/lit/ - Literature

>>18704761
Beyond good and evil.

I UNDERSTAND IT, BUT IT WILL NEVER NOT BAFFLE ME HOW THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS, ENTIRE FAMILIES, AND WHOLE «NATIONS», THAT HAVE BEEN IN IGNORANCE OF THE TRUE FAITH, AND OF THE TRUE CREED, FOR ALL THE DURATION OF THEIR EXISTENCE, AND WHEN THEY APPROACH CHRISTIANITY IT IS AS IF THEY ARE DISCOVERING SOMETHING NEW & ALIEN.

THE GODLESS ARE STRANGE; FEW THINGS ARE MORE UNCANNY THAN A FAMILY OF ATHEISTS, OR OF AGNOSTICS.

>>18704761
It depends.
Is it historical truth? No, not quite, there's many conflicting accounts even within the NT.
Is it metaphysical truth? Again, it depends. Christians will tell you "of course it is, it's the word of God!" But there are other faiths that also profess to lead to truth. I don't see why Christianity (or any religion for that matter) has the sole right to claim that truth for itself.
But that doesn't mean there's no truth to be found in Christianity / the Bible. It's based on many different older traditions, there's beautiful parables, I think Jesus was a man (or several people, or none) who understood Truth in a similar way to the Buddha, but Christians would disagree. Is it the only truth though? I don't think so.
I think Christianity is the right path for some people and not for others. For me personally it's too "jewish", too much focused on victimization and sin and forgiveness, but other people find solace in it just because of it. I prefer something more life-affirming.

>>18704761
Define truth and BS

>>18704761
The case against the case for Christ by Robert M. Price is the definitive book and isn't too long. Debunks decades of popular Christian apologetics. If there is one book to read it is that.

If you are interested in more then most of Bart Ehrman's popular books (popular in both senses in that they sold a lot of copies and they are written for a popular audience) like Forged, Jesus Interrupted, Misquoting Jesus (really good), Lost Christianities, Jesus before the Gospels and How Jesus became God. And he recently wrote two other books Heaven and Hell and The Triumph of Christianity.

Now this is assuming you made this thread in good faith and actually want an answer and aren't looking to "SAVE THE WEST" or LARP or something gay like that. Bart Ehrman summarizes centuries of critical scholarship. In my opinion stay away from philosophy since it is a waste of time and can prove anything, and apologetic books for and against. Stick to the facts.

>>18704961
>>18704804
Retard alert. You know what he means. Asking what is truth does not make you come off as more sophisticated. He is asking is Christianity true, that is, are the claims of orthodox Christianity true? Is there a triune god, was there a historical person called Jesus who was god incarnate, etc. Lose weight.

>>18704978
Did you even read my post retard? >>18704804
I answered your questions already

>>18704984
Nope you gave retarded answer because you are worthless retard.

>>18704978
Then the answer is obvious if you are thinking in purely objective terms. There wouldn't even be a need to answer the question if OP did even a cursory analysis of the stories from a purely objective standpoint. There's obviously either a deeper question being asked here or OP is just retarded. I gave him the benefit of the doubt.

>>18704998
That you didn't understand it doesn't mean it's retarded, retard

>>18704761
>What one book would you recommend that really cuts to the truth of the matter of whether Christianity is bullshit?
The Bible
Millennia of attempts at whitewashing and rationalizing only serves to support how ludicrous it actually is if you read it without already having been indoctrinated

>>18705004
There you again with deeper. No there isn't. He asked is it true or not. Simple.

> There wouldn't even be a need to answer the question if OP did even a cursory analysis of the stories from a purely objective standpoint.
This is wrong. There are tons of conservative Christians who defend the traditional accounts of the Bible and orthodox Christianity. You are just ignorant because you spend your time looking for "deeper" meaning like an idiot when there isn't any.

>>18705007
I understood you but what you said was irrelevant to OP's question and shallow, and worst of all pretentious.

