/lit/ - Literature

>>18820835
HE RAPES HIS SISTER PHOEBE

>>18820840
How did this meme begin

>>18820835
People dislike Catcher in the Rye because they dislike Holden. They think that protagonists should be likable and without significant flaws. This is often because they want to be able to insert themselves into the story via the protagonist.

>>18820835
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UN832YwhNO0

>>18820847
The book is apparently sufficiently creepy to suggest something of the sort.

>>18820869
Its really not

>>18820858
I think for teenagers they see themselves in Holden but also hate him and so react badly

>>18820861
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFh046qcFKU

>>18820877
It really is.

>>18820877
Ao it’s just poorly written. He didn’t realize he was writing Holden as a ten year old and his ten year old sister as a sixteen seventeen year old. He didn’t understand his clumsy writing is full of innuendos. Okay.

>>18820861
What the fug is this

>>18820835
I found the protagonist to be insufferable and trite. I'm sure when the novel came out it was ground breaking and basically was like br2049, drive, joker etc for the angsty boomers but boy has it not aged well.
>tfw to gifted & intelligent to deal with all these phonies around me

>>18820835
It's not awful. It just feels like one of those Hemingway-tier books that anyone can write and that win acclaim by dint of luck and reader contribution more than by authorial merit.

>>18820899
Butterfly you've managed to have the worst takes on pretty much every subject I've seen you shitpost on.

I mean this with no fondness in my heart.

>>18821048
Tripfags, dude.

>>18820835
I don't know. I've read the book 3 times—once when I was in middle school, then in high school, and then at the very end of high school. I thought I liked the book the first two times, but it was only in my 3rd read that I really got it. I think it was because the regrets and hangups over my adolescence that I faced at the time, and how the novel directly confronts that.

To contrast, I didn't like Gatsby, but I could see how someone who yearns for an ex-lover and numbs himself to time's irrevocability by living like hedonist could really get something out of that book.

Likewise, the person who has lived at sea will have an entirely different experience of Moby Dick, and a (reformed) deviant will have a profounder experience of Crime and Punishment.

>>18821048
>There’s nothing to the conspiracy.
>It’s just poorly written
Okay okay. You win agent smith

>>18820835
>people just have a sort of grudge against it
There are a lot of silly people in the world.

>>18820869
>sufficiently creepy
A book doesn't need to be even remotely creepy for certain people online to interpret it in a creepy way.

>>18820899
Salinger does often write precocious young children. That's sort of his thing. But girls tend to mature faster than boys, and Holden is in many ways very young for his age. Their interactions are not so absurd as to invite us to 'read between the lines'.

>He didn’t understand his clumsy writing is full of innuendos. Okay.
You see the innuendos, the same way the rainbow brigade see the sexual tension between Bert & Ernie in Sesame Street. Leave Salinger out of it.

>>18820986
>one of those Hemingway-tier books that anyone can write
If you think you can write anything as good as Catcher — anything a fifth as good — then please, anon, don't hold back out of shyness. Don't deprive the world.

FWIW, I don't think CITR is that good; just decent. Public demand for the Great American Novel seized on it (the same way Gatsby was seized upon). Then there was a natural reaction. But this was a long time ago; surely people are past that now?

>>18820986
The reason 'anyone' can write it now, is because no one could write it before and the innovations seem startalingly obvious.

Unreliable narration coupled with a subtext of trauma and teenage lexicon had simply never been done before. Salinger's attempts at pop-culture critique (hurr dur movies bad) isn't the novel part, it's the lens he uses (young people are being derealized by an obsession with fiction) which takes his commentary to interesting places.

If you read Catcher in The Rye and disliked Holden, unironically, you're no different to him - the book reflects your own maturity.

>young kids and teenagers (like the tard who shot Lennon) idolize Holden as a rebel
>older readers realize that Holden's rebellion is self-centred and his social critique is weak
>experienced readers realize the deeper premise of the book is that Holden hates himself for suspecting the same thing (and is fucked by much larger issues)

You move from a position of envy, disgust to pity as you mature with the book. One of the few novels that really grows with a reader, Salinger's short stories are also massively underdiscussed here.

>>18821129
No, you spastic fucking tranny. It's decently written and there is no incestual rape. Your mind instantly goes to that scenario because you're a degenerate weirdo.

The book captures a moment of adolescence that a lot of 100-115 IQ teens go through better than any other book. Better isn't the right word but rather it's written in a simple and direct manner which appeals to said middlebrow teens.

