakunin argued over this.
No state socialist project has made an inch toward the commune. Will China? I’m not trusting them.

Hope you like the book

>>18915002
Yeah I want to be able to bonk women on the head and drag them to my cave. You would be my first cavewife :)

>>18914856
It's still doesn't apply, there are no "contradictions" in market exchange, there is bargaining. Buyers and sellers of all products (labor services among them) have exactly opposite interest but they agree on finalizing transaction only when BOTH parties benefit from it.
btw, the market price by definition gives you the maximum volume of goods (and services) being exchanged and thus maximum improvement of standards of living of the society as a whole. This stupid nigger Marx wants to abolish the mechanism he doesn't even understand.

>>18914856
Nice way of saying we haven't hit the ground 4 seconds pushed off the building.

(4 billion years of carbon neutral lifeforms)

Capitalism is not natural, therefore its not the planets natural evolution.

>>18915171
contradiction in hegelian way, economic model doesn't apply to reality.

>>18914907
That’s tragic of course but it is not the China of today

>>18915241
There is no such thing as unnatural. Everything is natural.

>>18915016
>>18915033

I am aware it wasn't a commune. It was a forced labor camp at best and death camp at worst. I put commune in quotation marks because I frequently come across the word being used in literature pertaining to this time.

Your "point" is ultimately a meaningless distinction. What, so they got communism wrong or didn't do it the right way? Or they were building up to the ultimate goal of communism but failed due to outside forces/corruption/bad luck? It doesn't matter. They loved Mao in China (still do to this day). His revolution was truly one for the people. Then when he got into power he started going apeshit and tens, maybe even hundreds of millions died. But I am sure that if we just tried again, "and this time we will do it right!", you can correct the mistakes of the past, right? The reality is, put into practice the system is unsustainable. Combined with human nature the system will corrupt you like it's done countless times to much greater men than you will ever be.

>>18915251
Honestly it seems that the China of today kind of distances itself from the Cultural Revolution. At best people describe it as a distasteful, harsh, but necessary step. And some people lambast the whole thing and the CCP doesn't disappear them, so... *shrug*.

>capitalism
How to spot a midwit.

>>18915251

It is the same by definition anon. When we speak about the chinese revolution it is not like we are talking about a place like Europe and the Magna Carta which happened hundreds of years ago, or even a country like the US established in 1776; modern China as we know it is less than a generation old (people's republic was established 1949). The same government that ruled in 1949 rules the country today. The country is less than 75 years old. Do not be fooled just because they opened up their country and adopted some free market policies. They are the same country.

>>18915322
Yea it’s not in a revolutionary period anymore, it’s now one of the best countries to live in

>>18915330
>it’s now one of the best countries to live in
If you're part of the CCP elite, sure. If you're an average dude? Western Europe, Canada, Australia, NZ, and the USA all are better.

>>18915317
How do you spell it?

>>18915033
>The nation-states with political parties called “Communist parties” are statecrafts-men with the agenda of achieving the goal of reaching communism *someday*.
Nothing wrong with this. Communism is something that evolves out of historical process, in which the idea of the state is in stages redefined, each time expanding more freedoms to the lower class. Anarchism is a vulgarization of this process that seeks to achieve the endpoint now without going through the necessary transformations of the state and of human consciousness. Because the necessary steps are not taken anarchism never works.
>>18915048
>You might like to read how there’s been a resistance movement throughout this whole history
Kek this is a pure fantasy anarchists are just childish idealists like bro if you want anarcho-primitivism go live in the woods, but we both know you won’t cause you’re a pussy. It is the communist states that have been doing the work required to expand human freedom. Anarchists don’t want to work tho, they just want to larp, complain, and generally just contribute nothing of value.

Hello, Are there any good books on current inequality and how the system is skewed against you?

I really struggle with the captcha, does this mean I am retarded?

>>18915334
lmao https://www.businessinsider.com/70-of-chinas-millennials-are-homeowners-2017-5

>>18915362
You don't own land in China, you are renting it from the government. And before you throw another cope at me, explain why if China is so great, hundred of thousands of educated Chinese people immigrate to the West every year? China fans are truly the most delusional people I've met on 4channel, they make Qoomers seem rational.

>>18915330

It wasn't in the revolutionary period when those things happened either. Perhaps a better word would be industrialized. But I see what you mean.

I am speaking more in terms of ideology. The same 5 year plans that were adopted by mao (in admiration of Stalin) are still being used today. Vicious persecution against detractors or dissidents still happens today. Censorship among media and the populace still happens today. The propaganda machine is rolling stronger than ever. Even labor camps still happen today with the Uighurs. Forced assimilation under the threat of a rifle. And of course there are people who do not believe the camps are real, but whatever I am not going to argue with them.

Every once in a while the "congress" convene in Beijing to praise the communist party and try and outdo each other to see who can lick Xi's butthole the most in the allotted 45 seconds they have to speak. They understand what would happen to them and their families if they dare criticized anything. Even journalists and media members. Literally breaking down in tears of joy about how great Xi is and what a fantastic job he is doing. You should look up the footage sometime. Or look up the videos put out by the state department on how the Uighur camps are teaching computer and business skills and Mandarin chinese to the ethnic minorities, featuring extremely grateful Uighurs espousing how horrible of people they were before and how they can't thank them enough for teaching them chinese values and skills. It is very disturbing.

>>18915251
Same government. Those terrors founded the China of today.

Where do you think they learned to eat bats and other weird shit?

>>18914879
That's true; and neither is equality inherently good. Consider, for example, a community is which everyone is equally poor and miserable. Nobody would claim that that's preferable to the extremely unequal western society.

Equality is a magnificent but hollow structure. People can rarely agree on what equality entails, or whether it is even desirable let alone achievable. What do you equalise? Does everyone gets the same of everything? What, then, of those who are disadvantaged physically or otherwise; should they not get special treatment? But then, would that be an equal society?

>>18915348
>that seeks to achieve the endpoint now without going through the necessary transformations
A lie passed down through the ages. We know what the steps are. We take them, but enemies, false friends and liars betray us.
Your camp is like the Catholic Church burning people at the stake for believing differently, not kissing the papal robe.
> the necessary steps
Which apparently involve environmental degradation, and their first foray into pandemics. A soft genocide of the global proletariat. Just to balance the labor surplus I suppose. Any day now.

>>18915348
>It is the communist states that have been doing the work required to expand human freedom
>Freedom through slavery!
Are you even real?

>>18915250
what are you even saying, economics (production and exchange of life necessities) doesn't apply to reality, but Hegelian contradictions do?

>>18915377
>You don't own land in China, you are renting it from the government.
Yes but in China you have great autonomy over that land and can do what you want with it. The land belongs to the Republic (the people) and this is to prevent against situations like what’s happening in the US with the private company blackrock buying up all the real estate.
>hundred of thousands of educated Chinese people immigrate to the West every year?
What’s your source for this?

>>18915377
They currently have a greater respect for private property in China than in leftism-infested West.

>>18915404
>what are you even saying, economics (production and exchange of life necessities) doesn't apply to reality, but Hegelian contradictions do?
Yes.

>>18915407
>Yes but in China you have great autonomy over that land .....
Don't try to use home ownership as an example of China's greatness when they literally don't own their homes lmao

>What’s your source for this?
Figure related is for the USA, and over a eight year period we see ~62500 Chinese immigrants a year.
Add the stats from Canada (https://www.cicnews.com/2020/02/a-quarter-of-canadas-immigrants-arrived-from-india-in-2019-0213700.html#gs.9qt9bk):
>in 2019, China was a distant second with 30,000 of its citizens becoming new immigrants to Canada [behind India]
And Australia:
>https://www.statista.com/statistics/1002760/australia-net-overseas-migration-from-china/
Where ~20,000 Chinese people immigrated to Australia.

(Note that I am ignoring stats from 2020 and 2021, because of COVID and related disturbances).

That adds up to ~102,500. And that's ignoring any immigrants to the UK or the rest of the West.

>>18915454
Forgot the figure

As much as I hate commies I have to admit that's a mighty beard.

