/lit/ - Literature

>>18649585
He presupposes that you are a human being, i.e. a free man and not a slave.

>>18649631
>you are not a slave to unjust temptations but are a slave to a human being possessed by unjust temptations
so profound

>>18649585
>the rich, who undeniably exploit the poor
Opinion discarded as Marxist propaganda. The rich are rich because they have added value to the world---that is the whole point of wealth. Marxist cumbrains think of money as being like a commodity that we dig out of the earth, and they think of rich people as hoarding this commodity. That couldn't be further from the truth. Money is an abstraction of the value added to society. Rich people deserve the luxuries of wealth as a reward for the value they've added. Poor people have added no value and they're lucky for the bread and circuses they get

>>18649661
Very compelling. Face the wall please.

>>18649661
I'm not even a Marxist, but this is pure drivel.

>>18649656
The people Socrates was talking to were all slave owners and relatively rich. What Socrates taught applies to this breed of people. A free, wealthy man who can develop his powers in any direction.

>>18649661
I agree, Belle Delphine has added so much value to our world

>>18649585
Actually his opinion on that changes drastically depending on the dialogue. Read Hippias Minor.

>>18649585
define happiness

>>18649661
I am in complete agreement it's an honour to make shekels for Mr. Steinberg

>>18649661
Oy vey, based take, fellow bagel muncher

>>18649799
Value is subjective nigger if people are willing to give her money for what she does than what she does has value to those people.
By this logic her value is subjective to those willing to give it to her.
Dont hate the game and the people playing it, get better at playing the game you frustrated mong if you are good enough at it you might change peoples mind about what deserves value.
At this point in time you have less value than a slut with small boobs how does that make you feel you degenerate?

>>18650249
>dude...like dont even try to #slutshame people and try to state that society is flawed for letting immoral degenerates and whores gain wealth and influence just like....be immoral and a decadent subhuman like everyone else and you can maybe even make heckin money too...bro that would be cool wouldnt it bro? haha yeah...society shouldnt change, it's already perfect bro huhuhuhuuhuh

>>18650274
You know theres men who make money on onlyfans too? Stop being an incel

>>18650274
Nigger what im saying is that market value is subjective.
I do believe in an objective hierarchy of values based purely on my view of the world anyone that has a different hierarchy of values is a retard.
Fuck moral pluralism and relativism.

>>18650249
Are you saying someone's value is determined by how much they make? By the market?
Than I'm sorry to beak it to you, but 50 shades of grey is infinetly superior anything written by Fitzgerald or Gogol.

>>18649661
>The rich are rich because they have added value to the world
How can you be a "traditionalist" and seriously say garbage like this? The rich created this world that you hate.

>>18650312
>Than I'm sorry to beak it to you, but 50 shades of grey is infinetly superior anything written by Fitzgerald or Gogol.
Why would you be sorry for stating a simple fact? No matter how many childish arguments you invoke you cannot argue with the bottom line of value. If people value shades more than your literally who philosophers than shades has more value and is inherently superior. You can cry about it, but that won't change anything.

>>18650249
This stupid dumb ass fuck is saying Rich=Virtue
Lol
>something has value because the market says so
Dumb motherfucker

There are?
I wonder how they measure happiness
Also
>Poor people are moral
>Muh exploitation
What studies actually show is that the number 1 contributing factor to happiness regardless of income is participation in a spiritual community

>>18650385
Nigger next time instead of writing mongoloid hieroglyphs just greentext what i said with a basedjack jpeg at least i wouldnt need to read your attempt at countering my opinion with insults

>>18650385
>>18650413
AND value and virtue are two different things.
>This stupid dumb ass fuck is saying Rich=Virtue
Faggot i never said that.
Read the shit i wrote again without tears in your eyes and maybe you will see what my point was you emotional screecher.

>>18650391
Yeah, that's not true. Thanks for playing, though.

>>18650339
???? I never said I hate this world? This world is awesome. I am appropriately compensated for the value I provide and have no complaints on that front. If you're bitter on that front, maybe you should get a job

>>18650439
You said rich are rich cause they added value to the world. What value you dumb bitch? Corporatocracy?
Are you still in the fucking XIX century to affirm that aristocracies are still giving value to Kalos Kagathos?
Bitch, this is XXI century, and you are a Last man of course

>>18649694
>I'm so virtuous and moral and ethical
>That is why I favor summary executions without trial for my political opponents

>>18649697
You don't have to be a card-carrying Marxist to be a victim of Marxist brainwashing

>>18649799
I dislike Belle's line of work as much as you do but there's no denying she has given millions of people pleasure

>>18649975
>>18650027
Let's see what the Jews' absolute arch nemesis has to say on the matter...
'When the disciples saw this, they were indignant and asked, “Why this waste? 9This perfume could have been sold at a high price, and the money given to the poor.” Aware of this, Jesus asked, “Why are you bothering this woman? She has done a beautiful deed to Me. The poor you will always have with you, but you will not always have Me."'

>>18650481
If you want to see what the world would be like without the value added by the rich, look at the Kalahari bush people. Rich people produced the computer or phone you're using to post here, they provided the servers and the internet 4chan is hosted on, they provided the running water and electricity in your house as well as the house itself or at least the raw materials for it.