It appeals to them because high school taught them to think of it as high literature, so they feel more sophisticated for liking it which causes them to think of themselves as a step above the masses. But this also works against the book because a certain number of people will reject the book because it is popular and considered high literature as a way to see themselves as a step above those people who consider themselves a step above the masses.

But it's only a phase and eventually you outgrow it. And when you outgrow it, you look back on this phase in your life and cringe at how you used to think.

And of course there are those who read it at the beginning of their reading journey and like it at that time, but eventually move on from it because they read better books.

>>18821138
Most interesting take desu, but Holden's still a whiny fag.

>>18820835
It is taught incorrectly, it is often tagged as a coming of age book, which will lead readers especially at the high school level to assume they will sympathize will Holden, when at its core the Catcher in the Rye is about a man coping with trauma which is set during Holden’s coming of age, the entire book is Holden acting out because of his trauma and many people don’t catch that, they just think it’s just an angsty teenager whining about the world

>>18820835
Because most people who pride themselves on being well-read see literature written for youths as entirely worthless. This is wrong, of course, but that's why. Catcher is a great book for the age range it's assigned in school, as it forces any kids with inklings of pretention to look in the mirror and realize how they're being perceived and how they affect other people. I read it when I was around 12 or 13 and identified heavily with Holden, until towards the end I realized that maybe I had some self-reflecting to do, if I was being this much of an asshole. I've talked to many kids who read the book and loved it, and it was the same for them.

It's a book that is meant to be read at a certain time in your youth, and outside of that context it doesn't mean much to most people. That's fine though. Not every book needs to be the best thing ever written, but merely a stepping stone to becoming a better person or a more thoughtful reader. Catcher teaches both these things, and is thus a worthy inclusion in the youth canon.

They consider it angsty YA even though it wasn’t written as angsty Y- It’s also taught in schools in America, like how Dazai is taught in schools in Japan. The difference is Japanese schools talk about the unique cultural happenings that were taking place that surrounded Dazai’s books. American schools don’t. They just tell you to read it and like it. They care resentment over that forever.

>>18821144
Holy based

>>18821312
It wasn’t written for youths.

>>18820835
This book is just a very simple normie filter.

>>18821526
And Meditations wasn't written for anybody but Aurelius, it doesn't make it any less valuable as a stoic text.

>>18821135
>the same way the rainbow brigade see the sexual tension between Bert & Ernie
No, that sort of thing is said for fun. Similar to the memes showing them as rather evil characters.
I come to this CitR conspiracy secondhand though. Could just be poorly written

>>18820835
He rapes his sister, Phoebe.

>>18820835
He rapes his sister, Phoebe.

>>18820835
In part because multiple murderers and attempted murders of popular famous people - including the guys who shot John Lennon and Ronald Reagan - were all raving about how much they loved the book and how it inspired them.

>>18822399
It was part of the mk ultra brainwashing program. See >>18820861

>>18821589
What the fuck are you talking about? Stoicism is a philosophy. YA is a commercial genre. You said it was written for kids. It wasn’t.

>>18822446
Not him, but if you're above the IQ of 25 you should be able to understand what he's saying. The intent of the author regarding his work is not necessarily relevant to how it's actually perceived and it's effects could be completely different to what was expected. Educate yourself,
Nigger.

GOTHIC VIOLENCE is a fictional dark comedy by author, Mike Ma. Though is a continuation of the first work, this book stands alone. GOTHIC VIOLENCE follows a gang of jihadist surfers who use insider trading profit to disable the national power grid and capture Florida amid total panic
Get it here: https://www.amazon.com/Gothic-Violence-Mike-Ma/dp/B096Z7J6C1

>>18820847
Because he rapes his sister and dumb readers don’t notice.

His dad rapes his repeatedly on page 1. Read the ellipsis where he gives old Phoebe the time. Oh why did you have to go do that by which she meant.

Holden is a lying deceptive narrator imprisoned in a psych ward. The story has clear cut resistances and breaches in the fascade.

READ CLOSER LENNY.

If you wanna know the truth, most of the people on /lit/ are goddamn phoneys. They really are.

>>18821312
>read at 15
>fuck prostitute not a day older than 18
yeah real kids book

>>18820835
I was made to read it during highschool, but I was actually excited to read it because of how culturally relevant it seemed. I was made to believe this book was very relatable to teenagers, but when I started reading it I just couldn't see it. Every time Holden did anything I was left wondering "why, though?" and I ended up giving it a very superficial read.
Maybe I should pick it up again now that I'm an adult and see if I find anything worthwhile in it.

>>18820835
Yes
I once set a math textbook on fire and I love math I used to teach Math

>>18823384
based

>>18822874
meds

>>18823402
I was watching hardcore porn at 9 years old. A 15 year old can handle this.