>>18705033
There are also tons of Conservative Christians who still think Trump is their President

>>18705023
This. You don't even have to read the whole thing but it is worth it for its literary and cultural value. You only have to read the Gospels carefully and compare them. Make notes of each Gospel as you read it, and read it slowly, carefully and analytically. So many contradictions will show up.

>>18705041
You are an idiot. Only further cementing my point how dumb you are. Anyway, what's your point? In what sense did you think I am meant conservative? Politically? I meant theologically, i.e. people who hold to inerrancy, or have a high view of the inspiration of the Bible. This is what happens when you are retard and post in threads and looking for the "deeper" meaning instead of being humble and admitting you don't know what you are talking about.

>>18704793
Cum Genius

>>18705033
How is it irrelevant, shallow and pretentious? Sounds like projection to me

>>18704793
Cum Genius

>>18705033
Truth has more the one definition so the distinction is actually necessary. And there obviously is a deeper meaning behind the Christian corpus if you've actually read it. You're really trying to deny that there is a deeper meaning behind a 2000 year old tradition that has inspired countless intellectuals and masterpieces. If you can't see that by just the impact that the doctrine itself has had on western civilization and thought then you are blind.

Bruh, you’re going to need to read a lot more than one book.

>>18705053
I'm not the other anon, I was just poking fun at you
Curb your autism

>>18704761
There's no one book. You can spin it any way you want. Everyone has their own perceptions shaping their attitude towards Christianity, it's a very controversial topic that is easy to spin both for and against. See >>18704969. That'll be an example of that. If you want apologetics vs deboonkers, read beliefmap, it's relatively objective and gives you arguments for and against, plus it's free and concise.

Re >>18705023 and >>18705049, this is baby tier talk. Bible is ancient, translated from an ancient language, multiple accounts, difficult topic, etc. Very easy to cherrypick contradictions in it if you so desire. Some use these contradictions to claim the Bible is true. Like that ex detective or whatever who went from atheist to Christian, and says that the differences in Gospels are exactly what he expects from multiple witness accounts. But it's easy to cherrypick contradictions even in US constitution or scientific papers if you want. And it's even easier if you pick a 2000 year old document full of colloquialisms and metaphors appropriate for that time.

YOU have to decide. No authority can help you. You have to read the NT yourself, see if it clicks, if it does, make the first step and honestly belieb. Then see if it works for you. Yeah it sounds weird/stupid/corny, but people go to gyms and train with no real explanation of how it works, and yet some systems work. It's kinda like that with religions. They're too big/difficult to unpack rationally, at least atm. So you gotta take the leap of faith.

>>18704804
It's about as life affirming as it gets. Especially compared to Buddhism. "World is great but we have free will and so we fuck it up for ourselves but it will be unfuckedup later and we'll enjoy it forever" vs "Wow I hope I get to not exist". Of course I suspect that "muh nonexistance" is actually West misunderstanding Buddhism and in reality it's something different, like a mindset or whatever.

>>18705120
Just fyi I am not a Buddhist. My point of comparison was about the historical figures of Jesus and Buddha who revolted against the corrupt religious institutions of the time in search for truth (whether they were correct or not, they were very influential and their message resonated).
>It's about as life affirming as it gets.
I guess this goes into your point of the Bible being difficult and interpretable in many contradicting ways. In the way it is practised in my country, and the way I see it practised globally, it is not life affirming at all, especially when compared to what came before. One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in in the west is because of the failure of Christianity, with its increasing focus on slavishness through its evolution, focus on the next life over this. I agree that in historical (catholic / orthodox) there are life affirming tendencies to be found, but those are long gone. It has become corrupt.

>>18705145
I am not really competent to talk about Buddhism in any case.
The NT isn't really difficult if you read it in good faith. It literally has passages like "So the dude asked Jesus what is the one main thing you gotta do to be good" and Jesus gives him a straight, easy to understand answer. The problems start to happen when you either read it in bad faith, or when you start trying to figure out the OT which is even older and was written in a very very different context.