>>18650481
yes i said they have subjective value because of the people that give them that value.
I never said that they were virtuous or anything close to it i even called the egirl a slut.
>What value you dumb bitch?
The value that they added is depedent on what the individual thinks because value is in my opinion SUBJECTIVE.
>Are you still in the fucking XIX century to affirm that aristocracies are still giving value to Kalos Kagathos?
Bitch, this is XXI century, and you are a Last man of course
Wtf are you even talking about you schizo asylum patient? How does that counter my point?? If calling my "Last man" is a counter to my argument than calling you a faggot should be enough to counter yours for at least that would be true.

>>18650498
Whoa Whoa, buddy - step back with the literalism. At best, they facilitated services - employees (who were most definitely not "rich" by their employers standard) produced or provided. There's a substantial difference. Read a book or three on the industrial revolution (ignore Marx and the socialists, if you like).

>>18650516
Right, as if in a world without evil rich people, the anarchic masses would just spontaneously get together and build chip factories and semiconductor factories just out of sheer community good will. These factories would be fully functional and efficient despite the fact they were built by volunteers. Incidentally, this explains why hippy communes in the 1960s eventually developed into advanced enclaves and ultimately launched successful space colonization missions

>>18650516
>There's a substantial difference
There is not
Rich liberal elites tend to bring about prosperity

>>18650498
I don't support a false dichotomy of choose either "everyone must have the same amount of wealth and resources" or "the elite class using under handed tactics and coercion to steal from every one else (what we have now.)"
>Rich people produced the computer or phone you're using to post here
They created computers for their own gain, so that they're better able to spy on people and propagandize them for a couple of very evil examples.
>they provided the running water
They monopolized water and poison it as they sell it to people, just like they poison the food, medicine and the environment.
>>18650523
more false dichotomies. capitalism and socialism are both propaganda terms to misdirect the plebes on how society really works.

>>18650527
Rich liberal elite tend to bring out profit, prosperity is purely a second-tought.
Believing that liberal elites care about prosperity is like saying that cows care about fertilizing the ground when they take a shit.

>>18650542
So when are you planning to move into the woods and build your log cabin?

>>18650523
That wasn't my point. Like, at all. You're confusing funding with production in some weird Naval Ravikant-esque ideological mishmash. I'm not a communard.
>>18650527
For themselves? Absolutely. As the person above points out, it's a secondary effect.

>>18650550
What exactly do you think profit *is*? See >>18649661: you are acting as if money is a limited physical resource that we dig up from mines or something, and those greedy capitalists are keeping it all for themselves while twirling their mustachios. Profit is when you spend $1 to provide someone a service and that service makes them so happy that they give you $2 for it

>>18650560
You started spouting the Marxist cliches about how it's really the workers who provide all the value while the greedy fatcat capitalist just leeches off of them. You're the one who implied that those workers would have spontaneously gotten together and decided to do that work if said capitalist hadn't organized them together to do it.

Here's the BEST case scenario in your world. A few highly motivated people among the hippies DO decide to organize and get these factories started. Woohoo, triumph of the people! Everyone is so grateful to these ambitious ubermen, everywhere they go people bend over backwards to show their appreciation. Doing this based on personal recognizance is not scalable, so the process is quickly abstracted, and a system quickly evolves where tokens are exchanged so people can keep track of who has done great things and who deserves rewards for doing so. Bang, we're right back at capitalism (hopefully with only a minimal length transition period of people roaming around killing and eating each other)

>>18650564
What im saying is the profit is at times indepedent of prosperity.
Where does porn for exemple bring prosperity of any kind? But rich liberal elites still make profit from it indepedent of how it affects the masses.
Believing that all the rich elites care about prosperity is ignorant at best and deceiving at worst.

>>18650564
>>18650589
So what do you gentlemen think of the great aristocratic class manufacturing a fake pandemic crisis along with a lockdown, upending millions financially, to then go on and manufacture a poisonous "cure" that now everyone has to pay for even though a significant amount of the population doesn't even want it?

>>18650592
Porn, like alcohol or skydiving, is a vice. It is one of the vices which we as a society have collectively decided should be legal (you and I disagree about that decision but we've been outvoted unfortunately). Given all that, it does unequivocally bring prosperity in that it gives people pleasure and excitement. Whether in a good way, that's another matter: write to your legislator.

>Believing that all the rich elites care about prosperity
Of course they don't, no-one really does except maybe a few saints in the church. Everyone's in it for themselves. Capitalism recognizes this and harnesses it, like a sail harnesses wind. The "sail" is the incentive structures of capitalism which ensure that the most efficient way to get ahead yourself is to provide prosperity, whether that's what you care about or not.

>>18650597
From where I'm looking, there's a pretty big fucking overlap between the fake pandemic profiteers and the Left and socialists etc. In case you've been living under a rock, most opposition to that dystopian shit has been coming from the rightwing camp

>>18650624
Where did I say right or left? I'm talking about the elite class. Are you saying the right is the elite but somehow the "left" has more power than them? The "left" your referring to IS the rich and powerful class in control. They've been controlling both side for a long time now. I hope you don't think I align myself with the "left" just because I'm criticizing the aristocratic class.