>>18914856
No it's not. The idea is that capitalism creates its own crises by overproducing. Basically factories produce a fuck ton, the supply goes up, & becomes subsequently worthless. Now I'm not an economist so I don't know if Marx's view here has held up, but it's certainly nothing like what you're describing.

>>18914844
it literally collapses every ten years. it's just turned into a drawn out episode of weekend at bernies where globohomo neolibs/cons are holding it up by strings

>>18915392
>A lie passed down through the ages. We know what the steps are. We take them, but enemies, false friends and liars betray us.
This is why you’re larpy, you’re rebelling against “the man” ostensibly but you don’t seem to have any understanding of what you oppose. Against History! Against Leviathan! you’d say, but honestly this is just the aesthetic of rebellion. Please, tell me how the anarchist revolution will play out.
>>18915397
>Freedom through slavery!
Kant defined freedom as the ability to set rational rules for oneself and follow them. In Christian terminology this is “being a servant of God.” There is nothing wrong with “enslaving” oneself to rules that are righteous, in fact this is what freedom truly is. Anarchists do not understand this, they merely have a negative conception of freedom— “freedom from” everything. Morality gets lost in this, and freedom gets reduced animalistic desire.

>>18914907
good

>>18915048
>Well some blame the CIA for that.
It can't all be the CIA. I can't see what their interest would even be in politically irrelevant small communes. Far more likely that abuse happens because of their relative isolation & lack of oversight.

>>18914907
>>18915302

>>18915454
Ok so 100,000 a year. The Chinese have a population of 1.4 billion. This is nothing lmao

Communism was right about everything and its opponents were wrong about everything.

>>18915378
The average citizen’s quality of life in China continues to rise, and approval for the state stays high because of this. None of the bullshit you rattled off matters compared to that tb h. I’ll check out those videos if you share them tho

>>18915477
This. Nobody sees it. I guess more and more people will see it in time.
By the way it's dead since 2008. It got a few more years left since 2015, with quantitative easing (Karl Marx's fictitious Capital). Since end 2019, phantom menace of negative interest rates, so the superclass had to put the corona smoke screen in place.

>>18915478
>Anarchists do not understand this LIE
You’re larping with us, agent Kant.

>>18915486
No, I mean getting the anti war movement hooked on drugs in the 60s. And taking advantage of the peace movement, which is still being used, though with less success than the previous decades.

There are places experimenting with moneyless living. Working put okay

>>18915020
Bay zed

>hates marxists
>is a marxist
What did he mean by this?

>>18915473
If you actually look into why that phenomenon produces a "contradiction", it's for the reason I just gave (note: Higher supply of goods does not make those goods worthless, it just lowers the price per product). Subsequently, rich people become richer and the poor become poorer. This is nature working as intended, and it is not an actual contradiction.

>>18915675
I'm not a Marxist and would agree that inequality & hierarchies are an inevitable product of any civilization. But I've read enough Marx to roughly follow his line of thought. Besides the tendency to over-produce, he also argues capitalism ensues its own destruction by bringing workers together thus allowing them to concieve of themselves as a unified group & collectively advocate their own interest. I'm not sure what you mean by stating that this contradiction is "natural"

>>18915621
marxists are philosophizing faggots detached from the real life. communists are engaged in building up the working class movement.

>>18915675
capitalism producing poverty constitutes a contradiction within it for the very simple reason that it by the same token creates a mass of people whose ultimate interest lies in undermining capitalism.

>>18915777
>Besides the tendency to over-produce
Again, is not a contradiction, it is a natural result of higher efficiency, which enables resources to be diverted elsewhere when they are no longer needed to sustain a given level of production of one type of product, and other more luxurious products can then be made for the upper classes, making their lives better.
>capitalism ensues its own destruction by bringing workers together
Why does it supposedly bring workers together? Because the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So the supposed contradiction still lies in the fundamental fact of reality: inequality. But again, this is not a contradiction, but a feature.

>>18914844
>>18914856
Schmitt debunked this shit long ago

>>18915791
>So the supposed contradiction still lies in the fundamental fact of reality: inequality. But again, this is not a contradiction, but a feature.
>>18915777
Also the reason the poor will never effectively revolt against the rich is the same reason cattle will never revolt against the ranchers. Cattle are meant to be fed and milked, and it is happy with that much. It wouldn't know what to do if it had more. The only way to get cattle to "revolt against the rancher" would be for someone to whip them up into a crazed frenzy and stampede (basically like the Bolsheviks after the Russian cattle had not been fed well enough), but this wouldn't ultimately achieve anything except the trampling of the rancher and the scattering of the cattle across the landscape, no longer productive. But in the case of Russia, the Bolshevik leaders became the new ranchers.

>>18915791
>Why does it supposedly bring workers together? Because the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. So the supposed contradiction still lies in the fundamental fact of reality: inequality. But again, this is not a contradiction, but a feature.
Because prior under a feudal system working people would've been more divided. Think many different artisan guilds vs. everyone together on the factory floor. In the setting of industrial capitalism all alike are thrust into a similar impoverished position & so can conceive of themselves as belonging to a common class. By contradiction he means that this feature produces an entire group of people whose interest is opposed to that of their bosses. Of course in prior eras there was inequality and different interests producing conflict.

>>18915808
>this wouldn't ultimately achieve anything except the trampling of the rancher and the scattering of the cattle across the landscape, no longer productive. But in the case of Russia, the Bolshevik leaders became the new ranchers.
I agree this is why im not a Marxist. Revolution of working people just leads different powerful actors to seize power & the creatuon of a totalitarian state

The critiques of capitalism are used to advocate for communism but it's only pushed me further towards national socialism to be honest.

>>18914836
They're not.
>>18914855
>he got it right with the cycles of crisis of capitalism.
He did not.

>>18915986
>They're not.
>He did not.
MARX BTFO

Capitalism puts a price on the best things humanity has to offer, love, family, patriotism and so on. It’s deeply fatalistic.

Capitalism also changes truth. Sugar companies cooperate with human gluttony to create a narrative that it’s good to be fat. Extrapolate this to every mode of human life. It lets society lie to itself.

>>18915404
contradiction is when it doesn't apply to reality you idiot.

it's like adding 1 apple and 2 mountain and count it as 3 same thing.

every symbol, deduction, logic, mathematical model, delusional thinking, hope, and procedure is always ignoring it's content. all is abstracted away, what hegelian contradiction essentially is that this dependence on the abstraction will found it contradiction on it's content.

say, capitalism produces more and more ad infinitum, and now we have to tackle climate change issue

2008 crisis, is a contradiction, we all thought that this free market will just do it's thing, and then the house market collapse.

call it feature, or strength, or what you want. contradiction is still, thinking in those abstracted term while ignoring it.

even marxist got it's own set of internal contradiction. the point is to move on

>>18914856
That’s not what he meant by internal contradictions, you retard. How about you actually read, you mong.

Marx carried on the ideas of altruism. Previously, the altruistic ideal group was carried by the monarchists. Monarchism and the ideals of duty provide a sense of safety and stability through their structured and powerful hierarchy. The problem monarchism had was that infighting with other monarchist states would cause instability.
Marxists states do not have that problem as they were historically united together (ComInter, for example). A Marxist society has stability and safety through guaranty of work and living space, which a capitalistic society may not have. A Capitalistic society, which is based of free choice, does not not provide that sense as your future may be dictated by the forces of markets, and even if it isn't, your shit choices may ruin you. Altho Capitalistic societies are richer and have a higher quality living standard, the sense of safety that a Marxist one has, is not there. My father lived in a socialist state, and from his experience and from statistics one can prove my arguments. There were barely any people without work and most to all people had a home. In the west, however, there were many more homeless people and many jobless individuals, yet society was generally more advanced, free and richer than its counterpart.
Marxs critiques of Capitalism (next to exploitation and unjust hierarchy) were based of that fact, the uncertainty and instability a Capitalistic system has towards a individual.

>gets BTFO a million times over
>people still cling to the failure that is Marxism in 2021
Truly I have no hope for humanity.

>>18916265
>say, capitalism produces more and more ad infinitum, and now we have to tackle climate change issue
Climate change isn't real.