>One of the reasons we are in the mess we are in in the west
I don't think we are in any mess. It just seems that way to us because we lack honest historical context and a good appraisal of how the world lived before. Meanwhile the media mostly bombards us with negativity and the worst examples of any movement/event it can find.
>failure of Christianity, with its increasing focus on slavishness through its evolution,
This is a common point. We often attribute our social ills to Christianity because it was a dominant social force for 2000 years here. So our view is skewed here. The reality is, slavish ideologies (and social ills in general) are separate from Christianity. While some used Christianity to validate their values, many others, like Roman Imperial cult, didn't. USSR is a good example of a country with a slavish ideology completely separate from Christianity because it ended up having so many social ills attributed to religion while being atheist. It essentially ended up with an atheist religion. I'm not talking about Communism as a concept - merely about this one specific situation.
>focus on the next life over this.
People ignore that Christianity demands proactively helping others. There are sins of commission and sins of omission. There's an imperative to enjoy this life and appreciate this world, created by God. It's not the focus but it's there. Getting into Heaven is also not the focus. It's more of a consequence. Unfortunately most self-proclaimed Christians remain pagan in their mindset, with Christ just replacing Zeus as a pagan deity.
>It has become corrupt.
Any human structure is corrupt. There are no perfect systems, there were no perfect systems, there will be no perfect systems. It falls to individual humans to help the world improve via activism and shit. These things that you write - in my opinion, they are a result of leaning on interpretations instead of going and seeing for yourself. We're not fucked, the church is still good and useful - at least Catholic one - it serves its function. The majority of people are still irrational pagans. People are still fucking each other over. It's how it's always been. At least now human life is worth something, courtesy of Christian influence on our culture.

>>18704793
Sir, this is a Wendy's.

>>18705243
>The NT isn't really difficult if you read it in good faith.
Yesterday someone told me you can't just take the NT at face value and have to decipher the deeper meanings behind it in order to truly understand it. Which is it?
>The problems start to happen when you either read it in bad faith, or when you start trying to figure out the OT which is even older and was written in a very very different context.
Who decides what bad faith is? Doesn't the OT prefigure the NT? Since it's the same god I would take it you need to understand the OT in order to understand the NT. I mean there is a reason the Bible is composed of both and the OT is first. Otherwise you could strip out the first half and just deal with the life of Jesus but I'd imagine that's not the right way to fo about it.
>I don't think we are in any mess.
We'll have to disagree then. I am no Christian but I can see that it is preferable over atheism and materialism, which is rampant now. The time of christianity is over and the only contenders to replace it are islam, which is similar but even worse in the slavish aspects, and wokeism, which is similar but inverted and materialistic.
>USSR is a good example of a country with a slavish ideology completely separate from Christianity
But it's not. It's a direct evolution out of Christianity. Communism's eschatology is extremely similar to (and founded upon) that of christianity. It is a religion without god. I see your last point but the influence of christianity on it cannot be disregarded, the same goes for wokeism which I explained above.
>People ignore that Christianity demands proactively helping others.
>Getting into Heaven is also not the focus. It's more of a consequence.
That may be so but that's not the way in which it is practised by the overwhelming majority of christians. I judge it by its fruits. Since it is a communal religion, one cannot fuck off into the desert and practise christianity "the way it was meant to be".
>Unfortunately most self-proclaimed Christians remain pagan in their mindset, with Christ just replacing Zeus as a pagan deity.
You touch upon what I just but I disagree with your interpretation. This is what happened with early christianity, when there still were life-affirming elements to be found it, for that reason specifically. Now, especially with protestantism but even with modern catholicism, it is a religion of empty words and dogma. Zeus is long gone. The pagan mindset is long gone. And I mean actual pagan as in pre-christian, not as many christians use it as "non-christian". In that line of thought, all abrahamic faiths are the same (which of course they aren't). WHat you refer to as pagan would be satanic.
>Any human structure is corrupt.
I disagree. But that's because I'm not christian. And this is the life-denying aspect of your religion I was aiming at in my earlier post. This way of being in the world cannot bring growth and truth, only decay, which is precisely what happened.