>>18649585
>there are many studies showing that poor people are measurably unhappier than the rich

Socrates doesn't use happiness or wealth to weigh "better" or "worse" in this context. In his view, the better-worse spectrum slides as a measure of virtue, not material gain. Thus, it is possible to be poor & unhappy yet still be "better" than a rich & happy one who lacks virtue. This is based on the assumption that both the Humanists and (most) religious people share, which is that the best human possibility is living in accordance with virtues & ethics.

Both of the guys arguing here are right. Capitalists do add value but sometimes they also cause societal, moral and and economic damage. You can go back and forth on this all night and give plenty of examples of both sides but in the end you're both correct.
Capitalism works, but it works only when the natural aristocracy that arises from the such a system has a vested interest and genuine love for the underclass. You can not have a hostile elite class working against the people

>>18650647
You're overly conspiratorial, the wuflu hysteria isn't the product of a cabal of elites, it's more of an emergent phenomenon caused collectively by billions of individuals---most of them leftists who are just doing what it takes to get upvotes and likes on social media.

You don't think Biden would love to end all that shit today? You don't think he'd love to be hailed as the hero who saved the world from COVID? He can't because it's not in his hands, it's not in anyone's hands, ironically the hysteria itself really is like a (mental) virus that spreads without our control to stop it anymore. It's all about game theory. If both prisoners refuse to talk (=admit COVID is nothing) then they both go free, but if only one prisoner refuses to talk, the other prisoner gets crucified. No-one trusts each other so all the prisoners end up talking (=continuing the charade and it'll probably still be going on decades from now)

>>18650498
I'm not denying your point
Except the kernel of what you're talking about is not about poorness or richness but war and dominance.
What I was talking about is that you cannot speak for all rich people in regard of values, since, like in ancient Rome, the power of Aristocratic values is diminished by the "representation" of the common pleb. Nowadays is worst. Kalos Kagathos does not exist anymore if its not via meditation/action

You need to read Aristotle, thats it. Aristotle and Marcus Aurelius.
Forget about this fag called Plato, a scandalous dude, deserved his fate.

>>18650702
Have fun reading about syllogisms until your eyes bleed out

>>18650624
>Given all that, it does unequivocally bring prosperity in that it gives people pleasure and excitement
Pleasure and excitement do not correlate to prosperity as much as they do with hedonistic short-term thinking that will lead to decadence and the exact opposite of prosperity.
>(you and I disagree about that decision but we've been outvoted unfortunately)
Im happy we can agree on this point but our ways to go about it differ while you believe in accepting vices you dont agree with as part of the system because they have been voted by the masses as legal.
I too believe that capitalism leads to prosperity but vices like those you mentioned are harmful to the masses which are being extorted and being kept ignorent by the rich elites that profit from selling those same vices.
Can you imagine how much faster and healthier would your prosperity be if we could educate the masses on the evils of the vices they are being sold? That education is being conscientiously slowed and ignored because of the same elites you and your view of the system are defending.

>>18650249
>The rich are rich because they have added value to the world
>Value is subjective
>if people are willing to give her money for what she does than what she does has value to those people

So, the rich are rich because the plebs deemed what they did valuable? Why do I care about what plebs think?

>>18650782
Because almost all of us are plebs. You and I are certainly not exceptions. It would be glorious to live in the world where all the plebs were summarily exterminated, if you were one of the elite. But you are not, so you will not live there, you'll be exterminated along with me and everyone else on 4chan.

>>18650782
If you are selling to them and want to make a profit you should care what they think.
If you arent selling anything and are yourself evaluating a product or belle's tits you shouldnt give a fuck what anyone else but yourself thinks because value is subjective.

>>18650668
Except the millions pharma companies will be making frrom the vaccine (which is dangerous and rushed), and all the new authoritarian systems they will be implementing while people are still fearful. Tyranny creeps up on you, it doesnt impose itself suddenly on a tuesday.

>>18650801
Why should i give a fuck about what someone thinks of a product if im gonna be the one buying it? If im the one buying it i should be the one that thinks if the price or value given to that product is fair or not, if i dont think its fair i dont buy it.
That is why the free-market needs value subjectivity to work. Just because im a "pleb" dosent mean i need to give a fuck about other "plebs".

>>18650805
I don't want to sell anything to anyone, but I find my opinion to be more worthwhile than an opinion of an average e-thot's simp. I consider her to be unworthy of the money she's hoarding and choose to ignore what her simps think to be valuable. I would welcome particular measures to strip her of the wealth she possess and prevent her from getting rich this way again. Why am I not entitled to this view? Why should I respect wishes of the simps?

>>18650818
I'll concede that in this case it's an example of capitalism falling on its face. The pharmas and big brothers are not providing genuine value, but are getting paid to provide fake value (people mistakenly value them in the thought that it'll save them from the shanghai shivers).

The moral is that we should do as Socrates advocates in The Republic and replace democracy's rule-of-mob by a philosopher king. I nominate Socrates himself, if we can just figure out a way to bring him back to life

>>18650861
I also think that simp are fucking retarded and the value given to ethots is disgusting but that doesnt mean market value should be regulated and measures should be put in place against these ethots because the retarded simps would find a way to simp over something else.
What i think should be done is educate these simps about why they are retarded and why simping is wrong and egirls dont deserve the value that they have.
This way we can use the subjectivity of the market in a healthy way because educated healthy men will not give value to esluts so their value wil lower alot.
Education is the key, regulation is nothing more than putting a bandaid on a bullet wound.