>2008 crisis, is a contradiction, we all thought that this free market will just do it's thing, and then the house market collapse.
2008 crisis was due to the U.S. government interfering in the market, was nowhere near a free market.

>>18915927
What I find bizarre and telling about your post is about how "national socialism" is great but your pic is of a multimillionaire Instagram model, Nata Lee, at a ski resort in her underwear. It's basically just an advertisement, so the aesthetics of a capitalist society and a "national socialist" society are probably perfectly compatible.

It's like Zoolander or something. Everyone is going to be white, beautiful and rich, and wear Gucci outfits and anyone who doesn't fit in this picture gets blasted:

https://youtu.be/ZnZ2XdqGZWU?t=168

It wouldn't even be a real change in a mode of production though, it'd be a change in administration of the existing society. I don't think it's gonna last forever though.

>>18916511
If the Chinese government didn't order their state-owned steel companies to crank up production during the 2008 crisis to stabilize the global economy, the western economies would've been in really serious trouble. But the western capitalist economies kicked the can down the road. That's why I think China has been doing what's doing lately with consolidating party control over the economy and reemphasizing the state-owned sector -- they think capitalism is on its way out.

>>18915927
based

>>18916511
fuck off, read 2008 crash again, those free market you thought of is being swindled by private bank. and they are being swindled right because the US regulation is fucking lax.

>>18915808
>Also the reason the poor will never effectively revolt against the rich is the same reason cattle will never revolt against the ranchers. Cattle are meant to be fed and milked, and it is happy with that much.
You are merely projecting your own unhealthy worldview/psychological state onto the real world, because your brain has been fried with the modern ideology of bourgeois psychopathy, made much more cynical in recent decades. It's evil, but this evil is only strong inasmuch in that it removes the barriers to complete and total competition between people, total dehumanization of disposable human beings who are branded and treated like animals, and "total war" between people -- the pervading logic of capitalism.

You are Jeffrey Epstein, basically. Or think of the world in a similar way. But this evil is only strong on an interpersonally antagonistic level, while cooperation and solid reciprocal relationships -- the building blocks of a cooperative and reciprocal society -- will always be more efficient, more robust, and stronger than the individual competitive equivalent, from a long-term perspective.

https://youtu.be/eVbShUW6QBM

>>18916528
I wrote my post then just picked whatever image caught my eye while scrolling through my folder. Posts with images get read more than posts without. In any case I think the changes would be substantial if we look at the banks, international corporations, media conglomerates and elite cliques we see today.
I even think the changes would be so radical that the "lefitsts" you see today would cling to capitalism like a lifeboat. They don't really care about anything more than bourgeoisie depravity, and they would rather side with the corporations and the liberal establishment that enable this than side with "fascists".

>>18916630
Well I apologize. I think there's been an enormous amount of psychological damage inflicted on people though, so people just don't trust each other, which is perfect if you're rich, because people won't threaten you. Bonds of solidarity between people are undermined, so when there's a crisis, people just scatter. They retreat into their private domains and that works out well enough for Amazon which is selling them entertainment or the stuff they need.

Some people say there can't be socialism because there's too much racism, others say there can't be socialism because there's too much diversity. So, I'm in a dark mood, but what happens is that you just don't get socialism for awhile as society just locks up and turns into Brazil or something. Most people are poor and you have this tiny elite who think everyone are cattle like the other anon said. I think people like Grimes and Elon probably think this way and would fit the part of fascist leaders of this future. But it won't be the rednecks who make that decision, it'll be Reddit liberals or something.

But like I said, it wouldn't last forever, or over the long term. After a few generation of living in these slums, you'd have this mutt socialist revolution sweep the country and that's RIP for Grimesy.

>>18914907
I wish we could do this to academics today.

>>18915377
Lots of countries are like that, the Chinese got that idea from the British.

>>18916265
Ok, the system either has some self regulating mechanisms and feedback loops (it's homeostat - biological organisms belong here) and thus is stable within reasonable range of environmental conditions or it lacks them and is simply not able to exist beyond the basic experimental stage. Marxist "solution" of discarding private ownership collapses within weeks for starters (terror is necessary to extend its existence beyond that - and obviously you cannot do it forever) and thus it belongs to the latter category, and I have shown you that his claim that "capitalism" is not stable originate in a simple lack of understanding of what a free market exchange even is.
They can babble about "contradictions" forever, what is beyond question is that the system of free market exchange is incomparably more stable that the system that is supposed to replace it.

>>18916585
There is no such thing as evil. There is strong and weak. This is reality, uncorrupted by bourgeois and proletarian ideology (communism and capitalism). The world always has and always will work this way.

>>18914844
fpbp

communists are no different than fucking 7 day adventist

idiot cultists

His critique of capitalism seems rather obvious and can be reasoned through experience without even reading Marx.

The solutions to these problems, however, is another matter.

>>18914855
>>18914862
>>18915477
>>18915570
>it'll collapse any day now guys! i swear the worldwide socialist revolution is right around the corner! so what if 90% of socialist states don't exist anymore! any day now!

Explain the difference between you faggots and a Jehovah's Witness constantly predicting the apocalypse

>>18916546
>If the Chinese government didn't order their state-owned steel companies to crank up production during the 2008 crisis to stabilize the global economy, the western economies would've been in really serious trouble
They just took advantage of what was going on. It would have been better if we just let it crash completely.

>>18916583
>free market
No such thing. 2008 was due to U.S. government interfering in the economy.

>>18917225
JWs wait for their deaths.
We want the earth back

>>18917166
Yes. It's basically the same as evangelicals prosephyzing the 2nd coming. Most I doubt could even forward a definition of capitalism beyond "everything in the world that's suppa bad and evil and oppressive and Industrial, etc."

>>18916036
>Sugar companies cooperate with human gluttony to create a narrative that it’s good to be fat. Extrapolate this to every mode of human life. It lets society lie to itself
I would agree that companies exploiting health problems especially among the poor is bad. I just don't see how getting rid of private property doesn't end up leading to similar if not more exploitation as it would require vesting an extraordinary amount of power in one group.

>>18915048
This just a picture or is it a book? Looks pretty based.

>>18914862
Locally run governments don't work and can't work. The world is too interconnected butters. Leftists have to find another way.

>>18915377
Huh? In the US you pay taxes on the land forvever. If you don't they tax it. Same thing here. If they want to take it. They say it's for the public benefit and they take it. The US wishes it had the power of China's state. The US has to use lies and loopholes to do what China does whenever it wants.

>>18914836
>critique of capitalism is extremely accurate.
It is fairly accurate for the time at which it was produced, it isn't really anymore. Within the right context, it can be used to understand why we should move toward a benevolent form of national socialism in order to defeat the modern (capitalistic inter-)nationalism.

>>18917166
America about to be BTFO'd by a Communist state, are you retarded? In case you haven't noticed. China is taking all of America friends because America is bipolar and foreign policy changes with every president. They also control the value of their money, which everyone has to trade in because they manufacture everything. They have publicly stated, 5, 10, and 20 year plans. While the US sits on it's ass trying to figure out how to make more money.

>>18916036
>It lets society lie to itself.
That's leftism in a nutshell.

>>18918207
> 1. End immigration
> 2. Nationalize real estate. Expropriate all landlords except those that sublet part of their own housing. Institute a national housing system where your home is determined by the size of your family, work location, access to transportation, etc. Individuals or familial units are allowed to privately own 1 house/building on top of the one granted by the State.
> 3. Restrict ownership of small cars based on work need. Expand public transportation and tramways into the rural centers surrounding all major urban areas.
> 4. Nationalize large surface low-value goods stores like Costco, Walmart, etc, and use their system of market prediction in order to control the market for low value goods.
> 5. Restart immigration, but only on the basis of strong cultural affinity/exception of character.
> 6. Empower large urban centers and their regional surroundings at the constitutional level (cultural and material interests are not shared at the State/Provincial/whatever level, pretending that they are is fooling ourselves).
> 7. Fuck your horseshoe brain.