>>18704761
Bolshevism from Moses to Lenin by Dietrich Ekhart

>>18704804
>Is it historical truth? No

>>18704804
>I think Jesus was a man (or several people, or none)
>understood Truth in a similar way to the Buddha

>>18705243
>It falls to individual humans to help the world improve via activism and shit.

>>18705278
>I disagree.
so which non-corrupt purely human structure can you show us?

>>18705278
It has both. The things that are stated plainly are imo the most important. I'm not aware that there's a "correct" order of priorities of what's important though.

>Who decides what bad faith is?
If your reason for reading it is only to get more fuel for shitting on it then it's bad faith. If your reason is to deepen your understanding of the topic it's good faith. Same as with everything.

> Since it's the same god I would take it you need to understand the OT in order to understand the NT.
For scholarly purposes, yes. Not required for practical application; other people tried to figure it out before you and published their results in easier to digest way. Catechism exists.

>We'll have to disagree then.
What indicates that we are in a mess? Is it a bigger mess compared to what we experienced? Is it a global mess, or just Western?

>I see your last point but the influence of christianity on it cannot be disregarded, the same goes for wokeism which I explained above.
Yeah. Christianity influenced a lot of our culture. I don't see how its fruits are bad. Can you elaborate how they are?

>That may be so but that's not the way in which it is practised by the overwhelming majority of christians.
Dunno, man.

> it is a religion of empty words and dogma
It's not. I use Catechism in my daily decision making. I think it works well.

>The pagan mindset is long gone.
How do you define the pagan mindset?

>I disagree. But that's because I'm not christian.
Can you elaborate?
>And this is the life-denying aspect of your religion I was aiming at in my earlier post.
It's life-affirming. We accept we are imperfect, we accept we fuck up, and we truck on to proactively bring God's will to the world. Instead of rejecting THIS world because it's imperfect, you accept it with all its flaws, and try to make it better, and you're not afraid to lose your comforts or life in the process, because a better world awaits you anyway.
>This way of being in the world cannot bring growth and truth, only decay, which is precisely what happened.
Thinking that humans cannot build an utopia is realistic. Even if there is no ill intent, humans constantly misunderstand each other and fuck up. I like discussing this with you, but how many times do you think we misunderstood each other just in those few posts? Simply because we focused on different things. Woulda been cool to talk more and understand each others positions better but oh well. What are your values?
I ain't sure I am gonna answer soon imma off to lift

>>18705375
If you don't participate in social/political life you are a slave.

>>18704761
here you go anon I tell you this one simple trick

I know it sounds incredible but what if you only believed things you actually witnessed or experienced

sandnigger schizos talk about angels and burning bushes, have you seen them?
sandnigger schizos talk about some guys jeebus doing miracles, have you seen him?
sandnigger schizos talk about hell/paradise, have you experienced it?

if you check out No on all of them, it might be not in your best interest to just believe and put your faith in palestinian fairytales!

>>18704761
My take is that it really doesn't matter one way or another. Christianity and religion as a whole gives people something to believe in, meaning, a place of belonging. Which makes it one of the most powerful forces on earth. Too many people focus on the scientific angle of "is it real?", people are too obsessed with the material world. I don't need to quantify the spiritual world to know it exists. Because when I read of Christ, or whatever figure and am filled with a sense of purpose, bliss, and security it makes me far stronger than any pussy who is obsessed with what he deems is "real". He will sit in his own misery, and depression, while I achieve things, and power through hard times. It can however be a dangerous force as we have seen through history. Balance with everything.

>>18705469
>I don't need to quantify the spiritual world to know it exists
well you don't need because you just want to endlessly cope

>Because when I read of Christ, or whatever figure and am filled with a sense of purpose, bliss, and security
you want to auto-hypnotize yourself away from the yucky world

>He will sit in his own misery, and depression,
people not sharing your delusional faith are more miserable?

>>18705483
You can label me any way you want, it really does not matter. Even if someone is "hypnotized" to be stronger than you, the fact remains that they are still stronger than you :). It's sad how little people like you understand of the human spirit. You choose to discard one of your greatest strengths because you believe you're too good.