>>18650879
Wouldnt Belle Delphine be providing false value too then >:(
All she does is hurt her simps in the end

>>18650912
I see anon, the Capitalism will work, but no sooner than we will be able to breed a Perfect Consumer, completely compatible with our envisioned Capitalist Utopia.

>>18650668
Biden's a puppet just like the other presidents. How is it possible that so many people up and decide to virtue signal about this one thing so strongly and the government, the media outlets AND the corporations uniformly go along with it also (and note these people who are doing most of the virtue signalling are actually a very small group of people who just so happen to congregate on mainstream social media platforms.) Who decides what is virtue signalled? You can't answer that question so you're side of the argument fails. It relies on an absurd premise. And that's not even touching on the hundreds of anomalies and peculiarities within the pandemic narrative.

>>18650931
Its either that or a fascist state because without education the masses are open to extortion by the rich elites which will propagate their evil vices in the name of profit.
And yes the state can do the same thing that the rich elites do so that is why the perfect consumer is the key to a healthy free society with a market of subjective value.

>>18650929
This is where it gets subjective. Does the Mona Lisa provide value? It's just a painting of a bitch people like to gaze at. When you describe it that way, it's not much different than Belle. What about a nude model working for an art school?

I actually kind of agree with you but I think if we're gonna go your route we need to go all the way. Just come right out and ban all new art and media. Which is, actually, pretty much what Socrates advocates in The Republic. Unfortunately I don't think we should hold our breaths until it gets implemented :(

>>18650954
How is it possible that so many people rickroll each other? Memes are gonna meme. Ok, you're a big media exec and you see everyone losing their minds and anyone who speaks the truth gets ostracized. What are you gonna do? You could speak the truth, and be ostracized yourself. Look at Trump. He basically was levelheaded and right about covid all along and he was fuckin' broken on the wheel for it. And he was POTUS. Now say you're some youtube celeb, epidemiologist, facebook mod, or college dean. When you've seen what the mob does to the fuckin President if he speaks against the meme, what are you going to do? You'd be like a cattle trying to stop and rationally explain to the other cattle why it's not in their best interests to stampede

>>18649661
You are trying to imply that capitalitst society rewards value, talent and merti but this is simply not true.
If you have value ------> you will be rewarded
if you are rewarded -------> you had value
Both of these don't apply in capitilitst sociery, Most rich people are rich because they inherited wealth, the added nothing of value to society. Most people who added value to society have no wealth, engineers, talented artists, mathematician, physicists.

Cpaitalist society is furthest from meritocracy as a society can be.

>>18651009
Nothing wrong with inherited wealth. If I cure cancer and the world's like "OMG we owe you so much what do you want in return" and I'm like "treat my kids and my grandkids well", wtf is wrong with that?

>engineers, talented artists, mathematician, physicists
They get fairly compensated for the value they provide. Engineering for example is a good ladder into the middle class. Sure there are lots of starving artists/mathematicians/physicists but that just means they didn't provide much value. Mathematics is actually a very interesting example. People don't realize how much low-hanging fruit there is in math, it's easy as fuck to prove new theorems once you know some basics. If some well-meaning ruler came out and declared every new theorem would be rewarded with a $10k stipend, or whatever, that would be exploited to the fuckin hilt. There would be mathematician sweatshops pumping out useless theorems day and night. Just like anything else, you need a market to decide what's valuable and what isn't. Most mathematics, physics, art is NOT very valuable.

>>18651042
If you cure cancer you will not have wealth, the rich jew who owns pharmaceutical company you work for, will.
The guy who invented Directx is a poor middle class nobody and he has provided more value to society than anyone of us can imagine.

>>18651009
The inheritance they received came from a family member that added value to the market that family member acquired wealth by adding value to the market and the wealth he acquired is his alone so he decides what to do with it, if he want to give it to a family member even if that person doesnt deserve it by your standards he has every right to do so.
Just being an engineer, artist, mathematician etc doesnt mean you are adding value to the market because it is subjective.
A janitor might be of higher value than a engineer if the markets subjectivity decides.

>>18651009
This
>>18650958
Personally I dont engage in any kind of utopian thinking. Capitalism is shit but so will be the next system. We live in the Iron Age (Kali Yuga for the hinduboos) after all. I hate materialistic systems more just because they damage the eviroment so much (look up the destruction of the Aral sea by the Soviets if you think its just capitalists).
If capitalism has anything going for it its the scoial mobility it provides. Im from the Balkans and through wageslaving, investing and some e commerce in my early twenties I was able to acrew a bit of wealth. Im not retired but I dont work much either and live really well (and have no debt).

>>18651064
Of course if I'm just doing a 9-5 job where I punch random chemicals into the computer all day to see if they cure cancer...
and I'm only doing this because Mr. Shekelstein pays me $120k/year to do it...
and I happen to get lucky and one of the combinations I punch in is the cancer cure...
Then yes, in this example, Shekelstein deserves the credit and the glory. If you disagree then you are poisoned by Marxist brainwashing

>>18649585
>studies
Filtered

>>18649661
Why are Evolafags so dumb?

>>18649661
the post that killed /lit/

>>18651094
>If capitalism has anything going for it its the scoial mobility it provides. Im from the Balkans and through wageslaving, investing and some e commerce in my early twenties I was able to acrew a bit of wealth. Im not retired but I dont work much either and live really well (and have no debt).
Congrats bro. I'm in a similar boat, comfy-as-fuck desk job (I'm technically on the clock right fucking now, lol. getting paid bank to shitpost on the chans).