>>18918218
Why do so many morons try to sound politically educated or interested on the internet? It's so transparent and idiotic.

The heckin cure is worse than the disease!

>>18918223
You sound sooooo dumb

>>18915348
"Anarchism" is the poor's man version of Marxism. Both Anarchism and Marxism are a waste of time. Both of them are useless ideologies for people who are envious property owners.
>nothing of value.
Value is a phantasm. Human life intrinsically has no value besides the value we nominally access to it. You knuckleheads put too much emphasize of saving of essentially bags of water that are meant to die regardless of what you do. Why don't you do something more fun with your time here? You people must not have a lot friends if care so much these things. There's no way you have a life if you let an idea, such communism, own you.
>Communism is something that evolves out of historical process,
Lmao, who believes some stupid shit like this? How can communism "evolve" - its not even real. That's the problem with you communists; you anthropomorphize ideas which are essentially spiritual abstractions haunting your head. You've invented a new religion of that worships man and the ramblings of a mediocre sociologist from 200 years ago.

>>18918258
Cope harder faggot.

>>18918258
Internet leftists have no self esteem. Being anonymous, and being a psued, is one the few ways they can cope with having ADHD and NPD

>>18918218
>BTFO
You're gonna still be working nine to five. You're still going to be a nobody when you die. The personal problems you face in life, which you're obviously trying to escape by venting on 4chan about America, aren't going to go away. You have such a pathetic life that only spite is keeping you alive.

>>18918489
Is not improving the lives of your fellow man a righteous and Christian goal? This is the goal of communism.

>>18918894
You can give away your stuff, but don't go trying to take other peoples stuff so you can give that away too. Commies seem to have immense difficulty with this concept

>>18918908
It’s not a problem in china

>>18918894
>Is not improving the lives of your fellow man a righteous and Christian goal?
I don't have to give about any cause but my own.

>>18918913
China has nothing to do with Christianity and all its successes followed economic liberalization

>>18918894
"Away,with every cause that is not completely my affair. You think that at least the “good cause” must be my affair? Which good, which bad? I am myself my own affair, and I am neither good nor bad. Neither makes any sense to me. "
" For me, there is nothing greater than me! "
Fuck your "causes." I only care about myself.

>>18918934
How's that going for you anon? Are you happy? Satisfied?

>>18918988
I'm always happy when I'm shitposting on /lil/ mocking faggots like you. When I'm not doing that; I'm pretending I'm one of you to get anons mad. It works out well

>>18919005
You sound angry and lonely anon

>>18919012
Zarathustra loved to fight and loved solitude. Life would be so boring if there was no hubris.
Vivere militare!

>>18919078
the cope is real

>>18915107
based i want to rape butters too

>>18918147
great book desu

>>18916630
>they would rather side with the corporations and the liberal establishment that enable this than side with "fascists".
didn't liberals side with the nazis to quash the german communist party? kek natsocs are such brainlets

>>18918258
not an argument

>>18918221
>socialism is when capitalism
KEK every time

>>18918489
>You've invented a new religion of that worships man and the ramblings of a mediocre sociologist from 200 years ago.
Marxists btfo

>>18915025
>>Communist China is neoliberal
Wouldn't communist China post-Mao (read: Deng) be the neoliberal state par excellence? I'm thoroughly confused about this boards view of China and/or neo-liberalism.

>>18919697
it's part of a chang psyop

>>18914836
>>18914855
so, basically, he blames the consequences of the actions of his Rothschild cousins on groups of middle/lower high class goyim
and the solution is to give that place to whom i wonder?
wow, what a genius

>>18920175
this sounds like a QRD you got from a /pol/yp who's never read marx

>>18920175
please tell me how you got to this retarded conclusion

>>18920208
do you mind telling me how am i wrong?

>>18918218
>china
>communist
are you retarded? China hasn't been communist since Deng.

>>18920247
you're implying that marx advocates for handing the means of production to a (((group))) who isn't the working class which for anyone in the least bit acquainted with marx would know is so wrong that only a retard who terminally browses /pol/ would believe it

>>18920246
it is a fact he was born in a long lineage of rabbis and that he was related to the Rothschild family
about the rest- what was among the first acts of Lenin and comrades in newly established state? granting "equal" rights to jews who were rightly persecuted for destroying the natives and especially peasants with usury and alcohol trade, while at the same time putting those natives at perpetual state of "great reset"
first state with no fault divorce, first with legal aborions, incentivize women to participate in the workforce and education so as to collapse their birthrate, making them perpetually dysgenic

>>18920287
ahistorical ramblings aside, would you like to point to exactly where marx advocated for any of this? explicitly or otherwise?

>>18920283
>you're implying that marx advocates for handing the means of production to a (((group))) who isn't the working class
no, i implied that solution after marx-inspired "revolutions" is always implemented in a way to benefit jews to an even greater extent
> #3 Abolition of all rights of inheritance.
was this point ever addressed by any marxist regime? did they take inheritance from those that control the money supply? didn't think so

>>18920347
prove to me that capitalists (jews, if you will) benefited to a greater degree within the soviet union, or any socialist/communist state for that matter, than they do in the united states or anglosphere at large

>>18920304
well, as posted below he advocated for abolition of all rights of inheritance
now, i can make it easier if i connect the dots for you: if one cannot pass the products of his blood and sweat onto his children, then what's the point in being married or having a family?
but, i suppose you will ask for a source, a peer-reviewed study for something as simple as that, so no point in further discussion

Communism will win

>>18920399
>obviously [AHISTORICAL ACCOUNT] led to [INCIDENTAL POLICY]
>no i will not provide sources
oh the things /pol/tards will do to avoid opening a book

>>18918223
>1. End immigration
Pretty much has ended because of the pandemic. If you rely on undocumented labor in U.S. now, you're fucked. The anti-immigration people won big. They should be out cheering but they're still bitching.

>>18918489
>You've invented a new religion of that worships man and the ramblings of a mediocre sociologist from 200 years ago.
That rules though. It's hilarious that this happened.

https://youtu.be/aoVVDpU1StA?t=608

>>18920425
what are you talking about?
here is something from wiki(which we all know is very anti-semitic):
>His maternal grandfather was a Dutch rabbi, while his paternal line had supplied Trier's rabbis since 1723, a role taken by his grandfather Meier Halevi Marx
if only we could go further back, but oh well, guess that info like that is irrelevant for wiki editors
as for the rothschild claim, see pic related, you can also find it on wiki among other sites i believe
he was also closely related to the founder
of Philips company, maybe he should've started by stealing his capital first

>>18914836
Check out the Austrian school’s critique of Marxian pseudo economics.

>>18918489
>You knuckleheads put too much emphasize of saving of essentially bags of water that are meant to die regardless of what you do.
And what's this anon's philosophy called? Anyone in the class know the answer?

https://youtu.be/DIexJCpFsD8?t=52

>>18920455
but what does this have to do with the work of marx or even the bolshevik revolution? surely since you've read marx and lenin you will be able to unambiguously dispel the idea that these things are purely incidental, and will endeavor to provide an informed and coherent reason for bringing lineage into the discussion... r-right?