>words words words.... do you really expect me to read all that?
God don't real. End of thread. Simple as.

>>18705504
>You choose to discard one of your greatest strengths because you believe you're too good.
The opposite. They believe they are worthless and wish to drag everyone else down to their level.

>>18705406
Ahahahahah is this the new cope? Dimiurge got you by the balls bitch and no amount of fillable signature forms can help you.

>>18705504
>It's sad how little people like you understand of the human spirit
and what do you even understand?
no really, what have you got to show? that you need a skydaddy to make you cope with LE BAD human society?

>>18705508
based

>>18705510
>why hello there my fellow christcuck tsk tsk these heathens will never get it ever are they?

>>18705518
>and what do you even understand?
I understand myself and don't ignore what's inside. It comes natural. We fashion our own reality and every day you willingly choose to live in darkness.

>>18705522
trifle garbage from an overly emotional neurotic taking himself too seriously
I have finished psychologizing you, bye bye

Can anyone debunk this?

>>18705530
u mad?

>>18705432
But it's in my best interest to state that I believe if I, the slave can take subslaves to command with fairy tales. Stated preference and revealed preferences are strategic.

>>18705559
Lenin was a materialist. A true God don't realer.

>>18705539
I can but only on a dimension or more higher. On this one the only thing I can tell you is to drink the kool aid in small sips.

>>18704761
Do you believe that 2000 years ago a man named Jesus performed miraculous healings and exorcisms and then was nailed to a cross, killed, and then was literally resurrected bodily three days later? And I mean literally, like as a historical event, as if you could have captured the event with a video camera if you had one there at the alleged time and place? If you don't 100% believe that is literal historical truth than Christianity has no point. Everything else, the culture, the moral teachings, the mythology, everything is just hacked together from different cultures Hebrews and Jews had encountered throughout their dubious history. Unless you already believe the resurrection is an absolute historical reality just don't even bother. I'm not even touching on the nonsense about "sin" and needing blood human sacrifice to save yourself from it. You can Jerry rig whatever meaning you want out of the resurrection myth.

>>18705685
just a metaphor bruh like cmon you are supposed to look for the hidden meanings

>>18705539
>World is big. That means I should transition!
Whatever floats your boat, buddy.

>>18705685
Jesus was a historical figure. His disciples initially abandoned him but after he was crucified (and we know he was) something happened that made the disciples gleefully die for no worldly gain but just to spread His word and make Christianity the dominant religion in the world and the major force that shaped our culture. But you're right, all historians lie about Jesus and disciples marched to their deaths just to confuse us, even though all evidence points to the contrary.

>>18704761
This is the end game but it takes about 3 years of background research to build up to and understand. Start with the New Testament and Plato. After Plato a summary of Aristotle, then Plotonius. Then maybe an intro text of semiotics. You'll then be ready for the OT and Eckhart. After that you can do a first reading of Boehme's The Signature of All Things, but you'll need to study alchemy to get all of it.

Kant must be understood as well before approaching Hegel, as well as Fichte and Boehme, along with Heraclitus and Plato.

>>18705820
yes if someone dies for their belief than they were right. but, uh, don't apply that reasoning to anything else hehehe....

> I’m wondering about the point of life
> I decided to do research
> I only want to read one book though
Doesn’t work that way. Anyway, start with Bahnsen.

>>18705808
Le shit? Are you projecting your own tranniness onto the post?

>>18704761
Christianity has been and is constantly changed, it's too corrupted, read he Quran instead, completely, at least once

>>18704776
Bait

>>18704793
>Atheist and agnostic families
As a Christian living in a very Christian country, yes, such things are weird af and I honestly don’t understand why people in the west can like content like that.

>>18704761
The History of the Church, Eusebius
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2501.htm

>>18705820
Yeah, this is a dumb argument.

Plenty of people today are willing to put their life on the line simply for their political beliefs but that doesn't make their ideology any more or less "true"

>>18704761
The Ladder of Divine Ascent