>damage the environment
This is a meme. Ever flown in an airplane? Ever notice how if you look out the window, virtually everything is undeveloped land? Doesn't matter if you're in fucking Taiwan, the tiniest island in the world. It's still almost all undeveloped land. If you were watching from outer space when we all launched all our nukes at each other, you MIGHT see a few tiny specks of light. That's how insignificant we are.

>>18651135
he provided for you the infrastructure, machines, and operations as stipulated by the contract you agreed to work for him in exchangen to be paid a wage. he unironically deserves the credit, for without his resources and risktaking your knowledge would be worthless

>>18651199
Yep, exactly. People don't understand how the world works. If you want all the credit for curing cancer, then go into your garage and try to cure it. Good luck. If you want a comfy salary and benefits from a research lab after the government subsidized your education, and then you happen to luck into curing cancer, don't cry when your boss gets the credit and all you get is the paycheck you agreed to pursue the cancer cure in exchange for.

>>18651174
LOL I've never even read Evola I just thought it's a funny image so I saved it.
>The year of our lord 2021
>Reading anything that hasn't survived the test of time for at least 500 years
>ngmi

>>18651178
Thank you I'm so honored

>>18651199
>>18651228
the only way to provide value is to be rich and the only way to be rich is to be born rich.
You have revealed that Capitalism is just feudalism in disguise. If you grow crop/cure cancer, you don't deserve reward, shiekelberg/ lord deserves reward for allowing you to cure caner/grow crop

>>18649661
You are one stupid bastard

>>18649585
There is gradation to ruption of wellness; exploitation destroys the soul of the exploiter, regardless of socioeconomic status, and/or temporary profit.

>>18650498
Please end it.
But we can keep the reddit servers for faggots like you.

>>18649661
>rich people are good because UHHHH the current system necessitates

>>18651253
This capitalists are no different than the noble class.

>>18651253
yes. i think you are beginning to understand, but refuse to accept the truth. all forms of government is feudalism in some form: even after a so called socialist revolution, a new elite class will rule over you with bureauceacy and quotas instead of marketing and advertisement. This is the natural order of things. It takes a great man to move up, but many will be where they are for good reason and many come down due to poor life choices

pro tip: look up the cancer research rates. most are pure money sinks going nowhere. Yet the reseacher has a secured wage and no capital risk if the research doesn't get enough funding from other capital revenue stream. A company can easily go bankrupt outside its control, a person not so much

seethe more

>>18650929
Belle Delphine is to a wife what a sophist is to a philosopher. A swindler faking the form with no content.

>>18651253
>fail to provide value, fail to grow rich
>cope by whining about how only the rich can provide value and get rich
Take any rich person and either he climbed his way up, or his father did, or his grandfather, etc. Most of the time, you don't have to go back a whole lot of generations to find the guy ancestor who was dirt poor. Hell, I myself was born dirt poor and now I consider myself rich. I'm not mega-rich like no servants or anything, but I'm comfortable and my children will never have to worry about going hungry. All thanks to capitalism and the providence of God.
GET *clap* A *clap* JOB

>>18651285
Not just cancer, almost ALL research in ALL areas is money sink.

But nope, it's sooooo tragic and unfair that some autistic kid devoting his life to studying 3rd degree Fourier solutions to the Bell-Legendre equation in Q-space, isn't valued as highly by society as Elon Musk is

>>18649585
Where's the contradiction?

>>18651228
>I've never even read Evola
explains alot

>>18651327
Most rich people are not Musk, Most rich people have no talents, they can't sing, aren't smart, they are not athletic, they can't program, they've never come with decent idea in their lives.
Most people with talents are not rich, simple as. Capitalism does not reward talent or hard work, Capitalism only rewards capitalists.

awful fucking thread. read more plato, nigger

>>18651285
Glad you agree that capitalism does not reward talent or hard work.
>>18651295
>anecdotes.

>>18651369
Actually if you're talking aristocratic, old-money type rich, virtually 100% of those guys will have been brought up in very elite prep schools and consequently they generally CAN sing, ARE smart, ARE athletic, and DO have decent ideas. They might or might not be able to program, considering that's more a blue collar thing to do.

Sorry to spoil all the tropes and cliches of fat stupid pigs wearing suits. Life isn't a kid's cartoon.

Now ask yourself. When shit's serious and you need decisions made fast, who should you have make those decisions? The guy who went to the elite prep schools and spent his life getting elite as fuck? Or Billy Jimbo the incel who spends his time watching anime and posting on 4chan? Oh nooooez am I guilty of elitism and evil white patriarchal logic??

>>18650249
You can't really establish a moral basis on subjective desire

>>18651369
>>18651382
it does not reward talent or hard work no, but it does reward making good decisions, which require neither. Even a talentless and lazy trust fund baby still needs to put in some thought in his actions to not lose all of his grandfathers wealth in an instant. A hard working construction worker is worth nothing if all he builds are not profitable, and a talented artist is worth nothing if people find no value in his work i.e. he creates dogshit art pieces when that one guy literally sold a banana peel or something because he found a way to express value in it to prospective clients

basically stop posting loser cope

>>18651412
Most people who go to ''elite prep schools'' can't sing, aren't smart, they are not athletic, they can't program

>>18649585
>who undeniably exploit the poor
proof

And he is right. I am the proof.