>>18920493
if you are moving the goalpost as a tactic to try to rustle my jimmies, i must say-i'm sorry
>and will endeavor to provide an informed and coherent reason for bringing lineage into the discussion
if lineage doesn't matter, class matters even less, so the whole communism thingy falls apart

>>18920455
It's almost comical how little restraint /pol/tards have on their MUH JOOS outbursts. Like what the fuck does this have to do with anything anon?
I suggest going back

>>18920539
kek nigger when were the goalposts moved? this is a discussion about the work of marx, then you gave an ahistorical account of bolshevik policy, and now you're stuck stuck about jews. you're just a fucking brainlet out of your depth, on /lit/ of all places

>>18920556
>this is a discussion about the work of marx, then you gave an ahistorical account of bolshevik policy
can marxists discuss the work of Hitler without mentioning the holocaust, or his ethnic/racial policy? i cited a point Marx himself made in his manifesto, yet you ignored it
marxism was just a cover for the jews so they can employ their racial war under the guise of class war, and capitalism was the class war where they took hold of money control, but i guess you can't think that big and you won't read that in your kosher books
if they don't care about lineage and ethnicity, why did they work so hard to cover up who makes the majority of communist movements? even today, you get scrubbed bios of people like Allende(pic related), and in the '30s jews were discouraged from joining the communist party in the usa for fear of party being too, well, jewish

>>18920614
at this point I'm just as retarded as you are for engaging with you in the first place, so I'm going to leave it where it's at. I just want to tell you that you desperately need to get off /pol/ and start educating yourself properly because it's evident to all that /pol/ schizo graphs are rotting your brain

>>18920646
>start educating yourself properly
tell me where to start anon, i'm willing to listen without insulting you even though you aren't

>>18917232
dude, they create their own monetary system based on buying off debt. not under strict regulation, where it should. and it failed. that is the closest think you can think of free market, and it failed because people are fucking stupid

>>18920683
I'm not even trying to insult you, I'm genuinely concerned for how terminal /pol/ users think in these binary patterns and annoyingly engage similarly on boards outside of /pol/.
pic rel is a comprehensive marxism reading list. I obviously don't expect anyone who isn't a scholar to read all of this but at a minimum, I recommend the manifesto, the german ideology, and state and revolution by lenin, and dialectical and historical materialism by stalin. These aren't that long. For political economy, Capital is optimal reading, but Wage Labour and Capital, and Value, Price and Profit are good enough substitutes. Then if you want to keep reading, just choose what interests you. You could also just follow what the notes say down the bottom.

>>18918156
They can work, they have worked. They tend to get busted up by bullies, and fags let them because they look handsome in some silly uniform. They offer to shine their boots with their tongues, they love them so much.
Our increasing interconnectivity is what can save us.
Leftists, anarchists on the real “left” are looking for new ways. Tankies are the ones living in the past.

>>18920838
>Leftists, anarchists on the real “left” are looking for new ways. Tankies are the ones living in the past.
Tankies don't live in the past so much as they critically observe and strive to learn from history in order to do better next time. Anarchism is a psyop.

>>18920857
t. tankie

>>18920864
yes, and?

>>18920867
go invade Finland and cause fascism

>>18920838
i hate current form of anarchism, nothing new, locally run government, or electronical form of voting that never get past parlement or some worker controlled shit but conveniently only applies to upper middle class job.

still i believe in it. tho.

>>18920887
similar boat here. all anyone cares about is municipalism or bookchinite communalism at this point. i wanna live a free life and not just ingest ideology

>>18920883
t. historylet

OP has not putting up a single line from the book as evidence, he provides not a single line of his own original thought as means of directing the thread.
>hehe actually not so bad if u think bout it XDDDD
because it gets you the (yous)

OP and everyone who responded to this thread should be ashamed

>>18920883
Kek

>>18920929
:D

>>18920857
They use their idea of history.
They do try to think outside the box, but it only includes boxes within their big box. They’re Trots, they’re Dengists, some hate Harvey, some like him. But few of them seem to even discover Öcalan and Bookchin. They usually just rip their ideas apart to appease their handlers. It’s a ruddy faith and going nowhere fast.

>>18920887
There’s dozens of very different bands and I don’t care for some. Especially the pacifists. They seem to be a thoroughly infiltrated controlled opposition and worse than the fake antifa imo.

What kind of jobs should they do? I keep thinking of agriculture, small businesses and healthcare, like bakeries, pizza parlors, cafes, dentistry and pediatrics

>>18921014
>It’s a ruddy faith and going nowhere fast.
as opposed to anarchism? KEK

>>18920857
Tankies just larp as if they live in the past. Anarchists should just murder them. Get rid of those loose ends early.

>>18921048
As opposed to our mutual enemy, state-capitalism

>>18914862
>It collapses as a feature. It doesn’t work.
Everything collapses. Including Communism. Some systems collapse sooner than others.

>>18915377
you rent land in america too , what do you think taxes are

>>18915002
Cherry picking. Inequality is inherent in nature. Some Inequalities are worse than others, some are exaserbated. The best system will win.

>>18921102
good luck organising that KEK

>>18921129
The Russian Anarchist would just bomb the meetings of Bolshevik leaders and killed scores of them.

They probably should just start doing that again since a lot of tankie parties operate via legalism. Their officers are publicly known.

>>18921111
>I’ll buy that car off you. Brakes don’t work? That’s fine. We all gotta die sometime

>>18921119
>Some people got it pretty good! We need to enforce inequality! Exaggerate it even!! MY SYSTEM IS BEST BECAUSE OF THE WEAPONS THAT ENFORCE IT

>>18921102
Just when you see them try to assume power

>>18921139
>Just when you see them try to assume power
Lmao, why even wait? Kill them now. Kill them while they're weak. Libertarians, Ancaps, miniarchists, conservative minded people could be convinced to join you, and just massacre these idiots like Rittenhouse did.
It would not be difficult to just roll up some PSL, CPUSA etc people and just go poppin if people really wanted to

>>18921155
Don’t be eager to draw blood and don’t make preemptive strikes.
After the Russian revolution, anarchists from the black army and reactionaries from the white army joined the winning red army in some numbers. Reasonably satisfied with the results it seems

>>18921183
You're an idiot. To be clear. You're going to be curve stomped by them because you didn't eliminate them sooner. But that's really your problem, not mine, because you're the revolutionary. Me, however, realize its probably best to wait until you idiots start shooting each other so the national guard, like did for the Paris commune, can just mow you fucking degenerates down with a blank check.

>>18921138
>citing the past
wow living in the past much?

>>18921207
Not discussing hypothetical battle strategies with you, but when you refer to me you refer to whole communities (or maybe nothing at all)

>>18921232
No, because I don't care too much for Anarchism of Marxist non-sense. It's just sophistry. Killing you both is more of a thing for me. We aren't going to be using bombs though. There are much better ways.

>>18921253
This is the female soi face

>>18921254
nice LARP faggot

>>18921262

>>18921306
holy shit im speaking to THE kyle rittenhouse right now on 4channel

>>18921306
*pop*

>>18921261
Said the NPC face

god anarchists are retarded

>>18914855
>j-just one more generation! y-you'll see!

>>18916708
you have to be part of a subculture to be fascist
>>18919568
not liberals but "social democrats", stalin called them "social fascists" for a reason. which is funny because italian fascism rose out of rejection of social democracy.
>>18921139
i generally agree with you butters but be careful about calls for "equality"
>Communism is inequality, but not as property is. Property is the exploitation of the weak by the strong. Communism is the exploitation of the strong by the weak.
-Proudhon

>>18915041
>deng is neo liberal
dude what?
you have to explain that to me.

>>18914836
Marx is good but passéiste. In the modern world every socialist revolution has and always will take the form of Fascism.

There is no escaping this.

>>18921861
I don’t care what Any of the anarchist thinkers wrote. The commune is ideally the masses helping each other despite their manifest inequities

>>18921874
Is China a communist nation? The answer is no. Yes their single party rule is on the authoritarian side, certainly. But this is NOT what communism is.
In many ways their economy is more free market than Wall Street. Only difference is the government steps in to reign in what it will see as an abuse by a millionaire, whereas the US govt serves the Wall Streeter

>>18921861
social democrats are liberals

>>18921926
>In many ways their economy is more free market than Wall Street.
holy fuck just kill yourself already you obscene tranny

>>18921926
>I don’t care what Any of the anarchist thinkers wrote.
are you butters!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!? I keep asking you this but you sound so different
>he commune is ideally the masses helping each other despite their manifest inequities
patriotism is healthy part of being able to enact this

china is not communist nor is it socialist but newsflash, socialism is a process and it happens after the capitalist mode of production is rendered obsolete, not overnight. china is a corporative economy.

>>18922203
they're not supposed to be, they're marxists who want to achieve the revolution by the vote after the crisis of 20th century marxism

>>18922214
>they're not supposed to be, they're marxists who want to achieve the revolution by the vote after the crisis of 20th century marxism
I get that, but just so we're clear, they are still liberals

>>18922252
ok but if they want socialism, i.e abolition of private property and worker ownership then they are socialists.

i do agree the generally tend to be liberal, and I don't like them because of that.