>>18821138
>experienced readers realize the deeper premise of the book is that Holden hates himself for suspecting the same thing (and is fucked by much larger issues)


This, most people don’t get this about the book. Holden is not just a whiny fag, he’s a whiny fag because he knows that he’s a whiny fag. It’s really quite tragic and common with teenagers, much more realistic and true than just being edgy and moody.

>>18820899
Post some of the innuendos. Would be good for a laugh either way but you won't because you're nothing but a low-effort shitpost machine.

>>18820835
its a shitty version of American Psycho

>>18823769
Read page one fucksickle

>>18823769
Why can’t you search it? You need me to read it to you as well?
https://postflaviana.org/a-pedophile-fantasy-in-the-rye/

> I got off at our floor–limping like a bastard–and started walking over toward the Dicksteins’ side. Then, when I heard the elevator doors shut, I turned around and went over to our side. I was doing all right. I didn’t even feel drunk anymore. Then I took out my door key and opened our door, quiet as hell. Then, very, very carefully and all, I went inside and closed the door. I really should’ve been a crook.
> It was dark as hell in the foyer, naturally, and naturally I couldn’t turn on any lights. I had to be careful not to bump into anything and make a racket. I certainly knew I was home, though. Our foyer has a funny smell that doesn’t smell like anyplace else. I don’t know what the hell it is. It isn’t cauliflower and it isn’t perfume–I don’t know what the hell it is–but you always know you’re home. I started to take off my coat and hang it up in the foyer closet, but that closet’s full of hangers that rattle like madmen when you open the door, so I left it on. Then I started walking very, very slowly back toward old Phoebe’s room.

>Atwill: Holden finds his sister asleep in his oldest brother’s bed. The fact that she is in an adult’s bed suggests that Phoebe is ready for adult activity.

> Finally, after about an hour, I got to old Phoebe’s room. She wasn’t there, though. I forgot about that. I forgot she always sleeps in D.B.’s room when he’s away in Hollywood or some place. She likes it because it’s the biggest room in the house. Also because it has this big old madman desk in it that D.B. bought off some lady alcoholic in Philadelphia, and this big, gigantic bed that’s about ten miles wide and ten miles long. I don’t know where he bought that bed

>Atwill: Holden describes his sister’s bed and asks the bizarre question: “What’s old Phoebe got to spread out?” Phoebe would presumably answer that she needed the room for all her books and papers. Holden answers his own question with a denial, stating that Phoebe has nothing to spread out. But Salinger knows that his readers’ subconscious will suggest another answer –-

This book book gets banned periodically because it’s full of sexual innuendo towards pedophilia and incest

>>18823528
Nine year olds should not be handling that. You’re only a child once, but even growing up hardcore industry pornography isn’t good *to handle*
I’m not a prude, you know. I don’t even believe in any sanctity of marriage, but childhood is pretty sacred to me.

What’s up

>>18824505
To be clear, I don't think nine year olds should be watching hardcore porn, I'm just saying that if I grew up in the noughts with restricted access to computers and a 64-128kbps connection and still managed to find it, we can assume kids today have similar experiences, and as grown ups it's up to us to equip them with the tools to handle it as they require them. This book would've probably been much more useful to me had I read it at 12-13 than it was at ~16.

btw, I don't feel like porn robbed me of my childhood at all. Obviously my parents caught me (because I was 9 and we shared a computer), and talked to me about it without shaming me or anything of the sort.
In that sense, I think the "too cool to care" attitude present in a lot of media is way more damaging.

>>18824505
I'm starting to think this reading is just critic's projection.

I understand why you're irrationally married to it, though.

>>18825074
Reasonable. I don’t see CitR as useful though.

>>18825088
It is an intentional mind-game. I think Atwill is quite prudish, but he isn’t wrong. This book shouldn’t be taught in schools. Salinger was clearly a pedophile and this may have been a deliberate psyops if not just some personal jollies

>>18825159
>a deliberate psyops
if you're not trolling, please get help.

>>18825167
>Agent Smith out

School teachers are morons so they have no knowledge of Salinger and what he was trying to do with the book. They pull out some shit from their asses about how he's unreliable, or meant to be unsympathetic, or it's existentialist, or whatever. The fact is that Salinger wholly believed he was Holden and detests anyone who makes these convoluted interpretations without taking into account the spiritual dimension of his work.

>>18825412
>the spiritual dimension of his work.