>>18651437
>it does reward making good decisions
No it doesn't. 99% of people have no decision to make in the first place. and 99% of rich people did not make good decisions, unless they decided who gave birth to them

>>18651468
>be super richfag
>literally your servants have servants
>buy your kids the best education money can buy
>it apparently doesn't teach them anything at all really, according to >>18651468
Well gosh, you should open a business where you go explain to ultra-rich parents why those private schools are a waste of money and they should send their kids to Martin Luther King Jr. High School instead. Call yourself an "education school consultant" and charge $1000/hr

>>18650589
>You're the one who implied that those workers would have spontaneously gotten together and decided to do that work if said capitalist hadn't organized them together to do it.
This is objectively true. Look at the free software movement nigger.

I will conclude this thread for idiots.
there are 2 course of life under capitalism.

Born middle class family ------> regardless of ability or hardwork you stay middle class.

Born to rich family ------> congratulations!! you won!!

>>18651496
the job of an entrepreneur is exclusively to make decisions -- to find value, amplify it, make it scale, and give it to the masses and he convinces more and more people that its a good idea. Watch Shark Tank. making decisions is ultimately a labor of the mind, not body, and clearly beyond your comprehension as a mere worker drone. stay poor

>>18651544
>All women are whores
This is objectively true. Look at your mother

>>18651575
the ultimate skill in entrepreneurship is to be born to a family of entrepreneurs.

>>18651544
Man I wish you were right, I really do. I recently needed to buy a new laptop and went with a Linux one, top-of-the-line.

It fucking sucked.

Bitches couldn't program a proper trackpad driver if their lives depended on it. Bitches can't do scrollbars, hoverovers, menus... basic shit... it's the clown league.

I really tried, I honestly did. And I'm not computer illiterate or anything. I bent over backwards trying to get that shit to be tolerable or MAKE myself tolerate it.

Free software movement is Dead On Arrival and it's just proof of everything I've been saying in this thread. Put a bunch of hippies in a commune with no grownups in charge and all they're going to produce is a bunch of literal human waste.

>>18651572
more accurately:

Born with a closed, whiny mind about the supposed unfairness of this world -----> continue to be miserable in pure slave morality

Born open to the challenges and opportunities of this world, to take advantage of its unfairness and express dominance of your life -----> winner

pro tip: neither of these require talent or hard work, only the ambition and determination to take risk and rise above temporary losses

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_TGLqFK_RM

Wow all these hardworkers giving value to society

>>18651589
yes, since you would have good entrepreneurship genes. But those genes had to start somewhere and that someone could be anyone

>>18651619
>entrepreneurship genes
good! I don't have to argue with you anymore.

>>18651619
>entrepreneurship genes

>>18649585
>conflates happiness and virtue
yeah dunno, great point, well thought out

>>18651611
>overwhelming majority of answers fall into business, legal, finance, technology and medical as one would expect
what did he mean by this

>>18651611
I guess this settles the debate, speaks louder than any dishonest arguement here.

Reminder don't be sad because you lost, it's not your fault, the game was rigged from the start.

>>18651625
>>18651630
yes you can have a genetic predisposition towards risktaking. on a simpler level, theres basic hereditary elements like being born tall, assertive, with good features etc.

sorry if you're a genelet

>>18651662
Is this your final cope? You are a loser becuase you don't have "entrepreneurship genes"? Is this really the hill you want to die on?

I didn’t realize most of /lit/ is comprised of bioleninist fags. You guys do realize you’re on 4chan right? Reddit is probably a better home for you. This thread is the best example of sour grapes. Let me quote Plato - “ If you’re so smart then why aren’t you rich? Turns out you’re fucking stupid.”

>>18651669
its a contributing factor, this cannot be denied. but again even a chad can make bad decisions in life. success is a combination of many things

if all you've taken from my argument is now genes, remain defeatist i suppose

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPF6UJAP7R4

All these people giving so much value to society. If only I had worked harder, If only I had given to society, Capitalism would have rewarded me!

>>18651692
>first link disproves my own point, better cherrypick a better clip!
how disingenuous

>>18651696
The only people of value that get rewarded under capitalism are doctors and only in the U.S

>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxkR-LYtvXQ

So much value to society!

>>18651605
What's a "Linux laptop" when it's at home

Don't let people discourage you /lit/ the game was rigged from the start. Better luck in the afterlife

>>18651713
cope

>>18651722
>>18651692
>>18651611
Most of these people provide way more value to society than the average engineer.

>>18651722
>>18651692
>>18651611
How do these videos make you fell my fellow anons? Would you happily shoot these people in the upcoming revolution?

imagine basing your entire worldview on envy instead of admiration in wanting to do the same as they have

>>18649661
best post in the thread

>>18649661
What a fucking ideology-driven NPC. And it's people like you who call common sense propaganda.

>>18650486
>I'm so virtuous and moral and ethical
>That is why I favor summary executions without trial for my political opponents

>>18651042
>Nothing wrong with inherited wealth
It absolutely is, when having a certain amount of wealth makes it increasingly easier to obtain more wealth (without "producing value" yourself)

>>18651199
>his risktaking
Such a meme, if this person has enough excess wealth to already secure a a life without money troubles
Where is the risk? I don't see it.