>>18922280
>ok but if they want socialism, i.e abolition of private property and worker ownership then they are socialists.
yeah I guess AOC is a socialist too, right?

>>18922315
she advocates for abolition of private property?
again, that liberals co-opted the social democracy label doesn't mean that social democrats weren't once socialists

anyway i see aoc as a reactionary latino nationalist

>>18914836
>this guy's critique of capitalism is extremely accurate.
>TrumpWrong.gif

Read The Mirror of Production.

>>18922332
can i get a tl;dr on it or a good place to find one?
i always try to take in as much info as possible and any book can be simplified.

did baudrillard grow out of maoism? did he still advocate for socialism in his twilight years? is labor theory of value even essential for socialism? i read in other places that marx advocated monetary theory of value and that everyone is actually confused but I can't find that.

>>18922321
>controlled opposition

>>18922372
what?

>>18920646
>start educating yourself properly
>recommends a bunch of shit books that aren't critical of themselves
lefty "education" everyone

>>18920614
because anti semitism is a popular idea and obviously people trying to lead populist movements dont want to be known as a jew.

>>18922390
nigger are seriously saying that you should skip a topic's primary texts if you want a to learn said topic? in fact, that's literally the reason /pol/ is so shit. you embarrass yourself.

He was not only right, but we have to rise up and lynch the capitalist vampires if we are to survive the 21st century as a species.

>>18922452
what are some good websites for discussing political ideology with a more leftist bent.

lefty /pol/ is pretty much the reverse of /pol/ so just as gross. i also want accounts so people can be held accountable for their posts.

>>18914836
His critique of the Jew is also extremely accurate right anon?

>>18919568
You think that would ever happen today? Not a chance.

>>18922452
>are seriously saying that you should skip a topic's primary texts if you want a to learn said topic?
No, but that's not "educating" oneself; that's just seeing one side of the aisle. I'm not defending that Marx is a jewish psy-op (although he does have slight jewish elements in his oeuvre), but what you're doing is embarrassing.

>>18922280
you can phrasemonger about the most revolutionary things and still be a liberal in practice. not to mention that most of those people see either state ownership or co-op capitalism as "the abolition of private property and worker ownership", so even when speaking ideally (and not in terms of practice), they can still contrast themselves to capitalism only on the basis of miscomprehending it, which they are condemned to due to their middle class interests:
>Mr Proudhon is, from top to toe, a philosopher, an economist of the petty bourgeoisie. In an advanced society and because of his situation, a petty bourgeois becomes a socialist on the one hand, and economist on the other, i.e. he is dazzled by the magnificence of the upper middle classes and feels compassion for the sufferings of the people. He is at one and the same time bourgeois and man of the people. […] He is nothing but social contradiction in action.

>>18922321
social-democrats were once socialists, but they categorically stopped being socialists with the fall of the Second International. since then they only represented the "progressive" wing of the bourgeoisie. and not even the most "progressive" at that, when you compare them with fascism or with what China is doing right now

>>18922339
how about you read Marx first? you'll never gain any knowledge from empty catchwords you overheard from academic Marxologists or from reading incomprehensible French philosophers

>>18922488
there aren't any. if you're looking for understanding then read a book or two. if you're looking for entertainment, then go do something else, because watching children on the internet, detached from the real world, bicker about things they know nothing about, motivated by sheer aesthetics, is about the worst entertainment available in today's world

>>18914836
Yeah people actually should read him. I hate commies as much as the next guy but there is a reason why Marx is seen as one of the founders of sociology.

Some of his social and economical views (for example the commodification of time and natural life) are still extremely relevant.

>>18922744
cunt if someone wants to participate in a discussion about MARXISM then they need to educate themselves on MARXISM ergo I will recommend MARXIST texts, not some right wingers shit for brains interpretation and critique of it.

>>18922838
very good post. i like it. baudrillard isn't incomprehensible though.

i have not read marx apart from excerpts because I am genuinely not a fan of theory as opposed to praxis. gentile also accused him of crypto idealism so there's that. i am much more concerned with achieving practical results than getting lost in the time sink of theory and risk becoming an """intellectual""".

that there are so many interpretations of Marx worries me greatly, which is why I feel the need to pick one and go with it. from my understanding capitalism is a necessary stage in the dialectic and this was the great failure of men such as lenin. corporatism to me seems like a good solution for capitalism to fulfill it's historical process before socialist mode of production is achieved.

>>18915075
>This board is full of communist who see China as on the path to a truly communist society, and who see Deng Xiaoping's economic reforms as a needed reform to get there.
Yes

>>18923011
Whatever

Is there a book that summarizes Marx's theories? I'm not reading 3000 pages of Kapital.

>>18918207
>it can be used to understand why we should move toward a benevolent form of national socialism in order to defeat the modern (capitalistic inter-)nationalism.
Faggot

>>18922339
IMO no. You might need some brain power or a good grounding in neoclassical theory but Sraffa's case against neoclassical capital and cost theories are convincing to me. Look up Production of Commodities by Means of Commodities. Be warned too that other than denying the need for labor-values to make an exploitation theory of profits viable, he also shows how there is no tendency for the rate of profit to fall as Marx had it by him making capital a constant. Look at me getting lost in the weeds, it's a slim but meaty book. I love it.

>>18920366
This. Proponents of the Judeo-Bolshevism theory can never answer that question.

>>18923145
thank you

>>18920786
Thanks

>>18921926
>Is China a communist nation? The answer is no. Yes their single party rule is on the authoritarian side, certainly. But this is NOT what communism is.
>In many ways their economy is more free market than Wall Street. Only difference is the government steps in to reign in what it will see as an abuse by a millionaire, whereas the US govt serves the Wall Streeter
No nation has achieved communism retard. China is entirely a Marxism-Leninist state. Even Lenin allowed for free market capitalism where he formed the Soviet Union.

>>18923183
>China is entirely a Marxism-Leninist state
nope because china is not state capitalist. chinese system is much closer to fascist corporatism and thus in my opinion closer to Marxist doctrine.

>>18923203
Explain the difference between corporatism and state capitalism.

>>18923213
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_capitalism

>>18923213
corporatism is state intervention. there are propertied classes who must play by the state's rules. state capitalism is when the propertied classes are replaced by bureaucrats.

>>18923239
>State capitalism is an economic system in which the state undertakes business and commercial (i.e. for-profit) economic activity and where the means of production are nationalized as state-owned enterprises (including the processes of capital accumulation, centralized management and wage labor). The definition can also include the state dominance of corporatized government agencies (agencies organized along business-management practices) or of public companies such as publicly listed corporations in which the state has controlling shares.[1]
That perfectly describes China.

>>18923246
Where are the propertied classes in China?

>>18923283
the people who own private property in china?
china recognizes and respects private property rights?
are you somehow going to tell me private persons dont own or cant start business in china?

>>18923306
I mis understood what you said but properties classes. I thought you meant actual defined classes like in Rome. In regards to private property, the early Soviet Union has that too.

>>18923333
early soviet union had NEP but only for 6 years. it was state capitalism after until the perestroika

>>18923351
>but only for 6 years.
Why does that matter?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fgm14D1jHUw

>>18923361
because it was a temporary expedient. there was no bureaucracy to take the role of the capitalists then. state ownership was official policy for over half a century after that.

>>18923373
>because it was a temporary expedient
This is the same with China, just over a much longer period.

>>18923380
no it isn't, unless you are somehow implying that the future of china is government ownership of property.

>>18923014
>pic
kek
>i have not read marx apart from excerpts because I am genuinely not a fan of theory as opposed to praxis.
well, if you read him you would know that its incorrect to oppose "theory" to "praxis" in this way when talking about communism. but it is apt for philosophers and marxologists, simply because they aren't communists but exactly philosophers or social scientists or economists, i.e. people who get paid for mental labour in bourgeois ideological institutions.

>i am much more concerned with achieving practical results
from the same letter I quoted earlier:
>[A] man who has failed to understand the present state of society must be even less able to understand either the movement which tends to overturn it or the literary expression of that revolutionary movement.