Kek OP did you steal this from r/books? If not, this was on the front page today.

https://www.reddit.com/r/books/comments/p1d7ak/why_do_people_say_its_a_red_flag_if_someones/

>>18821312
Good post, not sure why those retards pounced on you

>>18825526
Well the spiritual dimension is writing pedophile short stories, then writing a long form novel about a sexually molested boy, whose childhood girl crush was raped by her stepdad, but manages adult sexuality, he fails in adult sexuality so he rapes his sister. Its a spiritual thing. It is wish fulfillment. For a lazy pedophile.

That's the spiritual dimension: wanting to know where the ducks go in the winter after you've raped your sister because your dad raped you.

They go down. Under the ice.

>>18824505
>Atwill: Holden finds his sister asleep in his oldest brother’s bed. The fact that she is in an adult’s bed suggests that Phoebe is ready for adult activity.
That's some "Silent Hill 4 was actually about circumcision" level of garbage.
Freud tier self-projection of the analyst, who sees this shit only because he himself experiences bizarre sexual urges.

>>18825793
Oh why did you have to go do that by which she meant

>>18824505
>You’re only a child once, but even growing up hardcore industry pornography isn’t good *to handle.* I’m not a prude, you know. I don’t even believe in any sanctity of marriage, but childhood is pretty sacred to me.
If this isn't bait meant to sound like Holden this is the funniest fucking thing on this board. The fact that you're so against this book that leads to many teens reflecting on how they act while acting like the main character you hate so much is such a bizarre cocktail of irony I'm not sure where to start.

>>18825526
Correct. His other stories are filled with references to Advaita Vedanta, which you would know if you read any of them. His daughter wrote a book about how he lived as a hermit studying this stuff.

>>18825731
You have a mind trapped in the gutter.

>>18821312
This is a middling high school level interpretation of the text at best and the fact that it's the most well thought out perspective in the thread just shows the paucity of real thought on this board.

>>18825997
what kind of boy gets kicked out of 4 or more private schools?

i liked it a lot. i didn't notice any pedo themes , i'll have to reread it

basically

>>18826040
Then please, step down from your ivory tower and contribute an interesting critique faggot.

same reason why people hate shinji from evangelion. most people see themselves in the protagonist and develop disdain for the book because of it

>>18820869
>apparently
Have you read the book?

>>18826564
Interesting: you think people who hate Catcher, hate it because Holden reminds them of a part of themselves they dislike? Possible. (That makes the book better, in my opinion.)

>>18826735
Have you even read the controversy?
>https://postflaviana.org/a-pedophile-fantasy-in-the-rye/

>>18826564
There's nothing wrong with not liking Shinji (or Holden) because when they are presented with choices or opportunities and fail when you would do your best to make a different choice then that's just showing that you don't want to be like that fucking pussy. I'd be more concerned if someone didn't dislike Shinji for being a slef absorbed pussy who can't stand up for himself or get laid even though there are plenty of opportunities
God damn there's nothing compelling about broken or worthless protagonists who you can't want to be more like, its just fucking lit fans who think they're so unique and edgy to write against the grain because they love the smell of their own shit.

>>18827318
>moe shit anime image
>badly spelled out response with zero syntax
>angry tonality that indicates minimal amounts of empathy

You would never get in the robot anon.

>>18827332
Dude I'm in the shitter forgive my spellcheck isn't working, also fuck you. I know nerds who can spell well but are massive pussies and I know dudes who can't but they kick down doors. Don't be a faggot anon just because you relate too hard with retarded protagonists as an excuse for being shit at life
Also don't talk shit about Uiharu she's the bomb

The Catcher in the Rye is my favorite novel. I didn't care for it much as a teenager but when I reread it at 30 it deeply resonated with me.

>>18827318
>God damn there's nothing compelling about broken or worthless protagonists who you can't want to be more like
Jesus christ the fact that you can't even comprehend not self-inserting as the protagonist of a work is concerning.

>>18827242
Jesus christ that was stupid.

>>18826256
Absurdly based. When Togusa thinks he has to become a lone wolf assassin, I could not believe what I was watching. Same when that kid asks Kuze why he shouldn't kill the both of them in season 2. How the fuck did it get made?

>>18820858
I read it at 24 but I can imagine harbouring a lot of discomfort and reaction if I read it in my formative years. He seemed fairly typical for an immature adult, I don't know why a fully grown one would seriously harbour contempt for him now

>>18820883
This. A lot of redditors hate it because Holden IS reddit and they hate seeing themselves for what they truly are.

>>18823402
>Be 15
>Fuck 18yo

>Be 30
>Fuck 18yo

Which one is weirder

>>18828082
Introspection is for faggots and women. I read books where there's detectives hunting criminals or hot chicks who are also smart. Why would you read a book about a loser.