>>18651768
I'dd argue that they damage society
but I'm not mentally ill

>>18649661
What value does a stock broker bring to the world? What value does the landlord bring to the world?

>>18651851
>do the same as they have
Being born into wealth? You drooling retarded bootlicker.
(my envy is not directed towards rich people I perceive as actually having earned it)

>>18650486
You are such a fucking mental child.
Switching from objective "added value to the world", but then value is suddenly subjective
you don't add subjective value to the world like that, it wouldn't even need exchange, you can just have people perceive it into being

If you give me the greatest blowjob in the history of time, it brings me a fantastic amount of please, like 100 billion pleasure-units (more pleasure than 3 years of USA's national gross pleasure product, GPP)
Did you add value to the world? Does amount of value added depend on if I feel like paying you or not? Of course not, it's after the fact of the "value being added to the world".
How could I ever pay you what I really owe?

>>18650312
Define value, your shitty post is built around you deliberately choosing a different definition

>>18653356
>What value does a stock broker bring to the world?
Ideally, and I'm holding a positively naïve outlook here, the stockbroker allocates resources to where they are best spent to produce value (that is his skill)

>>18653356
I assume you're teenaged, because the answers are apparent, but I'll help you out.
A stock broker is just a salesmen. He brokers the deal between stock seller and stock buyer. The people who have stock to offer don't have all day to find buyers of their stock, so they broker is the intermediary who does that work for them so that the shares can exchange hands. They are literally no different than a retail outfit selling the manufacturer's goods, and their utility is as obvious as a retailer's.

As for landlords, they provide housing on a short-term basis for people who are unable to afford owning and outright buying a home. Imagine just for one second if you could never rent where you live. Literally tens of thousands of people would have no where to live because they would be stuck between the rock of homelessness and the hard place of needing 10-20 thousand dollars for a down payment on a house.

This shit is basic, and you could easily derive the utility and value of either if you just took a moment and thought before blathering out your stupid words.

We need to save this thread for all of eternity.

I think we have finally isolated and boiled down the ideology (and rhetorical strategies) of the Last Man to it's most sickeningly pure form. Something we can all, far right or far left, agree is just retarded. Time to actually add some (objective!) value to the world by making sure these ideas are thoroughly and forever discarded. I mean some kind of systematic analysis and discrediting of each and every assumption, lemma, and argument that is being made here. Good luck!

>>18653462
>He brokers the deal between stock seller and stock buyer.
What value do THEY add to the world? midwit.
>Imagine just for one second if you could never rent where you live. Literally tens of thousands of people would have no where to live because they would be stuck between the rock of homelessness and the hard place of needing 10-20 thousand dollars for a down payment on a house.
Truly, there is no other alternative.

A sweatshop factory owner deserves whatever output of his factory he can hold on to, because he graciously puts the facilities of his factory to the disposition of his workers, allowing them to work there?

I never understand why that logic only works one-way.
The factory is worthless without people to working it. The factory owner did not produce the people working in it, does not provide the infrastructure for them to exit in.
Maybe you don't believe government, police, schools, army, roads, yadda-yadda is necessary for a factory.
A factory is also worthless if there are no people to buy it's products.

Nobody exists in a vacuum.
I simply don't understand why you would think it's such a given for the factory owner to draw a line in the sand around his factory and claim he earned what is being produced within the circle

>>18651605
>computer illiterate
>complains that their illiteracy is the responsibility and failure of others
just admit you were socially engineered into believing that being tech illiterate is a virtue in the same way sjws were engineered in believing victims of oppression is a virtue.

>>18653462
> they would be stuck between the rock of homelessness and the hard place of needing 10-20 thousand dollars for a down payment on a house
Or they could just get free housing, and the landlord should get a real job. Radical notion, I know.

>>18653499
>What value do THEY add to the world? midwit.
He literally spelled it out for you
Unless you suddenly want to take a stance where utility is not value, I mean, it's all buzzwords to you, you can assign any meaning you want to them

>>18653537
What value do THEY (read: the stock seller and stock buyer) bring to the world? Nitwit.

>>18651611
a car is a sign of wealth, not proof of wealth why is so many of the those presenting shit in the thread ignorant of logical fallacies and honest debate.... mother fuckers need a /debate literature general/ at this point since every 4th thread devolves into this subpare /pol/tardedness

>>18653527
>free

>>18653462
>landlord "provides" housing
>it would be impossible for anyone to occupy that space if it was not for the landlords will
>the landlord sustains the existence of that piece of housing, and it would be impossible for it to exist without him

EVERY. SINGLE. RELATION. You mentioned is contingent, by that I mean it only exists in people's minds as a sort of mental overlay onto the real world. A landlord doesn't "provide" housing because that housing exists regardless of him. Without that landlord housing could still be provided, if someone were to just, y'know, move in. All he does is collect rent, and he has a legal framework of titles to legitimize that rent collection and state violence to enforce it. Take either of those two away and suddenly he provides nothing at all. Same for the stock broker, who just manages different imaginary titles people believe they are buying and selling. Nothing PHYSICAL, nothing REAL, just ideas in peoples heads. If I were to convince everyone that those titles were illegitimate, or didn't exist at all, they would suddenly cease to exist.