>that there are so many interpretations of Marx worries me greatly, which is why I feel the need to pick one and go with it.
or just like leave all the philosophical/marxologist/economic, in a word ideological presuppositions at the door and just read him and see what he said
>from my understanding capitalism is a necessary stage in the dialectic
not in "the dialectic" (that sounds as if you were talking about Hegel's idea) but in the real world. and not "necessary" in any way either. it's just how the history happened to unfold and how the productive basis for a communist society developed. at Marx's time it wasn't even necessary for the entire world to pass through capitalism. it's just that now we know that it has.
>and this was the great failure of men such as lenin
what failure? Lenin did almost all he could. he understood that Russia can't jump straight to socialism without the aid of developed capitalist Western Europe. he described the Soviet economy as not just not socialist but as aspiring towards state capitalism. a marked difference from the later lies of Stalin.
>corporatism to me seems like a good solution for capitalism to fulfill it's historical process before socialist mode of production is achieved.
capitalism doesn't need any form imposed onto it to "fulfill it's historical process". it doesn't even need to fulfill anything, because the basis for a communist society is already here. corporatism is a form capitalism can take in particular circumstances, but it isn't a "solution", because there isn't any "problem". or if there is, it's the bourgeoisie's problem of how to prevent catastrophe, but it's not like they can plan a solution consciously and then apply it. the solution rather imposes itself on them chaotically.
real problems and solutions at the level of social organization can only arise once society has genuine conscious control over this its organization, but this is only possible after capitalism is done away with.

>>18923125
well, if you attentively read just the first volume, you'll have better grasp than 99% of Marxists. or you can read just the first chapter of Capital and then chapters I.9-11, II.1-9 and III.1-5 of Anti-Dühring.

>>18922214
Yeah, of course I’m really me (doesn’t really matter in the end). Poorly phrased, I should have gone to bed when I wrote it. I mean I don’t hold any of it as sacred text. Proudhon has his good points and bad.
>patriotism is healthy
Nationalism isn’t healthy. “Solidarity” is our word, “community” is our name, “direct democracy” is our social tool.
We think the capitalist mode should be made obsolete asap, now.
>>18923183
Don’t call me a retard for for pointing out exactly what you’re saying. People think M-Lism is communism and not just their party name/goal
>>18922208
Not taking the news of this very well are we

>>18923469
While it may be true that Marx does not oppose theory to practice his writings are not a tactical handbook but a description of the capitalist mode of production and it's internal contradictions. You are correct that I should just read him myself.
>it's just how the history happened to unfold and how the productive basis for a communist society developed
Are you really deterministic? I don't think Marx even was, and you did not address Gentile's accusation of Marx being a crypto idealist. His post posthumous publications were even left out of Marx's collected works in "socialist" countries because Marx did not adhere to the strict materialism which Lenin did.
>at Marx's time it wasn't even necessary for the entire world to pass through capitalism
But I thought that it was in his historical materialism? For him was it not necessary for a society to reach it's necessary industrial capacity through capitalism to transition to socialism? Was this not why socialism was supposed to take shape in developed countries like England and France?
>what failure? Lenin did almost all he could. he understood that Russia can't jump straight to socialism without the aid of developed capitalist Western Europe
Well there was never development in industrial capitalism in Russia. Bolshevik movement just replaced bourgeoisie with bureaucracy. This is not socialism.
>capitalism doesn't need any form imposed onto it to "fulfill it's historical process".
It does not need to but it does not hurt to use capitalism for social ends. It is a solution to the commodity fetishism of capitalism, whereas corportism would structure the economy to produce what it deems necessary in a better way a centrally planed state capitalist economy can.
How is state capitalism better than corporatism? USSR was never socialist.

>>18923802
>Nationalism isn’t healthy
disagree. see pic related.
>direct democracy
only if my vote is worth 1 billion because i am smarter and cooler than everyone else

>>18923895
I read a whole book on Garibaldi. The manufacturing of patriotism was a mess and only worked to get the Austrians out and pop the monarchist balloon. One nationalism for another is a worthless coup.
In direct democracy you can have the floor and convince the room of your smart ideas

>>18923963
>In direct democracy you can have the floor and convince the room of your smart ideas

>>18923963
go to a sports game butters. nationalism is a very natural feeling that can and should be used as a means to achieve "solidarity".

>>18923963
>I read a whole book on Garibaldi. The manufacturing of patriotism was a mess and only worked to get the Austrians out and pop the monarchist balloon. One nationalism for another is a worthless coup.
Don't ever try to talk about Italy or Italian nationalism ever again, tranny faggot.

>>18923977
You not smart enough?

>>18924052
We have people rooting for city representative teams here. Doesn’t even matter who’s playing or where they’re from, it’s just the color of their uniforms. Nations-states are things on a lawyer’s paper. They don’t exist. People naturally like each other enough to defend their neighbors, befriend the like minded etc. natural bonds will continue and grow.
Sessions of director democracy also achieves that solidarity

>>18924091
Same-speaking groups banding together is fine, but look at Spain. What right do they have over the non-Spanish speakers? Statism is disgusting lawyer fictions.

>>18924139
>You not smart enough?
I don't want to.
People don't listen to reason. People just go with whatever is popular. I don't care for "democracy" and the only viable form of direct democracy is where everyone is well versed and intelligent on the matters at hand and people can secede whenever they want to.
Nations are real, real because people think they are real. Italians are real because people say they are real. Before Italians there were Tuscans, Sicilians, Florentines and the like. Italy would literally not exist without nationalism.

Think Spanish Civil War, think how good a Garibaldi style Socialist-Nationalist strongman leader would have been for a divided country like Spain. So much bloodshed could have been avoided.

The state may be a legal fiction but it useful for my ends.

>>18923802
Nationalism for me is quite literally "lets put our differences aside and work together". It only started being differentiated from "patriotism" or "solidarity" aftsr the first world war.

Leftism does not work.

It has failed everytime it has been tried. It has been destroyed not only theoretically but also in practicality.

>>18924190
>I don't want to.
Attendance isn’t compulsory, and people can abstain or leave the area at will.
Ideologues don’t listen, so like a lot of things, this is the sort of thing to unlearn/teach the next generation. So why trust small groups that think themselves elite with decision making when they’re just as fallible? I’d sooner trust the honest mistake of a four thousand member meet than a hubristic snake in a suit.
Land is real, people are real, law is fiction. What ought to replace law is custom. Custom can be more real for the masses who believe in them from one generation to the next and change with the new generations to come. It’s much stronger this way.
>>18924299
Some people use the word differently. As I see it this could only happen gradually, so what I am mostly against is centralized authority. Each city, town, neighborhood making decisions for themselves and with their neighbors or “countrymen”. Much as it is now, except the “politicians” and their red tape bullshit

>>18924510
Empty statement. Don’t come back.

>>18924139
>Same-speaking groups
Not related to Italy.
>but look at Spain. What right do they have over the non-Spanish speakers?
It's not about what right Spain has over Basques (an identity much more artificial than the Spanish one), it's about what right the Basques have over Spain. And they have quite the rights, considering "their" historical contributions. Also not related to Italy.

>>18924583
>an identity much more artificial than the Spanish one
That doesn’t bode well for Italy.
Again, I just would like plurality of regions to dissolve the incompetent centralized authorities. It would make the locals more responsible and alleviate corruptions

>>18914836
>capitalism
>marxism
No such things. Grow up, sheeple

>>18915317
this. thread is full of dumb-dumbs

>>18916036
>Capitalism also changes truth
>truth
?????