>>18653537
See above

>>18649661
Incomplete. Money is a representation of power, acquired by having others depend on you. The rich become rich either by adding value to the world, pretending that they will do so, or making other depend on them, i.e consummerism, totalitarianism.
Its our duty to invoke and enlighten the mass to spot and discard all parasites from the society

>>18653546
Imagine you got this great new upstart idea, but it needs capital to be realized.
Luckily there is this guy that invested some capital into your brilliant value producing enterprise, in exchange for a sock in it, enabling you to produce more value.

He then takes this investment and shows it to a bunch of people, among them is another guy that is truly able to recognize the value of your idea.
He then buys this stock for, by definition, real value. Enabling you to produce EVEN more value.

Too abstract? Do only concrete thing count as value?

(This also works in reverse, btw. If your enterprise is shit, the stock will decrease in value)

>>18653589
Do you think houses spring into existence from nothing?

>>18653604
value != power. it is used to obtain power. when you conflate the two you begin to assign meaning in a idealistic way and ignore contradicting evidence.

>>18653609
it's most likely too abstract for the common person to comprehend. thus why base line values will always come back to requirements for survival in any form

>>18649661

>>18653609
What about if I borrow the sock from you, for a tiny fee, promising to return it a later date
Then sell the sock to another guy(this guy is a sucker), letting him hold on to it for while
Then I use the newspaper (which I also own), to spread all kinds of negative rumors and lies about your sock, causing it to decrease in value
the day of returning your sock arrives, so I head our to buy the sock, or an in identical sock
luckily for me, my scheming paid off, people now think your sock stinks, and I'm able to buy one for cheap
I then return the sock to you, and keep the differential between what I had to pay now, and what I sold it to the sucker for earlier

What value did I produce?
Keep in mind, the sock is perfectly fine, the things I said about it was not actually true.

>>18653680
you forgot to say what is "essential" ...

>>18653644
I said money is a representation of power. More money = more access to society's resource. If it is not power then what else?

>>18649585
He was not being profound; he was just a bottom.

>>18653777
power is power, retard

>>18653777
Not who you're responding to. Power is power retard. Jeff Bezos is not the most powerful man in the world, he's probably not even in the top 100. Elon Musk wanted to kill one of his employees and do you know what he did? He sent him a warehouse and called in an active shooter threat on him. Does that sound like what a truly powerful man does, or does that sound like something Tony-who-owns-3-Cadillac-dealerships would be able to do if one of his workers pissed him off? Money can get you power and vice versa but don't conflate them.

>>18649585
You are equating being morally good and being happy. Although Socrates does believe that true happiness comes from being morally good, that happiness doesn't necessarily come immediately. It is very important here to notice that pursuing immediate, terrestrial happiness through evil acts is not the same as pursuing true happiness according to Socrates.

The perfect example of this is Socrates' death. According to your logic, Socrates would have been happier had he fled prison and went into exile; which he COULD have done if he wished to. But instead, Socrates willingly chose to stay in prison and wait for his death. This proves that indeed according to Socrates being virtuous is more important than doing the selfish thing.

Now, the question is: according to Socrates, how come virtuous people usually seem to have worse lives than selfish people?

To answer this question, you have to consider the very important fact that according to Socrates the soul is immortal. This means that being happy here and now is pretty much irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. According to Socrates, after you die you first undergo a sort of purgatory for variably long time and then are reincarnated. That reincarnation isn't random; instead, your next life will be more pleasant if you have been virtuous and good. Likewise, if your previous life was full of perversity and evil, then your next life won't feel very nice. It's not the same system as karma exactly (Socrates never formulated a karmic system), but the Myth of Er gives us an example (which Socrates doesn't clearly state to be the truth but believes MIGHT be the truth) where the dead pick their new life one after the other, those who were virtuous picking first. Regardless of how it exactly works, it's obviously not something that the studies you mentioned would account for.

Another massively important answer to the same question is mysticism. Even if you do not believe in reincarnation, Socrates' system still works because according to him true happiness is unity with the idea of Good. In neoplatonician terms (which isn't directly Socrates' terms but remains a reasonable interpretation of his system), true happiness means being closer to the One. The closer to Good you are, the more you feel detached from earthly things. It is extremely important here to notice that according to Socrates material things aren't the source of happiness, but rather are the opposite, the source of suffering. If you are to be truly happy, you have to become a sage and contemplate the ultimate metaphysical beauty of the One. A truly happy being is necessarily living an ascetic life of mystical contemplation, wisdom and virtue. Again, I think this is extremely different from how the studies you mentioned define and measure happiness.

>>18653887
Beautiful post anon!

I went through a ton of shit after quitting my old business, but now I do a line of work I'm MUCH more proud of. My kid even helps me with my new business by loading my printer tray when it's low.

I could never show my kid my former profession.

Thanks again for the post, it's great!

>>18653802
>>18653810
oh, I'm sorry didn't realize I was talking to rich and powerful anons with experience and training from the rothchilds. surely money = power and power = money and monetary systems never collapse. i'll invest in crypto tulips right away since it'll turn me into the next stray bezos lapdog to sit right next to the biden/clinto puppets on the shelf of elite toys.

>>18653810
Bezos, Musk, et al, are not rich.
They play billionaires on the teevee, but they themselves own nothing. They're wagies like you and me.