>>18923803
>his writings are not a tactical handbook but a description of the capitalist mode of production
understanding how capitalism functions is a prerequisite to forming any tactics, since you obviously need to be able to predict the effects of particular action. besides, there's also much writing directly relating to tactics, from the 1848 Revolutions period, from the IWMA period, Engels's correspondence with various SPD people, "The Housing Question", etc.
>Are you really deterministic?
what does that mean? a Turing machine can be deterministic or nondeterministic, but when you ask this of a person the term just becomes a vapid philosophical -ism. I believe social processes can be predicted to an extent, at least until the society takes over the control of itself (and even then surely you could predict some very, very general things). does that mean I'm deterministic?
>and you did not address Gentile's accusation of Marx being a crypto idealist
hurling an empty label at someone is not a real accusation. I might start caring once I hear a sound argument that Marx was incorrect on something concrete that has relevance for communism today. but as long as it remains on the level of pure semantic autism, I don't particularly care if he's called idealist or ultraidealist or whatever.
>because Marx did not adhere to the strict materialism which Lenin did
I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.
>For him was it not necessary for a society to reach it's necessary industrial capacity through capitalism to transition to socialism?
well, yes, but that was deduced at a time when capitalism already existed and was rapidly spreading, and the necessary level of productive forces had already been reached in some places. whereas you have put it as if society was fated to pass through capitalism since the time of Adam and Eve, because that's just what's inherent in "the dialectic".
>Was this not why socialism was supposed to take shape in developed countries like England and France?
socialism was supposed to take shape in countries where capitalism was most developed because developed capitalism is what produces an advanced proletariat and what removes feudal obstacles that prevent the antagonism between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat from fully developing
>Well there was never development in industrial capitalism in Russia.
yes, there was. who do you think the proletarians in St. Petersburg were? the Russian proletariat was able to take the initiative because the monarchy went into a catastrophic crisis at a time when the bourgeoisie wasn't developed enough to see through its own revolution. the bourgeoisie could have only ruled by a compromise with the landed proprietors, but that was impossible due to the sheer strength of the peasantry that wanted the land to itself.

>>18923803
>>18925077
>Bolshevik movement just replaced bourgeoisie with bureaucracy. This is not socialism.
having bureaucracy is not decisive in itself as long as the power remains in the hands of the proletariat. the problem was that the proletariat lost power during the 1920s.
>It does not need to but it does not hurt to use capitalism for social ends
capitalism is not a tool you can use. it's rather a set of social relations in which people themselves are used for the purpose of capital's self-valorization. you can make attempts at taming it in order to delay its collapse, but this is a task for the bourgeoisie, not the proletariat.
>It is a solution to the commodity fetishism of capitalism
commodity fetishism can only disappear together with the commodity form of the product of labour, and that can't disappear with capitalism itself. "The veil is not removed from the countenance of the social life-process, i.e. the process of material production, until it becomes production by freely associated men, and stands under their conscious and planned control."
>whereas corportism would structure the economy to produce what it deems necessary in a better way a centrally planed state capitalist economy can
capitalist society, no matter its form, can't produce what's necessary for the proletariat. that's why communism exists. capitalist society can't but produce more capital, strengthening the parasitic force that subjugates humanity, and with that, it can't but produce more relative poverty and more propertyless proletarians compelled to come together and clash with it.
>How is state capitalism better than corporatism?
better for what? they aren't directly comparable. corporatism is a bourgeois ideology used for temporarily softening class antagonism by positing a false unity of interest between classes. state capitalism is simply state ownership of enterprises.
from the point of view of the dictatorship of the proletariat, corporatism is obviously useless, because the proletariat's task is the reverse: reveal class antagonism fully and intensify it some more. and state capitalism can be useful when, due to special circumstances, the alternative can only be private capitalism, because state capitalism just easier to control by the proletarian state, and it should be obvious why. but such circumstances are no longer possible anyway due to the current level of development of capitalism.
>USSR was never socialist.
economically it wasn't, Lenin was open about it. but politically it was socialist until the proletariat lost power through the degeneration of its party into a bourgeois party.

>>18925084
>commodity fetishism can only disappear together with the commodity form of the product of labour, and that can't disappear with capitalism itself
*and that can't disappear but with capitalism itself

>>18922488
r/stupidpol is decent

Honestly have nothing against marx since I havemt read him but internet marxists are stupid easy to rile up so I just say the retarded takes I see online and go with it

Honestly have nothing against marx since I havent read him but internet marxists are stupid easy to rile up so I just say the retarded takes I see online and go with it

>>18925236
stupidpol is terrible. I would sooner use leftypol than that shitshow

>>18920614
Shit, didn't know Allende was Jewish.

>>18926474
He wasn’t

>>18925077
>>18925084
thank you for your effort posting.

but marx's alleged materialism is essential to his philosophy. when I am asking you if you are deterministic, I am asking you if you think that the overthrow of capitalism and the establishment of world communism is an inevitable historical process. idealism is not an empty label.
>I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.
marx's philosophy takes a lot from hegel. lenin believed consciousness to be a construction of matter, that it is matter which made consciousness possible. I am not sure if this is the case for Marx.

>whereas you have put it as if society was fated to pass through capitalism since the time of Adam and Eve, because that's just what's inherent in "the dialectic".
is it not? I thought this was historical materialism.

Marx’s analysis from my understanding saw capitalism as a historically necessary stage towards socialism. Marx and Engels determined that capitalism was so productive that it created a skilled working class that could replace capitalism. In capitalist countries such as USA today the primary economic output is not skilled labor but the service industry, the selling of commodities, which is essentially just redistribution of money back in the propertied classes pocket. I do not see how we have the basis of socialism today in the west when the productive forces are all outsourced to other countries, i.e china.

>yes, there was. who do you think the proletarians in St. Petersburg were?
marx and engels did not think socialism cant take shape in russia without the help of the proletariat in other countries.

>the problem was that the proletariat lost power during the 1920s.
it never was though. power was always in the hands of the bolsheviks.

>capitalist society, no matter its form, can't produce what's necessary for the proletariat
but capitalism does provide the proactive forces and the specialization of labor. this is necessary for revolution, but the workings of capitalism and the goal of the bourgeoisie would be to stave off revolution as much as possible through bread and circus.

corporatism is not capitalist. is china capitalist today? no! it's not socialist either but it certainly is not capitalist in the meaning commonly attributed to the term.
> corporatism is a bourgeois ideology used for temporarily softening class antagonism by positing a false unity of interest between classes.
no it isn't. corporatism is supposed to keep bourgeois on the boot to fulfil their historical role in developing the productive forces of society. this was fascist italy and it is china today.
>corporatism is obviously useless, because the proletariat's task is the reverse: reveal class antagonism fully and intensify it some more. and state capitalism can be useful when, due to special circumstances
china is best example of the corporate state in action and millions have been lifted from poverty.

>>18923397
>no it isn't, unless you are somehow implying that the future of china
China has made it very clear their goal is to achieve socialism within the next 30 years.

>>18925084
marx never advocated for state capitalism, ever. this just soviet invention. I don't see how having bureaucracy fulfill the role of the bourgeoisie is a preferable alternative to capitalism.
"When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called "the People's Stick". " central planning was pretty terrible.

>>18926538
>China has made it very clear their goal is to achieve socialism within the next 30 years.
government control over the economy is not socialism. that is what soviet union was.

>>18925077
Marx wasn't an economist, so, he had no business being an authority on economics. Also, none of his theories are worth anyone's time. His normative theories, LTV, Class Theory,Exploitation, and Immersation Thesis, Historical Materialism are all solipsism. They're only true insofar they further the ends of Marx's political project. His empirical theories like the Falling Rate of Profit are also empirically false.
As for the history of the communist movement - communists just do historical revisionism to deny the atrocities of communist regimes, and they also even contradict Marx's conception of communism by defending the USSR and China as "socialist." in all, and end all, socialists have no consistent or coherent principles.

>>18926759
>that pic rel
so you reveal don't understand what rate of x means. if marx had no business being an authority on economics, you certainly don't. economics, philosophy or otherwise.

>>18922921
>Yeah people actually should read him.
Whaty would you consider to be essential Marx?

>>18926822
Marxists don't understand corporate profits are measured, yes. And that's why nobody takes you seriously. Mainstream economics has repudiated you retards.

>>18926822
You're so retarded you don't even realize Marx claimed profits would fall as capitalism developed. That was wrong. There's no evidence for TFRP

>>18926874
>moves goalposts
kek
>>18926885
the rate of profit, yes

>>18926538
well if they keep on beating up striking workers they might just do so lel

bump